This is prompted by Levi's comment that he is selling some packs to finance a Kifaru 12 man. I'm putting it in backpacking because it isn't so much about kids hunting as it is about having kids in the backcountry.

I've got 3 daughters, now aged 3, 7, and 9. Each of them started backpacking around 6 months. For a long time we used a single REI dome tent that has been going strong since the mid 90s. As they got bigger and space got tight and that tent finally wore out, I started to long for a 12 man Kifaru tipi.

By happenstance, we evolved into what I think is a better solution. We carry two shelters. One is a nice light 4 person single wall / double wall hybrid by GoLite. It is the sleeping tent. The other is either a GoLite SL4 or Sierra Designs Origami 4 with a stove in it. That is the cook and gathering tent. As such, it doesn't need to be big enough to sleep everybody, just sit everybody. On a side note, the SD got a new zipper and the pole from a megamid to make it trail worthy. The SD is about the size of a Kifaru 6 man.

The advantages of the two shelter system:

- More flexibility as to sleeping arrangements. Sometimes we only take the sleeping shelter, sometimes I sleep in it with them, sometimes I sleep in the cook tent so I can be up early without waking them, sometimes only one or two daughters go with dad and all I take is the cook tent. As they get older or want to bring friends, it is easier to add space by putting more and more folks over into the cook tent, or even adding another small tent. Also easier to divide the load.

- the fully enclosed sleeping tent is much better for crawling infants than floorless because you can zip it up and they can mook around all they want, sort of like a big crib. you also don't have to keep them away from the stove all the time.

- once the stove goes out, the sleeping tent maintains heat a lot better than a tipi, or you can run a candle lantern all night long and actually get a surprising amount of warmth.

- easier packing. my overnight pack just stays packed with the cook and gathering tent. If it is just me, I'm ready to head out. If they're coming along, I just throw in the sleeping tent as well.

So, I still long for a 12 man, but I'm not sure it would get that much use. For car camping, I could see using it a lot. For backpacking, I think the two shelter system is better. You definitely want a gathering tent with wood stove that can *seat* everybody, but I don't think you want to go much bigger than that. The bigger the shelter, the bigger the stove you have to carry to heat it, and the less useful body heat is.

So that's my thoughts on the matter. May just be sour grapes because I don't have a 12 man Might have some merit though.

What are other folks experiences with sheltering their families in the backcountry?

No experience yet, but thanks for the info. I've got a 3yo that is chomping at the bit to go along...

I've long thought the two shelter concept for the family has a lot going for it, although I hadn't considered the logistical advantages of one being a more traditional style tent. Segregating sleep and dining goes a long way towards protecting sleeping bags when little ones are along.

I also like the 2 shelter system for my family of 5. My current shelter inventory consists of a Kifaru 4man, SuperTarp and a TarpTent Rainshadow 2.

On our last family trip, our total shelter weight was right around 5lbs (w/o stove) with the SuperTarp and Tarpent. Don't get me wrong, I'd like a 12 man as well, but the weight penalty is significant over two smaller shelters.

In colder weather, we can throw in the 4man with stove. It's still big enough for a gathering tent since my two youngest are only 6.

Awesome pics Browtine!! Thanks for sharing.

I agree w/ Evan and the rest, the two shelter setup is the way to go. So much more versatile. They also take up less room and weigh quite a bit less. This gets even more important when the kids start carrying their own stuff. (Which by the way is wonderful, now that my boys can carry most of their own stuff it has made the whole family backpacking thing much more enjoyable.)

I used to have a Paratipi that the three boys slept in, and the wife and I would sleep in a Supertarp. The boys finally got to big to sleep comfortably in the Paratipi so I sold it and some other stuff and bought the Sawtooth. It just showed up last week so I haven't used it yet. It should get them through the next few years, I figure that by the time they outgrow it they probably won't want to go w/ me as much as they do now. You know, girls and such. Plus, I'm looking at it as my solo winter rambling rig.

Bowtine, I just noticed you are from KS. If I may ask, what area do you call home? We may be neighbors and don't even now it.

Full disclosure: We are in the process of producing a lightweight tipi style structure. Ours is more family based, and was our main impetus. The four of us have been very comfy in a six person tipi and even a four person could work given the right setup. I would recommend a liner when you are near capacity, since four people can give off some condensation, and kids and wives may not be as OK with being wet as guys are. I'm not trying to sell ours at all, but we are calling them versa-structures and you can expand the storage with an awning essentially that can expand gear storage as more people are around. That means the tipi can be fast and light, or expand to be more comfortable or the gear storage.

Our website is still in the works. It is seekoutside.com if interested. We are in final stages trying to get some minor details right. We are probably 3 weeks from the tweaks to the structure and 6 weeks from full setup with all the bells and whistles.

seekoutside, I'm curious to see your awning setup. Rain and condensate protection when you open the door has always seemed the biggest problem with tipi shelters to me.

Evan,

I think for the backcountry it'd be hard to beat the two shelter system as you have described and used. I envision for us, the 12 man Kifaru is going to a great set up for those times like the rendezvous or other car camping trips.

The two shelter system really shines, IMO, when your in the backcountry and camping space is limited. Traci's parents last weekend looked after Willow so we were able to go on a 3 day backpacking trip into the Absaroka-Beartooth wilderness out of Livingston. We backpacked into a great mountain lake and spent a couple of nights. Like a lot of high country lakes finding a level, cleared off space to set up the tipi(in our case a 4 man) can be sometimes difficult. With the 12 man, or even the 8 man tipi, it may be almost impossible in some locations to find a spot big enough to pitch the tipi. Alas, with your system of two smaller shelters, that wouldn't be of concern. But dang that 12 man is going to be nice .

Levi

Footprint size is always a concern. Even with the Sawtooth, there were several nice camp sites in the Pintler Wilderness last weekend that were too small. And even car camping can pose a problem if staying at campgrounds. I know we stayed at a few campgrounds with our 12 man where we were well into the next camp site.

The 12 man is hard to beat where there is enough room.

To paraphrase a movie, never pity a man who has good access to the Absaroka-Beartooth, and never pity a man who owns a 12 man!

Good stuff guys...