http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...le-marine-unit-destroy-the-roman-empire/


It was a hypothetical question that became a long online discussion and now a movie in development: Could a small group of heavily armed modern-day Marines take down the Roman Empire at its height?



Getty Mark Ralston
By Alyson Sheppard
Oct 31, 2011

2.3k

James Erwin was browsing Reddit on his lunch break when a thread piqued his interest. A user called The_Quiet_Earth had posed the question: "Could I destroy the entire Roman Empire during the reign of Augustus if I traveled back in time with a modern U.S. Marine infantry battalion or MEU?"

The question struck a chord with the 37-year-old Erwin, a technical writer from Des Moines, Iowa, who happened to be finishing a book called The Encyclopedia of U.S. Military Actions (Through Facts on File). Erwin tells PM that he wasn't impressed by other users' early attempts to answer this question, and so, posting under the username Prufrock451, he came up with his own response. Erwin wrote a 350-word short story chronicling the fictitious 35th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU), which suddenly disappears from modern-day Kabul and reappears on the Tiber River in 23 B.C. Erwin posted the piece, finished his meal, and went back to work.

After work, Erwin checked reddit. Thousands of users had read his post and they demanded more. Excited and overwhelmed, Erwin continued submitting pieces of this growing Internet phenomenon. The next day, Los Angeles–based management firm Madhouse Entertainment contacted him about representation. Within the week, after Erwin had put just more than 3500 words to screen, Warner Brothers Studios bought the movie rights.

Erwin's story, which he titled Rome, Sweet Rome, has a cult following among reddit members, its own subreddit on the site, and has inspired fan music and art. But from the beginning, his posts received comments critiquing the accuracy of his conjured tale. Other redditors commented. Historians commented. Marines commented. "You can definitely tell that the story was something that I dashed out on my lunch hour without doing a lot of research beforehand," says Erwin, an encyclopedia writer and two-time Jeopardy! champ. "Any Marine is going to see mistakes in it, and I'm sure if there were Romans around, they'd say the same thing." He plans on doing intensive technical research during the screenwriting process.

So—disregarding troubling questions about time travel and just why some temporally displaced Marines would feel compelled to destroy an empire——could a single MEU destroy the Roman Empire? To sort through the flood of online responses, PM talked to a Roman military expert and found out how the two sides would line up.
Infantry

An MEU typically contains about 2200 troops, along with their artillery and vehicles. According to Erwin's original reddit story (which will be altered for the movie), the Marines are transported back in time with what they have with them, including M1 Abrams battle tanks, bulletproof vests, M4 rifles, and grenades.

The year Erwin chose (23 B.C.) falls in the reign of Augustus, great-nephew of Julius Caesar and considered the first Roman emperor. His legions numbered nearly 330,000 men. They wore heavy leather and metal armor, carried swords and javelins, and operated catapults. They would have never heard the sound of an explosion before. "Obviously, there is a massive difference in firepower," says Roman military expert and author Adrian Goldsworthy. "Not only would Roman armor be useless against a rifle round—let alone a grenade launcher or a .50 caliber machine gun—it would probably distort the bullet's shape and make the wound worse."

Trajan's Column, Rome
Getty

In the reddit story, however, Erwin said the Marines would not be resupplied with bullets, batteries, or gasoline from the modern world. "There would be no way of obtaining replacements for these supplies in the ancient world," Goldsworthy says. "An average unit of Marines is not likely to be able to make an oil refinery, start generating electricity, or create machine tools to make spare parts for equipment." And even if they could figure it out, it would take many months or even years. So, as soon as the Marines ran out of gas, their tanks would become little more than hunks of metal.

"In the short term and in the open, modern infantry could massacre any ancient soldiers at little risk to themselves," Goldsworthy says. "But you could not support modern infantry. So all of these weapons and vehicles could make a brief, dramatic, and even devastating appearance, but would very quickly become useless. Probably in a matter of days."
Reinforcements

Erwin's reddit story stipulates that no more Marines will come back in time, although they may recruit in the ancient world. The Marines would have to; even at their lowest periods, the Roman Empire could conscript hundreds of thousands of soldiers whenever it wanted.

"A Roman centurion would say 'Let's take 1000 of these guys. Five hundred of them don't come back? Get another 500 guys,'" Erwin says. "Americans have never been very good at sending people out as cannon fodder. Marines are better trained and are much harder to replace. No Marine sees himself as a cog, and no Marine is."

Both sides pride themselves on having competent leaders down to the smallest unit level. Goldsworthy says the battle would depend on who had the better officers. Erwin believes it would be shock and awe versus numbers.

"Marines are the best warriors ever trained," he says. "But they can't fight an endless wave of soldiers. No one can."
Tactics

The Roman legions and Marines are both highly trained with a clear unit structure and hierarchy of command. They emphasize aggression, dominating the opponent, unit cohesion, and being flexible on the ground. "It's easy to arrange people like chess pieces and march them in a direction," Erwin says. "But when you've got basically huge gangs of people going toward each other at knifepoint, it's very hard to maintain a plan. So they have to improvise."

Romans depended on intimidation to psych out their opponents. They marched in unison and appeared as big and conspicuous as possible, overlapping shields to protect each other from attack. But wearing bright colors and lining up straight isn't going to do much good against a unit of Marines, who would be best off attacking guerilla-style while the Romans marched.

One advantage for the Marines: a knowledge of military history. The Marines would know from Rome's history that its legions could be susceptible to ambushes, such as the one that led to their crushing defeat at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. The Marines would have serious disadvantages such as navigation, Goldsworthy says. Besides losing all satellite navigation, their modern maps would be practically useless—everything from the course of rivers to the placement of forests would be different. But, at least in their first encounters with the Marines, the Romans probably wouldn't know that.

Getty

The key for the Marines would be to stay on the move and avoid getting bogged down in one place. If they stood still, Goldsworthy says, the Romans could easily surround them and then take advantage of their huge numbers advantage. The Romans would probably use a variety of nasty siege weapons on the Marines, such as the scorpion, a large crossbow that rapidly fired long bolts. Romans were also known to cut off opponents from water and food supplies, forcing them to surrender or die.
Who Would Win?

Historian Goldsworthy says the MEU would probably lose in the long term—without the ability to resupply their modern weapons, they simply wouldn't be able to overcome the Roman numbers. However, he says, they could destabilize the Roman Empire, encourage civil war, and initiate regional fracturing. "[The Marines] might discredit the Emperor by defeating the closest army to Rome," he says. "But they would lack the numbers to control Rome itself—with a population of a million or so—let alone the wider empire."

What about in the film? Erwin says he knows the ending, but won't reveal it anytime soon. He's currently on leave from his technical writing job to work on the screenplay full-time. A release date for the film version of Rome, Sweet Rome, or what it will be called, is still unknown

"God is on the side of the army with the most artillery."

The USMC would win if they could penetrate to the heart of the Empire and capture or kill the Emporer, in short order. Otherwise, the superior numbers would eventually win out, unless the superstitious primitives believed them to be aliens or whatnot and ran.

I've always enjoyed this concept in science fiction. Island in the Sea of Time was a good book along these lines. Only criticism I have for it, and most others like it, is the authors taking the opportunity to insert their leftist political opinions into it, so you have a hero in the book being a black, butch, lesbian woman, and heterosexual while males taking many of the villain roles. Eventually, this novel got so thick with this crap that I put it down and haven't picked it up again, but I love the general theme of modern people being thrust back in time and having to cope and interact with ancient folks.

Look how Cortés conquered the entire Aztec empire with just a few hundred men armed with matchlock muskets, pikes, swords, and a few canons.

If the Marines succeeded in destabilizing the Roman Empire, they would disrupt the history of the next 2000 years, including who got married to whom, and maybe they would even kill their great great great etc. grandparents. In short, they could never get born and thus could never get back to 23 BC in the first place.

If Rome fell in 23 BC, what would replace it? Almost certainly that area would not have become Christianized in the 300s (AD). Western Europe would never exist, at least as we know it, and probably no United Stated of America would have been founded in 1776. Ergo no Marine Corps.

Kind of a pet theory/fantasy of mine, except I keep wondering how a single company of modern Infantry - Army or Marines - with a supporting heavy weapons platoon would fare against 10,000 Orcs at the Battle of Helm's Deep.

But it all boils down to logistics. Modern troops would massacre anybody up to and including Napolean's forces until they ran out of ammo, after which they have nothing but unwieldy clubs and piss poor spears.

There would be plenty of good spears and swords laying all about them.

True, but now they're a badly outnumbered force - really badly outnumbered - untrained in those weapons fighting against people who mastered those weapons in their early teens.


I read a short story many years ago about an MP who was suddenly transported back to a viking village. After the initial shock he figured he would be king pretty soon because of his pistol and modern knowledge.

However, they considered him very unimpressive. He couldn't row for 20 minutes before his hands got blistered, he knew nothing of sailing or plowing or blacksmithing or anything useful, and while he was in good shape he couldn't barely pick up and swing a sword more than a few seconds before he got tired. They were amused at his neat tricks of fighting where he threw a man over his shoulder (judo), but while his thunder maker (.45 sidearm) exhibited nicer work than any of their blacksmiths could produce and was loud it couldn't kill any further than a good spear throw. Eventually he pissed off someone and they chased him into the hills. He killed a few of them with his .45 but when his thunder maker stopped he was easily killed with a sword.

Remember the Twilight Zone episode where a tank crew, along with their tank, was transported back to Custer's Last Stand, while on a training mission? The tank ran out of gas while tooling around, lost in the desert (before they realized they were back in time). Only after abandoning the tank and going on foot did they begin to realize they had traveled back. Then they came upon the battle. All they had were their .45s, so they racked one in the chamber and headed to Custer's side. That's when it ended.

PS That was when Custer was still considered a good-guy historical figure in the US, before political correctness had set in.

A MEU would roll right through the Roman empire. What would the Romans do against 155 howitzers, M1 tanks, Cobra gunships, and Harriers dropping JDAM's?

Heck, a standard infantry platoon could likely take over the Roman Empire given an unlimited supply of ammunition.

Edit: I just reread the original premise and it says there would be no resupply of anything, fuel, ammo, etc. That would change things a bit, but not by much. The Marines would just take Rome itself, which would only take a few hours, and the rest would fall quickly.

"All they had were their .45's."

I seem to remember M-1 carbines too!

Couldn't the Romans darken the sky with falling arrows at some point?

How do they get the unlimited ammo? That's the whole rub, they only have what they have with them at the time.

Once the gas is gone the planes and choppers are grounded and the tanks are scrap or at best pretty good stationary forts, and once the ammo is depleted the troops revert to unarmored (for the day), poorly armed troops trained in totally different tactics that would be pretty useless against a cohesive Roman legion.

Granted they would slaughter, and I mean absolutely slaughter, anyone they met before that but unless they can kill over 300,000 people they would eventually lose.

I remember that one, the implication being that they died in the battle along with Custer's troops.

I heard tell that Shrapnel is still out there with a metal detector trying to find their tank...

This. What kind of logistics 'trail' could the Jarheads have? If, they could have a 'train' as long as Alexander was reputed to have in his campaigns, the Marines would slaughter 'em in days or perhaps, weeks.

Once the Marines defeated Rome, or substantially changed its course, they would go back to fighting Muslims 600 years in the future.

If the Marines destroyed the Muslim pigs in the first millennium we'd not be dealing with them today.

If I remember my history correctly Rome ceased to exist when their aqueducts were destroyed, no water=no people. A few Marines could have easily destroyed their aqueducts.

There would be plenty of good spears and swords laying all about them. [/quote]

Ah! Would the Marines have the training to use spears and swords? I don't think so. I don't mean to denigrate our Marines of this time or any other time. However, you need to have constant training to use a sword effectively. The muscles need constant working. Ditto for the shield. It's one thing to pick up a Roman Gladius and shield. It's another thing entirely to be effective in combat with it.

The neat thing about timelines is, how do we know someone didn’t go back and alter time? Whatever history we know now is the only history we know. Originally the Renaissance occurred in 800 AD, the atomic bomb was created around 1100, nuclear weapons and delivery systems proliferated, assisted by the Chinese who had advanced their rocket technology to approximately a V2 level, and the Pope ordered a nuclear strike against Saladin who responded in kind, devastating the world. In 1580 Ahnold Schwarzenegger’s tribe in the wastelands of what never was Austria discovered a time machine, went back to 750 and changed everything to what we know today.

Yeah, I know, put down the bong. Speaking of, the bong was originally created in 1214 but a time traveler went back...

One other thing I want to add.

I just finished the official history of Guadacanal as well as a history of the US Navy in WWII. One thing that struck me was the ability of the Marines to resupply themselves. It's all part of a remarkable system. Sure, we know Marines are superior killers and work well at the tip of the spear, but behind that is a very flexible and resourceful logistics system that is built to resupply the front line.

Cutting off the chance for resupply really puts a Marine at a disadvantage. On Guadacanal, where the ammunition was able to flow, the Marines were able to fend off superior Japanese forces that were willing to die in suicide charges.

If you want to read a great alternative history novel pick up a copy of "Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove.

Modern South Africans travel in time to arm the Confederacy with AK-47's and lots of ammo.

The Romans have always fascinated me, we like to think of gladiators and orgies but they were fantastic engineers and organizers. Kind of makes you wonder what happened to their Italian descendants?

But anyway, a new recruit would have about 6 months of training and a good part of that was hours and hours and hours of practicing with a wooden sword that was about twice the weight of a gladius. That and marching, marching, marching which hasn't changed all that much. I didn’t know this but the idea behind the close fighting was that a soldier held off the man in front of him with his shield but reached between the shields to stab the enemy immediately to his right, not the one directly in front of him. Not sure what the guy on the extreme right flank did...

I’m sure that varied with opportunity, if you can cut off a hand or foot go for it no matter where it is, but it was kind of a foretelling of the buzzsaw tactic where modern soldiers behind a berm angle their fire off to the left and right while remaining protected from direct frontal fire.

Yes! And I want those Marines stationed on the coast of my homeland, England. When those Roman bastards tried to land, blow 'em out of the water.
It was all downhill for my Celtic ancestors after the Romans took over.

The marines would probably destabilize the empire and reach so sort of peace with various factions. Within 50 to 75 years or less, the Romans would be driving their own tanks and airplanes.

It is a mystery that has never been completely answered as to why the Romans never had an industrial revolution. They were sufficiently advance to have one and in many ways more advanced than the Europeans were in the 18th Century when the Industrial Revolution began. And consider that from the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution to WW II with automatic weapons, tanks and airplanes was only one hundred and fifty years. It is safe assume that with advanced examples on hand, and spurred by the knowledge of what was possible that the Roman Industrial Revolution would be even more rapid.

Fuel would be easy as the Romans already knew of distillation. They would simply have to apply it to the tar bubbling up from the surface in Arabia. Black powder would be easy enough as well. And they had plenty of coal and iron ore.

So while your average Marine might not be able to build an oil refinery, make gunpowder, or set up a Bessamer furnace, they had sufficient knowledge to point the Romans in the right direction and Roman technology was sufficiently advanced to take the ball and run once they knew what was possible.

The best theory I've heard on why the Romans didn't get more industrialized was that they had no need to reduce labor. They had slaves a plenty and unlimited manpower.

It would be fun to play around with a computer simulated scenario of what it would take to turn the tide of a battle. For example, how many AR's and how much ammo would it have taken to turn the tide at the Little Bighorn?

While I’m on a roll, I was always a bit disappointed with the opening battle sequence of “Gladiator” where the fight descends into a melee immediately. They march in order okay but then everything goes helter skelter.

In a typical engagement the soldiers would fling their pilum (or pila) just as the enemy got within range, maybe 30 yards away. This is the spear with the long lead tip. It would embed itself in the enemy’s shields, or any that missed would have their soft tips bent and be useless for throwing back. With a spear stuck in his shield and enemy had difficulty wielding it effectively or a legionnaire could step on the spear and drag down the man’s shield.

But organization with the key to their tactics. A barroom brawl such as depicted in Gladiator meant something had gone very wrong.

Or, being Marines, the Roman world 50 years later would have 10 times more bars and whorehouses.


Just kidding. Love you guys. Oo-rah and all...

Because of the necessity of face to face fighting with swords and spears, Roman armies fought in mass. A squad of machine gunners could wipe out a legion of swordsmen in short order as long as they could keep the barrels cool. A few guys lobbing tear gas grenades could immobilize the legion without having to kill them. Of course if they didn't kill them, they'd have to guard and feed them.

Well, let us take the Battle of Alesia in France in 52 BC.
The Romans were led by Cesar, they laid seige to the Celtic fort. But the Romans were outnumbered.
The Romans were held together by the courage and battle tactics of Julius Cesar. He was seen throughout the battle, riding back and forth on his horse. Cesar's red cape was visible throughout the battle.

Just one sniper on the Celtic side to take out the Roman leader and the battle probably would have turned.
If not, that sniper could have just continued to kill each Roman commander. I think the battle would have turned in about an hour.

My limited understanding of quantum physics/mechanics makes me view these sorts of hypotheticals as a waste of time, energy, and pixels.

But it is fun, I have to admit. I enjoy wasting time as much as the next man.

Depends on how many bullets they had

I posted this a while ago but this seems like a good time to repeat it. Time travel would be impossible according to the law of conservation of matter and energy.

If you traveled back in time, the atoms that are part of your makeup right now would have to revert to the eggs or cereal you had for breakfast. Otherwise as you passed back through 7 AM this morning those atoms would exist in two places at once – the eggs and your body. Basically if you stayed in this space time continuum you’d have to play back your life exactly like a movie played backwards. If you kept your consciousness and traveled back further than your current age it would be interesting as you were sucked back into the womb.

If you traveled forward in time you’d look like an immovable statue to those around you in normal time. Over the course of 100 years folks might notice your hand had moved from its position 100 years ago but you wouldn’t just disappear and reappear sometime later. That’s assuming that you traveled in space as well as time.

If you did not, the Earth would be millions or billions of miles away so you’d rematerialize in deep space if not inside some celestial body, causing one hell of an explosion as your atoms and the celestial body’s atoms competed for the exact same space. Or maybe you’d be immediately crushed by this planet if you happened to be on the side of directional travel and it tried to move through you.

You might be able to overcome the conservation of matter and energy law if your atoms and the energy holding them together moved out of this space-time continuum, out of our universe so to speak, and were immediately replaced by an equal mass and energy from whatever universe/plane/dimension you were using as the medium of travel. I’m working on that one but there are just so many alternate universes to choose from...

I read it many years ago. I enjoyed it a great deal till after the South won. Then I thought it got a little boring.

We brought law and civilization to you savages.

Their central government was too powerful to permit that to happen. No one could do anything without permission from the highest authorities, so there was no free market of any kind, which is what's needed for an industrial revolution.

That, too. A convergence of reasons. You need conditions to be just right, and planets perfectly aligned just so, to have an industrial revolution.

That sort of gets to the reason for the loss to begin with, i.e., the Indians had Winchester repeaters with ten round magazines, while the US Cavalry had single shot .45-70 carbines.

And no A-10's, don't forget that...

Or better yet, land a force with Ospreys and attack the Romans as they're getting ready to embark at Boulogne. Add in a Harrier or two to soften them up.

Mind you, my kin didn't need Marines when we met them Teutoburg. We played dirty and hid behind trees.

I doubt there would be any battles...the psychological impact of mortars and shoulder launched rockets along with a couple of .50 cal. machine guns, would have had them thinking the gods had descended...total submission. For the retards that were hell bent on dying, a few ARs would take care of that...for larger numbers, SAWs could be unleashed.

Yes, shaman! You Krauts kicked Roman ass! What a great victory at Teutoburg. Man you set them back, reeling, and they never did conquer Germany.


The damn Romans had their way with us in France, at the Battle of Alesia, and also in England. We had a revolt under Queen Boudicca in London, but it failed. They conquered England and held it for 400 years, but, they never did get Ireland or Scotland.

and the calvary must have been using .380's too, and we know all about that.

and the reason for that is scots are scots, not to be associated with those other types.

Bagpipes are scary...gotta wonder how they came up with THAT idea...

Everything the Scots do is based on a dare, that's why they're so tough.

"Hoot mon, I'm gonna mix up a bunch of foul tasting crap and stick it in a sheep's stomach and dare ya ta eat it!"

"Hoot mon, I'm gonna take the skin of a sheep, stick four pipes in it where the legs useta be and and dare ya ta blow innit and make music!"

Englishman: You're daft!
Irishman: Yer fookin' crazy!
Scotsman: Hoot mon, I'll take ye up on that...

The idea for bagpipes seems to spring up spontaneously among sheepherders. If you have sheep, you have someone trying to blow a sheepskin bladder. In Germany it's called a Sakpfife or Duddlesak

Q: Why do Scotsmen wear kilts?
A: So the sheep don't get scared by the sound of zippers.

See, the way I look at it is similar. You got uncle Fred. He never married. He tended sheep. Nobody wants to get stuck in a room alone with uncle Fred, no you, not the sheep. Now think of that on a larger scale. Imagine a whole army of Freds, blowing their instruments made from sheep bladders. I'd run away as fast as I could.

Then you have the Bulgarians. The Greeks called them Bulgars, because they engaged in backwards (anal) sex. The term buggery comes from the same root. Question: When was the last time someone successfully invaded Bulgaria? I personally wouldn't go there on a bet.

Eventually, they walled Scotland off.

Damned Scots were coming down illegally and taking the jobs Romans wouldn't do.















Sorry, I'm just in a smartass mood today...

Hadrian apparently thought border walls worked.

They got em from The Romans, who got em from The Egyptians.

Or a few M2's at the Alamo.