Linseed Oil - 24hourcampfire

I've done a fair amount of furniture work before, but I've never finished a stock, and I am redoing the basicly sound stock of my Turkish Mauser. Yeah, it'll look like a refinished milsurp stock when I'm done, but you gotta start somewhere. My question to those who have used Linseed oil is do you cut it with mineral spirits for better penetration when using it on a stock, or just straight?

Youper,I would reconsider the Linseed Oil. Pick up some TruOil from Brownells, or even some Tung Oil at your local hardware store. Either of these will give you a good finish with a little effort on your part and the result will be better than linseed oil. Just sand lightly between each coat, and watch for runs. Linseed oil, in my experience, never really dries well. If you insist on using it, you can cut the first coat 50/50 with mineral spirits, and then put the second and third coats on full strength. ------------------ Stush

Varathane 66, comes in a gold can, very thin, very easy to apply, looks like the military finish for several coats, but can be built up, if you desire. Two or three coats will do wonders and will look like an oil finish. Put it on heavy, wait a few minutes, wipe it as dry as you can.All of the oil finishes will do nothing but shrink and require new oil, all the time. If you like putting on oil, do the 66 first, then add dry-rubbed coats as often as you like.Do not buy a big can of the stuff because it only has a shelf life of about 6 months. A little can goes a long way. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Youper, I've touched up/refinished many a milsurp stock with this simple formula; two parts boiled linseed oil, one part turpentine. You will need to shake vigorously each time you use it. This mixture will penetrate, be compatable with the old oils deep in the wood already, dry with-in 36 hours, and bring that old luster back to the wood. Unlike some commercial finishes, this mixture does not seal the wood, which is the way milsurps are normally finished, especially US wood stock rifles. I got this formula from an old Marine Corps gunsmith a number of years ago, he had been using it for many years. Odessa

I had thought about the tung oil, that is what I prefer for interior finishes, but I had speculated the linseed would work better for outdoor items. The local gun store had TruOil, but it was in a spray can. Does it also come as a liquid? I'll have to look into the Varathane 66. I hadn't heard of it before.

All oils are hydrophilic and suck water out of the air. In controled tests, tung oil or linseed oil finished pieces of wood will pick up weight (moisture from the air) faster than raw wood. The 66 will put a small amount of plastic in the wood, which will slow that, and allow an oil finish over the top to look like it is just oil.------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Youper: From A Troll!Sitka is right about Linseed oil and Tung oil being hydroscopic. The major difference is that Tung oil IS a little more waterproof than linseed oil and will not darken the stock as much as linseed oil. Linseed oil in its natural state has a water content of about 6% if I remember right. Now if you boil it you get all the H2O out right?(BLO) Package it, take it home open the can and leave it open and guess what after a couple of hours ....6% water.My guess is that the Tung oil you've been buying up there in the UP, whether it say's Formby's or Minwax or Hope's has somewhere in the title the word 'finish'. If it does you can count your apples it's more varnish than Tung oil. If you want pure Tung oil, Brownell's has it And I have found it at some Pratt & Lambert Paint stores. The standard mix, if you want to duplicate the military look is a 50/50 mix with turpentine and additionally if you can find it, melt a little beeswax in a double boiler and add that to the mix. This will make it a little more waterproof. The Varethane finish is an excellent all-round finish on a new stock ( the Colorado School of Trades uses it in their 'smithing courses) but I have had compatibility problems on old stocks that had been stripped, My problem was that it took forever to dry!(a week between coats) I'm sure it was preparation problem on my part.Additionaly, I have found it extremely hard to find, even in a metropolitan area. I finally wound up special ordering it. Sitka is also right about a shortcut, I use one or two coats of polyurethane varnish, thinned 50%, or Thompsons Water-Lox,unthinned, sanded wet with mineral spirits between coats, and then finish up with a couple of coats of your favorite oil libation( not Budweiser or Mobil)A short note on Michigan demographics and Trolls: Michigan is divided into halves: The Upper Peninsula and the Lower Peninsula. Two entirely different worlds! They are connected only by a bridge, The Mackinaw bridge. Trolls' live under bridges. So anybody who lives in the Lower peninsula is called a Troll. And if you live in the Upper Peninsula your'e a 'Youper', short for a UP'r. To paraphrase; There are only two kinds, them that are Youpers and them that want to be Youpers. ....oaklane

Oaklane The drying trouble related to the varathane 66 is always related to finish which has been opened and not used within 6 mos. Fresh, it will dry rapidly even on wet wood. In the 20 plus years I have been using it, I have never seen, or heard of, a compatibility problem.All of the secret blends and mixes that get thrown in and on a stock are what cause problems down the road. Any drivers, such as turpentine, will evaporate and when the do they create channels down into the wood. Guess what, water in vapor form can get in and out of those channels. It is the changing moisture conditions which cause problems in wood stability. Never thin finish unless it cannot be done full strength. Nothing is as painless, fool-proof and cheap as the 66. There is a reason why so many custom stock makers use the stuff. If used under an oil it will limit the problems they can lead to. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the problem we are seeking to solve a change in the moisture content, and not the content per se? To that end shouldn't the oil, undriven, maintain or stabalize the moisture content once it becomes saturated at this 6% fiqure? Or does it stabalize at some higher number? I think the troll and bridge thing was from "The Billy Goats Gruff."

The 6% figure is anything but consistent. In your area you will see large relative humidity swings through the course of the year, the wood will follow. For grins, weigh a small piece of wood carefully on your powder scale and then reweigh it several times through the year. If you expand the project to about 500-1" walnut cubes, finished every way you can imagine, you will get an idea of what my little research corner looks like. They change an amazing amount. A weight change equals a change in size.In point of fact most oil finishes have varying amounts of varnish in them, and lots of wax. More varnish equals more solvent in the blend, more wax, likewise. Oil is generally the cheapest, best extender for the finish, so is the main ingredient.In the old days, oils were heated to the smoking point to start kicking off a polymerizing reaction, which we refer to as drying. The drying that is done is a result of the solvents leaving. Today the "boiling" is accomplished by means of a variety of catalysts. Not long ago they were heavy metal based ie. the original Japan dryer. Today they are safe, and not heavy metal based.I am trying to write this without getting pedantic or overly technical. Not trying to annoy anyone, but there is more misinformation about finishes for wood than any field I have ever seen. I have done a lot of basic research in the field, comparing lots of secret recipes, etc. Keep it very simple and you will be happy with the results. If you want to wax your wood (great idea) put it on the top, where it belongs. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Sitka, Please don't stop or think you're being over technical. Many of us here enjoy learning the ins and outs of this hobby. Your insight and explainations are invaluable information. Again, please continue. ~MarinePMI

Sitka:Just must of been a bad batch of the Varethane! I ordered from the local jobber and he got it from the distributor. No telling how long it had been setting on the shelf. Used it the same day on a factory stock that I had chemically stripped, sanded and whiskered. Later that week, I used it over a sandable clear sealer for possible use on some furniture. Got the same results. I'll give it a another try!!I agree 100% with your comments on linseed oil and tung oil. I never use them on a sporter stock, period, and rarely on a milsurp, and then only if I'm duplicating an original finish. The formulas that I quoted above for Youper are what the Enfield and Mauser collectors use on their stocks and they are really really touchy about their beloved BLO(boiled linseed oil), if you read any posts on those forums.And no you weren't being overly pedantic or technical, after all thats what these forums are designed for .... the free exchange ideas and hints. After all it's the empirical research(like does it really work?) you and others take the time to do that makes things easier for the rest of us. ...Oakland

Another quick point about oils. If you have ever finished anything with oil, worked yourself into a lather getting the finish perfect, only to go back a couple months later to find all of the pores telegraphing as little dimples, or little pimples, you must realize the oil changed size. Most of the time it is because the oil continued to polymerize and out-gas solvents, thereby shrinking and leaving the little dimples.Take a typical oil "finish" rather than straight oil and do the same thing, then put it some where warm, even months later, and the oil underneath the surface of the finish gets driven out by the heat-induced expansion (generally it is the air in the wood which expands, raw oil only expands a max of 5% over a large temp range, cured much less). There you have your pimples.The polymerizing is an oxidizing reaction, which takes the oxygen from the air. If you put wax in your finish it will inhibit the curing by slowing the movement of the oxygen. Making dimples or pimples more likely.While you can build a nice finish with BLO, it is temporary. On another thread, I believe I was asking for thoughts on rebarreling a 7mm Rem mag to something else, I wrote out my formula for a new stock finish. It uses 66 or Tru-oil over epoxy. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Sitka: You have piqued my interest. Ya gotta give us that formula for epoxy and Varethane. The last time I used an epoxy finish was in 1965 on a customers gun. This finish was touted by all the gun mags as 'bulletproof'! That was two mistakes: A. using a personally untried finishing method on a customers gun and B.,the epoxy itself which had to be water sanded between coats. And of course you know what happened when I sanded thru the epoxy...I raised the grain all over again. If I hadn't water sanded it, the customer would still have been waiting. ...oaklane

Oaklane My father wrote an article in rifle magazine a number of years ago with his version of this. His mistakes were using relatively fast setting epoxy, and thinning it with acetone.Start with a fully sanded stock, heat it in an oven to the point it is hard to hold with bare hands. I like to do it in front of the oven to keep it hot, my wife would prefer I didn't. Use epoxy with a minimum set time of 24 hrs, I use G-1 or G-2 from Industrial Formulators in Toronto, available from Garrett Wade. The latter is a 48 hr set which I use if there is any oily exotic wood in a grip cap or fore end tip. Ebony is fine with either.Mix the glue on a flat board, give it about 20-30 minutes to set, remix very well and apply. I built a rack which uses the action holes to support without touching a finished surface. As the epoxy soaks in, keep putting it on. The cooling wood will suck up a lot of finish. Wipe off any excess.After it sets, block sand with the blue Norzon paper, dry, about 320 usually works to start on any runs or rough spots. Then wet-sand carefully, I use 3m and mineral spirits usually, but don't hesitate to use water. If this goes well there will be no grain raised or bare wood peeking through. It almost never goes well for me, so I repeat the epoxy, but more delicately and I wipe off any which does not soak into the wood. The heating, I believe dries any water which I put in by wetsanding.Then I put a 66 or Tru-oil finish over the epoxy in a normal fashion, no special precautions or sealers. The places to be careful are getting "build" from the epoxy, thereby ruining your nice flat faces and straight lines. Yes, it is a lot of work to get the epoxy just right, but the result is a piece of wood which will sit in 100% humidity at 100F for a week and only pick up the water it takes to saturate the oil finish, without affecting the shape of the wood beneath. No varnish or sealant that I have tested has even come close to the humidity resistance of this finish. It looks and repairs just like the oil finish it is. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

There are many finishes that will work on gunstocks. But inorder to keep that rifle shooting straight you must determine if your local climate will have an effect on the wood. Oil finishes, linseed, are not the best water repelants. All of which has been discussed. What you need to realize is that no matter the finish used it will look only as good as your prep work. The most costly finish on the market will not fix a poor prep job. Sanding takes time power tools help but when it comes to the real fine finish the removal of all sand marks is what you strive for. Then you get down to the fine finish. I have a little tool that I have been using for twenty years that simply can't be beat for sealing up the pores on a gun stock. This tool is usually free if you have a dog. I use a dog bone, thats correct a 3-5 inch portion of a beef shank bone, Cleaned of course and cooked. I steal bones from dogs they clean them up real good. Make sure the bone is free of any leftovers. Grasp the bone in your hand and rub the stock lightly, heavy pressure can leave lines. The rubbing polishes the wood to a gloss. This dosn't take long but care must be taken so as not to leave marks in the wood. I have 10-15 different bones to fit almost all shapes and contours. They never wear out just get better. The bones them selfs begin to shine. I have tried using them on the finish, dosn't work. but on bare wood it's the best final touch before appling finish. Try it you'll see. Your neighbors will think you are weird when they see you out stealing dog bones, mine got used to it. they are just not used to me.Bullwnkl.

As a custom gun builder, I have settled on a formula of 1part Trueoil, 1part minerel spirits an 1partDanish oil(Danish heats it up).....I have substituted Varathene 66 for the trueoil, buy inasmuch as Varathane contains Touinal (SP) a cancer causing carsenagen I backed off of it and the trueoil finish is a oil modified finis and is somewhat harder anyway....It is also thin enouugh to use as a sanding liquid in my formula that allows you to push the oil modified sanding dust back into the wood pores so that you can go witha built up finish or an in the wood finish....There are just two ways to go on gunstocks and that is polyurathane or modified oil finish, and either is exceptable...Warning stright tung,Linseed or other oils are slow drying even with dryers and are not at all waterproof.....Linspeed is linseed oil based with dryers and is a good finish...Trueoil is a modified tung oil with additives and dryers and is the best in my opinnion for a number of reasons..Varathane is nothing more than a polyurathane..very water proof and a nice finish but damn slow to dry and one should wait 48 hrs minimum between coats....Finish has a mind of its own and one man can apply one and another man can't get the desired results, no matter what....Thats why there are so many options...find one that fits you and stay with it...No one finish is better than the other, the secret is in the application...To say otherwise is a lack of experience....------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

I put True Oil on a military Mauser 16 years ago and it still looks great. One thing though, if it is your first time don't make the mistake I did of carefully going over the stock with fine steel wool and then only air blowing the steel burrs off -- take 'em off with a tack-cloth or something! There is nothing more frustrating than seeing little bits (I mean really little -- they're too small to see but show up after the oil is applied) of steel wool stuck in your new finish.

Ray, To suggest that "no one finish is better than another, etc" flies right in the face of any sort of logic. Makes it hard to explain why some finishes are so much more common than others. Besides, simple tests of water resistance show huge differences between finishes. Not to say that taste cannot play a huge part in deciding which finish is best for a particular application.Don't know where you got your descriptions of the various finishes, but most are not close to correct, or rather are simplistic descriptions which miss the point.Have a bit of problem with the concept of using sanding dust to fill the pores. Stocks filled this way stand out because of the complete lack of depth in the finish. It cripples a pretty piece of wood. If light cannot get through the finish to reflect off the wood chatoyancy suffers.Not intending to flame, but suggesting anyone without your opinion lacks experience is decidedly hubristic. art ------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

I have to agree with Sitka. Finishes are absolutely different and some are simply better than others. Having spent a few years making custom furniture I know a little about wood finishes, though I readily admit I'm no expert in this field. One word of caution: read the label. What you think you're buying may not always be what you are in fact buying. Formby's Tung Oil finish is a popular finish for do-it-yourselfers and is a good example. This is not a tung oil finish at all. It is a highly thinned varnish. Now it may in fact contain tung oil (but I'm not sure it does), since varnish consists of oil and resin, but it is not a true tung oil finish. For the most part I would say that most finishes are properly labeled, but some are simply not. You may see some simply labeled "Clear Wood Finish". In this case you can find out what it is by determining what it is that is used to thin it or to clean it up. If it requires mineral spirits, naptha, turpentine, paint thinner, etc.., it is probably a varnish. If it calls for acetone or other alcohol based thinners it is more than likely lacquer.

Interesting thread. Now I have a question...I am about ready to apply a finish to my turkish mauser. I had planned on using Tung oil. Is this still an "ok" finish or should I use something else like the Varathane. The thread is good, but I am now confused over which finish to use. I am planning on keeping the rifle, and using it for hunting once in a while.

I have staying out of the fray since my initial post, but I don't see any reason not to use Tung Oil if that is what you have on hand. My personal preference is TruOil, but with the right effort, you will get good results with Tung Oil. I think the TruOil might give you a little harder finish, but the difference is probably moot on an old military stock. I would rule out, if it was my gun, both Varathane and linseed oil. My rationale? Linseed oil, in my experience, never completly dries and eventually gets very dark. With regard to the Varathane, it is purely personal preference. I just plain like the "look" of an oil finish. My dad has been a gunsmith for going on thirty years. I have been around the shop for most of that time. He uses TruOil for just about all stock refinish jobs unless the customer specifies otherwise. In response to your earlier question about TruOil, it does come in a wipe on form. If you can't find anything but the spray locally, check out <A HREF="http://www.brownells.com." TARGET=_blank>www.brownells.com.</A>------------------ Stush

Sitka Deer, I have been building Custom Rifles for 40 years..My base price on a gun is $5000.00 and I sell every one I can build....and I'll stand behind that statment with the understanding that I was talking to knowledgable people.....I was referring to Varathane, Trueoil, Linspeed, and thoes excepted finishes that one can get from Brownells for instance and everyone has one of thoes finishes that works better for him than the other for one reason or the other....One is as good as the other, when properly applied...To imply that wet sanding and pushing the dust back into the pores of the wood shows a total lack of understanding wood finishing of gunstocks on your part and I suggest a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...That has been an excepted practice by all Custom gun builders for the last century and it works for a high gloss or an in the wood finish...It will waterproof a stock and is easy to repair...You sound like a real chemist and have a great knowledge of finishes, but I have a hunch you are a furniture maker, not a custom gun builder...Also no flame, but your approach disagrees with 99% of the members of the Custom Gun Guild.....and is a complete turn around from the schools we teach on stock finishing...------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

Ray Sorry I didn't get back to your post sooner, but I just had to go on a hunting and fishing vacation in Hawaii...It is rough.You have repeated a number of dead wrong statements which show a lack of research on your part about finishes.You state that a sanded oil finish will "waterproof" a stock. In addition to reducing luster, it does not, in any way, with any finish you listed, increase, nor decrease water resistance. I have repeated the test under control a number of times, and have documented the results. One need not be a chemist to prove it to himself. Nor do you need to be a chemist to understand that "modified oil finish" describes virtually every product on the market. Finished blocks of wood with sanded vs. unsanded finishes are easy to make and will show exactly what I mean. If you cheat and rub the oil off, with more oil, after sanding, as most builders do, it is not actually leaving sanding dust in the wood pores and will not kill the luster as much. I have built furniture on occasion, but have never used the epoxy and oil finish on it, because it is not needed. I have plenty of stocks to be proud of, behind me, though I do not do it for a living, or even for non-family. If I did it for a living I would have been too busy working to have spent the time figuring out which "old stockmaker's" finishes were worth using."Straight Tung oil dries slow even with dryers and is not waterproof," yet Truoil is the "best," according to your post. Guess what? Truoil is mostly tung, with dryers that are of greater detriment in the finished product than straight Tung without the dryers and wax and minimal polyurethane resin used to formulate Truoil.I assume, when you were speaking of the Varathane product, you were speaking of 66, since that is the finish I was refering to. If you have had trouble with it drying, you had old oil, and/or very high relative humidity, which is not likely in your neck of the woods. By the way, it is not "nothing more than polyurethane" as you stated. It is a polyurethane resin, solvent, oil and dryer combination, remarkably like thin Truoil in the final analysis, with nearly identical water resistance.Stock finish techniques have changed very little in the past, and makers continue to ignore the basic fact that wood will move when it changes moisture content. Look at the finest stocks being made today, a year later, the figure will have telegraphed through the finish. This is absolutely a result of a change in water content in the wood. (stocks which have not changed, have stayed at a constant relative humidity)Many members of the stockmakers guilds still believe glass-bedding is heresy. They would laugh at a typical "hog out and fill" bedding job. I laugh at the cornerstone of their finishes because my guns see weather wood cannot tolerate. art ------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Sorry Sitka, I disagree with your total analysis, and will go with my finishes and the Custom Gun Guilds methods....I don't know where you came up with that line of horse hockey but I think you believe it and thats your choice...If You read the directions on Phil Pilkintons or any other stock finish in Brownells catalog you will see slight variences in them or mine for that matter...If one wet sands the mud back into the pores and fills the pores to seal the wood and the finish shines, you just knock the shine off to whatever degree you need...The finishes you describe are glossy, cheap looking and are in fact somewhat more waterproof if done properly, but in time they will craze, like a Weatherby..........I'll go my way and you go yours, as we arn't going to agree on the issue, so no use pushing it....Lets just agree to disagree..------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

Ray, You amazed me with your reply here. I simply told of a finish I use which is anything but a Weatherby catalyzed lacquer abomonation.The thing I like about it is it cannot be told from the oil finish it is, yet it is virtually waterproof. It will not ever craze, is as easy to repair as an oil finish, and is significantly more weatherproof than any finish you have ever used.The primary difference between your view and mine is that I have seen your finishes fail. I have never seen one of mine fail, and more to the point, you have not seen one of mine, let alone having seen one fail.I do not in any way expect you to accept what I say, nor do anything like check it out. However, to crudely compare it to a glossy thick finish proves you weren't listening to what I said.And, by the way, those old eggshell luster oil finishes are, to me, the prettiest things going. That does not include the wet sanded finishes which are flat because of it. I think my finishes rival the best in look and beat them badly in function.No ill will intended, or felt. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Hey this is a pretty good pizzen match you guys got goin here. I have to agree with Sitka. Ray your 5 grand guns are no doubt worthy of their price. However their stock would become just so much fire wood if used on Washingtons Olympic Penninsula for an extended period of time. I am a proponent of a finish called Duro Coat it is a boat deck finish that is extreamly water resistant(nothing is waterproof if it is wood) and provides a very nice finish. The jury is still out on it's longivity, so far so good. I have several rifles out with this finish and have yet to see one craze or allow gun to change point of inpact, stocks are not absorbing moisture. But as I said before and I'll say it again prep work is every thing in getting a finish that looks good. The custom gun guild is like the folks who vote on the Heiseman Trophy, they are too set in their ways to look at other ways of doing things, or so it appears.Besides name dropping such groups is like saying you once met some one famous, so what.Bullwnkl.

Well fellows, I suspect I have hunted in more climates than most in this here world and I'm satisfied, hunting is my business and so are guns, I'm satisfied with the finishes the top gunbuilders in the nation today are using and I just have more confidence in them and my experiences than I do yours.....I still think your furniture builders (grin)....I'm not dropping names these people are my neighbors and friends, I asked Pete Grissel and Jack Belk today about your posts and they disagree with you...------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

Glad I stayed out of this ... not that I had anything of value to add. Just want to say thanks for what I think has been a great education, and at a real bargain price, to boot! Lead this horse to water and he will not die of thirst. LC

Well, I think the point of this discussion is not what you use for a finish, but the application of the finish...There are a lot of good finishes out there today and most of them work if properly applied....An example is 50% True oil/50% Mineral Spirits when the first soaking coat goes on and it won't take any more, then it needs 10 days to cure, at which point it becomes harder than woodpecker lips, then you wet sand the surface and rub the mud cross grain lightly untill all pores are filled, then wipe on, wipe off until your satisfied....It has withstood the vigors of Siberia, Alaska, and the flood plains of Botswana on my rifles...I'm not really condeming your finish and if it satisfys you thats what counts, but I just am saying your not the last words in stock finishing....Gun Guild members are not set in there ways, they are a culmination of the finest gunbuilders in the history of gunmaking who pool thier experience and share thier knowledge to create the best there is, I don't see how that can be downgraded as per the above post.------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

Ray, I didn't intend to "downgrade" anyone's methods here, sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm in no position to pass judgement on ANYBODY's methods in regard to stock finishing. Though I've been dabbling in it for quite a while, I believe most of those who have posted on this thread have experience beyond my own, and I feel priviledged to have learned something from all of you. Thanks again. LC

LC, Not necessary, I was directing my post to Sitka Deer, and since he and I are beating our heads on a stump, I think I'll go play with someone else, he's a naughty boy!!------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by atkinson: Well fellows, I suspect I have hunted in more climates than most in this here world and I'm satisfied, hunting is my business and so are guns, I'm satisfied with the finishes the top gunbuilders in the nation today are using and I just have more confidence in them and my experiences than I do yours.....I still think your furniture builders (grin)....I'm not dropping names these people are my neighbors and friends, I asked Pete Grissel and Jack Belk today about your posts and they disagree with you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Carefull about the furniture builders as there is furniture that has been around and in use for continusley for hundreds of years taking much more abuse than gun stocks. There is always those of us who will be out side of approved and accepted norms, remember when the earth was flat, well we, the unwashed, have the audacity to question the accepted, man can't breath at speeds over 15mph(remember that one)? And yes the mother of invention raises her head from time to time and the accepted convention is challenged. The point is not to condemn but to question and examine new possibilities. what works for you may not be what works for me or what I want. After all an expert is only a former drip under pressure. Bullwnkl.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by atkinson: Well fellows, I suspect I have hunted in more climates than most in this here world and I'm satisfied, hunting is my business and so are guns, I'm satisfied with the finishes the top gunbuilders in the nation today are using and I just have more confidence in them and my experiences than I do yours.....I still think your furniture builders (grin)....I'm not dropping names these people are my neighbors and friends, I asked Pete Grissel and Jack Belk today about your posts and they disagree with you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ray, have no doubt that you are a very fine rifle builder as are your friends. I have met and tried to deal with a couple of Guild members on having a custom rife built, I found them too be primadonnas. So I have had a not so good experience.So far it's two for two. As for this debate, in the inspection business we inspectors have a little saying " Arguing with an inspector is like mud wrestling with a pig, you soon learn the pig likes it. [Linked Image]

Bullwnkl.

bullwnkl Thanks for the vote of confidence. In the near future I will post some photos of some of my stocks. Probably just do a couple dozen to show the progression of the process over the last 30 years, with some to show how good they do look.It's hard for a guy to accept in part because it obviously takes a lot of extra work getting the epoxy just right.I've known a number of guild members over the years, some are fine fellows. best to you art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sitka deer: bullwnkl Thanks for the vote of confidence. In the near future I will post some photos of some of my stocks. Probably just do a couple dozen to show the progression of the process over the last 30 years, with some to show how good they do look.It's hard for a guy to accept in part because it obviously takes a lot of extra work getting the epoxy just right.I've known a number of guild members over the years, some are fine fellows. best to you art<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Art I have used so many finishes on gun stocks that I have forgotten what they all were I have made my own. I like a mix of old fashoned spar varnish, bee's wax and turpinetine on my muzzle loaders, it leaves a very mellow finish but is not too water resistant. Currently i am using a product intended for custom boat decks called "Dura-Coat" mixed with tuolene makes a vary nice finish, breathing apparatus should be worn when using.This finish is as close to water "proof" as any thing I have used. My guns and almost all that I finish are subjected to very wet conditions of the Olympic Penninsula rain forest. When I lived in SE Alaska I had a 308 Norma Mag in a Sako, this gun was so weather sensitive that it was virtually useless. Would have been a great rifle in Idaho.The wood was so unstable that free floating the forearm did no good. I refinished the stock two times using Truoil and Linspeed it made no difference. got rid of that one. I think the folks who are so set in their ways just have never faced the problems that we have ie: wet weather and wet cold weather. enough tirade, take care.Jim Bullwnkl.

Art one more thought on this subject, I see where Ray is comming from he follows the path well traveled for a reason. Or should that be 5000 reasons. For him to vary from the rightious path and try some thing new would jepordize the time honored methods developed by the Guild and thus his guns would not have that conformity so expected when one lays out five grand for his new one of a kind rifle. We gotta respect tradition. We just don't have to follow it.Bullwnkl.shoot straight, shoot often, and stay dry

Bullwnkl, You just may be correct in that assumption, hadn't given it much thought and I am the ultimate traditionalist in the old school of gunmaking, both in metal and wood...My guns still have egg cheekpieces, short forends, drop box magazines 1/4 ribs, barrelband swivels and iron sights,rust blue, and leather covered recoil pads....Hell I don't even adhere to the American Classic design of stock as its just too modern for my soul, and doesn't lend itself to iron sights well.------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by atkinson: Bullwnkl, You just may be correct in that assumption, hadn't given it much thought and I am the ultimate traditionalist in the old school of gunmaking, both in metal and wood...My guns still have egg cheekpieces, short forends, drop box magazines 1/4 ribs, barrelband swivels and iron sights,rust blue, and leather covered recoil pads....Hell I don't even adhere to the American Classic design of stock as its just too modern for my soul, and doesn't lend itself to iron sights well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ray you build my dream rifle, every thing you have described is on my dream rifles list. I even want a traditional caliber 30/06. The issue of stock finish is one that strikes close to home. I agree with Sitka because of the weather conditions that are prevelant on the North Pacific Coast, Cold and wet. I know you have hunted in wet climes and traveled extensivley, but you live in a dry climate. Here in lies what I see as the major difference. My climate is always damp and good wood here is laminated due to it's stability or "god forbid plastic." My guns are acclimated to this region. Wood has a tollerance to water absorbtion before it begins to swell. In wet climes we are much closer to that tolerance level than dry climes. So water resistance to us is of extreme importance. I have two stocks on a Sako one plastic for hunting one very nice ,unstable wood for show. I have found the the nicer the wood with lots of figgure is the hardest to keep from moving. I use straight grain as much as possible. As far as sealing the grain I have been rubbing stocks with bone once finish sanded. This closes up the pores by compressing the outer layer of wood. It's not easy to do right but makes for a very nice surface to apply finish on, finish of choise of course.I would love to see one of your rifles do you have the ability to post pictures on the net?Bullwnkl.

Bullwinkl, I can't post photos, but I'll get someone who can to do it, when I can get some time, in the near future.I can't argue your post, and I certainly agree that the stright grain layout is the only way to go on a real hunting rifle, and the use of nearly poreless wood that is sho nuff dry, such as Turkish walnut helps a lot also....I'm a fan of laminated wood and I have all the lesser qualitity Turkish I get laminated with the bad color inside and the pretty stuff outside, really makes a pretty stock and as good as you can get....I do use a plastic finish on the laminated wood, usually Varathane 66 or the two part stuff....and then when it gets built up I knock off the shine with rotten stone and oil....I cannot stand shiney wood, but shiney wood is the most waterproof, no doubt...but "good wood" is near as good as laminate, if its dry and properly cured and then sealed and finished properly, I have had no problems with mine, over the years and they have not changed POI in several years.... ------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

Ray and Art I believe we got us a tie here. Neither one of you or my self really use a traditional finish and all finishes work. None of us has any problems with craze in the finish, stock warpage dosn't seem to be a problem and we all are justly proud of our work. There are a great many factors that dictate why we do what we do with our stocks. I am probably the farthest from tradition in my choise of finish material but am also, I believe, closest to tradition in prep work. Ray as I stated in an earlier posting you have the most to lose by changing from what you know works, Art you have the cognative ability and desire to expirement in a controlled method and environment, me I just expirement with nothing to lose but my labor, and we all have a finish that we use. Looks to me we got us a tie. Now I gota go steal me some more dog bones to work on my stocks. Bullwnkl.

Art and Sitka get my vote for being the most grown-up folks I've read in a discussion board -- to disagree like that and not get ****y about it shows a lot of maturity.I do have a thought that Bulwnkle prompted regarding weather sensitive wood: it seems that if you take a piece of wood that is not totally dry and then seal it completely, even if no water can get in, won't temperature changes cause the wood to expand and contract and thus bend with the grain because of the moisture that is already inside the stock? If this is a phenomena that occurs it would seem that proper drying of stock blanks would be a factor in making a great wood stock. Then again, what do I know?

Erik Thanks for the compliment, I'm sure Mr Atkinson would have liked to choke me a time or two there in the discussion, but we did make it through.To your question about wood changing size with temperature, actually it does almost no longitudinal changing, and extremely little lateral movement. Enough that a pressure point type fore end might react a tiny bit, but most of that would be a result of the metal moving, as it does more changing than wood. The exact numbers are basically fluff, but the idea is that wood gets dry to a fairly uniform point without changing size, then starts changing like crazy, only to slow down and stop moving when it gets real dry.Understand that I am refering, as you stipulated, to very well sealed wood. If the wood is not very nearly water-proof, all bets are off in the stability arena. But those changes are a result of a size change induced by a change in water content, not temp. Rambled a bit here and have a kid hollering at me to get in the hot tub, so I gotta run. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

I make boats, fiber-glass boats, and we see that even completely man made products can and do absorb water. Point is no matter what you use as a finish it is likely that some amount of moisture will penetrate, you are simply trying to slow the process down enough to use the gun while it is exposed to the elements, then remove it from said elements when the hunt is over. On a related subject Sitka Deer, would you think that an isiothalic based resin would work as a base using MEKP as a catalyst??? Then you could finish it with whatever oil you prefer.

Wish I could answer that, but my testing has been limited to epoxy and various polyester resins. Am not familiar with that terminology for any of the resins I've used. You are right about the difficulty in keeping tupper-ware boats from wicking through the gel coat, but with a stock finish you are dealing with a smaller, more easily controlled surface. It works amazingly well. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Isothalic resin is in the polyester family and will cross link naturally but takes years. By using Methel Ethel Keytone Peroxide, MEKP, along with other chemicals in much lesser proportions you can speed up that process to minutes. The reason I ask is because I have access to it from my work place, by way of clear gel coat. Do you think thinning it with acetone would have a negative effect, because in it's natural state it is quite thick? I'm only talking like 10-15%.

Would not use the acetone because it evaporates and leaves tiny holes in the process. When used in epoxy to coat wood the result is a finish which does a good job of sealing the wood, but nothing like as good as unthinned epoxy. art ------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Just bringing this to the top for ease of locating it, should anyone be looking, as a result of JJ's question on the big game thread. art

Sitka Deer:Riggggghttt. You might as well admit it, you like stirring the pot, and I don't mean gumbo. LOL

SSSSSHHHHH!!!!! Don't blow what little cover I might have! art

Sitka Deer:You've got about as much cover as some of those dancers in those all nude bars that I HEAR they have in the big cities. If I ever get to a big city I will give you a further report, purely for intellectual investigative purposes, of course. If you pay the bar tab, I would give you my notes and photos and maybe you could write an article on it, something like "Nudity Exposed".