Is this murder? Watch whole vid. Shooting/murder? is at 4:40. Was the victim a real threat to cops? Cops claim man had knife. But man threw threw knife at cop car at 3:16 of the video. Dash cam vid shows folding knife bounce off hood. Just seems maybe a taser would have served better here.
Published on Sep 21, 2016
Dashcam shows mentally-ill man shot 14 times as he flees Sacramento police
Sacramento police have released three dashcam videos and one surveillance video which show the pursuit and killing of 50-year-old Joseph Mann, who was shot 14 times by police.
Video and audio recordings were released by Sacramento Police Chief Sam Somers on Tuesday after mounting pressure from the mayor, members of the city council and Mann’s family, who called for more information surrounding the July 11 shooting.
In this day of camera's police agencies really need to up their l-t-l game or they will all be broke.
I can see police rules of engagement being changes to require the positive identification of a firearm etc. not just a "shooting stance" before lethal force is permitted. If departments don't start using their head a bit more things will get a lot worse for cops before they get any better.
In this day of camera's police agencies really need to up their l-t-l game or they will all be broke.
I can see police rules of engagement being changes to require the positive identification of a firearm etc. not just a "shooting stance" before lethal force is permitted. If departments don't start using their head a bit more things will get a lot worse for cops before they get any better.
A "shooting stance", with anything in the suspect's hands, is a perceived threat - and the cops don't exactly have the time to ask the suspect if that is a "real gun".
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
AND, for the record, I DO believe there are some "bad shoots" Hope I'm NEVER involved in a shoot - much less a bad one! These decisions than are made in less than a second, maybe in milli-seconds.
The Police in the USA make about 1500 arrests every day for violent crimes plus probably 25,000-30,000 more arrests every day for just regular crimes.
It shows a lot of restraint & professionalism on the part of the Police that they only shoot & kill about 1.2 people a day on average when they are dealing with that many miscreants.
It seems to be trendy for the news & social media to go after the cops every time they cap some miscreants ass.
Sounded like 12 shots to me, unless a couple were fired at the same time.
The guy appeared to me to be seriously crack or meth delusional. Totally fried. Seen enough crispy critter crackheads to fill a stadium. Meth isn't really the drug of choice here. So have no idea of what that looks like.
Long story short, if a cop says put down the knife, put down the knife.. unless you're planning on taking 6 or 7 of them on with said knife and they're all holding Glock 23's... which could indeed be called suicide by cop.
If a cop has a gun and you have a gun, either shoot the cop or drop your gun.
Even if you drop it there's a chance he'll shoot you anyway, but if you just stand there with it, it's for damn sure he will shoot. He might not hit you, but he will shoot.
If a cop has a gun and you don't........ why don't you?
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
How would you detain someone having a "mental episode" without "placing yourself there"?
They can't sit around and watch the guy until he falls asleep.
I'm not a cop, and therefore not knowledgeable on police policies and doctrines. Ask me how to fix a pair of eyeglasses, and I'm your man. That being said, I'd ask our LEO's what the actual policy is for shoot/don't shoot.
The man consistently disobeyed officer's orders. Yes, he threw somethig at the cruiser. I couldn't tell if it was a knife, or what it was. By refusing to do as instructed, HE escalated the situation to the point where the foot pursuit ensued. Did he have a second weapon in hand? I sure couldn't tell from the video.
What sucks is he had any number of chances to comply with the officer's orders, and he chose not to. 'Seems like simple compliance would have prevented all this.
two solutions for all these cop shootings. One would be to just disarm cops, and give them soft rubber truncheons. The other would be for folks to stop doing stupid things in front of cops.
two solutions for all these cop shootings. One would be to just disarm cops, and give them soft rubber truncheons. The other would be for folks to stop doing stupid things in front of cops.
Simple solution because life is full of choices, even to keep the unruly among us from being shot or killed by LE:
Choice #1. Don't commit criminal acts Choice #2. If you choose to commit a crime, obey LE orders when they show up. Save the arguments for court. Choice #3. Don't have a weapon in your hand when LE show up Choice #4. Stay alive if you choose the above and go peacefully to jail Choice #5. If you don't choose #4, then choose to have violence visited upon you, maybe even get shot
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get it, because it's pretty simple especially if your parents taught you to respect authority. But THAT is another story ...
If the police are going to continue these unjustified shooting then they need to trash these dash and body cams so they can tell the story the way they want it to be heard
Choice #1. Don't commit criminal acts Choice #2. If you choose to commit a crime, obey LE orders when they show up. Save the arguments for court. Choice #3. Don't have a weapon in your hand when LE show up Choice #4. Stay alive if you choose the above and go peacefully to jail Choice #5. If you don't choose #4, then choose to have violence visited upon you, maybe even get shot
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get it, because it's pretty simple especially if your parents taught you to respect authority. But THAT is another story ...
That sounds great in theory, but do you really want to teach your kids to blindly obey whoever is in authority?
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
Choice #1. Don't commit criminal acts Choice #2. If you choose to commit a crime, obey LE orders when they show up. Save the arguments for court. Choice #3. Don't have a weapon in your hand when LE show up Choice #4. Stay alive if you choose the above and go peacefully to jail Choice #5. If you don't choose #4, then choose to have violence visited upon you, maybe even get shot
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get it, because it's pretty simple especially if your parents taught you to respect authority. But THAT is another story ...
That sounds great in theory, but do you really want to teach your kids to blindly obey whoever is in authority?
Because I don't.
Travis
If your kids have threatened other people with a knife and the popo shows up would you suggest they do?
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
They did the pubic a favor...
Some times you will find that there are some small little quirks, in playing God.
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
How would you detain someone having a "mental episode" without "placing yourself there"?
They can't sit around and watch the guy until he falls asleep.
Why didn't the first cop just run him down with the car, he was clearly in the street and disobeying the cop?
Do you know any one with sugar, or any mental disorder such as autism? Their are times that either are reasons for delusional behavior, but certainly not a reason for a death sentence.
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
They did the pubic a favor...
Some times you will find that there are some small little quirks, in playing God.
Yes...I think the guy that got shot finally might have figured that out.
FWIW, the cops were called because he'd been threatening other people in the area with his knife...that area in particular was once a pretty nice place to live, now it's a hotbed of cranksters, crackheads, whores and homeless.
They ran at him, to shoot him, the idiot that shot him jumped out of the car and ran over to shoot the man, time was not of the essences, no one was in danger until they he placed him self there.
They did the pubic a favor...
Some times you will find that there are some small little quirks, in playing God.
Yes...I think the guy that got shot finally might have figured that out.
FWIW, the cops were called because he'd been threatening other people in the area with his knife...that area in particular was once a pretty nice place to live, now it's a hotbed of cranksters, crackheads, whores and homeless.
Yes they do...but since the ACLU fought (and won) for the "rights" of the mentally ill to not be institutionalized against their will, we now have to live with the consequences of that decision...this guy and the guy that got shot in El Cajone (San Diego) the other day are prime examples of "unintended consequences"...
Choice #1. Don't commit criminal acts Choice #2. If you choose to commit a crime, obey LE orders when they show up. Save the arguments for court. Choice #3. Don't have a weapon in your hand when LE show up Choice #4. Stay alive if you choose the above and go peacefully to jail Choice #5. If you don't choose #4, then choose to have violence visited upon you, maybe even get shot
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get it, because it's pretty simple especially if your parents taught you to respect authority. But THAT is another story ...
That sounds great in theory, but do you really want to teach your kids to blindly obey whoever is in authority?
Because I don't.
Travis
Travis-I respect your opinions, but if the option is planning a funeral for my son, I'd tell him to do as ordered by the police.
Deadly force is authorized by LEO if they reasonably believe the subject poses a significant threat of bodily injury or death to themselves or others.
A significant threat is not unreasonble.
A reasonable threat is an objective standard, which means that the threat has to be imminent and deadly. It also means that an ordinary prudent person would also have to agree that it was needed at that very moment to prevent serious bodily injury or death to the cop. I saw no imminent threat on that video. Words alone are insufficient. There must be a means of causing serious injury presented to the cop in a threatening manner at that very moment. Unarmed disparity of force is sufficient, but there was too much space between the deceased and the cops for this threat to be imminent without a firearm or other deadly projectile type weapon in the hand, and prepared to deploy in a deadly manner.
Deadly force is authorized by LEO if they reasonably believe the subject poses a significant threat of bodily injury or death to themselves or others.
A significant threat is not unreasonble.
A reasonable threat is an objective standard, which means that the threat has to be imminent and deadly. It also means that an ordinary prudent person would also have to agree that it was needed at that very moment to prevent serious bodily injury or death to the cop. I saw no imminent threat on that video.
I guess since he wasn't driving a pickup truck while you were walking your dog he should get a pass? OTOH, he WAS wild eyed and acting crazy...
I'm not gonna 2nd guess the cops shooting his crazy ass. They aren't paid to get stabbed, shot, beat to hell...they had good reason to put him down on the spot. What if he had gotten away for a short time & killed or stabbed somebody? I'm totally good with them shooting anybody acting like that SOB...whether it was caused by drugs or mental illness makes no difference to me...he was a threat to public safety and was dealt with accordingly.
"A man was fatally shot by two Sacramento police officers Monday morning after he acted “really crazy” and charged the offices with a knife, police said.
The man, who was in his 50s or 60s, was spotted about 9:25 a.m. waving a knife in the 1100 block of Lochbrae Road when police were called to investigate, according to Sacramento police Sgt. Bryce Heinlein.
Callers complained to a police dispatcher that the man was not making sense and was behaving irrationally.
When the first officer arrived on the scene, the man charged at him, prompting the officer to lock himself in his police cruiser. The officer called for backup and tried to leave the area, but the man walked around the police cruiser and blocked it with his body. When two backup officers arrived, the man with a knife took off running. The officers began chasing him on foot, and one of them suffered a non-life-threatening injury to his lower body during the pursuit, according to police.
Heinlein said the man refused to comply with the officers’ commands and acted “really crazy.”
When the officers approached the man, he turned around and charged at them, Heinlein said. At that moment, both officers fired their weapons, striking the man.
The man was taken to an area hospital, where he died later Monday morning. The injured officer remained in the hospital for treatment."
The actual standard for LE is that of a how reasonable LEO (not a citizen) would act, with the information he had at the time he made the decision, given his prior training, general orders, state law and specific agency regulation(s) that apply if any. Additionally, the same elements to justify lethal force by a citizen with respect to imminent death or grievous bodily harm to the LEO also apply. Prevention of grievous bodily harm (eg, permanent disfigurement or physical or mental impairment, etc), justify the use of lethal force, if needed to stop the threat. This is not just limited to the prevention of lethal injury.
A requirement that the suspect be armed, BTW, is not part of the justification for the use of lethal force by either LEOs or citizens involved in a SD situation.
Another distinction between the justification for the use of lethal force by LE, not a citizen, is the prevention of lethal or grievous harm to the public in general. This is the reason that an LEO is justified in engaging in a pursuit of a fleeing criminal, if he believes the criminal still poses a threat to others beyond the LEO himself. In this case, the failure of the subject to drop the knife when ordered and his ongoing flight from LEOs, could reasonable be argued to fall in this category.
I believe most of us on the Fire are philosophically of a strongly libertarian mindset in our advocacy of individual rights. However, let's not forget that the vast majority of LE OIS take place in the course of the commission of a felonious act - in this case, the reported prior threat with the knife constitutes the use of lethal force, or at the very least aggravated assumption by the violator against the neighborhood kids, so his shooting fits the general pattern. Pointing a firearm at a person or use of a knife as a threat if the other elements are presebnt, constitutes lethal force by the offending criminal.
Also, given about 900K LEOs in the US, assuming only 2% deploy lethal force, that adds up to about 18,000 OIS events annually. Nowhere near that many OIS deaths per year, so the argument that LE is out to "murder suspects" is worse than misguided and groundless. Perspective is important, moreso than raw emotion in judging the facts.
"A man was fatally shot by two Sacramento police officers Monday morning after he acted “really crazy” and charged the offices with a knife, police said.
The man, who was in his 50s or 60s, was spotted about 9:25 a.m. waving a knife in the 1100 block of Lochbrae Road when police were called to investigate, according to Sacramento police Sgt. Bryce Heinlein.
Callers complained to a police dispatcher that the man was not making sense and was behaving irrationally.
When the first officer arrived on the scene, the man charged at him, prompting the officer to lock himself in his police cruiser. The officer called for backup and tried to leave the area, but the man walked around the police cruiser and blocked it with his body. When two backup officers arrived, the man with a knife took off running. The officers began chasing him on foot, and one of them suffered a non-life-threatening injury to his lower body during the pursuit, according to police.
Heinlein said the man refused to comply with the officers’ commands and acted “really crazy.”
When the officers approached the man, he turned around and charged at them, Heinlein said. At that moment, both officers fired their weapons, striking the man.
The man was taken to an area hospital, where he died later Monday morning. The injured officer remained in the hospital for treatment."
The actual standard for LE is that of a how reasonable LEO (not a citizen) would act, with the information he had at the time he made the decision, given his prior training, general orders, state law and specific agency regulation(s) that apply if any.
That's a recent corruption in our law, created by the courts in order to make the job of police forces easier and less risky. Permitting cops to be judged by the standard of the reasonable cop, however, rather than by that of the reasonable and prudent person, is akin to permitting KKK members, who have just murdered a black man for dating a white woman, to be judged by the standard of the reasonable KKK member. It permits the development a good old boy network standard in the law, the old "us vs them" culture. We're witnessing the natural and unavoidable outcome of that change in legal standard.
The actual standard for LE is that of a how reasonable LEO (not a citizen) would act, with the information he had at the time he made the decision, given his prior training, general orders, state law and specific agency regulation(s) that apply if any.
That's a recent corruption in our law, created by the courts in order to make the job of police forces easier and less risky. Permitting cops to be judged by the standard of the reasonable cop, however, rather than by that of the reasonable and prudent person, is akin to permitting KKK members, who have just murdered a black man for dating a white woman, to be judged by the standard of the reasonable KKK member. It permits the development a good old boy network standard in the law, the old "us vs them" culture. We're witnessing the natural and unavoidable outcome of that change in legal standard.
That's rich...comparing cops to the KKK...TFF.
I'm pretty sure most police shootings are reviewed and investigated by the local LE chief and then forwarded to the local DA for additional scrutiny...might there be a tendency to err on the side of LE??? Sure...and I'm glad it works the way it does...if it didn't, can you imagine anybody wanting to step up to the plate in keeping the schittbirds in check???
Keep living in your make believe world that the cops are the bad guys...
Too bad you missed your true calling...I'm thinking a career at the ACLU would have been a better fit for you and most certainly a better fit for the kids you teach.
Keep living in your make believe world that the cops are the bad guys...
That's not at all what I believe. The point I was making is that judging people, when the question is whether a homicide is justified, only by the standard of their club's view of reasonableness, doesn't tend to result in justice. Police tend to look out for their own. It's only human nature. Therefore you cannot allow them to investigate themselves and you cannot only hold them to their own standards in judging their conduct with the rest of us. Certainly you can see how that would become a problem.
I'm pretty sure most police shootings are reviewed and investigated by the local LE chief and then forwarded to the local DA for additional scrutiny...might there be a tendency to err on the side of LE???
Choice #1. Don't commit criminal acts Choice #2. If you choose to commit a crime, obey LE orders when they show up. Save the arguments for court. Choice #3. Don't have a weapon in your hand when LE show up Choice #4. Stay alive if you choose the above and go peacefully to jail Choice #5. If you don't choose #4, then choose to have violence visited upon you, maybe even get shot
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get it, because it's pretty simple especially if your parents taught you to respect authority. But THAT is another story ...
That sounds great in theory, but do you really want to teach your kids to blindly obey whoever is in authority?
Because I don't.
Travis
If your kids have threatened other people with a knife and the popo shows up would you suggest they do?
The actual standard for LE is that of a how reasonable LEO (not a citizen) would act, with the information he had at the time he made the decision, given his prior training, general orders, state law and specific agency regulation(s) that apply if any.
That's a recent corruption in our law, created by the courts in order to make the job of police forces easier and less risky. Permitting cops to be judged by the standard of the reasonable cop, however, rather than by that of the reasonable and prudent person, is akin to permitting KKK members, who have just murdered a black man for dating a white woman, to be judged by the standard of the reasonable KKK member. It permits the development a good old boy network standard in the law, the old "us vs them" culture. We're witnessing the natural and unavoidable outcome of that change in legal standard.
The actual standard for LE is that of a how reasonable LEO (not a citizen) would act, with the information he had at the time he made the decision, given his prior training, general orders, state law and specific agency regulation(s) that apply if any.
That's a recent corruption in our law, created by the courts in order to make the job of police forces easier and less risky. Permitting cops to be judged by the standard of the reasonable cop, however, rather than by that of the reasonable and prudent person, is akin to permitting KKK members, who have just murdered a black man for dating a white woman, to be judged by the standard of the reasonable KKK member. It permits the development a good old boy network standard in the law, the old "us vs them" culture. We're witnessing the natural and unavoidable outcome of that change in legal standard.
If your comments weren't so outrageously ridiculous on their own, I'd say something more than that.
Easier and less risky? When did you last put on the uniform and answer calls at 2:30 am, without knowing what waits in that car, inside the house or the surrounds? I would try to make a reasonable argument to persuade you away from the ridiculous position you've taken. I'll just say that one of the few things I'll agree with Lincoln on is this advice I'll offer you on this topic, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt."
Nuff said. Call a hippie next time your cookies are burning in the oven instead of dialing 911, AGAIN. Have a safe and peachy day, TRH.
"A man was fatally shot by two Sacramento police officers Monday morning after he acted “really crazy” and charged the offices with a knife, police said.
The man, who was in his 50s or 60s, was spotted about 9:25 a.m. waving a knife in the 1100 block of Lochbrae Road when police were called to investigate, according to Sacramento police Sgt. Bryce Heinlein.
Callers complained to a police dispatcher that the man was not making sense and was behaving irrationally.
When the first officer arrived on the scene, the man charged at him, prompting the officer to lock himself in his police cruiser. The officer called for backup and tried to leave the area, but the man walked around the police cruiser and blocked it with his body. When two backup officers arrived, the man with a knife took off running. The officers began chasing him on foot, and one of them suffered a non-life-threatening injury to his lower body during the pursuit, according to police.
Heinlein said the man refused to comply with the officers’ commands and acted “really crazy.”
When the officers approached the man, he turned around and charged at them, Heinlein said. At that moment, both officers fired their weapons, striking the man.
The man was taken to an area hospital, where he died later Monday morning. The injured officer remained in the hospital for treatment."
"A man was fatally shot by two Sacramento police officers Monday morning after he acted “really crazy” and charged the offices with a knife, police said.
The man, who was in his 50s or 60s, was spotted about 9:25 a.m. waving a knife in the 1100 block of Lochbrae Road when police were called to investigate, according to Sacramento police Sgt. Bryce Heinlein.
Callers complained to a police dispatcher that the man was not making sense and was behaving irrationally.
When the first officer arrived on the scene, the man charged at him, prompting the officer to lock himself in his police cruiser. The officer called for backup and tried to leave the area, but the man walked around the police cruiser and blocked it with his body. When two backup officers arrived, the man with a knife took off running. The officers began chasing him on foot, and one of them suffered a non-life-threatening injury to his lower body during the pursuit, according to police.
Heinlein said the man refused to comply with the officers’ commands and acted “really crazy.”
When the officers approached the man, he turned around and charged at them, Heinlein said. At that moment, both officers fired their weapons, striking the man.
The man was taken to an area hospital, where he died later Monday morning. The injured officer remained in the hospital for treatment."
Keep living in your make believe world that the cops are the bad guys...
That's not at all what I believe. The point I was making is that judging people, when the question is whether a homicide is justified, only by the standard of their club's view of reasonableness, doesn't tend to result in justice. Police tend to look out for their own. It's only human nature.
I don't see it as a problem because other cops (for the most part) are really the only ones who can relate to "heat of the moment" situations that result in a shooting...and even then, it's really easy to second guess a situation from the safety of a video screen...as for them looking out for their own??? I don't know...maybe to a point, but outright murder??? I think not.
IMHO there should be more and the standard for capitol punishment needs to be lowered...the older I get, the less tolerant I am of unacceptable behavior.
I'm actually a supporter of police in general. You folks must be hypersensitive or something to have so misunderstood my posts as to take them as anti-cop. I'm just opposed to cops being held to a lower standard on murder than I would be.
So would it be a patriotic thing to do, for armed citizens to help the tax payers out by removing these undesirable folks from our streets or is this an idea that only cops are properly trained in the act of undesirable elimination?
I'm not a cop, and therefore not knowledgeable on police policies and doctrines. Ask me how to fix a pair of eyeglasses, and I'm your man. That being said, I'd ask our LEO's what the actual policy is for shoot/don't shoot.
The man consistently disobeyed officer's orders. Yes, he threw somethig at the cruiser. I couldn't tell if it was a knife, or what it was. By refusing to do as instructed, HE escalated the situation to the point where the foot pursuit ensued. Did he have a second weapon in hand? I sure couldn't tell from the video.
What sucks is he had any number of chances to comply with the officer's orders, and he chose not to. 'Seems like simple compliance would have prevented all this.
I understand all this and don't disagree until it becomes a fatal shooting.
I think that the prevailing culture of local LE has changed a lot over the last 20 or so years and it's causing decisions to be made that cast doubt as to the willingness of many LEs to protect us even if they're in harms way.
It reminds me of Andy & Barney. Too many Barneys running around and nowhere near enough Andys.
So would it be a patriotic thing to do, for armed citizens to help the tax payers out by removing these undesirable folks from our streets or is this an idea that only cops are properly trained in the act of undesirable elimination?
Just looking to clear this up a bit.
Patriotic??? I doubt I'd go that far...the bar for a non-LEO taking these schittbirds out should be lowered to "morally justified".
So would it be a patriotic thing to do, for armed citizens to help the tax payers out by removing these undesirable folks from our streets or is this an idea that only cops are properly trained in the act of undesirable elimination?
Just looking to clear this up a bit.
Good question and correctly worded. Lets see if some of these yahoos can answer it seriously.
And when these "black lives matter" activist, build fires and block state and Federal highways with bodies and bone fires, that certainly put more than a few lives in jeopardy, the proper response would be to take out as many as possible for not following the cops orders to disband ?
Or are there different grades of "police commands" that can, and do, justify the shooting on sight of these citizens who for some reason choose to be non respondents?
I'm actually a supporter of police in general. You folks must be hypersensitive or something to have so misunderstood my posts as to take them as anti-cop. I'm just opposed to cops being held to a lower standard on murder than I would be.
I don't take your posts as anti-anything. They're simply inaccurate.
And when these "black lives matter" activist, build fires and block state and Federal highways with bodies and bone fires, that certainly put more than a few lives in jeopardy, the proper response would be to take out as many as possible for not following the cops orders to disband ?
Or are there different grades of "police commands" that can, and do, justify the shooting on sight of these citizens who for some reason choose to be non respondents?
Police can shoot threats that pose, or appear to pose a deadly threat.
I'm actually a supporter of police in general. You folks must be hypersensitive or something to have so misunderstood my posts as to take them as anti-cop. I'm just opposed to cops being held to a lower standard on murder than I would be.
I don't take your posts as anti-anything. They're simply inaccurate.
So, it is fair to abbreviate that the mentally ill and drug addled are subject to summary execution at the discretion of beat cops?
Amazing how many of these fatal shoots involve mental ill or addicts on high. Years ago society decided that it was unconstitutional to house them. Those who objected to the housing would rather they be killed on the streets by each other or place the burden on the street officers.
Appears the liberal solution of release has created a much larger problem on society. They now have their right to die by sucide by others. GW
