This topic came up in a discussion elsewhere today. I'm curious about your thoughts. Hornady says they melt downrange. http://www.hornady.com/store/ELD-X My personal experience collection ballistic tips from the entrance side of wound channels and various target media disagrees with this to a degree. What say you?

Supposedly the tip is different on the ELD bullets and they don't melt. There is some talk about the older style plastic tips melting. But I've not seen anything to confirm that.

IIRC Hornady was getting down range speed data from their older plastic tipped bullets that didn't match the numbers they expected. The "theory" was that the plastic tips were melting and changing the bullets BC's after they left the muzzle. I don't know that they ever proved that, but it was the best explanation they could come up with. They changed the plastic tips on the ELD's to correct this.

At least that is my understanding. I could be wrong.

I doubt you could detect the level of deformation they claim occurs by looking at a bullet you just pumped into an ungulate.



Dave

I've found the green tips from Balistic Tips in the backstop.

Melting depends on muzzle velocity.

The race cars may have to worry. Under 3300-3400 fps, not so much.

I remember when the 17 Remington came out. They claimed the lead would melt and remain molten in the metal jacket until impact.

Consider also that there's downrange, and then there's downrange.

Your bullet covers what we consider downrange in less than one second. Not nearly enough time to transfer heat from the jacket/ core to the tip, or for atmospheric friction drag to create much heat, either.

A mile or two downrange may be different.

With material like that a manufacturer would have quite a bit of control over the heat effects. The Hornady site seems to tout that ability as a significant accomplishment.

I expect we will see some examples of recovered tips in perfect condition here soon.

I'm calling this "melting" of tips 100% hogwash!!!

High speed camera at target distance would settle this pretty quick.

In this thread we find out who has shot poly tipped bullets at long range and who has not.

Yes the tips melt but it takes a G1 BC over .500 and a muzzle velocity over 3000fps and a time of flight over .8 seconds, give or take.

Not really a factor for most hunters but the effect is real and been understood for years by those who tend to shoot a bit at extended distance.

exactly

Hornady would have been better off not explaining schit and just changing the tips.

Then the internet wouldn't have exploded with all the closet rocket scientists.




Dave

Very interesting. Can't say that I've exceeded that, but have come close.

But I've too found tips in the dirt, in animals too.

And I can say this, if you take a tip off a 75 amax thats running around 2900 or so FPS, its going to hit the 6 ring at 600 not the x ring, so I'd think if they were melting, there would be other evidence. But again maybe not enough BC or MV there at all. Maybe if I ever get a 6x22 built...

I did run some Nosler E tips out of the 7x300wtby though messing around and shot a couple of animals with it, certainly over 3000 fps..not sure the G1 though and found tips in 2 of those animals.. they were neat OD green tips is how I recall..

I think math already answered the question.




Travis

Great to see your name again.

I've ever shot an animal at anything like the ranges necessary to see this so I couldn't care less about it though I do like the idea of an AMax with an Interlock ring.

I just get within 500 yards....then IDGAF. Even Corelokts work then.

Controversy has paid off for a good many people lately...until January 20th showed up!

From Hornady:

"Hornady has not taken the possibility of other factors being the cause of the measured increase in drag lightly. Years of testing and evaluation were conducted
to ensure the cause and solution to the observed behavior. Hornady has, and commonly can see the effects of Alpha (Yaw) causing an increase in Cd (Drag Coefficient).

However, if it was an increase in Alpha causing the higher measured Cd values it would be present in every test, in every barrel, under every launch condition, and this is
simply not the case . Although it (Yaw) is present in certain combinations of conditions, it definitely is not present all the time.

The increase in Cd observed due to aerodynamic heating and the increase in meplat diameter is seen in every test with an applicable bullet
(high enough BC), velocity, and ambient air temperature. As is described in the document, taking the exact same projectiles made sequentially
with Heatshield Tips and then with the original tip material, loading them in the same cartridge with the same load, and firing out of the same rifle
sequentially on radar shows the reduction in Cd with the Heatshield Tip technology and the predictable increase in Cd seen with the original tip material.
This has also been observed from a point of impact standpoint of shooters in the field. The ELD-Match has less drop and wind than it’s equal predecessor in the A-MAX
in the same conditions with the same load".



people have said:

"There simply isn't enough time to soak through the specific heat capacity of conventional BT material and thus raise temperature beyond its stable limit"

yet those people have not proven that what Hornady claims isn't happening.

But think of all the other fun things we could do with an ultra-slo mo camera

Same atmosphere that creates meteorites, melts tips, under certain conditions. Friction between air and object's surface.

It's also the reason that Santa can't exist, scientifically, even if he had the power to travel fast enough to get around the world in one night.

Sorry, Defalve.

Was flyin' along one day nosing around in other folks bidness when one of them poked a couple holes in my chopper. One of the bullets took out the radio wire bundle in the nose, then punched a hole thru the right rudder pedal. Wound up spinning on the cockpit floor like an angry little bee. Picked it up when it settled down and it was just a little north of warm, but nothing I couldn't tolerate. Came from an AK, so the velocity wasn't great, and the range was short. They do warm up, but I don't know Hornady's claim to be valid or not. Barrel friction, aerodynamic friction...I dunno.

I found the same, but odd-shaped, in patty sausage. Seems it went thru the grinder and ended up there.

Well Hornady does love to poke Nosler in the eye from time to time.

Add to that Hornady can now start to charge close to VLD prices for the improved bullets.

Getting poly tipped bullets to run at time of flights exceeding a full second is a good thing for LR competition as it adds options.

Lil Fish seems infatuated by the ELDs and ELD-Xs even though he will never actually shoot anything beyond the reach of a good ol Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Good for the industry.

Watch the video and see for yourself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07tseYJUvHA

In the initial discussion from whence this question arises, it descended into claims that the tip completely melts away leaving only the hollowpoint bullet.

Thanks, John. I don't shoot within the parameters which you outline above. Which would explain the differences in experience. From the videos you've posted over the years, you're slinging lead significantly farther than even have the opportunity to do.

It doesn't melt away it just becomes altered and that results in the projectile's BC changing as it gets further downrange.

Not an issue for most folks but their V and A Max lines are marketed toward precision so I have no issue with them changing things up.

I don't think the ELD's are much more expensive regardless. But I've yet to bulk order any so I could be wrong.



Dave

Eat schit and die.



Clark

You're gay.




Dave

Math is hard. Video is ea...Squirrel!

I tried some 162 ELD-X in my 7mm-08, which has a 1 in 9" PacNor barrel. Meh, it likes ballistic tips a lot better. I have some .30 cal 200's, I guess we'll see if the RUM likes them.

LOL.

Most all game shooting it's a moot point.

The increased interest in PRS type shooting and LR game shooting has found that poly tips need a bit of toughing up when really stretching thing.

Options are good and for most the standard poly tips work fine as far as flight characteristics.

Now the fact poly tipped open a bit fast is a whole different discussion.

Who's the press secretary?!? Josh or Jay?

BTs have a much blunter tangent ogive which is more forgiving of throat geometry.

162 ELD_Xs won't have a problem in a 9 twist but won't tolerate an off center or overly blunt throat as well as the tangent ogive of the BT.

If the BTs are working well then take yes for and answer and rock on.

Just looking at Graf and Son's web site, to place an order...

Hornady is changing all sorts of stuff... a 73 grain ELX instead of a 75 A Max... plus there is a big 'sale' on 80 grain A Maxes....and they are 'out of stock' on an 80 EL something...

Even today, ya better choose wisely on bullet choice when loading for the .17R.. I've had a couple come apart in the air maybe 20 feet from the muzzle when I first started reloading for it.. The G-forces from spinning a bullet at 4,000 fps MUST be unreal...

which bullet was coming unglued?




Dave

Honestly wish I could remember exactly - but I think they were Hornady HPs.. I found a box from '98 that I had loaded.. The rest are all V-Max and seem to be ok..

Thought it might have been some Sierras, but that's not the case..

Bullets with thin jackets can come apart because the barrel starts to get rough from erosion at the throat. I had this happen with 6mm 70 grain bullets going only about 3200 fps. Had to rebarrel.

This barrel has had less than 500 rounds down the bore..

And it sure is fun to see gophers blow up on arrival..

My 17Rem routinely vaporized Bergers but not the V-Maxes with the same load.

Are these factory barrels you guys are using?




Dave

The V-Max has been fine - that's what I've been using now..

It is on mine... Original Rem M700 (GASP!) BDL that I bought back in late '97 or early '98.. It's been quite accurate since day one..

Yup--off shelf 700Classic.

sst

I actually spent some time reviewing the original report from Hornady that led to them going to a more heat resistant polymer. I think they got it right in their discription of the tips deforming in flight as they heated up. The fact that the decrease in BC stopped when they went to a higher melting point polymer pretty much proves the point.

I have already seen ads from another bullet manufacturer claiming that their polymer tips are just as heat resistant as the new hornady tips.I don't know if they have recently changed to keep up or not.

shoot bergers problem solved.........

It's funny, because the guy that started the conversation was trying to figure out how to get cleaning media out of the tip of his Berger VLD. (He apparently tumbled them after loading?) The comment of "Well, since plastic tips all melt away during flight, I would think the media would just burn up and not be an issue."

I thought I"d read somewhere that the new tips come with a new bullet and new ogive design?

If thats the case nothign has been proven.

Keep the same bullet, but switch tips only, then you can prove something as long as the shape of the tip and weight of the tip is all the same, just a tougher tip.

Jeff,

They did that when testing the new poly.

It is a marketing decision to keep the new poly only in the new bullet line.

I have seen them shoot at 1K with repeated groups of 10 shots with 4" vertical or less. The doppler radar tested proved something was happening and the change to a higher temp fixed the problem.

That's odd those .17's were coming apart. I've shot everything in multiple rifle since the mid-90's and never had any issues.

I know Carmichael had reports of some of the original Remington stuff being too thin, but that was 70's era stuff.





Travis

A .17 cal SST?




Dave

Hornady doesn't make a .17 SST..

Very good to hear that. Then its a proven for sure.

I"d wondered about that years ago but never had issues, and as you see by posts, likely never quite hit the right area, plus if the degradation was consistent, one would have never known... not by my simple use of results based shooting.

Had a Pac-Nor bbl Ruger #1 with Kepplinger trigger, put 3 105 Amax = first production runs, in UNDER 1/2" @330 yds in that 6BR. No sign of melting per target In fact, it may have at 200 yds on a spine shot I made on a buck, but moments later at 400 yds I double lunged a buck and it held up just fine

Seriously, never had an issue, shot sub-half inch groups at 200 yds in a 260 with 130 AB and another Stiller actioned 6BR shot 1/4" at 200 yds......oh and there was a Dakota Predator I had that would put 3 95BTs in a 1/2" all day at 200 yds....

Nope, no trouble IME.