I suppose I have a sickness because I picked up another used M70 today that I had been seeing on a rack for quite a while. It is blue/wood 300 WM with a BOSS and seems to be very lightly used. The extractor is quite tight and is somewhat difficult to move around when the bolt is removed. It also offers noticeable resistance when the bolt is opened or closed. I removed the firing pin assembly to make sure the resistance had nothing do do with that. None of my other M70's has anywhere near as much resistance as does this one. Is this something that will easily wear in to become easier or is there anything I need to do to it? It is quite usable now, but I would like it a little slicker.

The rifle is serial number G92XXX. Does anyone know the year of manufacture?

My guess would be it was manufactured in around 1995-1996 as by '97 they were already in the 6 digit range, based on rifles I own.

As far as the extractor goes...get a Williams. They are easily changed, and the Williams unit is quite a desirable addition for the Classic Model 70s.

While you wait for it to arrive, remove the factory extractor and see if the extractor ring has something under it to cause this condition. Maybe the bolt is slightly oversize or needs some polishing under the extractor ring's channel.

I took off the extractor and noticed the two places that have been brightened by wear are in the collar near the extractor and on the little metal piece that is opposite the extractor and held in by the collar. Would it be unwise to put a little fine abrasive compound under these parts and work the bolt a bunch of times?

I have thought about some Williams extractors but have never before had any problems with the ones from the factory. I might have to give one or two a try.

I'm no gunsmith, but it shouldn't hurt as long as the area is cleaned thoroughly when finished.

That little piece on the left of the ring is called the gas block. These are MIM, and they are supposed to help block escaping gas in the event of a ruptured case and provide a guide point for the bolt. I've had one of them break. Of course the rifle will still function. I've had it in mind to fabricate one with a file and a piece of steel, but just never have. I'd like to see Williams machine a bunch of these gas blocks. Also, you would love the Williams extractor. Good luck to you.

It would not be wise...

The repair involves removing the extractor and enlarging the slot slightly where the collar engages the extractor.. It's a 10 minute job and you'll have a much easier working unit..

Thanks Redneck. I will give that a try.

Notropis,

The first thing I would do is to check the pinch of the extractor. With the bolt in your hand and the extractor lined up over the locking lug (this is the position it would be in when moving the bolt in the rifle to feed a round out of the magazine) slide a round up the bolt face under the extractor. The extractor should just hold the round on the bolt face. If much force is needed to get the round under the extractor then the extractor needs to be adjusted by bending the tail of the extractor away from the bolt to reduce the pressure. If you need more pressure, take the extractor of and bend the tail in.

Most likely you have too much pinch causing the extractor to be tight on the bolt.

Headache

He stated in the top post that it's difficult to move around even with the bolt removed.. Had nothing to do with a case on the boltface..

FWIW, the extractor should have only a modicum of resistence to movement when bolt's out of the receiver. 'Difficult' tends to make me look at the collar cutout first..

Redneck,

If the extractor has too much bend in the tail it will be difficult to rotate and could even hit the locking lug if over bent. Also he should check to see if he has the correct extractor for his caliber. If all this checks out then yes he should check to make sure the bolt cuts are correct.

Headache

I'm betting there's no obvious bend.. And it would be very obvious.. and then there would be some serious rub marks on the rearward exterior. Not mentioned above.. Um, no.. The guide that runs in the groove prevents that - unless somebody ground some off.. And he doesn't mention the extractor hitting any lug.. Whether he has the correct one or not, the only difference there is overall length or nose (for std, or magnum cases) and would not cause the issues he describes.. Trust me.. I've worked with literally hundreds of M70 extractors...

Hey Redneck, be careful, I'll bet if you've seen hundreds of extractors that Headache has see thousands. Forget his exalted title but he was with USRAC for many years, I believe lastly supervising design engineer or something like that, in the manufacture of Winchester rifles.

Excessive tension will indeed cause difficulty in rotating the extractor. A burr on the extractor at the lip area where it rotates in the groove around the bolt will also cause this.

Excessive tension and a groove too deep in the bolt will cause the extractor to hit the bolt lug as well.

I would remove the extractor after checking the tension as Headache described above first. If tension looked to be good, I would then polish the small lug that resides in the groove of the bolt when it is installed. Next, I would inspect and perhaps polish that same groove in the bolt itself. After that, I would polish the backside of the gas block and the groove that the spring collar rotates around in.

If none of that worked, you have more there than meets the eye and most likely a groove in the bolt that will have to be remachined to completely fix the problem. Perhaps this can be remedied with an extractor modification as well, but I would follow the above steps first.

Triggerguard, I ordered several extractors from you folks yesterday to try on this and other M70's I have. It will probably be the weekend before I get back to where my toys are so can not do much tinkering just yet. I did take off the extractor and noticed a very shiny spot on the rear of the gas block and shiny spots on the collar near where it is bent up to attach to the extractor. I don't have a case with the correct size base at hand (they are all with my stuff at home) but can easily bend up the front of the extractor with my finger. This does nothing to make it easier to move. I can wiggle the extractor a bit by pushing sideways on the rear. It pivots around the attachment to the collar. This would indicate to me that the extractor is probably not binding at the head of the bolt but rather that the tightness of the collar is the most likely problem. I will run the diagnostic tests you have all suggested when I get back to where my toys are. I have a sick inlaw who is requiring attention out of town at the moment. I certainly appreciate all the suggestions and will report back what I find.

Like I've been saying above..

This is why, at times, I hesitate to attempt to help out a fellow M70 owner on the public forum.. What I should probably do from now on is just help via pms.... People can get off on the strangest tangents...

But whatever... Notropis, I hope you get it resolved.. But if you need further guidance, just pm me and I'll do my best..

No offense, but what you're referring to as a strange tangent is information being relayed by one person who designed the extractor for the MIM process over 15 years ago for Winchester and one who makes them from machined steel for the last 7 years.

The information I provided, as well as headache, was spot on and it is exactly the procedure that I would take, if the rifle was in my posession to accurately determine all the problems it may have. Then again, I've only made about 80,000 or so...........

Information you provided for the fix is correct, if that is indeed what the problem was, but not all of the information you were relaying as fact, was indeed that.

Internet diagnosis of a problem can sometimes leave a lot of unanswered questions, but based on what you mentioned, as well as mine and headache's input, I would imagine that the poster will get it figured out.
Sometimes is doesn't hurt to keep the ego in check.

No offense taken Matt.. I personally talked with Headache yesterday and he basically agreed with what I was saying..

But whatever.... who cares.. I'm outta here..

No Redneck, keep posting your knowledge and experience here so that the rest of us can benefit from it!
I know I've learned alot from your posts and I'd hate to think that I didn't have you as a source any longer.

Keep posting here and let the naysayers be darned!

Yes, I know that.. I know that too..

Yeah, but you didn't make THAT one, from what can be determined.. You ever get one of yours back that wasn't right? Or had to replace one that didn't work or fit? I'm betting you have.. None of us are perfect...

But I try to help from an end-user standpoint along with that of the experience of hands-on diagnosis.. You and Headache are valuable help from an engineering standpoint, i.e., design and build.. And, no offense, but there are countless times when I'm working on some machines that I wish I had the engineer in my grip so I could strangle 'em for a dumbazzed design related to maintenance that could be done SO much simpler.. I'm not the only one who will tell you that many, many times, engineers would change a lot of designs if they had to use their own machines.. Sorta like computer programmers struggle with end-users.. At times, both want to strangle the other.. Hehehehe..

But I digress..

Oh, you betcha...
Practice what you preach, brother..

Look.. There's a lot of knowledge on this board.. Let's use it in positive ways instead of investing in acrimony..

I've had extractors returned to me that did not work on the rifle they were supposed to, but so far in every case, it has been the receiver, and or bolt that has been out of tolerance.
I'm not saying I haven't made bad parts, but the system that I use for making extractors ensures that those bad parts and or mistakes are caught before they leave the door. They are also manufactured in such a way that 100% of all the critical features that enable the extractor to function correctly, are machined in a single setup, ensuring the absolute tighest tolerances possible on our CNCs.

My engineering degree was issued to me by Smith River Gunsmithing, Williams Mfg. of Oregon, and Williams Firearms Company in that order. I learned first how to build rifles, determined what didn't work from the factory and then how to make parts on manual equipment. I took that knowledge, coupled with 4 years of old-school drafting and taught myself CNC, Cadd, and CAM. 99% of all the programming that I do on my machines is without the aid of a CAM program, simply because CAM limits the versatiltiy that a good programmer has when doing it on their own.
When I had a few years of this info under my belt, I was making parts for the aerospace industry to supplement a slow-growing firearms parts business. The tolerances that I held in that line of work will never be seen on firearms from a factory or otherwise, but it provided a very good opportunity to learn better ways of making parts.

One thing that I've learned over the years of doing this is that you are never too old to learn something new, regardless of the source of information, but don't be so quick to throw out what you haven't yet proved true or false.

If you'll reread my post, you'll notice that the solution you provided didn't have me correcting you, because that could be the issue. What I was correcting you on was that excessive tension could also cause the problem described, which you said "um NO" to. You also said that an extractor could not hit the lug if it was out of adjustment. That too is incorrect because it certainly can due to bad tensioning and sloppy tolerances.
With a polished or jeweled bolt, you would not see as easily the rub marks that weren't mentioned in the earlier post. All of this gets back to internet diagnosis, which many folks on here are quick to make a hard-fast determination of, but rarely have all the info at hand when doing so.

I don't think anyone on this site doesn't appreciate our help and input on some of nuances that pop up with model 70's from time to time, but getting riled up over having factual, but different information presented doesn't really do anyone any good.

The bottom line is, we all have our own pieces of information gained from our own experiences to contribute. The day we believe that our way of thinking is the only way, we will indeed be doing ourselves and our customers a huge disservice.
I listen to gunsmiths everyday and it has had a huge influence on our entire product line. Guys like you provide me with priceless information about many things regarding our products and improvements to be made, but while you're providing rifles for customers, I'm doing the same right here in my shop for myself, family members and friends.





I couldn't agree more, which is the only reason I entered this topic in the first place.

Now, I'll let you all get back to your reguarly-scheduled programming.

Why not just hone the bright spots, that is what one would do to slick up any bolt action..always use a hone, not abrasive paper or files.

I have several Modei 70 Classice. I put Williams extractors on
all of them. I had one that was causing a tight bolt lift.
Last night I did exactly as Mr. Redneck suggested. Now the bolt lift is just fine. A small neddle file and a few minutes did the trick.
Redneck has done several jobs for me on my Model 70's. HE is a very good gunsmith. I am well pleased with his work.

Matt, the 'um, no' response was not on your post.. And it wasn't meant as a 'well, duh,' reaction.. It was meant as a 'well, I gotta think about that for a sec, then realize the answer is most likely 'no'.. Further, an extractor would have to be really bent up to allow serious contact with a bolt lug - something I've never seen in my entire working time with M70s.. IMVHO, that would be an extreme rarity and one to look at only after all other, more common maladies, are considered.. Not saying it cannot happen, but that it's entirely unlikely..

Since you're offering a bio, and I realize you have tons more engineering experience than I, I can only say that I've been a full-time smith for nearly 13 years, specialized in M70s for 10, but have worked with M70s on my own for over 35 years.. While I don't have the degrees and schooling as in your case, I do have a ton of practical knowledge - many times things you won't/can't learn in schools.. That said, you bet I learn things every week.. Now, if I can just remember half of 'em..

Ray, 'honing' the bright spots won't address the problem.. There's a reason for those to exist.. The proper thing to do , IMHO again, is to find out why those are occurring and correct the problem..

In any case, going back to square one, I hope the OP has solved his issue and things are good to go..

Best to ya all..

I got a little square-end diamond file and worked a little on the area you indicated. It did loosen it up quite a bit. I would like it a little looser but hesitate to tinker with it too much until I get back down to my workshop.

Not that I need one at this time, but is there an easy source for replacements for the bands that attach the extractor to the bolt. I tent to be somewhat more adventuresome if I know I can replace what I destroy.

Another quick question: I am not sure I can warm up to having the BOSS sitting out there on the end of my barrel and may consider a cut-recrown job sometime in the future. Cutting it back to the unthreaded portion would make that barrel about 22" from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. Would that be way too short for a 300 WM? I suppose I should scope it and shoot it before I make any decisions like that. I may even grow fond of that ugly thing out there on the end of the barrel. My brother has several that he really likes.

The collars are still available - just call Winchester.. They're rather cheap too, an added bonus.. And if Winnie runs out, maybe Matt will have found a new item to manufacture..

To get the most out of a .300WM the barrel needs to be longer than 22"., however, the loss of FPS won't be enough to where the animal will notice it much..

Yeah, shoot it first and see what you get for groups.. You might be surprised.. At the same time, you might have to fool with the settings for a bunch of shots until you find the sweet spot..

It is good to know I can still get the collars but doubt I will actually have to get a spare.

I do plan on shooting the rifle before I do any surgery. I can put up with a good bit of ugly if it shoots well. I look forward to having one more rifle to take to the range to try to get dialed in before hunting season. I have never before has a BOSS so this should be interesting.

I appreciate all the advice you folks have given me.

Winchester used to sell a cap so that you could unscrew the boss and screw the cap on. The factory crown remains unchanged. A young friend of mine has been hunting with a .30-06 so equipped for at least ten years. He says that it shoots just as well without the boss. I would assume that you can find one of the caps somewhere...

Lee, my engineering comes from hands-on. The schools I listed were my father's gunsmithing business, the name of our company when we started manufacturing parts and our current business.......That would be otherwise known as the school of hard knocks.

Again, when I got into this topic I didn't say that what you were suggesting was not a possible cure, but that there could be other items related to the fix as well, items that should be addressed regardless on a custom build if I myself were doing it.

With all that said, we have a mutual customer who will most likely be calling you today about a rifle you used my extractor on and he's having problems with the feeding. It's a 375H&H New Haven model and its dropping rounds back into the magazine at a slow bolt movement. It originally had a MIM extractor that he says works fine, but the one that you installed on the bolt does not. I sent him another extractor in Matte Blue for him to try that I verified myself as to the dimensions and quality. He says that one isn't holding the cartridge either. He indicated that he's going to send the rifle back to you to check out, since you had apparently done some other work to it.
This would be a good opportunity for us to work together and diagnose this situation over the phone. When you make contact with this guy and you've received the rifle and extractor, please contact me so that we can get this resolved for him as soon as possible.

While you sometimes hate to give advice to fellow Model 70 owners, I hate to type some thoughts that can't be relayed accurately in print, but must first be heard to understand the way in which there were intended to be delivered..........

Yeah, he called me last night.. I've got a good idea where to look for the problem... I don't think it's going to be huge.. But it's interesting that the factory extractor works well, yet yours won't..

The only thing I found when I installed your initial extractor is that it would not allow the bolt to close with a round inserted manually in the chamber.. You know the cure as well as I.. But that had nothing to do with the case falling off the boltface.. And the interesting thing is, that did not happen here.. I tested that rifle with several cycles of rounds from a full magazine and never had one release early..

It should be here by tomorrow or Thursday.. When I find the problem I'll post back with results..

Redneck,
Guess I would have to argue that point on honeing the bright spots..If you proper hone two surfices things tend to come to a hand fit...but to each his own and what works for one may not work for another...My hand honed actions witll fall either way simply by lifting the rifle up or down as long as you don't clost the bolt. When I am finished polishing they normally leave no marks, not to say they won't show some wear down the line, but it would be minimal and of no consequesces.

Matt... Got it.. PM coming - I wanna run this by you..

I'd be inclined to use Redneck's approach. I'd rather marf up an extractor than a bolt.

Tell us what you found, if you have corrected the problem.

Neither William's magnum extractors would work.. Only the factory one . That was a new one to me.. But I cured it by fitting a standard extractor to the bolt. Now it holds the case well, snaps over upon manual feeding and allows full contact with the ejector..

Methinks the original bolt face was machined a tad large at the factory - allowing the case head to move a bit too far to the left and not allowing any amount of tension to work with the other extractors.. I even tried removing .010 of the bolt guide on one extractor - moving the 'nose' further inwards.. It did bupkis.. In any case, I had it cured within an hour and back in the mail to the customer that afternoon.

Weird things happen on occasion - this was one of 'em..