I purchased a new Kimber Montana 84M in 257 roberts and have been unable to site the rifle in at 100 yards without bottoming out the scope adjustment. Its shooting close to 36 inches high when the scope is centered (new leupold vx3). I tried another scope off my winchester that I have never had a problem with with the same results. I have tried 3 different mounts (DNZ game reapers low, Leupold Med rings, and the talley solid 2pc lows with same results. All the rings and bases are new and are for the 84M. I sent it back to kimber and they are advising it shoots fine. It is accurate, I put 3 rounds into a .67 group using premium ammo but again the scope is adjusted all the way to the bottom. Kimber advises they will have to charge me if I send it back. Any Suggestions? thanks Steve

If all else fails to diagnose what the issue is mechanically, perhaps Burris signature rings with off-set inserts can help.

It's the .257 Roberts cartridge! They all shoot low, that's why it's not popular.

Get a borescope.

Get those Signature rings.

Not the cartridge, this rifle is shooting almost 3 feet high at one hundred yards, not low. I have to take the scopes elevation to the lowest point to be 1 inch high at 100 yards. I checked the signature rings but still concerned that I would have to use them on a 1200 dollar rifle. If I cannot get this worked out I guess I can sell it and go with another brand. Could be my first and last Kimber if they do not want to stand behind their product.

Shim up the rear base. Any decent gunsmith will have the shims and using a bore scope can get you centered without touching your turrets.

I could be wrong....but wouldn't you shim the front base???

The front base would have to be shimmed to bring it up to the point of impact at 100 yards. Could the front of the action be off and need to be squared? Going to send if back to Kimber one more time and then put if up for sale. Was really wanting another rifle in 257 Roberts but may have to wait on a custom one.

I would just use the Burris Signature Rings and call it good, or you could just sell the rifle to me.

Borescopes are used to inspect the interior of the bore. And to lower the POI, you would need to lift the front end of the scope.

Unless the scope base is 1 piece, you run a risk of damaging the scope by shimming one end. If you cannot solve the problem with the gun, then at best you should look at the Burris Signature Rings with the offset inserts. These are designed to place the scope off axis without the potential of bending the tube. But before I did anything, I would do a little more investigating to see why the bore and the receiver are so out of whack. And if it's a manufacturing defect, make Kimber correct it, at their expense.

LOL - Prairie goat my take you up on that offer if Kimber cannot make it right. I'm just frustrated that I spent this much on a rifle and I have to fix an issue that should be covered by the maker.

Well, they're correct - it shoots fine.. But did you specify that it's shooting so high it can't be scoped without resorting to ridiculous measures??

I agree with Malm - Call 'em up, send it back and have them fix it on their dime..


36" high at 100... WOW ... One of the worst I've heard of... I wonder what that action would look like if the crown and bolt opening were spun (SLOWLY) between centers.. Methinks the runout might be awesome to behold..

Why would you sell the RIFLE if its shootin .67"@100 yards... Seems dumb to me when its the scope that is 36" high... But then again, I ain't the brightest bulb around!

I think Redneck may be onto something. If the barrel and/or receiver have canted threads, the barreled action may be crooked enough to do exactly what you're seeing. Do what he said and slowly rotate the barreled action, holding the end of the barrel with one hand and the end of the open bolt with the other. You'll be able to see wobble at the barrel/receiver junction if the alignment is crooked.

IMHO, that gun needs to go back to Kimber along with a full description of your findings. If they try to blow you off, persist until they address the problem.

DF

It would probably shoot good groups when it's straight. To me, when I pay for something, I want it right. I don't want a rifle that has to be sighted at the extreme edge of the scope adjustment.

DF


Edited to add a post on the Optics thread by JB, discussing bore sighters. Operating a scope at the edge of adjustment range isn't ideal. JB mentions excessive parallax set up like that.



" Re: Bore Sighters [Re: ldholton]
Mule Deer
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 26454
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana Bore sighters (or more technically, collimators) have uses aside from getting on paper. We should also recognize that lecver, pump and semi-auto rifle don't allow us to look through the bore while adjusting the scope.

The most important use of collimators is getting the scope lined up reasonably well with the bore BEFORE shooting. This helps the scope work the way it should, especially the adjustments. If the scope is mounted quite a bit off-line with the bore, then the adjustments won't be nearly as repeatable or accurate. In fact a lot of people think scopes have bad adjustments, when the real problem is off-center mounting--which can also result in excessive parallax.

A grid collimator also can reveal adjustment-tracking problems without shooting expensive ammo.

The best way to check any collimator for accuracy is to use it on several rifles that are already sighted-in. This reveals many things, including how bore/reticle alignment varies due to barrel weight and bedding.

The most consistent and accurate collimator I've tried is the Wheeler (Midway) laser sighter. It works on any barrel, including shotguns, since it's one of the collimators that attaches to the muzzle with a magnet. The downside is that it requires a little distance (preferably 25 yards) to work."
_________________________
John

You need to replace the bases and the maybe the rings and this should take care of your problem . Nothing wrong with the rifle , it is a ring and base problem . You might want to try another scope first just to rule the scope out as the problem before spending anymore money .

OP's OP mentions that he had already tried as you suggest.

bea,

How can you be so sure that Kimber wasn't screwed together, crooked?

I think Redneck first rolled out that idea and some of the stuff I've seen them do, that concept needs to be investigated without any assuption that all is Kosher.

With Kimber, I like the Ronald Reagan addage, "Trust, then Verify".

DF

"How can you be so sure that Kimber wasn't screwed together, crooked?"
Why would that make a difference. The mounts go on one piece - the receiver.


I had this same difficulty with two Winchester 70 Classics. Ran completely out of scope adjustment. Instead of shimming I chose to take metal off one of the scope mounts and it worked very well on both rifles. I used stones and polishing paper and tried and fit and tried and fit until I got it where I needed it.

When the rifle was sent back to Kimber for an accuracy problem, they install a set of bases and ring as well as a hight power scope. Then it is shot at 100 yards. If they didn't have a problem zeroing the scope then the problem may be with your setup. Check the bases with a straight edge to make sure they are level. Then install the bottom half of your rings and do the same with the straight edge. If the front ring is lower than the rear you have a problem. If they are level then Kimber has a problem.

PS A boresighter is an autocolimator and used to set your scope up. A borescope is used to inspect the bore of a firearm.

Good luck,
Headache

Headache I have tried 3 different scope mounts that are for the 84M (DNZ, Leupold, and Talley) and no matter the base and rings it still shoots high. I have now tried 3 different scopes with the same results (2 Leupolds and 1 Baush and lomb elite}. When I asked them about the original testing he could not tell me the scope setting when they shot their test groups. I'm going to pull the stock and check how the barrel is fitting to the action. I will also check to see if it wobbles as suggested above. Last before it goes back to Kimber I will pull the scope and check to see if the bases are level. Thanks Guys for your replys

22WRF I purchased a Winchester model-70 featherweight (one of the first when they brought back the CRF in the early 80s) that shot extremely low and was told I needed to shim the bases. I sent it back to Winchester and they checked the square on the action and barrel and replaced the barrel. It is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever shot. I bedded it to a brown precision stock and it will group inside a dime all day long with good factory ammo and under an inch with cheap stuff. I just know what is right and wrong and something is not right with the Kimber.

Sure, the mounts are on the receiver. That's a given. If the barrel/receiver junction is canted, that may well explain why the gun is shooting so far off. Just think about it...

DF

stormshadow,

How much adjustment right or left did you need to make when you used the Talley's ?

If it not very much then you would need to shim the base. You can go to a hobby shop and get a package of brass for a couple dollars and make your own shims.

When I mount a scope I make sure the cross hairs are mechanically centered on the scope then I mount it. Then shim the bases to center the cross hairs to no more than 2 MOA adjustment with the scope. You want to have the cross hairs is close to centered in the scope mechanically. Because it can cause accuracy problems at long distances.

I have a Winchester Model 70 pre-64 257 Roberts that had the same problem shims solved it. Having mounted several thousand scopes I have come across extreme problems only 3 times, all were solved with shims.

Glad somebody else has common sense, apparently the OP doesnt!

After 3 different pairs of mounts I don't think changing them again will help....

with a 5" ring spacing that would amount to a .05" shim...

I agree with Redneck that a crooked barrel to receiver fit is likely.

Mike

Something I have seen before(but not as bad as op is saying ) espcially with lite barrels exccessive "up" barrel pressure on the end of the stock can change POI a lot , only way i know to check this is "credit card bed " the action so as the barrel is floated or very lite contact and see how much the POI changes. Don't belive me take a known rifle that is floated and take it out of the stock and rap a bunch of black tape around barrel (to make lots of up pressure) where it hits the end of the stock put back in stock and see how high it shoots.

After 3 sets of rings and bases and 3 different scopes all with the same problem its not the bases or the scope. Pulled the rings off and check the square on the Leupold bases and it was perfect. Pulled the stock and placed a square on the front portion of the action and rotated the rifle. The wobble at the end of the barrel was something to behold. Looking at where the barrel attaches to the action there appears to be a very small space between the action and barrel on the bottom side of the action which explains why it was hitting high. She has been boxed up and sent back to Kimber. Hopefully they will pull the barrel this time and check it. Thanks again for everyone's input