I've got a Ruger #1V that is tormenting me. On the one hand, it is a very accurate rifle that turns in 5/8" groups with 40 grain V-Maxs. On the other hand it seems to have problems with point of impact shifts. I was at a sniper shoot on the weekend and over the course of 52 rounds fired over half an hour I had to make scope adjustments no less than ten times. Further, it seemed to be good for a couple shots and then move all at once. It certainly seems to be a bedding issue. Is this the kind of thing that a Hicks accurizer can correct? I've also seen an article about drilling and tapping the foreend hanger for a set screw. Has anyone tried this and does it work as well? Any other #1 accuracy advice would be great as well.
Thanks,
Chuck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
If you're getting 5/8" groups with consistency, I'd say the #1 was doing about as good as they normally do. If the POI was shifting that much, I'd swap scopes and go test your results.
Funny you mention switching scopes. I've already swapped a different one on, I just haven't gotten to the range yet. I can't say that I have any reason to suspect the scope. I just figure its the easiest thing to check. Hopefully that the problem though, it's a much easier and straightforward fix.
Chuck
If you can swing the Hicks Accurizer, install it. It certainly can help accuracy and won't hurt it. I have a Number 1 in 22 Hornet that drove me crazy getting it to shoot. Finally had the hanger drilled and tapped for a screw to fit up against the bottom of the barrel to tune it. It shoots now. Had I known about the Hicks, I would have gone with it. I had a Moyer's trigger put in too.
Don
DMB, how much difference did it make when you drilled and tapped the hanger? For that matter what did your gunsmith charge? Have you tried any bedding work on your Hornet?
I can get an accurizer but I'm in Canada and it can be a bit on an inconvenience to get parts from the U.S. I've got an order from Brownells that was shipped on February 1 that I haven't seen yet and I shouldn't expect it for a week or two more. Three cheers for Liberal government. Hopefully we can kick them out of parliament real soon.
Chuck
Chuckieboy,
I have a Hicks on a #1 Rem 223, & I had a gun smith drill & tap my #1, 6mm ( for $100). They both really make a difference. I don't get the "horzinal walking" I use to get.
What's nice about both of them, is you can really tune in your load.
I also had a Kepplinger trigger put on both of them, after I got tired of trying the others triggers, & adjustments. Once you shoot one with a Kepplinger, you'll save until you get one.
Chestsprings, do you find the drill and tap routine to be just as good as the Hicks?
I'm sure I'd like the load tuning and my POI shifts were almost entirely windage so it sounds like that might be what I need.
As for that Kepplinger I'd love to have one but they sure have gotten pricey. I missed a great deal on one on Ebay last year. I'm still kicking myself over that. I think you're right though. Once I get my rifle shooting the way I want I'll probably start saving for one.
Chuck
The Hick's unit certainly stopped the wandering zero on my No.1A 7X57. So far, I'm impressed. In addition, group size has shrunk a little. This is with only 1/4 turn of of the screw after contact with the barrel. I've been told that the group's will shrink more with a couple of turns or so. I haven't been back to the range to give it try. The rifle already shot well enough for my needs group wise, I'm just tickeled that all those 1" groups now land in the same place! Good product, but on my next No.1, I'd like to do it at home with a simple screw through the hanger.
Jeff
Chuckieboy,
Yes, on the drill & tap method. I like it better as there is not the extra "piece", but the Hicks works as well.
As mentioned, less than a quarter turn will "tune a load ". I have taken all pressure off-turned the screw all the way out-, then start turning it in, & shooting. At 100 yrs, you can see the the groups in the target move- neat.
I have shot my rifles, & got some good groups ( 3 shots at 100 yrs that can be covered by a nickle) . My eyes are not as good as my sons, & I have some targets they shot that are something.
I have released the screw all the way, then shoot again, then start turning it in again, & watch the group change locations on the target. I think it's neat. Will really show you, just how a little pressure on a barrel will have such a huge impact at 100 yds.
I wish I had the expertise & equipt. that Charlie Sisk, Ken Howell, or JB have, as I can think of a lot of things that I find interesting to experiment with. That's why I like 24 hr. campfire. Lots of knowledgeable people ( & some who think they are).
By the way my #1, 6mm ( my deer rifle) has a 22 3/4 inch Pac_Nor, over all length of the rifle is 37 1/2 inches. Why 22 3/4 inches ?, well, I first I bought a Alumn gun case, inside was 38 inches, so I had the gun made to fit the case. As you can see, I always don't do things rationally.
I hope some day you get a Kepplinger trigger. You will really appreciate it.
I have never tried the Hicks device. Many just insert a rubber washer on the foreend stock screw and that works for them... I have not found that it does everything needed to make that complex #1 design stable.
Most of my #1s, over a dozen from .22 Hornet to .375 H&H, have the set screw and a full accruzing package -- trigger and quarter rib work, a Wolf speed spring, free floating the wood from the barrel... They hold POI year in, year out. ( Four of mine are in factory condition and shoot very well. They are all newer production, Maybe Ruger is tweaking them a bit? Two have laminate stocks, two are rifles I have barely got to know but are so far reliable.)
Chuckieboy's problem, a wandering POI, in my view is due to wood metal contact due to temp changes. In competition, as you shoot a lot, wait, and the move around, your barrel heats and cools. It makes diffferent contacts with the stock, hence the POI shift of the group. Even in the VT barrel, the wood moves with heat changes as it takes on humidity and swells. A heavy barrel stays cool longer but also stores heat longer.
Stringing in one general direction that gets worse over time in a protracted range session with a #1 is more likely to be excessive wood-metal contact on one side of the barrel chamber.
Free floating and a good wood sealing seem in order. (If your rfle doesn't like it, you can always puit the foreend 'hump' back in w/epoxy.)
The hanger/barrel harmonic problem, that the set scew adresses, and aberent spring fall harmonics tend to give erratic accuracy within a group, not shifting POIs of a tight group.
But YMMV as the Yoga from Paradise says....
Good Luck,
1b
What I'm hearing is very encouraging. For me it's probably more convenient to do the drill and tap routine than to get a Hicks Accurizer. I've got a Wolff striker spring on the way and free floating is easy enough to do. I've got one article by Ross Seyfried where he sort of semi floated the foreend. Wood to metal contact was eliminated including the pressure tip but then he put a 1/2" wide strip of epoxy down a few inches of the barrel channel. Has anyone ever gone to this kind of measure or is a simple floating all it seems to take?
Chuck
Chuck
Chuck,
The tension screw will most likely address both problems at once. POI shifts, as well as erratic groups. The screw tension will allow you to "tune" the barrel, and if you use more than a 1/4 to 1/2 turn of tension, your forend will be mostly free floated on it's own, as you'll be pushing the forend away from the barrel. When I do my next No.1, my plan is to drill & tap a hanger screw, and then shoot the rifle with the forearm "free floated" using the rubber washer trick. After that, I'll glass bed the forearm to the hanger, to where I have a close, but free floating forearm. I don't care for the huge gap between the barrel and forearm that a couple of turns of the screw creates. Just a personal preference thing.
Jeff
I've glass bedded M700s before, got any tips for bedding the hanger so I don't screw it up? It does look a bit trickier
Chuck
Chuck,
Lot's of modeling clay, and release agent!!!! I don't know how many times I looked at my setup trying to visualize all the spots that need to be plugged up. Just take it slow. I think bedding the tip of the hanger, as well as a small pad on each side at the rear, will go a long way towards keeping the forearm from rocking. My main motivation is to make it as solid as possible, so that I can have the tightest forearm to barrel fit, yet still maintain a free float.
Jeff
Sorry I haven't been tracking this thread as I should have been.
My Hornet had vertical stringing, bad, like about 3 inches, but no lateral dispersion at all. I tried lots of different loads, but they were all bad. This was at 50 yards too. I decided to do the least intrusive things first to see if those solved the problem, which thay didn't. I first had the forearm glass bedded and free'd from contact with barrel and receiver. I had the rib on top checked and made sure it didn't contact the top of the receiver in front. Finally, had the screw installed and that did solve the problem, in a very great way. I did have to tighten up the screw about two more turns from where the gunsmith had it set when he installed it. I don't recall how much he tightened it after it touched the barrel initially. I mention this because you may have to crank down on the screw pretty good to get it right. But now, the rifle is humming. I have no complaints at all about accuracy. I have no experience with the Hicks, except what I've read about them. I also read Ross Seyfried's article, as well as one by John Barsness and a guy who wrote an article in Precision Shooting, or The Accurate Rifle about fixing the Number 1. I think his name was Herrold. But, they both, at the time they wrote their articles, which was before the Hicks came out, recommended doing the set screw in the hanger fix.
I'm thinking about getting another number 1 Hornet and having it made into a K-Hornet.
Don
DMB,
Cool! Frank DeHaas also wrote some helpful articles on accurizing No.1's. They can be found in "Gunsmithing Tips and Projects" by Wolfe Publishing, as well as his own book "Mr. Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book". Both are very good reading, if you like to tinker.
Jeff
Just to make the game a little more confusing...
The quarter rib fix can be more extensive than assuring no contact with the receiver. Many -- not all -- of the ribs are not "true", that is dead straight. My smith checks them and assures that they are not creating a twisting torque during barrel flex. Also, some swear by cutting a slot in the rib, in place of just a whole, where the front screw fastens to the barrel. The theory is that this prevents the rib from bending with each shot.
Also, some say that the set screw needs to have something to ride against on the barrel. Some smiths just 'dimple the barrel itself to create a secure little divot for the screw head. My smith uses some kind of plastic steel that bonds to the barrel and then is dished out to hold the screw head.
Kind of makes you wish that Ruger did all that for you in a custom shop. But then the #1 would cost @ $2000.
1B
akjeff,
Thanks for the info!!
I'll get ahold of it.
Don
I had one on a #1B in 223 AI, Got 1.3" groups easy!
The Hicks provides additional surface area right out on the end of the hanger which makes securely bedding your forend easier.
I don't have much experience with the Hicks having only used one (on a .204) but it sure helped settle things down.
Chucky - check this one out. You don't get the flexibility of adjusting the hanger tension, but it worked ok for me. I ended up bedding Area "B" first , then area "C" to prevent forend rocking.
http://varminthuntinginternational.com/accurizingnoruger.html
Been there and done that with four different Ruger #1s. I am a slow learner. I spent lot of money on various bedding options, new triggers etc. One 22 PPC actually shot about 3/4" but one day it would be two inches high right, the next an inch or two in another direction.
Pretty guns, but I'll never own another.