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Found this link while searching for info on Bloody Jack Sturdivantt. The Sturdivants were a multi-generation criminal gang on the 18th and early 19th Century Frontier. Jim Bowie fought a knife duel with Bloody Jack in 1829, badly wounded him but let him live.

....but for a Frontier nightmare, it would be hard to top Big Harpe and Little Harpe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpe_brothers
They are pretty well known here in East Tennessee. hard to believe human nature could be so utterly rotten. I taught Tennessee history for many years.
Another old west case..

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Charles Kennedy – Old West Serial Killer

A mountain man who lived near Eagle Nest, New Mexico, Kennedy robbed and killed a number of passing travelers as they made their way to Taos.

Charles Kennedy, a big, husky full-bearded man, owned a traveler’s rest on the road between Elizabethtown and Taos. After travelers would register at the rest stop, some would disappear never to be heard from again. These traveling strangers were rarely missed in the highly transient settlement. Evidently, when travelers stopped for a bed and a meal, Charles killed them, stole their valuables and either burned or buried their bodies. These events might never have been known, except for his wife’s confession, when she fled from him in terror in the fall of 1870.

The bleeding Ute Indian woman burst into John Pearson’s saloon, where Clay Allison, Davy Crockett (a nephew of the American frontiersman) and others were whiling away the hours. After she had been helped to a chair, she told the story of how her husband had killed a traveler and their young son. Hysterical, she continued the shocking story telling of how her husband had been luring travelers, perhaps as many as 14, into their cabin and then murdering them. On the day that she fled, she had witnessed another traveler who her husband had enticed inside by offering supper. During the meal, the passerby asked his hosts if there were many Indians around. Her unfortunate son made the fatal mistake of responding, “Can’t you smell the one Papa put under the floor?” At this, Kennedy went into a fury, shot his guest and bashed his son’s head against the fireplace. He then threw both bodies into the cellar, locked his wife in the house and drank himself into a stupor. Terrified, the woman waited until her husband passed out, then climbed up through the chimney and escaped to tell her story.

Clay Allison, a local rancher, who was known for his gunfighting skills, and almost always around when anything violent happened, led a group in search of Kennedy, while others were sent to search the house for evidence to support the woman’s story. The search provided a number of partially charred human bones still burning in the fire, and two skeletons beneath the house. Later, another skull was found nearby and a witness to one of the murders came forth. Kennedy, still drunk, was quickly found and taken into custody. He was given a pre-trial on October 3, 1870, where the witness appeared, testifying that he had seen Kennedy shoot one of the travelers.

The court ordered that Kennedy be held for action by the grand jury, but rumors began circulating that Kennedy’s lawyer was going to buy his freedom. Three days later, Allison and his companions snatched Kennedy from the jail, threw a rope around his neck and dragged him by a horse up and down Main Street until long after he was dead. His body was not allowed by the townspeople to be buried in the Catholic cemetery and was interred outside the cemetery boundaries.

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-charleskennedy/
Few things worse than a white southern loyalist.
Another story that has intrigued me...

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The town this occurred is a watery grave now, as it was flooded, and filled with water when a dam was erected.

Bonito Lake, Lincoln County, NM.

https://hollowhill.com/bonito-city-the-real-story/
Wow, scary guys.

Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Found this link while searching for info on Bloody Jack Sturdivantt. The Sturdivants were a multi-generation criminal gang on the 18th and early 19th Century Frontier. Jim Bowie fought a knife duel with Bloody Jack in 1829, badly wounded him but let him live.

....but for a Frontier nightmare, it would be hard to top Big Harpe and Little Harpe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpe_brothers


Birdwatcher, I believe you probably passed real close to Cave-in-Rock, on the Illinois side of the Ohio River on one of your previous summer time cross country bicycle trips.

Cave-In-Rock: The Mystery Of Illinois’ Most Famous Pirate Hideout (Cave-In-Rock, Illinois)

I've driven past this historical roadside marker countless times that marks where Micajah "Big" Harpe's severed head was displayed.

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Evil lurks in the hearts of men
never travel without a friend

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We are all appalled at the cases of depravity that are reported on the news today, but I bet that if the means to provide the same amount of coverage from our past were available for viewing we would be astounded at what took place in those times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Benders

The Bloody Benders were a family of serial killers who lived and operated in Labette County, Kansas from 1871 to 1873. The family consisted of John Bender; his wife, Elvira Bender; son, John, Jr.; and daughter, Kate. While Bender mythology holds that John Jr. and Kate were brother and sister, contemporary newspapers reported that several of the Benders' neighbors had stated that they claimed to be married, possibly a common law marriage.

It is believed that the Benders killed at least a dozen travelers before their crimes were discovered and the family fled, with their fate uncertain. Much folklore and legend surrounds the Benders, making it difficult to separate fact from fiction.

Background

Following the American Civil War, the U.S. government moved the Osage Indians from Labette County, Kansas to a new Indian Territory located in what would eventually become Oklahoma. The newly vacant land was then made available to homesteaders. In October 1870, five families of spiritualists settled in and around the township of Osage in western Labette County, approximately 7 mi (11 km) northeast of where Cherryvale would be established seven months later. One of the families was John Bender, Sr. and John Bender, Jr., who registered 160 acres (65 ha) of land located adjacent to the Great Osage Trail, which was then the only open road for traveling further west. After a cabin, a barn with corral, and a well were built, in the fall of 1871, Elvira Bender and daughter Kate arrived, and the cabin was divided into two rooms by a canvas wagon-cover. The Benders used the smaller room at the rear for living quarters, while the front room was converted into a "general store" where a few dry goods were sold. The front section also contained the kitchen and dining table, where travelers could stop for a meal or even spend the night. Elvira and Kate Bender also planted a 2-acre (0.81 ha) vegetable garden and apple orchard north of the cabin.[2][3][4]
Bender family

John Bender, Sr. was around sixty years old and spoke very little English. When he did speak it, it was so guttural that it was usually unintelligible. According to the May 23, 1873 edition of The Emporia News, he was identified with the name of William Bender. Elvira Bender, who also allegedly spoke very little English, was 55 years of age and was so unfriendly that her neighbors took to calling her a "she-devil". John Bender, Jr. was around 25 years old, handsome with auburn hair and a mustache, and spoke English fluently but with a German accent. John was prone to laughing aimlessly, which led many to consider him a "half-wit". Kate Bender, who was around 23, was cultivated and attractive and spoke English well with very little accent. A self-proclaimed healer and psychic, she distributed flyers advertising her supernatural powers and her ability to cure illnesses. She also conducted séances and gave lectures on spiritualism, for which she gained notoriety for advocating free love. Kate's popularity became a large attraction for the Benders' inn. Although the elder Benders kept to themselves, Kate and her brother regularly attended Sunday school in nearby Harmony Grove.

The Benders were widely believed to be German immigrants; only the male Benders, however, were born overseas, and they were not actually a family. No documentation or definitive proof of their relationships to one another, or where they were born, has ever been found. John Bender, Sr. was from either Germany or the Netherlands and is thought by some[5] to have been born John Flickinger. According to contemporary newspapers, Elvira was born Almira Hill Mark (often misreported as "Meik") in the Adirondack Mountains; she married Simon Mark, with whom she claimed to have had 12 children. Later, she married William Stephen Griffith. Elvira was suspected of murdering several husbands, but none of these rumors was ever proven. Kate was believed to be Elvira's fifth daughter, born Sarah Eliza Mark; she later married and was known as Sarah Eliza Davis. Based on an inscription in a Bible recovered from the Bender home, it was believed that John Jr. was born John Gebhardt, although no other proof of his identity exists. Some of the Benders' neighbors claimed that John and Kate were not brother and sister, but actually husband and wife.
Deaths and disappearances

In May 1871, the body of a man named Jones, who had had his skull crushed and his throat cut, was discovered in Drum Creek. The owner of the Drum Creek claim was suspected, but no action was taken. In February 1872, the bodies of two men were found who had the same injuries as Jones. By 1873, reports of missing people who had passed through the area had become so common that travelers began to avoid the trail.[2][3][4] The area was already widely known for "horse thieves and villains", and vigilance committees often "arrested" some for the disappearances, only for them to be later released by the authorities. Many honest men under suspicion were also run out of the county by these committees.[6]
Downfall

In the winter of 1872, George Newton Longcor and his infant daughter, Mary Ann, left Independence, Kansas, to resettle in Iowa and were never seen again. In the spring of 1873, Longcor's former neighbor, Dr. William Henry York, went looking for them and questioned homesteaders along the trail. Dr. York reached Fort Scott, and on March 9 began the return journey to Independence but never arrived home. Dr. York had two brothers: Colonel Ed York living in Fort Scott, and Alexander M. York, a member of the Kansas State Senate from Independence who, in November 1872, had been instrumental in exposing U.S. Senator Samuel C. Pomeroy's bribery of state legislators in his bid for re-election. Both knew of William's travel plans and, when he failed to return home, an all-out search began for the missing doctor. Colonel York, leading a company of some fifty men, questioned every traveler along the trail and visited all the area homesteads.

On March 28, 1873, Colonel York arrived at the Benders' inn with a Mr. Johnson, explaining to them that his brother had gone missing and asking if they had seen him. They admitted Dr. York had stayed with them and suggested the possibility that he had run into trouble with Indians. Colonel York agreed that this was possible and remained for dinner.[2][4] On April 3, Colonel York returned to the inn with armed men after being informed that a woman had fled from the inn after being threatened with knives by Elvira Bender. Elvira allegedly could not understand English, while the younger Benders denied the claim. When York repeated the claim, Elvira became enraged, said the woman was a witch who had cursed her coffee, and ordered the men to leave her house, revealing for the first time that "her sense of the English language" was much better than was let on. Before York left, Kate asked him to return alone the following Friday night, and she would use her clairvoyant abilities to help him find his brother. The men with York were convinced the Benders and a neighboring family, the Roaches, were guilty and wanted to hang them all, but York insisted that evidence must be found.[6][7]

Around the same time, neighboring communities began to make accusations that the Osage community was responsible for the disappearances, and a meeting was arranged by the Osage township in the Harmony Grove schoolhouse. The meeting was attended by seventy-five locals, including Colonel York and both John Bender, Sr. and John Bender, Jr.. After discussing the disappearances, including that of William York, it was agreed that a search warrant would be obtained to search every homestead between Big Hill Creek and Drum Creek.[2][3][4] Despite York's strong suspicions regarding the Benders since his visit several weeks earlier, no one had watched them, and it was not noticed for several days that they had fled.[6]
Bender Inn the day after the grave digging began

Three days after the township meeting, Billy Tole was driving cattle past the Bender property when he noticed that the inn was abandoned and the farm animals were unfed. Tole reported the fact to the township trustee, but because of inclement weather, several days lapsed before the abandonment could be investigated. The township trustee called for volunteers, and several hundred turned out to form a search party that included Colonel York. When the party arrived at the inn they found the cabin empty of food, clothing, and personal possessions. A bad odor was noticed and traced to a trap door underneath a bed, nailed shut. After opening the trap, the empty room beneath, 6 feet (1.8 m) deep and 7 feet (2.1 m) square at the top by 3 feet (0.9 m) square at the bottom, was found to have clotted blood on the floor. The stone slab floor was broken up with sledgehammers but no bodies were found, and it was determined that the smell was from blood that had soaked into the soil. The men then physically lifted the cabin and moved it to the side so they could dig under it, but no bodies were found. They then began to probe the ground around the cabin with a metal rod, especially in the disturbed soil of the vegetable garden and orchard, where Dr. York's body was found later that evening, buried face down with his feet barely below the surface. The probing continued until midnight, with another nine suspected grave sites marked before the men were satisfied they had found them all and retired for the night. Digging resumed the following morning; another eight bodies were found in seven of the nine suspected graves, while one was found in the well, along with a number of body parts. All but one had had their heads bashed with a hammer and their throats cut, and it was reported in newspapers that all had been "indecently mutilated". The body of a young girl was found with no injuries sufficient to cause death; it was speculated that she had been strangled or buried alive.[8]

A Kansas newspaper reported that the crowd was so incensed after finding the bodies that a friend of the Benders named Brockman, who was among the onlookers, was hung from a beam in the inn until unconscious, revived and interrogated as to what he knew, then hanged again. After the third hanging, they released him and he staggered home "as one who was drunken or deranged".[9] A Roman Catholic prayer book was found in the house with notes inside written in German, which were later translated. The texts read "Johannah Bender. Born July 30, 1848," "John Gebhardt came to America on July 1 18??," "big slaughter day, Jan eighth", and "hell departed."[8]

Word of the murders spread quickly, and more than three thousand people, including reporters from as far away as New York City and Chicago, visited the site. The Bender cabin was destroyed by souvenir hunters who took everything, including the bricks that lined the cellar and the stones lining the well.[2][3]

State Senator Alexander York offered a $1,000 ($20,914 as of 2019) reward for the Bender family's arrest. On May 17, Kansas Governor Thomas A. Osborn offered a $2,000 ($41,828 as of 2019) reward for the apprehension of all four.
Killing method

It is conjectured that when a guest would stay at the Benders' bed and breakfast inn, the hosts would give the guest a seat of honor at the table which was positioned over a trap door that led into the cellar. With the victim's back to the curtain Kate would distract the guest, while John Bender or his son would come from behind the curtain and strike the guest on the right side of the skull with a hammer. The victim's throat was cut by one of the women to ensure death. The body was then dropped through the trap door. Once in the cellar, the body would be stripped and later buried somewhere on the property, often in the orchard.[2][3] Although some of the victims had been quite wealthy, others had been carrying little of value on them, and it was surmised that the Benders had killed them simply for the sheer thrill.[3]

Testimony from people who had stayed at the Benders' inn and had managed to escape before they could be killed appeared to support the presumed execution method of the Benders. William Pickering said that when he had refused to sit near the wagon cloth because of the stains on it, he was threatened with a knife by Kate Bender, whereupon he fled the premises. A Catholic priest claimed to have seen one of the Bender men concealing a large hammer, at which point he became uncomfortable and quickly departed.[3] Two men who had traveled to the inn to experience Kate Bender's psychic powers stayed on for dinner but had refused to sit at the table next to the cloth, instead preferring to eat their meal at the main shop counter. Kate then became abusive toward them, and a short while later the two Bender men emerged from behind the cloth. At this point, the customers began to feel uneasy and decided to leave, a move that almost certainly saved their lives.[10]

More than a dozen bullet holes were found in the roof and sides of the cabin. The media speculated that some of the victims had attempted to fight back after being hit with the hammer.[6]
Escape

Detectives following wagon tracks discovered the Benders' wagon, abandoned with a starving team of horses with one of the mares lame, just outside the city limits of Thayer, 12 mi (19 km) north of the inn. It was confirmed that in Thayer the family had bought tickets on the Leavenworth, Lawrence & Galveston Railroad for Humboldt. At Chanute, John Jr. and Kate left the train and caught the MK&T train south to the terminus in Red River County near Denison, Texas. From there they traveled to an outlaw colony thought to be in the border region between Texas and New Mexico. They were not pursued, as lawmen following outlaws into this region often never returned.[2] One detective did claim later that he had traced the pair to the border, where he had found that John Jr. had died of apoplexy.[3] Ma and Pa Bender did not leave the train at Humboldt but instead continued north to Kansas City, where it is believed they purchased tickets for St. Louis, Missouri.[2]

Several groups of vigilantes were formed to search for the Benders. Many stories say that one vigilante group actually caught the Benders and shot all of them but Kate, whom they burned alive. Another group claimed they had caught the Benders and lynched them before throwing their bodies into the Verdigris River. Yet another claimed to have killed the Benders during a gunfight and buried their bodies on the prairie. No one ever claimed the $3,000 reward ($62,742 as of 2019), however.

The story of the Benders' escape spread, and the search continued on and off for the next fifty years. Often, two women traveling together were accused of being Kate Bender and her mother.[11]

In 1884, it was reported that John Flickinger had committed suicide in Lake Michigan.[4] Also in 1884, an elderly man matching Pa Bender's description was arrested in Montana for a murder committed near Salmon, Idaho, where the victim had been killed by a hammer blow to the head. A message requesting positive identification was sent to Cherryvale, but the suspect severed his foot to escape his leg irons and bled to death. By the time a deputy from Cherryvale arrived, identification was impossible due to decomposition. Despite the lack of identification, the man's skull was displayed as that of "Pa Bender" in a Salmon saloon until prohibition forced its closure in 1920 and the skull disappeared.[12] Whether John Flickinger was really John Bender is unknown.
Arrests

Several weeks after the discovery of the bodies, Addison Roach and his son-in-law, William Buxton, were arrested as accessories. In total twelve men "of bad repute in general" would be arrested, including Brockman. All had been involved in disposing of the victims' stolen goods with Mit Cherry, a member of the vigilance committee, implicated for forging a letter from one of the victims, informing the man's wife that he had arrived safely at his destination in Illinois.[8] Brockman would be arrested again twenty-three years later for the rape and murder of his own 18-year-old daughter.[9]

On October 31, 1889, it was reported that a Mrs. Almira Monroe (aka Mrs. Almira Griffith) and Mrs. Sarah Eliza Davis had been arrested in Niles, Michigan (often misreported as Detroit) several weeks earlier for larceny. They were released after being found not guilty but were then immediately re-arrested for the Bender murders. According to the Pittsburgh Dispatch, the daughter of one of the Benders' victims, Mrs. Frances E. McCann, had reported the pair to authorities in early October after tracking them down. Mrs. McCann's story came from dreams that she had about her father's murder, which she discussed with Sarah Eliza. The women's identities were later confirmed by two Osage township witnesses from a tintype photograph. In mid-October, Deputy Sheriff LeRoy Dick, the Osage Township trustee who had headed the search of the Bender property, arrived in Michigan and arrested the couple on October 30, following their release on the larceny charges. Mrs. Monroe resisted, declaring that she would not be taken alive, but was subdued by local deputies.

Mrs. Davis claimed that Mrs. Monroe was Ma Bender but that she herself was not Kate, but her sister Sara; she later signed an affidavit to that effect, while Monroe continued to deny the identification and in turn accused Sarah Eliza of being the real Kate Bender. Deputy Sheriff Dick, along with Mrs. McCann, escorted the pair to Oswego, Kansas, where seven members of a 13-member panel confirmed the identification and committed them for trial. Another of Mrs. Monroe's daughters, Mary Gardei, later provided an affidavit claiming that her mother (then Almira Shearer), under the name of Almira Marks, was actually serving two years in the Detroit House of Corrections in 1872 for the manslaughter of her daughter-in-law, Emily Mark. Records of the incarceration back up this affidavit. At her hearing, Mrs. Monroe denied any knowledge of Shearer or the manslaughter charge and remained incarcerated with her daughter. Originally scheduled for February 1890, the trial was held over to May. Mrs. Monroe now admitted she had married a Mr. Shearer in 1872 and claimed she had previously denied it as she did not want the court to know that her name was Shearer at that time and that she had a conviction for manslaughter. Their attorney also produced a marriage certificate indicating that Mrs. Davis had been married in Michigan in 1872, the time when several of the murders were committed. Eyewitness testimony was given that Mrs. Monroe was Ma Bender. Judge Calvin dismissed Mary Gardei's affidavit as she was a "chip off the old block"; he found that other affidavits supporting Gardei's were sufficient proof that the women could never be convicted, however, and he discharged them both. The affidavits and other papers are missing from the file in LaBette County, so further examination is impossible. A number of researchers question the ready acceptance of the affidavit's authenticity and suggest that the county was unwilling to accept the expense of boarding the two women for an extended period. While the two women were certainly criminals and liars, as their own defense attorney admitted, the charges were weak, and many people doubted their identification as the Benders.[2][12][13][14][15][16][17]
Victims

May 1871: Mr. Jones. Body found in Drum Creek with a crushed skull and throat cut.
Winter 1871/1872: Two unidentified men found on the prairie in February 1872 with crushed skulls and throats cut.
1872: Ben Brown. From Howard County, Kansas. $2,600 (2019: $54,376) missing. Buried in the apple orchard.
1872: W.F. McCrotty. Co D 123rd Ill Infantry. $38 (2019: $795) and a wagon with a team of horses missing.
December 1872: Henry McKenzie. Relocating to Independence from Hamilton County, Indiana. $36 (2019: $753) and a matched team of horses missing.
December 1872: Johnny Boyle. From Howard County, Kansas. $10 (2019: $209), a pacing mare, and an $850 (2019: $17,777) saddle missing. Found in the Benders' well.
December 1872: George Newton Longcor and his 18-month-old daughter, Mary Ann. Contemporary newspapers reported his name as either "George W. Longcor" or "George Loncher", while Mary Ann is similarly reported as being either eight years old or 18 months old. According to the 1870 census, George and his wife, Mary Jane, were neighbors of Charles Ingalls and family in Independence, while his wife's parents lived two houses away. Following the deaths of his infant son, Robert, from pneumonia in May 1871 and his 21-year-old wife, Mary Jane (née Gilmore), following the birth of Mary Ann several months later, George was likely returning to the home of his parents, Anthony and Mary (Hughes) Longcor, in Lee County, Iowa. In preparation for his return to Iowa, George had purchased a team of horses from his neighbor, Dr. William Henry York, who later went looking for George and was also murdered; both were veterans of the Civil War. $1,900 (2019: $39,736) missing. The daughter was thought to have been buried alive, but this was not proven. No injuries were found on her body, and she was fully clothed, including mittens and hood. Both were buried together in the apple orchard.
May 1873: Dr William York. $2,000 (2019: $41,828) missing. Buried in the apple orchard.
?: John Greary. Buried in the apple orchard.
?: Unidentified male. Buried in the apple orchard.
?: Unidentified female. Buried in the apple orchard.
?: Various body parts. The parts did not belong to any of the other victims found and are believed to belong to at least three additional victims.
1873: During the search, the bodies of four unidentified males were found in Drum Creek and the surrounds. All four had crushed skulls and throats cut. One might have been Jack Bogart, whose horse was purchased from a friend of the Benders after he went missing in 1872.

By including the recovered body parts not matched to the bodies found, the finds are speculated to represent the remains of more than 20 victims. With the exception of McKenzie and York, who were buried in Independence; the Longcors, who were buried in Montgomery County; and McCrotty, who was buried in Parsons, Kansas, none of the other bodies were claimed, and they were reburied at the base of a small hill 1 mile (1.6 km) southeast of the Benders' orchard, one of several at the location now known as "The Benders Mounds".[6][18] The search of the cabin resulted in the recovery of three hammers: a shoe hammer, a claw hammer, and a sledgehammer that appeared to match indentations in some of the skulls. These hammers were given to the Bender Museum in 1967 by the son of LeRoy Dick, the Osage Township trustee who headed the search of the Bender property.[18] The hammers were displayed at the Bender Museum in Cherryvale, Kansas from 1967 to 1978, when the site was acquired for a fire station. When attempts were made to relocate the museum it became a point of controversy, some locals objecting to the town being known for the Bender murders. The Bender artifacts were eventually given to the Cherryvale Museum, where they remain in a wall-mounted display case.[2][3] A knife with a four-inch tapered blade was reportedly found hidden in a mantel clock in the Bender house by Colonel York. In 1923 it was donated to the Kansas Museum of History by York's wife but is not on display; still bearing reddish-brown stains on the blade, it can be seen upon request.[18]

A historical marker describing the Benders’ crimes is located in the rest area at the junction of U.S. Route 400 and U.S. Route 169 north of Cherryvale.[18]
Connection to Little House on the Prairie

The Ingalls family, made famous in the books and television series Little House on the Prairie, lived near Independence, and Laura Ingalls Wilder mentioned the Bender family in her writing and speeches. In 1937 she gave a speech at a book fair, which was later transcribed and printed in the September 1978 Saturday Evening Post and in the 1988 book A Little House Sampler. She mentioned stopping at the inn, as well as recounting the rumors of the murders spreading through their community. She alleged that her father, "Pa Ingalls", joined in a vigilante hunt for the killers, and when he spoke of later searches for them she recalled, "At such times Pa always said in a strange tone of finality, 'They will never be found.' They were never found and later I formed my own conclusions why."[19][20] Some have cast doubt on the story saying that Laura would have been only 4 when her family moved away from the area, and that the Benders were exposed in 1873, two years after the Ingallses left.[21]
Appearances in media

Anthony Boucher's 1943 short story "They Bite" is set at a western oasis where "Carkers" once used to kill and eat travelers; the hypothesis is floated that they were the Benders (who, in this telling, ate their victims) after leaving Kansas. There are still man-eating somethings at the oasis, and the hypothesis is that the Benders linked up with some sort of supernatural power in the desert and became nearly immortal.[22][23]
Episode 4 of the 1954 television series Stories of the Century, titled "Kate Bender", focused on only the son and daughter.[24]
Candle of the Wicked (1960), by Manly Wade Wellman, novelizes the events leading up to the discovery of the Bender killings.[25][26]
The Big Valley, Season 3, Episode 6, "Ladykiller" (1967) loosely depicts the story of the Bloody Benders, as "an innkeeper's pretty daughter is the bait used to rob and kill visitors". The inn is separated by a canvas curtain, from behind which the "Bleeck" family kills visitors (seated in a chair of honor) with a hammer. The father is guest star Royal Dano. The daughter is played by Marlyn Mason.[27]
The Western novel The Hell Benders (1999) by Ken Hodgson focuses on the manhunt for the Benders after the discovery of their crimes.[28][29]
In Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods, the main character Shadow and his associates Mr. Nancy and Chernabog visit a clearing near Cherryvale, Kansas. Mr. Nancy tells Shadow that a group of people (the Benders) used to make human sacrifices to Chernabog in the clearing. Chernabog, a Russian deity, drew sustenance and power from the murders because the Benders used his chosen instrument, a hammer.[30]
The novel Cottonwood (2004), by Scott Phillips, features Kate Bender in a supporting role; the second half of the book takes place during the trial of two alleged surviving members of the Bender Family.[31][32]
Season 1, episode 15 (2006) of the TV series Supernatural, titled "The Benders", alludes to the historical Benders in a number of ways; set in contemporary Hibbing, Minnesota, it features a family of thrill-killers named Pa, Missy, Lee, and Jared Bender, whose downfall ultimately comes from a sheriff looking for her missing brother.[33]
In Lyle Brandt's novel Massacre Trail (2009), the Benders are responsible for several homestead killings and are brought down by Marshal Jack Slade.[34]
In Season 1, Episode 3 (2013) of the Hulu comedy series Quick Draw, the main character, Sheriff John Henry Hoyle, and his deputy, Eli, are trapped and held hostage by the Benders (John Sr., Elvira, and Kate) while investigating a murder.
Season 2, Episode 2 (2014) of the ID documentary series Evil Kin concerns the Benders; historians, authors, and the director of the Cherryvale Historical Museum are interviewed.[35]
The eighth episode of The Librarians, titled "And the Heart of Darkness", portrays the Benders as serial murderers who escaped justice by hiding in the magical House of Refuge. Katie (Lea Zawada), portrayed as a teenager rather than a young adult, eventually banished her own family and took possession of the house, using it to remain immortal as she tricked and murdered anyone seeking refuge. She was eventually defeated by the Librarians during a mission in Slovakia and turned into dust by the house's caretaker spirit, who had come to recognize her as an evil influence.[36]
The novel Hell's Half-Acre by Nicholas Nicastro (2015) retells the murder spree and imagines the origins of the characters, especially Katie Bender.[37]
The "Hitchcock's Birds, Hope Diamond, Phineas Gang" episode of Travel Channel's show Mysteries at the Museum discusses the story of the Benders. Travel Channel lists the episode as Season 3, Episode 11 onscreen through Hulu, but it is listed as Season 2, Episode 19 on the Travel Channel website,[38] and Season 3, Episode 9 on IMDB.[39]
The Bender Family is mentioned in episode 94 of the podcast My Favorite Murder. Karen Kilgariff discusses the case and theories about the Benders.
In his Bloodlands short story collection, Harold Schechter covered the Bender family in Little Slaughterhouse on the Prairie.[40]
The video game Red Dead Redemption 2 (2018) features the characters Bray and Tammy Aberdeen, who are an allusion to John Jr. and Kate Bender.[41][42]

References

genforum Archived June 13, 2011, at the Wayback Machine
Bloody Bender Family 1871-1873
The Bloody Benders of Labette County Legends of America A Travel Site for the Nostalgic & Historic Minded
Malice, Madness, and Mayhem: an Eclectic Collection of American Infamy pdf Archived 2011-07-11 at the Wayback Machine The Bloody Benders
by whom?
The Devils Kitchen Scanned page of The Weekly Kansas chief. (Troy, Kansas) May 22, 1873. Kansas State Historical Society; Topeka, KS.
According to one of the myths that has grown around the murders, after dinner, Colonel York was sitting in the front room when he noticed a gold locket under one of the beds. He opened it and was surprised to see images of his brother's wife and daughter. He slipped out and returned the next morning with the sheriff and several deputies, only to find that the Benders had fled. After a search of the Bender property, twelve mounds of earth were found among the trees and as many as two dozen bodies were reported to have been found.Bloody Benders: Mass Murderers Of Kansas
Devilish Deeds Scanned page of The Weekly Kansas chief. (Troy, Kansas) May 15, 1873. Kansas State Historical Society; Topeka, KS.
Sheriff Saves the Neck of a Man Who Murdered His Own Daughter (copy of Inter Ocean newspaper November 18, 1896)
http://www.murderbygaslight.com/2010/11/bloody-benders.html
The Bender family
Michael Newton The Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crimes Infobase Publishing 2004 Pg 33 - 35 ISBN 0-8160-4981-5
Keeping a Secret Scan of Pittsburgh Dispatch November 1, 1889 Pg 5 Library of Congress
Scan of The New York Times January 12, 1890 pdf
Scan of Chicago Daily Tribune, October 31, 1889
Laurence J. Yadon, Dan Anderson 200 Texas Outlaws and Lawmen 1835-1935 Pelican Publishing Company 2008 Pg 55 - 56 ISBN 1-58980-514-3
Exit the Benders Kansas Historical Society (The Iola register April 18, 1890)
Potter, Tim (24 August 2013). "The Bloody Benders: 140-year-old crime scene still fascinates today". The Witchita Eagle. Retrieved 2 October 2013.
Reese, Debbie (3 July 2008). "Selective Omissions, or, What Laura Ingalls Wilder left out of LITTLE HOUSE". American Indians in Children's Literature. Retrieved 7 April 2015.
Koerth-Baker, Maggie (20 August 2012). "Little House on the Prairie, serial killers, and the nature of memoir". BoingBoing. Retrieved 7 April 2015.
"Laura Ingalls Wilder and the Bloody Benders". 8 April 2010.[self-published source?]
Unknown Worlds, August 1943, pp. 127-135. Scan
Synopsis: Ruppert, E.A. (22 January 2016). "They Bite: Anthony Boucher's Weirder Western". NerdGoblin. Retrieved 19 July 2016.
IMDb
Wellman, Manly Wade (1960). Candle of the Wicked. Putnam.
Russroom (11 April 2011). "A mild version of the Bloody Benders". Amazon.com. Retrieved 19 July 2016.
IMDb
Hodgson, Ken (March 1999). The Hell Benders. Pinnacle. ISBN 9780786006700.
Goodreads
Gaiman, Neil (June 2001). American Gods. William Morrow. ISBN 9780380973651.
Phillips, Scott (June 2004). Cottonwood. Picador. ISBN 9780330493178.
Goodreads
IMDb
Brandt, Lyle (June 2009). Massacre Trail. Berkley. ISBN 9780425228302.
Willey, Jamie (8 August 2014). "Show to feature Bender murder mystery". Parsons Sun. Retrieved 19 July 2016.
"1x08 ... And The Heart Of Darkness". The Annex: A The Librarians Fan Site. 4 March 2016. Retrieved 19 July 2016.
Nicastro, Nicholas (November 2015). Hell's Half-Acre. HarperCollins. ISBN 9780062422569.
"Hitchcock's Birds, Hope Diamond, Phineas Gage". Travel Channel. Retrieved 2018-06-28.
Mysteries at the Museum, retrieved 2018-06-28
results, search (2018-06-28). Little Slaughterhouse on the Prairie. Amazon Original Stories.
Petite, Steven (December 3, 2018). "'Red Dead Redemption 2' scene alludes to notorious 19th-century serial killers". Digital Trends. Retrieved December 19, 2018.

Usher, William (December 4, 2018). "One Red Dead Redemption 2 Side Quest Is Based On An Actual Serial Killer". Cinema Blend. Retrieved December 19, 2018.

Further reading

The Saga of the Bloody Benders; Rick Geary; NBM Publishing; 2008; ISBN 978-1561634996.
The New Encyclopedia of Serial Killers; Brian Lane and Wilfred Gregg; Headline Book Publishing; 1996; ISBN 0-7472-5361-7.
History of Labette County, Kansas, and Representative Citizens; Nelson Case; Biographical Publishing Company; 846 pages; 1901. (Download 50MB PDF eBook)
Check out the West and Kimbrell Clan and John West from Atlanta Louisiana in Winn Parish. They make Frank and Jesse look tame by comparison.
Clay Allison and John Wesley Hardin were psychopaths as well.
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Clay Allison and John Wesley Hardin were psychopaths as well.

I work with a guy that claims relation to John Hardin. I tell him that's not much to brag about...
I don’t know if he was a psychopath or not, as his crime spree was cut short by local town folks. Very good story, on Wikipedia! Here’s a teaser paragraph! memtb


George Parrott, also known as Big Nose George, Big beak Parrott, George Manuse and George Warden, was a cattle rustler and highwayman in the American Wild West in the late 19th century.[1] His skin was made into a pair of shoes after his lynching and part of his skull was used as an ashtray.[2][3]
The 1800's weren't all that different than the 2000's, people robbing and killing other people. Estimates right now say there are between 30-50 active serial killers in the US.
+1............ Criminally insane psychopaths aren't anything new. They've been around forever but in the past they never got as much exposure as they do today because of modern forensics, fingerprints, DNA analysis, etc.. Couple hundred years ago folks could just change their name and move somewhere else. Nobody had a database on you, a photo of you, your fingerprints, or anything else to positively identify you. Lots of psychos have never been caught, even in modern times.
http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogspot.com/2015/06/bloody-ed-watson.html

Quote
Florida’s most prolific serial killer
by Robert A. Waters

Edgar J. Watson got his violent nature from his father. Nicknamed “Ring-Eye” Lige because of a circular scar around one eye that he got in a knife-fight, Lige would fight anybody at the drop of a hat. Bloody Ed’s mother fled her loutish husband, taking her son from South Carolina to Lake City, Florida.

Soon Ed grew restless and moved to Arkansas. There he hooked up with the outlaw, Belle Starr. They had a falling-out, however, and Starr ended up on the wrong end of a bullet. Watson was suspected of being her killer, but by then, he’d high-tailed it back to Florida where he began racking up an impressive string of murders.

In the early 1900’s, he bought Chatham Bend Key, one of the Ten Thousand Islands in the Everglades. According to Florida’s Past by James M. Burnett, “It was not long before [Watkins] had his fertile little island lush with cane crops, produce, and the valuable buttonwood, cords of which he shipped to Key West. His cane syrup was a popular product and he shipped tons of it in his 70-foot schooner to Fort Myers and to dealers such as Bryan and Snow in Tampa.”

Despite his financial success, Bloody Ed couldn’t keep from killing people. In Arcadia, he knifed Quinn Bass to death, but since no one could positively identify him, he escaped a charge of murder. While visiting relatives in Lake City, he had a dispute with Sam Toland, and ended up shooting him. Bloody Ed was somehow acquitted of Toland’s murder, but was given an ultimatum by the local sheriff: head back to the Ten Thousand Islands and never come back to Lake City.

Watson did just that.

But he could never control his temper. While attending an auction in Key West, Watson got into an argument with local resident Adolphus Santini. The hot-headed Bloody Ed attacked Santini, slitting his throat. He likely would have killed his hapless victim, but bystanders pulled Watson off. Santini survived, but Bloody Ed was forced to pay him $900 (a fortune at the time) to drop the charges of attempted murder.

Not long after, Watson found two men “squatting” on one of his islands. They refused to move, and quickly ended up dead. While there was little evidence, local residents figured Watson was the killer. But since there were no lawmen to investigate (the nearest sheriff lived 90 miles away), Bloody Ed walked yet again.

But those crimes were just incidental to Bloody Ed’s real murderous spree that had been going on for years. In Florida’s Past, Burnett writes: “…A young black boy fled [Chatham Bend Key] in terror, racing over river, swamp, and sawgrass, to reach a group of farmers, clamdiggers, and herdsmen near Chokoloskee. The frightened boy bore witness to a gruesome murder by Watson…” The boy guided the men to the grave of a woman named Hannah Smith. At more than six feet tall and three hundred pounds, she was harder to bury than most of Watson’s victims, and he inadvertently left a leg sticking out of the ground.

This was the final straw for the citizens of the Ten Thousand Islands. They disinterred the remains and soon headed for Ted Smallwood’s Store in Chololoskee, where Watson bought supplies. The crowd had heard that Watson was on his way.

Once he arrived, a shotgun in his boat, the mob was waiting. Witnesses stated that, when Watson advanced toward the men with his gun pointed at them, they opened up. Thirty-three bullets later, Chololoskee’s bad man lay dead. It turned out that Watson had tried to fire his weapon, but the powder in his shotgun shell had been wet and wouldn’t detonate. (Smallwood’s wife had sold him the shells, and rumors circulated that she had intentionally tampered with them.)

But the story didn’t end there. Within hours, a hurricane hit the islands, tearing up the landscape. When searchers returned to Chatham Bend Key, Burnett writes that they unearthed “about 50 skeletons” on properties owned by Watson.

Investigators soon learned that he would travel to Tampa or Tarpon Springs and hire workers to help load his produce. He made sure these men had few, if any, relatives who would come looking for them. When these down-and-outers became insistent that he pay them, he would dispatch them and bury their bodies on one of his islands. In other cases, it is thought that he dumped many in the Gulf of Mexico.

The actual number of souls murdered by the diabolical madman will never be known.

The county sheriff finally arrived and held an inquest into Watson’s death. No charges were ever filed against those who gunned down the killer.

Edgar Watson’s remains were interred at Rabbit Key, and the secrets of Florida’s most prolific serial killer were buried with him.
Joseph "Jack" Slade was a brutal killer when drinking, allegedly cordial when sober. Mark Twain writes about him a bit in Roughing It, including his encounter with him, during which Twain was terrified. Hard to tell when old Sam is telling the truth sometimes.

Vigilantes put an end to Slade with a rope. Presumeably sober, he cried like a baby over his beloved wife who didn't make it in time for the hanging.
Bad Tom Smith was one of the more prolific killers in the feuds that occurred in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky during the latter part of the 19th century.

https://www.breathittcounty.com/BadTom.html

You know he was a "bad man" when even his tombstone lists his name as "Bad Tom Smith".

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/89881605/thomas-smith
Actually Southeast U.S. white folks were a bunch of killers back in the day. Some of my ancestors were mixed up in it both giving and receiving.
Where does Leroy Brown fit in?
bad. bad. baddest man in the whole darn town.
Originally Posted by nemotheangler
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Clay Allison and John Wesley Hardin were psychopaths as well.

I work with a guy that claims relation to John Hardin. I tell him that's not much to brag about...


The Hardin were a large family clan group in Texas. Another being the Parkers, as in related to Quanah Parker.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_Espinosa

Always heard that Felipe and his cousin Jose were hunted down by the old mountain man Tom Tobin. And beheaded after he shot em both with his Hawken rifle. And their heads carried to the governor while he was having a dance party. When questioned if he had caught the Espinosas, Tobin allegedly upended the bag containing the heads on the dance floor.


This act brought the dance to an abrupt halt.
Hang down your head Tom Dooley. Ol boy was hung in Statesville, N.C. They say he danced and sang, while riding the wagon, on the way to his hanging.
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_Espinosa

Always heard that Felipe and his cousin Jose were hunted down by the old mountain man Tom Tobin. And beheaded after he shot em both with his Hawken rifle. And their heads carried to the governor while he was having a dance party. When questioned if he had caught the Espinosas, Tobin allegedly upended the bag containing the heads on the dance floor.


This act brought the dance to an abrupt halt.



That's what we need to do with the commies in the halls of congress.

Those witnessing might have a bit of an impression after that.
If your kid is low and mean enough to throw the family dog down the well out of pure spite, just throw him down there too, the well is ruined anyway and you’ll save everyone a lot of grief.

Seems like some people are just born bad.

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Samuel-Green-(criminal)

In our lifetime, old Charles Askins was a bit of a sociopath. I read his book "Unrepentant Sinner" and he was a bit nuts.
Originally Posted by UPhiker
In our lifetime, old Charles Askins was a bit of a sociopath. I read his book "Unrepentant Sinner" and he was a bit nuts.

Crazy like a fox.

Had you reading his stuff. Me, too and a lot of others.

He was in the business of selling his stuff. Wrote what would sell. Did pretty well.

DF
Quite a few interesting stories here. Thanks to all who've passed them on.
7mm
Originally Posted by 7mmbuster
Quite a few interesting stories here. Thanks to all who've passed them on.
7mm


what i've been wandering about for some time is what is the basic differences between a psychopath and a sociopath?

i mean, there must be a difference, right?
Originally Posted by Gus
Originally Posted by 7mmbuster
Quite a few interesting stories here. Thanks to all who've passed them on.
7mm


what i've been wandering about for some time is what is the basic differences between a psychopath and a sociopath?

i mean, there must be a difference, right?
Not really. If you're one, you're the other...you know, unless you don't care about people as individuals but you have a deep, abiding love for society.
The Judge...he was a little touched. Cuttin' off heads and shixt.
By all accounts Tom Horn fits the pattern. There are others if you look and consider their patterns. Maybe the Earps, Wild Bill Hickock, even Jim Bowie.
Quote
Birdwatcher, I believe you probably passed real close to Cave-in-Rock, on the Illinois side of the Ohio River on one of your previous summer time cross country bicycle trips


Hey, thanks for remembering, that was five years back cool

[Linked Image]

On that NY trip I crossed over at Cape Girardeau and turned north at Vienna, prob'y about 35 miles as the crow flies from the cave.
Originally Posted by Gus
Originally Posted by 7mmbuster
Quite a few interesting stories here. Thanks to all who've passed them on.
7mm


what i've been wandering about for some time is what is the basic differences between a psychopath and a sociopath?

i mean, there must be a difference, right?

Near as I can tell, and this is just some redneck talking, is that a psychopath just has no feelings about what they're doing. They got no empathy, no moral compass or sense of right and wrong. They can ACT very friendly or charming, but it's only an act. They feel nothing.
A sociopath, at least as it applies to this thread understands what they're doing, and is likely getting off on doing it.

Just out of curiosity, where do you fellas put our friend Lewis Wetzel in this subject? Lord knows he was plenty efficient at eliminating Indians. I'm not saying I condone what he did, but one kinda has to admire his talent and efficiency.
7mm
What about liver Eatin Johnson?
He was not such a bad guy.
I HATE liver. Worse than cauliflower and broccoli combined.
The Differences Between Psychopaths and Sociopaths

Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Quote
Birdwatcher, I believe you probably passed real close to Cave-in-Rock, on the Illinois side of the Ohio River on one of your previous summer time cross country bicycle trips


Hey, thanks for remembering, that was five years back cool

[Linked Image]

On that NY trip I crossed over at Cape Girardeau and turned north at Vienna, prob'y about 35 miles as the crow flies from the cave.


There's a pretty good size ferry that transports vehicles back and forth across the Ohio River between Cave-in-Rock, Il, and Marion, KY, which is pretty cool. It still would have put you a good ways away from Cairo, IL, which as I recall was recommend that you avoid traveling through on a bicycle.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attract...lbumid=101&filter=7&ff=181190443
Originally Posted by BigDave39355
What about liver Eatin Johnson?

Funny how the great Jeremiah Johnson movie really watered down the true story of Liver Eatin' Johnson.

As to old west killers I nominate James P. Beckwourth.

Reading his biography, I lost track of how many scalps he took while a Crow chief and fur trapper. Hundreds of bloody scalps.

Edited to add here's a link to his biography: Life and Adventures of James P. Beckwourth



No doubt Beckworth did plenty of killing and scalping, but he had a reputation as prone to
exaggeration (lbig liar).

Correct. Think of Sociopath = Charlie Manson and Psychopath = Ted Bundy. You look at Manson and think "he's crazy" while Bundy could be the quiet guy next door.
I don't think the world has changed all that much.
Originally Posted by BlueDuck
I don't think the world has changed all that much.



Sure it has.

There's more people in it.

The more people, the more nutjobs.
Originally Posted by memtb
I don’t know if he was a psychopath or not, as his crime spree was cut short by local town folks. Very good story, on Wikipedia! Here’s a teaser paragraph! memtb


George Parrott, also known as Big Nose George, Big beak Parrott, George Manuse and George Warden, was a cattle rustler and highwayman in the American Wild West in the late 19th century.[1] His skin was made into a pair of shoes after his lynching and part of his skull was used as an ashtray.[2][3]


Those shoes are in the museum at Rawlins.

Look up lil' Arch Clements for a hard case. He took command of Bloody Bill's company after Bill's death and was only 16 years old. I've read that he was the one with scalps hanging from his horses bridal and not Bill.
Originally Posted by BlueDuck
I don't think the world has changed all that much.

I think there are probably fewer crazy people per capita now. A lot of lead and mercury poisoning back then. Ever hear the phrase "mad as a hatter"?
“ Blood Meridian “ would be a good read for any who are enjoying this thread. Those scalp hunters were some depraved bastards.

Kaywoodie probably can recall the real life persons the novel drew upon.
tag
Originally Posted by curdog4570
“ Blood Meridian “ would be a good read for any who are enjoying this thread. Those scalp hunters were some depraved bastards.

Kaywoodie probably can recall the real life persons the novel drew upon.

Blood Meridian is a very good, very dark read.
Henry P. Larabee is a fairly well known name in Northern California History.

He was notorious as a killer of Indians, having once bragged that he killed more than 60 Indian children with a hatchet, and served as a corporal in the Volunteer Guides during the Bald Hills War.[1] He is widely believed to have been an instigator and among the killers in the Indian Island Massacre,[3] who, besides Corporal Henry P. Larrabee include Sergeant Charles A.D. Huestis, Private George W. Huestis, Private Wallace M. Hagan and James D. Henry Brown.[4][5]

United States Army Lieutenant Daniel Lynn, sent to Larrabee Valley with a detachment in March 1861, described Larrabee to his superior, Captain Charles Lovell:

"Here in this apparently lovely valley lived a man about whose qualities I feel myself impelled to speak. I heard no man speak in his favor, nor even intimate one redeeming trait in his character. The universal cry was against him. At the Thousand Acre Field and Iaqua Ranch even the woman who was shot and burned to death was condemned for living with such a man. Of most enormities of which he stands accused you are aware. An accomplice and actor in the massacre at Indian Island and South Bay; the murderer of Yo-keel-la-bah; recently engaged in killing unoffending Indians, his party, according to their own story, having killed eighteen at one time (eight bucks and ten squaws and children), and now at work imbruing his hands in the blood of slaughtered innocence. I do not think Mr. Larrabee can be too emphatically condemned."[6]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_P._Larrabee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_Wiyot_massacre


He was also said to have used Indians as target practice. Of course my grandmother said the same was true of her grandfather who was in that part of the country at the same time. He was 1/2 Cherokee so if true that might of played a part in it.

Not the legendary Wild West, nor people you've heard of, but a local issue back in the 1800's.

Back in that day, after the Civil War, people from war ravaged areas of the South often pulled up roots, moved West to restake their claims, start over. Many liquidated their holdings, had gold, currency and other valuable possessions as they ventured West to a new life.

The Harrisonburg road connected the Natchez Trace with the El Camino Real. That stretch of road went through the upper end of what had been the Neutral Zone, or no man's land between English and Spanish law, dating back to Colonial times, had been a refuge for those sought by the law from both sides.

The West Kimbrell gang were classic Psychopaths, by the DSM-5 definition posted earlier. They were deacons in the church, Masons, businessmen, citizens of standing in the community. For quite a while, they hosted traveling families, fed them and killed them. Bodies were thrown into wells, property seized and life went on. Back then communication was slow and if you were a state or two away from where you started, an information blackout wasn't uncommon. So, no missing persons reports, etc.

These guys killed everyone, left no witnesses. Legend has it a young gang member was ordered to kill a young girl, but couldn't. She identified him and before long the identity of the gang was known.

The historical plaque (hope you can read it) says they were executed by firing squad. Local lore says vigilantes hunted'em down, shot'em like ferel dogs. The historical plaque mentions the "rich history" of this area. Not too much "rich" about that, IMO. Pretty sorry commentary. Only a chamber of commerce or politician would see it otherwise.

These guys had the confidence, polish and gregariousness that fit the classic DSM definition of Psychopath, as compared to the rather awkward, sometimes erratic, socially retarded Sociopath..

DF

[Linked Image]
Read a book about the black donnelys, a fine tale of canucks
I have enjoyed this thread about as much as anything I recently read, but I am skeptical about one recurring theme - dumping bodies down wells.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would dispose of bodies by dumping them down a well. In that time period wells were hand-dug, they were generally only a few feet deep, a body in one would more than likely be visible and would surely taint the water in a short time. Dumping a body in a well would only hasten the discovery - to quote Spock "it is not logical".

Wells were not as common as thought either since most folks depended on creeks or springs for their water, if there was a well you can just about bet it was being used. So why would anyone dump a body when it would be almost surely be discovered quickly.

drover
Everybody drank whiskey due to constant body-in-the-well episodes.
Originally Posted by drover
I have enjoyed this thread about as much as anything I recently read, but I am skeptical about one recurring theme - dumping bodies down wells.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would dispose of bodies by dumping them down a well. In that time period wells were hand-dug, they were generally only a few feet deep, a body in one would more than likely be visible and would surely taint the water in a short time. Dumping a body in a well would only hasten the discovery - to quote Spock "it is not logical".

Wells were not as common as thought either since most folks depended on creeks or springs for their water, if there was a well you can just about bet it was being used. So why would anyone dump a body when it would be almost surely be discovered quickly.

drover


Makes sense if it's somebody else's well.
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by curdog4570
“ Blood Meridian “ would be a good read for any who are enjoying this thread. Those scalp hunters were some depraved bastards.

Kaywoodie probably can recall the real life persons the novel drew upon.

Blood Meridian is a very good, very dark read.

In my top 5 all time favorite reads. Still don't know if The Judge is the devil or just human nature distilled...
Ya, John Glanton, inspiration for “Blood Meridian”, the future infamous scalphunter was Jack Hays’ actual Second in Command when the Texas Rangers went into Mexico in 1846 to fight in the Mexican War, they killed a whole bunch of civilians so much so that Generals Scott and Taylor tried to send ‘em home. Ten years earlier Glanton had been running loose around Goliad as a “scout” for the Texian Army.

It was the deeds of the likes of Glanton around the Goliad area that PO’d the Goliad Tejanos, this was a big mistake, 200 angry Vaqueros that knew the country like the back of their hand. Their active participation was the reason why Urrea was able to thrash the Texians every time he fought ‘em.
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Originally Posted by drover
I have enjoyed this thread about as much as anything I recently read, but I am skeptical about one recurring theme - dumping bodies down wells.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would dispose of bodies by dumping them down a well. In that time period wells were hand-dug, they were generally only a few feet deep, a body in one would more than likely be visible and would surely taint the water in a short time. Dumping a body in a well would only hasten the discovery - to quote Spock "it is not logical".

Wells were not as common as thought either since most folks depended on creeks or springs for their water, if there was a well you can just about bet it was being used. So why would anyone dump a body when it would be almost surely be discovered quickly.

drover


Makes sense if it's somebody else's well.

Could be abandoned wells, doubt it would be one of theirs.

That part has been pretty well established, historically.

Anyone who will kill unsuspecting travelers for their stuff would have no problems polluting a well.

Pretty sorry bunch, any way you look at it.

DF

Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Originally Posted by drover
I have enjoyed this thread about as much as anything I recently read, but I am skeptical about one recurring theme - dumping bodies down wells.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would dispose of bodies by dumping them down a well. In that time period wells were hand-dug, they were generally only a few feet deep, a body in one would more than likely be visible and would surely taint the water in a short time. Dumping a body in a well would only hasten the discovery - to quote Spock "it is not logical".

Wells were not as common as thought either since most folks depended on creeks or springs for their water, if there was a well you can just about bet it was being used. So why would anyone dump a body when it would be almost surely be discovered quickly.

drover


Makes sense if it's somebody else's well.

Could be abandoned wells, doubt it would be one of theirs.

That part has been pretty well established, historically.

Anyone who will kill unsuspecting travelers for their stuff would have no problems polluting a well.

Pretty sorry bunch, any way you look at it.

DF



Old local legend, woman and her lover killed her husband and disposed of his body by dumping it in a water well. They intended to run off together away this part of the country anyway so they wouldn't have cared about contaminating the well water.

Not all water wells have good, clear, tasteless, odorless water to begin with. My own grandmother's well water had a sulfurous 'rotten egg' odor and had for as far back as I can remember. Really pretty common for open wells to have critters fall in them and die too, such as mice, rats, snakes, frogs, lizards, small warm blooded animals and birds.

While hunting I've happened up on abandoned old, apparently hand dug, cobble stone walled, open water wells that looked scary deep.


the campfire, such as this thread, throws things at me now and then. in the 1860's and 1870's, and later, my great grandfather and family lived aroun the oswego ks area, and in fact a number of relatives are buried there. They would have had to known the story of the bender family.
We were sorting out some old weapons over the weekend, one of which is a blackpowder cap and ball shotgun. The stock is patched with the iron from wagonwheels screwed into the wood. It was turned in by a very elderly lady going into a rest home. She wanted it to have a good home. She said it came with them from the east coast by wagon to kansas, and said it helped keep kansas free, during the civil war.
You have to wonder what those weapons had seen.
I must catch up on this one...
I ordered Blood Meridian because of this thread. Due here tomorrow.
When I think of wells I think of western type wells...........deep. 😁

Interesting thread. 👍
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
When I think of wells I think of western type wells...........deep. 😁

Interesting thread. 👍

Typical water wells in that country run around 30'-40', some deeper.

I had three dug on a farm I had a few miles from that area. Guy had a big auger truck, set 30" concrete curbs. Lot faster than hand digging.

DF
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
When I think of wells I think of western type wells...........deep. 😁

Interesting thread. 👍

Typical water wells in that country run around 30'-40', some deeper.

I had three dug on a farm I had a few miles from that area. Guy had a big auger truck, set 30" concrete curbs. Lot faster than hand digging.

DF


Yeah that’s interesting, I remember Steelhead asking about that years back and this thread reminded me of that.

My in-laws just dug and cased their well a lot deeper to supply the properties they subdivided and sold, I think they went from 175 down to 450 feet.
That's in the pineywoods. There's usually good quality driinking water at those depths.

In the Red River Delta, there's a huge aquifer at 100' but high in Mg++ and Ca++. Great for cows, lots of it, endless supply.

For drinking water, it depends. Where I was raised, 400' well, great water. Less than a mile up the road, 450', sorta brackish.

5-6 miles on up the river, 700+' artesian well that flows, good enough quality to sell as bottled water. So, you never know in that country.

Pineywoods seem more predictable.

DF
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