Anyone ever use a Kni-Co stove. I am looking at the Packer Junior stove for my Kifaru 4-man. It is one of the few stoves with a 3-inch port so I can use my roll up pipe. The stoves firebox is 9.5 x 12 x 10. A kifaru Medium stove is 8 x 12 x 9. Thinking that it would hold more wood than my Kifaru Small stove or tinny Round stove that is a 7 x 10 cylinder. Plus it is only 89 bucks

http://www.kni-co.com/

I have their tundra take down stove but haven't had a chance to use it yet.

Now, that's something like it, this stove would be well worth having for a base camp using a tent you could actually LIVE in for a couple of weeks or so. One man requires at least 10x12 for extended stays in really harsh country, but, nobody makes a synthetic tent of that size that is light enough for horsepacking or fly-ins, at least not that I am aware of.

This looks like it would hold fire for extended periods which is a major benefit for long term camps and although it is relatively heavy, the advantages are probably worth it.

I like the cheap price. I could use my stack robber and damper and pipe system that works with 3-inch ports. The stove body is 6.5 lbs however I have lighter stoves for longer range stuff. I could toss this little stove in my Paris sled or large pod on the EMR.



Kute.

The longest I have ever been snowed in was about two days. I walked around outside to brush the snow off the tipi and get some water. A 12-man would have been nice. I am thinking this stove could run maybe 1.5 hours with damper.

I have their regular size heepherder stove that I use in my old alaknak tent. It is a well made product.

Well, I think that you gotta be one of the most useful posters on any forum due to your constant working with wood stoves and your kind sharing of the results with us. The Alaskan Junior is EXACTLY what I have been looking for to use as a main stove in my Kifaru 8-man as the Kifaru stoves are not "airtight" and although I have the "large" model, it is not quite what I want.

I was going to order a 4-dog Ti, but, the $$$$$ cost and problematical delivery, relative to the few times per year I will actually use this stove, make it a questionable investment. I can use the Kifaru stove in summer camps where a quick morning fire is often welcome and then this rig for hunting camps at this time of year, very neat and quite reasonable in price, IMO.

I was looking at a local product of this type, yesterday, but, the features of the "Deluxe Package" on the Alaskan Junior are absolutely perfect for my needs, with my Kifaru tipis. I am probably going to get the little tigoat takedown stove for my Paratipi and this will complete my hunting camp as I will use the 8-man to cook and "live" in and the PT to sleep in when solo in Grizzly country.

I like the idea of a spare shelter, available wood heat and the space afforded by this arrangement, for one or two guys, it is about perfect. It is also light enough and versatile enough to cover about any situation I will encounter anywhere I want to go.

Brilliant, WW, keep giving us these tips on this type of gear, it's "made my day"!

I think these stoves are not 100% airtight as the door will not have the gasket of those 35-50 lbs stoves but this should have little effect on the burn time. I think the roll up pipe for the Kifaru large stove is the same 5 inches as the Alaskan Junior. So you drop the weight of the segmented pipe. Also I would highly recommend the stack robber they sell. Originally this company gave me the idea for my robber. You will have zero sparks and more burntime if it works anything like mine.

Here is the Kni-co Robber.



This is mine.


I like the packer line but using the little 4-man tipi everything over the Packer Jr would be way too much. With stove,roll up pipe and homemade robber I am only looking at under 10 lbs for everything. This is way more than my Kifaru small stove being under 4 lbs or my homemade one that is 6lbs however maybe the extra comforts of a longer burning stove will be worth the extra lbs for shorter range stuff.

The mild steel could rust out over time but that would take a long long time. Also mild steel has a very good heat transfer rate. So like you this stove would not replace my take down Kifaru stove but offer a supplement.

Sometimes I pack two shelters. I cook and hang out in the paratipi and sleep in the Hennessy Hammock with 4season system. I will do this until the temps drop below 10�s than it is a larger tipi with the Downmat.

Another thing I will do if using the sled is to pack some very dry split hard wood if the woods are wet. Not much wood just enough for a few loads. This way I can mix the wet wood and let the stove build up a good base to allow the water to be boiled out of the wet fuel after my dry stuff is spent.

Woods Walker
I used that same stove with the Arctic Oven Tent from Ak Tent & Tarp. It was during a winter hunt and the temps outside were -35F , inside it was heated to 75 F. We were using the rolled fireplace logs for long term burns at nite. My chain saw took care of daytime wood needs. One of the wax logs burns for about 6 hours. I don't know if they redesigned the spark arrester or not but the fireplace logs burn dirty enough to clogg the S.A. if you don't clean it before you turn in.

Thanks Budman.

I think those logs are real messy burning. My robber cooks everything off but 6 hours of rolled logs is asking alot. I am guessing that you got the standard Packer or Alaskan? How long was the burntime with normal wood? I am going to order the Packer Jr this week. How was their robber for killing sparks are extra heat

Agreed about the wax logs, but they helped bigtime in the snow .
Spruce burns about 1.5 hrs, when damped down. I had the older model of the packer jr. , the stack robber wasn't offered then..I'll be interested in your trials with the robber. Good luck

WW,

I use the Kni stack robber with my Kni-co sheepherder stove. The spark arrestor in the robber works fine with the wood I use (dry split lodgepole pine). No problem with clogging as compared with a traditional screen on top of the stove pipe. The stove plus the damper section and spark robber is tall, won't be a problem in a tipi but the stovejack in my little tent is close to the sidewall. I fabricated some 3 inch legs for the stove to keep stack robber down away from the fabric.

I will do a review of how it worked with roll up pipe and damper. Going to test those wax logs with the robber too. I should be able to push the burntime 20% with the robber damper combo but need to find out for myself. Even still 1.5 hours is what I was looking for. Thanks for the info. I think maybe the door got changed so the newer stove should like the older one.

I am hoping you all can help me out with my stove choice. I purchased the following tent and hope to use it for the first time this winter:

http://www.snowtrekkertents.com/shortwall.html

It is 8x11 and rated as a 3-4 person tent. I am trying to decide what is the smallest stove I can get away with. Empire makes the following stoves:

http://www.snowtrekkertents.com/portablewoodstoves.html

The medium is similar in size to the Alaskan Jr. at 11x12x18 and 22 gauge steel. The entire package including shelf and 4 sections at 18" each of 5" tappering stove pipe and elbow. Price is $240 but this does not include a spark arrestor or water tank. I believe Empire recommends the medium stove for my size tent, 8x11. Empire's small stove measures 9x10x12. Empire and Kni Co seem very similar, but you get more for your money going with the deluxe packages from Kni Co. From Kni Co, it looks like the Alaskan Jr., Packer Jr, and Packer could suit my needs. So my question is:

Which brand and model would you recommend for my tent?

I should also tell you that the tent will most often be occupied by 2 people with an average stay of 3-5 nights in Northern Minnesota where it can get cold from time to time. Camping will vary from vehicle entry to dog sled and snowshoes.

Thanks.

Prewar..

Looking at the stoves they are so close to the Kni-co.

Snowtrekker� - Small
Dimensions: 9" x 10" x 12"
Stovebox Weight: 7 lbs
Damper: 7 oz.
Side shelf: 11 oz.
Folding stove snow legs: 9 oz.
3 Section telescoping 3� pipe, 20� long ea.: 2 lbs. 5 oz.
Total Stove Package Weight = 10 lbs. 5 oz.
Package Price: $175.00

It even looks the same. I have a feeling that Kni-co makes these stove for them but can't be certain.

I have heard some good things about the tents. But like the tipi do the pack down size and weight. However if I was snowed in for an extended time and packed my shelter on a sled the Shortwall Hybrid seems nice.

From the pictures, it looks to me like only the Alaskan Junior of the Kni-Co stoves can be floated with sticks, whereas all the models of Snowtrekker stoves can be floated.

Very nice looking stoves all around.

Woodswalker,

Thx for the input. So which size stove would you go with for my size tent. The small or medium in the Snowtrekker and which model for the Kni-Co.

Thanks.

Phasmid

Thanks for the info. How does their robber work for sparks? I don't think they make one for the Packer Jr but all the stoves are handmade so maybe if I ask. But then again I have a robber anyways.

Prewar70.

I am not certain. I bet the company would know better. I am going with the smallest stove because my heated shelters, Kifaru Paratipi and Kifaru 4-man tipi are small and think a bigger stove would be too much plus the Smaller size of both stoves takes a 3inch pipe. I like my 3-inch roll up pipe so that kinda forces me to get the small stove. Don't want to make a new robber and buy a new larger roll up pipe.

Husky.

I didn't even look at the snow float thing. Something to think about. But I don't like their damper. A true adjustable damper has always worked better for me than just sliding in a piece of sheet metal. Plus they don't have a stack robber (however anyone could purchase this from Kni-co). I am a big fan of the Robber.

WW
I like the Kni-co but sold it ,I now use the 4 dogs Bannerman Ti stove..It burns for about an hour with a good load of wood.Have never tried it with wax logs yet..Don got way behind the first part of the year, I hope he gets things settled because he builds a great stove.. The Bannerman fits my 12 man Tipi great with the original roll pipe from my large Kifaru stove

I was looking at the Bannerman Ti stove too. Don knows his stuff big time. The only issue was the pipe port is less than 3-inches and the pipe than tapers up. This is a great Idea however my roll up pipe is cut for 3-inches. Some guy on the Kifaru MB sold his for 250 bucks and I am still kicking my self for not jumping on it. I could have made some kinda mod to mate the 3-inch pipe to the smaller hole. The main problem is I don't have the money for a Ti stove right now and I need this stove for winter. After looking over his whole stove line I think Don is the King. Heck he even has a baffle plate inside his larger stoves. If I ever get a larger tipi and work my way into some money you can bet I will be ordering a TI stove from him but right now 100 bucks for the Packer Jr. is all I have. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ohh the "bushcooker" hobo stove looks cool too.

I spoke with a guy last Feb while dogsledding in Ely, MN. The guy makes his living in the winter sledding groups into the Boundary Waters and Quetico. He uses the Empire Tents and steel stoves. I asked why he doesn't use Titantium. He said he had one but only used it on a couple trips and then went back to steel. The weight savings was great but as soon as the fire went out the stove went cold very quickly whereas the steel stoves retained their heat quite a while longer. So for him the extra weight was worth it. I have heard a lot about how great the Ti stoves are but never hear anyone mention heat retention and if this is one of their faults.

WW.. the pipe actually taper small end at the bottom to the top, where my 4 inch roll pipe fits inside the Ti pipe.
Prewar, you are correct about more mass of the steel stove to hold heat, but the whole idea of a Ti stove is to save weight . I use mine to fly-in to remote rivers.Load limits are usually 750 lbs. total weight , that gets tight for 2 hunters, raft and gear. There is always a trade off with gear, that's why there's so much to choose from. My 12 man tipi with stove heat weights only 18 lbs.

Sorry to hi-jack, but I'm striking out with Google.
Does anyone remember the company that makes two man wall tents with a stove. I think I remember them looking like a hybrid pyramid with short walls. The company only offered that one model, and is somewhere back east. I remember it was heavy, and didn't like it at the time (last year?), but would like to have another look. Ring any bells?

I think that you mean www.empirecanvasworks.com.

I have spoken with the owner and he is a super guy, I was going to buy one of his rigs, however, I have no place to properly dry a canvas tent.

IF, I had this ability, I would have one of his "Snowtrekker" tents for my 1-2 person base camp over anything else on the market and would choose a Kni-Co "Alaskan Junior" stove to heat it with.

I would prefer this to any tipi due to headroom issues and to anything else available that I would have to heat with propane, such as the "Atlas" tent by Hilleberg. But, you MUST dry a tent like this thoroughly after each use and this requires a lot of space.....maybe someday!

Bud.

Yea it tapers small to large. I think the bottom stove port is less than 3 inches unless I am wrong. So you put the Roll pipe inside the TI pipe? Great idea.

WW
I got the idea from you. I wanted the pipe to clear the top of my tipi about 3 ft. because of the holes I got from sparks. Rolled stainless is the best for a compactable pipe.

WW,

No problem with sparks or embers escaping so far with the stack robber, even in high winds.

222rem,

Montana Canvas makes a nice 10x10 pyramid with 3' walls. When it is made out Relite, the tent, poles, and fly weigh 35#. This company made my Alaknak for Cabelas back in 93 and I have used it a lot sense. The current Cabelas Alaknak are made overseas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. The Relite is tough, and doesn't get heavy like canvas when wet and drys fast.

http://www.montanacanvas.com/spiketents.cfm

The other tent to consider would be a EENA from Beckel Canves. It is a modified pyramid with canvas roof and Relite side walls.

http://www.beckelcanvas.com/Tents.htm

For the greatest weight savings you have to with Ti goat or Kifaru tipis but for truck camps these others work fine. 10x10 usually means 9'6"x9'6" actual. Two guys hunting in cold weather work great, 3 is crowded, 4 can squeeze in but one person needs an asbestos sleeping bag in case they roll into the stove.

http://www.greenwayseedandindustries.com/new_page_1.htm

Those look like some good tents, I haven't seen them before. Do you have one of those Dry lite tents Dudlie? I added a vent to the peak of my Alaknak my self after using it the first year. The vent became standard on the factory tents the next year. If that Dry Lite really does let moisture vapor through without condensation in cold weather it would be great. A 10x12 wall tent that weighs just 13 pounds is really tempting. Sorry to hijack WW's thread.

Bud.

The high pipe helps big time with sparks and adds more draft to the system. My system of a Damper, Robber and spark screens and high pipe has so far been 100% spark proof.




Once had a super heated fire from some good black Birch. The whole stove and robber was almost white. Flames shot 3 feet out of the pipe. The draft was so strong that sparks got blasted though everything. But the High pipe tossed them away from the tent. Don't know how the long pipe has helped you but it worked great for me.

Even use a longer pipe on the little paratipi.



Phasmid.

Any topic that has stoves or tents is welcome.

In general I am thinking that the Packer Jr is perfect for my needs. Glad to hear others liked the quality of Kni-co stoves. The take down stoves are great but they don�t work like the more Airtight jobs. Just the price I pay for a 3-4 lbs stove system that packs down to nothing compared to a 10-11 lbs system that takes up more room. The homemade stove is great as it too packs down to fit in a Molle side pocket and comes in at 6.5 lbs for the whole system as seen above but the max burn time for a 7x10 cylinder even with damper and robber is 40 minutes with good hardwood. I think the Kni-co could be pushed to 2 hours in sub zero heating a small shelter like a Kifaru 4-man tipi with liner. That is one thing I like about the 4-man tipi. Even with the smaller stoves 6 sticks can heat it for � hour. The stand up room is like zero and it is tight for being snowed in however I tend to walk around outside any tent in any weather just to get out regardless of size so for me the smaller shelter�s ease of heat, small foot print and tinny weight/pack size fits the bill. I liked the other tents shown but they are all too heavy for my needs. 89 bucks makes it look even better.

Phasmid

I don't have one. I met these folks at the RMEC in Reno. He is an old elk hunter who started to make his own gear as a sideline years ago. I bought a horse blanket and some saddle bags from them. They make quality gear. I have a custom made wall tent I use for a base camp. I have two Kifaru Tipis I use for packing in and backpacking. I was thinking of one of his pyramid tents for a drive in base camp. Easier to set up one man. Quality material will handle a snow load, it breathes no condensation.

Thanks for the links Phasmid.

The closest I'd found with Google was the MT. Canvas product you mentioned. It looks good, but I'd like it w/o a floor, and with a single center pole. The Dry Lite tents look like the ticket (thanks for the link Dudley), I didn't see prices listed, but would be just as happy having the same product made from good canvas instead if it kept the cost down at the expense of weight.

I've got a Kifaru Paratipi and small stove, for the light and fast solo trips. I've also got a 14x16 wall tent for truck camping. I'm looking for something in between that sets up faster and easier than the wall tent, but with some stand up room. I'd like to get my wife interested in winter camping, and know that a heated shelter is a must. The Paratipi would be very romantic, but a little cramped after a while. An 8man Kif tipi would be nice for sure, but I'm looking to short cut that expense for now. The Miner/Pyramid tent should be fast and simple for quick weekend trips.

The Beckel Canvas hybrid tent looks interesting, but more complicated than the standard Miner. I've got a true Whelen lean-to coming next week from Beckel. I've wanted one since about '84, so I'm excited to see how it drives. If I can get a pard over some time to show me how to work Photobucket I'll share some images once I get 'em.
222

Kute, I missed your Snowtrekker link the first time. Yeah, that's the company I was thinking of. Those are pretty skookum tents.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Beckel "eena", a hybrid miner with 5' walls. They're too heavy for backpacking, but have the fast setup of a miner with a lot more space.

Placed my Order for the Packer Jr. The guy from Kni-co is a real class act. He even called me back to ask if I wanted the Float legs added special on my Packer Jr for a small extra charge. I went with it. Will report back on the stove after I get it.

Thats nice to know he'll put snow legs on that model. Thanks Woodsy, I eagerly await your report.

David

I think you will like the kni-co. A friend has the smallest one and it is very well constructed.

I am to cheap myself and so build my own out of stove pipe metal. A side benefit is that for 40.00 a shot I can make a custom design sized perfectly for a particular tent. I can also use lighter metal and get a weight reduction knowing that I might have to replace the burnt out body a bit more often.

Ole Wik's book is a great starter.

Here is my latest creation sized for our snhow trekker tent and able to keep heat 3 hours or so. Uses the Kni-Co 4-5" pipe and a few design features stolen from their web-site. This one also has an internal baffle which gives greater efficiency of heat forced across and onto the stove top instead of up the pipe.



Here is the Snowtrekker in action. This is the three man model which my family of four can squeeze into ( We are a huggy bunch)

A baffle plate is a very good thing to have. I made a tinny one for my small Kifaru take down stove. Darn good spark arrestor too as the chucks doesn�t get blown up the pipe.





Oh nice stove you made. Great looking tent too.

Nice shots.... here is my Mark II baffle reduces boiling time to 1/3, throws more heat and keeps the chimney cooler. What's not to love. Sorry about the picture quality but you get the idea.

North61.

I found that a baffle plate is a nice spark killer as the pipe does not suck up larger chunks of wood. I see your tent has the pipe out the side so sparks may not be an issue but what have you seen with your larger stove. How much wider than the pipe port is the baffle plate? I know there is a formula some place for size of the plate but I just guessed.

I figured that my 5" pipe has a cross section of about 17" and ensured that the baffle plate allowed more than this so that there was no restriction of draft.

Seemed to work.

The baffle plate does seem to reduce the ammount of large sparks..the ones that would give trouble falling back on the tent and making spark holes or worse. My Spark arrestor at the end of the pipe seems to clog much less with this stove with the baffle.

Just got the Kni-co Packer Jr with snow float legs. It looks great and seems well made. Was a bit heavier than the web sit stated. The weight for the Body is 8 lbs 1.8 oz. This is not a real problem for a base camp/pulk sled stove. With pipe, Damper and homemade robber the stove is 10 lbs 13 oz. Only less than a pound over my target weight for a more airtight base camp stove system. Maybe the snow legs added some extra weight. May just get a cargo chair to strap the thing on my pack or toss it inside my large POD. The construction is first rate. The door has a very nice air intake system with an internal plate off the door. I am guessing this heats the incoming air but don't know. I will take photos of the stove and post them in a few days. Going out this weekend for a test run. I am very pleased by the looks of the stove so far.

Update.

Tested the Packer Jr with some mixed results. Here are some photos of the stove:





The stove put off some good heat. It cooked food and boiled water very fast. Being heavier than my small Kifaru and homemade stove it took longer to heat up. But once heated it remained hot longer. The down side was that the stove would smoke me out big time. Once driving me from my tent in a massive cloud of smoke and gas. Flames would jump out the door for about a foot. This told me that it was not drafting correctly. First I removed the homemade robber. Still smoked. Then the damper but that didn�t help. Then one and the other spark screens. Smoke nearly the same. Don�t understand this as even the take down Kifaru stove can operate my robber/damper/spark screen combo and being less airtight the stove should draft worse. But my only experience with stove are sub 3lb fire boxes and 40 lbs once. Never burned an 8 lb steel stove before. The stoves construction is first class. Like the plate behind the air intake hole. Maybe to stop sparks from jumping out etc? The stove pipe port even has a bend inward to support the pipe etc. Looks first rate so the fault must be with me. I sent and email off to Kni-co to see what I am doing wrong. Will update the board again

Thanks Woods. I've been looking forward to your report. My 70 lb. KwikKamp does not smoke me out but it has a 5" pipe and tapers out, not in. I wonder if you prime the pipe for a heat gradient like Ole' Wik suggests, if that will break the barrier you have going. Stuff some paper up the pipe and light that first. See if that doesn't get you a draw going.

Are these Kni-Co stoves the same as sold by Cabelas?

Hummm maybe but even with the stove very hot for some time and a good fire going it smoke me right out of the tent in about 3 seconds if I even cracked open the door. Even smokes me out when I add more wood on top of coals. The roll up pipe can change width but overall it must have more area inside than a 3-inch pipe that tapers down. Must be something I am doing wrong. I can run my other stoves with the door open etc. Glad for the longer burn times, as I feared opening the door.

This little stove is running with the door open and not even a hint of smoke.



But then again I have used the thing about a hundred times. The same goes for my homemade round stove so I know just how it will work with any fuel. I will report back soon. I think the fault must be mine. Every time something does not work it is because I screwed up. This guy makes the stoves for Empire and a bunch of others. He told me that lots of companies come to him for their stove manufacture. So I am guessing he knows how to make a stove.

Rem

He charged me under 10 bucks to ship it. I think they are the same.

Wow, at full throttle and still getting smoked out. Thats a conundrum. What if you remove the spark screen element. I've thought those slots must be acting somewhat as a carburetor, cooling off the lower pipe and also inducing a secondary burn up farther with the added O2. But then that doesn't explain why it works just fine in other cases.

Keep us informed- always interesting to follow what you're up to.

I removed the spark screens. Still smokes. I mean fill your tent up and smoke rushing out the tent's door smoke. I think the thin SS roll up pipes drafts good as it heats up fast slots or no. Still I only ran it without screens for 20 seconds for fear of pin holes. But the stove seems to burn without alot of sparks. A good thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, maybe. I gotta think those slots are sucking in air pretty good. But I'm not gonna drill holes all the way up the pipe to test that theory.

You missunderstand. A sealed collar system would be better but even with slots the rollup pipe drafts very good due to the fast heating. I don't think letting air into the pipe helps. Seems it would spoil some draft. Well anyways I will find out what I am doing wrong. May even pick up some 3-inch pipe at HD just to remove the rollup pipe from the mix for testing

Woods, the S&H seemed cheap for something heavy like a stove, so I assumed it must be an east coast company close to you. When I clicked on the "contact us" page I was VERY surprised that Kni-co is located about 100miles from my house! I never would have guessed it. That kinda answers how I'll buy my stove.

For a 8.5x11.5 (w/7ft pk) canvas wedge tent, I'm thinking the Packer stove would be the right size. Any thoughts?

Interesting. The first stove I made was the same size as the Alaskan Jr and using the 3-2" pipe. It's a smoking bugger too!


Need to be very careful with wood management and be careful to move up in size incrementally or the little bugger smokes away. Adding big peices of wood too fast will cause excessive smoking.*

North61, I like your homegrown stoves. You've inspired me to try making one. I have most all the hardware from old dog boxes on an old trailer. Where do you go to get your sheet metal? And what is the purpose of the recessed front face?

Woods,

What are the stove dimensions? I have found if stove box is too tall in comparison to the length and width, you will get smoked out big time. A larger diameter and / or longer pipe will help.
I don't fully understand why this happens, but sometimes by reducing the height by as little as 1/2" would do the trick when working with prototypes.

Ed T

Huskeyrunnr: I use stove pipe metal for the stove body. Simply square the stove pipe and lock it together at the seam. Use STEEL and not aluminum pop rivets. The recessed front is not strictly necessary but makes for a more rigid construction as every bend adds a bit of stiffness to the stove. Get Ole Wik's book about stove making on Amazon for a good reference and lots of ideas.

To figure out the size of stove pipe needed take the circumference multiply by pi and divide by 4 to get your rough square dimensions.

For example 7" pipe would be 14" when pieced together multiply by 3.14 to get 44" divided by 4 gives an 11" stove,

Square works less well than rectangular with the base being narrower than the heighth. A 10 wide by 12 high stove made with 7" pipe would burn well and is my favourite size. Make it long enough to carry the pipe inside. 18-24" depending on your pipe.

6 inch pipe gives you a 9.5" stove, try 8.5 wide by 10.5 High

8" Pipe gives a 12.5 Stove try 11.5 wide by 13.5 high

I have an airtight stove that is rectangular but sits upright. That is, it sits up on end with the long axis verticle. The 4" stove pipe does not leave a lot of cooking space but is fine for boiling water. Its 8" x 8" x 17". The wood is elevated off of the bottom by about an inch using expanded metal grate. That small compartment is also where the vent is located. No damper in the output, only a vent on the input. With the expanded metal the ash falls into the compartment. Longer pieces of wood lean towards verticle, resting against the stove side.
This configuration lends itself to excellent drafting. It never smokes. Once going it can be turned into a blast furnace with its excellent drafting. At that point is will burn anything, wet wood, large pieces, bark, etc.

I just got off the horn with Kni-co and should have a Packer on the porch later this week. I ordered the pipe, damper, and screen package too. It should be fun to play with while waiting for my tent. The neighbors will think I've lost a wheel when they see me running a stove in the backyard. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ed T

9.5 high, 12 inches long and 10 wide.

Another thing I was thinking about is maybe the door has something to do with it.



The opening for the door is very large. Not bad but there is not alot of metal overhang on the top maybe 1/2 inch.

I put more meat on the top of my homemade stove's opening and less on the bottom.



Being that the air flow is hitting near the bottom it turns the wood into fine ash by the opening. I was thinking maybe more overhang on the top would keep the smoke inside. Well I did something right as the stove drafts great. It is 7x10.

Your stove seems to have a smaller opening too.



I don't know if the door or opening means anything. The only issue with my Kifaru door was the flap got very lose. It would slip and kill the fire. The general advice I got on the Kifaru MB was to tap the rivet. But this didn't work for me. The other thing was to drill the rivet out and replace it. Again it didn't work. I think there is a washer between the door and flap that made all of these things harder. In the end I had to trash the flap and put a screw with washer over the area so not to have my screw up looking me in the face.



I am thinking this problem does not happen often. I just use the stove more than most. Tend to run it hot too. Still works.

On the topic of the Kni-co stove what do you think Ed. Maybe have the intake pipe deeper inside the fire box? Then again maybe I am not using it right and the fault is with me. Would not be the first time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Woods,

My guess, is the ratio of height to width is a bit too much. I know when Patrick & I were doing prototypes, we started with the large stove being 20 long by 9 wide bt 9 hgh. It smoked something terrible, so we cut down the height to 8 and everything was just right.

I have a chart somewhere on the ideal ratio of flue diameter to stove box cubic inches. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

Same thing happened when I prototyped the Para stove. I had a 2 3/4 flue and went on a backpack elk hunt for the 1st burn test. I about sufficated myself. Went to a 3" flue and all was well.

It also depends on the wood, as you know well. When I was doing prototypes on the Arctic series, 4 3/4" worked fine with good lodgepole and ponderosa, but with punky alder and spruce, we needed to go up to 6".

You also cold try riviting a piece inside the front to make the draft come in higher.

PM me with your address and I will send you a new front for your stove.

Ed T

Ed T.

Wow thanks. I will fire off that PM. You guys have great customer service.

So on the topic of stoves I see what you are saying. I used the size of my small stove when building my homemade round one. I guess this was a good move on my part still I cut an 1/2 inch off so the stove would fit in a molle side pocket. The smoke on the Kni-co tossed me for a loop as I can run my small Kifaru stove with the door open once it is burning good.

"You also cold try riviting a piece inside the front to make the draft come in higher"

On the top or bottom?

Interesting I have had the opposite experience with width to heigth ratios and find taller and less wide burns better.

I got the idea from Craig MacDonald an Ontarion who has researched the tent stove issue since the 70's and use to write for Mors Kochanski's short lived magazine.

The sizes of stoves he makes and sells (decades old proven designs):

1400CuInch 8"wx10"hx18"long 3" pipe fast heating/short burns the smallest practical size (I agree) 7.5 pounds

2800CuInch 10"wx 13"h x 20"L 4"pipe. 19 pounds
3900CuInch 11.75"H x 15"h x 22" L 4" pipe 25 pounds
4800CuInches 11.75W x 17"h X 24" L 5" pipe 31 pounds

For most winter use in a wall tent Craig will recommend the 3900 Cu Inch as about right.

north61

I have used smaller stoves than 1400 CC and found them very pratical. You have to add in the backpack factor and shelter size. True I would carry the biggest stove my pack and back will allow. But with a little shelter like this I don't want too much stove.



I mean the shelter is a little over 3 lbs and the stove under 3 lbs. 6 lbs is not so bad. For the Pulk sled I could afford to pack a larger stove and bigger shelter. As it stands a Kifaru 4-man and small stove (or my homemade stove if the trip is shorter) is about it. That comes in at about 10 lbs based on what I take with it. Liners etc.

Sometimes I just pack the stove. This is for areas that don't allow open fires and I don't want the smoke etc of a hobo.



2 lbs 13 oz makes for a nice cooking area with some extra heat when sleeping under the stars. Or under a tarp just in case of a little rain.





or alot of rain.



Then there is that lost in the woods thing. I see lots of uses for a tinny portable stove. A longer burning stove is great and that is what got me going on the Kni-co thing. Once I work out the right way to get it burning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But this would never replace a take down stove. Large or small. It is just so easy to pack in.

North,

Interesting observation on your experiencies. Could be that the height to width ratio works either way. Could be thet the problem occurs when the width and height are close to even.

I have been building stoves since the early 70's and I still have a lot to learn.

Ed T

Ed T

Woods,

I would try riviting the piece on the bottom.

Here is my ratio that I have found works well for pipe to stove box. I'll use the medium stove as an example. With a box of 12 x 9 x 8, it has 864 cubic inches. The pipe for the four man tipi is 94" x 3.5" diameter.

Area of a circle is square of diameter X .7854, so 3.5 x 3.5 x.7854 = 9.62 x 94 (the pipe length) = 904.

Divide 904 by 864 (stove volume) and you come up with 1.04.

This is close to ideal. I have gone as low as .66, but the closer you stay to 1 the better the draw.

Ed T

Great Thread....as my small stove is a smoker I assumed small wouldn't work but I just might have to make some mods.

EdT Thanks for the input...nice to know there is more than one way to skin the cat.

Thanks for the info Ed T and the great customer service on my small Kifaru stove.

I use an 84-inch pipe on my small stove for the 4-man and a 5-footer for the Paratipi. The stovepipe is 3-inches but it tends to change shape some during the burn. I don't know if that affects the draw or calculations. I tested the Kni-co with the 5-footer so maybe some burns with the 7-foot pipe are needed. I am going to clamp a piece to the bottom first to see if it helps. If it does than I can adjust the size before riveting.

razorsharp1

I have seen stoves like that before. Never got one due to the small cooking area but sounds like a nice stove just the same.

Woods, did you get a response to your email yet?

I had some stove size questions when I ordered mine, and talked with "Richard," who was very helpfu. I didn't ask, but he kinda sounded like the boss-man.

BTW, I orderd a 94" pipe (5") for the Packer. I'm hoping a long pipe combined with the long/narrow stove config gives me a smoke-free insurance. We'll see.

Woods,

One of the great benefits of the verticle stove is that I mount it to the tipi pole. So it is elevated off the ground. No legs. This allows for a shorter stovepipe. Perhaps an even bigger benefit, though, is the floor space that it opens up by having it elevated. I did not plan for this benefit when designing the thing but found it one of the most useful improvements in practice. The wood, or anything else that needs to be dried, can be stowed beneath the stove. No more burned sleeping bags or accidental kicking of the stove. And having the stove at head height when sitting is much more ergonomic and makes for easier feeding. When car camping and using chairs the stove can be moved up even higher. No more leaning down to feed.
Its not even a pound heavier than the Kifaru large stove. Very backpackable, but items have to be stowed inside to utilize the space. This has not been a problem for me. I have a sacrificial stuff bag that I use to line the inside of the stove to protect gear from soot. Works fine.
No need for snow platform either, obviously, except the tipi pole still needs one.

rz

rz,

I'd love to see a picture of your stove.

Ed T

Ok...I know its been explained a thousand times but I need it told one more time--how do you attach pictures?

rz

If you email the photo to me and I will do it.

Daytraderwon@yahoo.com

I got them. Will post the photos later today. I like the stove.

razorsharp's stove.













Looks great. The only question I have is if the stove will weaken the Al pole. I don't think so as it is not in direct contact with the pole. Also size and methods etc of constuction. I am guessing that the pipe will have to be at a small angle for the jack.

At first I isolated the stove from the pole, not knowing much about metallurgy. Then I talked with an engineer who said I could go well over 500 degrees without affecting the pole, theoretically. I got temp readings of only 150 degrees at the junction of the stove/pole, so I removed the isolators. I've been using it like this for a year or so and no indications of trouble.

The stove pipe does not angle. Also, the screen holder is not steel. I used the leftover stove pipe material to make a collar where the screens sit inside, not removable during usage. So the stovepipe slides over the collar and rests on the stovetop. This may contribute to improved drafting as there are no slits for the screens, and one less seam in the the pipe system.

Its nice becaue the ash can be slid out with a stick, through the bottom compartment and carried outside so the stove never has to be removed.
The range of dampening goes from total extinquishing to enraged furnace.

This prototype has worked so well I just haven't pursued a final draft. Its heavier than it needs to be but I don't mind. The mounting hardware is excessive in size and strength and the top and bottom sections overlap the stove body more than they need to. I could probably shave at least a quarter pound if I wanted.

I always thought that this idea was possibly an answer to the stove/paratipi problem, where the stove sits in the middle of the living area. If I was going to buy another paratipi I would order the stoveport moved toward the peak, build a smaller stove, and mount it to the main pole. You would have to move around it to exit the tipi but I don't think it would be a problem with a smaller version of this stove. It sure would make a big difference in living area space as it does in my 8-man.

rz.

That is pretty slick Razorsharp.

Veddy interesting. That's quite an innovative idea Razor!

I take it you don't cook on the stove though?

Razor
That pushed me to try my 4 dog bannerman on my Kif 12 man pole. I was thinking of this very setup and then you posted. I like your setup....

Thanks, guys...and thanks WW for doing the pictures for me.

No, I don't cook much. I do boil water for meals and hot drinks and the stove is fine for that. I never know if I will want food or drink with the stove not in use so I generally cook on a backpacking stove anyway.

I've thought about an optional lid platform that would lay over this lid but would extend out in every direction past the stove so that there would be more cooking space. It would be a large flat square that would have a flange on the bottom to pick up the top bracket screw.

Another option that could be used with this stove is a platform with a set of legs so that the stove does not have to be attached to the pole. This way the stove could be used outside the tipi.

Other benefits of this design are the ease of starting the fire, the length of burn, and the quick and easy setup. The fire can be lit from below, from the lower compartment so all the wood can be set just as with a home fireplace. And the fire takes off in a hurry. Once it gets a bed of coals it will accept anything that can be fit through the door. I have put large, fist-sized hunks in and the fire does not bog down. So burn times are long and more consistent.

My entire 8-man tipi fits inside the stove along with stove pipe and hardware, with the tipi pole sections sticking out the top. Then the stove/tipi get put in a stuff-sack and that goes in my pack, upright. To set it up I simply empty the stove and reach in through the door and pipe hole to put a nut on the screws then I press the stove to the tipi pole and tighten the clamps.

I am one of the few that thinks the stove port should be moved forward in the paratipi. My small stove might have some changes made to it after looking at these pics. Woods, do you think it is possible to do this with a small stove in the para as Razor shows? Would free up tons of space.

My Kni-Co "Packer" stove arrived this evening. I haven't weighed it yet, or fired it up, but my initial impression of it's construction and attention to detail is very good. It's supposed to be a Christmas present so it'll get warm on the 25th.

There is one other consideration that should be mentioned for anyone contemplating one of these pole-stoves.....the stove may be adding stress to the pole. Most of the stress, I would think, is driving downward as opposed to outward so I think the 8-man pole can handle it. But there is a certain amount of pull that the stove puts on the pole outward, trying to tip it over. With the stove mounted on the second section I feel the leverage is minimal. Still it is worth noting and one needs to understand that they operate at their own risk.

A bigger concern would be with the paratipi. A slightly smaller stove might not scale down this concern proportionally so there could be a much greater amount of stress on the paratipi pole with, say, a 6" version of this stove. Also, consider that the stove may hinder pole adjustment.

Nice job razor.

You can also get by with a smaller snow platform when camping on top of snow. You don't need one for the stove, just the pole.

I would be concerend about the pole being rigid enough on anything smaller than a 4 man.

I've been playing around with a pole mounted airtight. It does provide more room.

I't pretty cool to see all the ideas that people come up with.

Ed T

Thanks, Ed T.
Yes, I would steal a clue from the bigger tipi's and go with a multiple-segmented and overlapping pole system for the paratipi to give it more strength. At least 3 or 4 sections.
The other thing that I would like to see, eventually, is one of these stoves in a cylinder shape. The box gives a little more cu. in. in the same basic size and shape but I like the looks and feel of the cylinder--no sharp corners. But it is harder for metal shops to work with circles, especially if they are going to make multiple, duplicatible, units......they like straight lines and sharp corners. The box utilizes space better in the backpack too.

rz

wyoelk

I don't think the paratipi/pole stove would work out. It would reduce the adjustment of the pole. May take up space in the front. I like to hang out in the front. You can move the stove all over the shelter due to the collar system of the Kifaru stove.

I do like it for the larger tipis but never found the stove in the center to be a bad thing. In the paratipi it is the more center pole that eats up space.

Razor.

Just roll the body. That is what I did for my stove. I would not know how to make a side door etc in a round upright stove.

Razor- What's that stove weigh?

Ken,
With hardware and pipe I think it weighed just less than 7 lbs. Those "Z" brackets, which attach to the pole, are simply a heavy shed door handle cut in half. The door handle happened to be dished out along the handle and so mated with the pole pretty well. Anyway, its thick and heavy. Could be swiss-cheesed to lighten it.

I have found with the tipi poles that, once setup, there are two basic positions that I find myself adjusting to at any given pitch site. There is the high and low temp settings. That is, air temps. At night, or during a storm, the tipi sags and I bump up the pole. When warm the tipi shrinks and so I return to the original pitch setting. But I don't adjust the pole. I use a peg or rock to slide under the pole. Once I have something to shim the pole I just leave them by the pole and use them as needed. Its so much faster and easier to slide something under than to try to spread the pole segments. So I don't have a problem with the stove hindering pole settings.

Awesome...that is one interesting stove.

Ed. T is a man of his word. I got the new front for my Kifaru small stove.



The old front still worked fine but the flap came lose. I got the stove in '04 and have burned it 100's of times. Betting my issue is very rare but Kifaru backs their products. Thanks Ed. T