I do not post here much but often read and learn. It is obvious that I am hard headed or slow to learn because I was stupid and decided to send J White Gunsmithing of Guilford, Maine a Cz Bobwhite 12 ga. for conversion to 45-120-3.25 double rifle. I did my research and thought I was on solid ground. After in excess of four years and 3000 USD later, I received the finished product. At least he made a new mono-block and left the original 12 ga. alone.
If anyone is contemplating using J. White please contact me. If you have had a bad experience with him please contact the Maine Attorney General - Consumer Mediation Service
If anyone is contemplating using J. White please contact me. If you have had a bad experience with him please contact the Maine Attorney General - Consumer Mediation Service
mauser416,
My sympathies for the mess that so called gunsmith made of your gun and money.
At least most of the snakes in maine are not reptiles!
I have hunted and 'camped' in the mud in maine as I am not all that far away. Thinking about maine and the fact that the residents can hunt opening day but I can't, the mud, the ugly woods with the slashings, the lack of deer and the mainers shooting stuff all year round out of the window its a place I am going to avoid.
![[Linked Image]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_K6wcCxGz4Jg/Sbuk_IeKi9I/AAAAAAAAAb0/Xq_k7VCoWp4/s400/mud.jpg)
My sympathies for the mess that so called gunsmith made of your gun and money.
At least most of the snakes in maine are not reptiles!
I have hunted and 'camped' in the mud in maine as I am not all that far away. Thinking about maine and the fact that the residents can hunt opening day but I can't, the mud, the ugly woods with the slashings, the lack of deer and the mainers shooting stuff all year round out of the window its a place I am going to avoid.
Rear sight looks like it came off a 10-22.
Wow! Look at the under lugs. Have you actually ever shot it? I don't think I would. Rear sight appears in good shape and might be useable. Not sure about the rest of it.
Jim supposedly worked up several loads on the way to regulation. Based on the load data he gave me the regulating rounds were at about 38,000 psi but he never provided a picture of him firing the gun as promised.
I'm not shooting it, I really don't even want to be seen with it.
I'm not shooting it, I really don't even want to be seen with it.
Mauser416 I've seen some of Jim's work that I thought was very good but that looks like something I would have done. Can't say I blame you for being put out.
Apparently he has now shutdown his web page. I received the 404-page not found message when I tried to go there moments ago.
My condolences regarding a dreadful outcome. It would take some real chutzpah to send that off to someone as an example of your work.
Well, now that he has sent it I cannot get in touch with him. No answer to phone messages or e-mails. I did manage to talk with his wife and she acknowledged that Jim received my certified letter asking for my money back.
In all my years of gunsmithing, I've never seen such sh-t as this!!! This is unbelievable, I am sitting here speechless, just shaking my head. Good God!!!! You better get your money back!!! Don't try to shoot him with his product, don't believe you could hit him at 30 paces!!! So sad for you.
From his web site, he appears to be a general gunsmith, not a double gun builder. Wonder why he even tackled a project he obviously couldn't handle. And to the OP, where did you find this guy and what made you think he could do this job?
Check James Flynn Gunsmith on line. You'll see what a real double gun smith looks like and see his work. That type work is very specialized and not something a down the road, neighborhood gun mechanic should be tackling.
The welding and work on the gun shown looks like a trade school welding class project that went wrong, not the work of a master gunsmith.
IMHO,
DF
Check James Flynn Gunsmith on line. You'll see what a real double gun smith looks like and see his work. That type work is very specialized and not something a down the road, neighborhood gun mechanic should be tackling.
The welding and work on the gun shown looks like a trade school welding class project that went wrong, not the work of a master gunsmith.
IMHO,
DF
Back when I started this project in 2008 I only found two or three folks doing the work. They were all so backed up that they were unwilling to take additional projects. Jim had already made a few conversions by then. Jim was also backed up and explained it would be a while before he could start my conversion. Since I traveled overseas quite a bit for extended durations back then he agreed to take my rifle and notify me before he started work. One of the folks he did work for was kind enough to give a reference. Jim also had a four or five part series on converting shotguns to double rifles on You Tube. He posted a separate video addressing some of the issues associated with the process.
Given this Jim seemed like an acceptable choice. I didn't expect anything more than a reliable, utilitarian gun.
Given this Jim seemed like an acceptable choice. I didn't expect anything more than a reliable, utilitarian gun.
Originally Posted by mauser416
I didn't expect anything more than a reliable, utilitarian gun.
Hopefully you didn't tell good ol' Jim that.
Some of the gals I dated in my youth didn't look that good, but a bore was a bore. It wasn't until later when I developed taste that I sought something prettier. Until then, the ugly ones served a purpose. They were reliable and utilitarian. Of course I didn't have to pay for them. If I was going to shell out money, they would have had to have most of their own teeth, be able to get in and out of the back of the truck on their own, and be able to carry on at least a partial, legible conversation. Just kidding... talking wasn't required.
Anyway, did good ol' Jim test fire it? Tell good ol' Jim that you are going to do some YouTube advertising for him. Tell him you are going to do a video destruction test. Maybe you'll get your money back or most of it. If you get your money back AND get to keep the thing, and that's what I would call it, after a series of tree stump internal ballistics tests, you may end up with a reliable and utilitarian gun after all. Though you may have to place a bag over it so you don't have to look at it. Good luck!
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
The welding and work on the gun shown looks like a trade school welding class project that went wrong, not the work of a master gunsmith.
If only it were weld. It looks like he used plumbers solder. In fact it resembles a soil stack. Gives the term "Gun Plumber" a whole new meaning.
I have a short YouTube presentation with the photos. Jim doesn't answer his shop phone and doesn't respond to e-mails. I was able to talk to his wife by calling the number for the firearms safety/maintenance course listed on his web page. She said Jim was trying to figure out a way to make this right. He has had several phone calls and e-mails from supportive folks out there. He has stopped answering the phone and reading e-mail as a consequence.
Jim said he worked up the regulating load and mentioned several a few different. The last one was about 38,0oo psi according to QuickLoad.
![[Linked Image]](http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg625/mauser416/DSC00332.jpg)
The right side of the extractor looks as if it broke off.
The right side of the extractor looks as if it broke off.
It's appalling to look at for sure. Send a registered letter and contact the BBB in his area. Even if he isn't a member of the BBB, they keep records of complaints. Let him know he needs to keep the lines of communication open with you.
How long have you had the gun back?
How long have you had the gun back?
I received the rifle the last week of May. I have filed with the BBB and they have sent him a copy of my complaint. I have been in ongoing discussions with the Maine AG since Oct 2011. On June 4 he signed for my certified letter informing him that the terms or our agreement weren't met and that I was concerned about the integrity of the original action. I also sent him a copy of an appraisal written by Cal Pappas of Calpappas.com stating the the work was poor and the gun unsafe to paraphrase the letter. The letter states I wanted my money back within 30 days of receipt. Still nothing from Jim. The Maine AG has a copy of the letter and the appraisal by Mr. Pappas.
If this was my deal and he was hiding and not answering the phone, he'd be getting a registered letter from my attorney.
IMHO,
DF
IMHO,
DF
Dirtfarmer,
That starts at about $5000 and goes up. Things become complicated when he is in Maine and I am in Texas. That's just to bring the case and win. Even if I win the judgment getting the money is another potentially costly matter. Maybe he knows this and maybe this is the reason for his conduct.
The are still courses of action to take. They all take time though. There are certain steps which must be taken and have to be documented.
That starts at about $5000 and goes up. Things become complicated when he is in Maine and I am in Texas. That's just to bring the case and win. Even if I win the judgment getting the money is another potentially costly matter. Maybe he knows this and maybe this is the reason for his conduct.
The are still courses of action to take. They all take time though. There are certain steps which must be taken and have to be documented.
Well, I guess you'll just have to press him with the BBB and the Atty. Genl's office.
If he had been doing good work, then puts something like this out, I wonder if he may be drinking, having psychological problems, etc. A call from him letting you know there was a problem and not just sending out a horrible piece of work, raises my suspicion.
Generally gun folks are pretty up standing and straight, at least in my experience.
I think we all feel your pain. Hope you get some relief.
Hang in there.
DF
Edited to add, if you get the itch to do another such project, check out Jim Clark in Shreveport. He does some great work, turning shotguns into double rifles.
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/double_rifle.html
If he had been doing good work, then puts something like this out, I wonder if he may be drinking, having psychological problems, etc. A call from him letting you know there was a problem and not just sending out a horrible piece of work, raises my suspicion.
Generally gun folks are pretty up standing and straight, at least in my experience.
I think we all feel your pain. Hope you get some relief.
Hang in there.
DF
Edited to add, if you get the itch to do another such project, check out Jim Clark in Shreveport. He does some great work, turning shotguns into double rifles.
http:/
All,
After leaving a voice mail I received and e-mail from Mr. White. It appears that we may have reached a solution agreeable to both of us.
I had originally requested a refund within 30 days of his receipt of my certified letter. Jim has informed me that he will try to gather the necessary funds within 30 days but may need up to 60 days to do so.
While this story is not yet complete I find it to be a good sign that Mr. White has contacted me and appears to be willing to make things right.
Eric
After leaving a voice mail I received and e-mail from Mr. White. It appears that we may have reached a solution agreeable to both of us.
I had originally requested a refund within 30 days of his receipt of my certified letter. Jim has informed me that he will try to gather the necessary funds within 30 days but may need up to 60 days to do so.
While this story is not yet complete I find it to be a good sign that Mr. White has contacted me and appears to be willing to make things right.
Eric
Sounds like he's trying to make it right, which beats the heck out of a long drawn out fight with questionable results.
Did he give any explanation of what happened, why he sent out
work in this condition?
DF
Did he give any explanation of what happened, why he sent out
work in this condition?
DF
I had an experience similar to yours several years ago. A guy that advertized nationally was going to put a rifled barrel on my Remington 870 shotgun. After getting the runaround for a couple of years I filed a complaint with his state's AG. Seems he'd screwed several people over th the point the AG was going to file a class action suit. Long story short, I never got any money back and one day completely unannounced my shotgun showed up on my gunsmith's doorstep. It had never been taken out of the box I had shipped it in much less been worked on. The guy was a total lying POS and I felt lucky to get my gun back. Caveat emptore applies in spades when dealing with gunsmiths and special projects. Do lots of research, ask to see examples of work and talk to previous customers. A shop visit will reveal lots if close enough.
the fact that you have been a member here since 2001 and have some 16 post speaks volumes to me... looks like you are getting a seriously raw deal...
I hope you have posted this on a number of other boards including the double gun BBS where the info would be greatly appreciated (I don't read over there as much as I should so if you posted already, I apologize for bringing it up)
I hope you have posted this on a number of other boards including the double gun BBS where the info would be greatly appreciated (I don't read over there as much as I should so if you posted already, I apologize for bringing it up)
lovemy99,
I posted on the forums that I typically lurk around. There is so much to learn here that typically I lurk and take notes. There have been a few greybeards that have taken me under their wings during this latest journey. I owe them a special debt of gratitude but also must thank all who have been supportive, provided advice and then contacted J White Gunsmithing on my behalf. I truly think that resolution would not have been possible without the help of the web community. My refund is in the works so for that I am grateful. Once this too has come to pass I will be able to let this go and move on to finding my first DR.
Eric
I posted on the forums that I typically lurk around. There is so much to learn here that typically I lurk and take notes. There have been a few greybeards that have taken me under their wings during this latest journey. I owe them a special debt of gratitude but also must thank all who have been supportive, provided advice and then contacted J White Gunsmithing on my behalf. I truly think that resolution would not have been possible without the help of the web community. My refund is in the works so for that I am grateful. Once this too has come to pass I will be able to let this go and move on to finding my first DR.
Eric