After a few years off I am starting to get back into backpack hunting.. My MSR Zoid1 works awesome and keeps me dry even in multiple days of downpours... It just gets small after a few days of living in it..

The Tipi style tents have my interest.. They seem like they would be much more comfortable to live out of for 5-7 day hunts.. I also like the idea of a lightweight packable wood stove.. I was just wondering how the floorless tents are during heavy rain? I'm assuming you have to dig trenches to keep from flooding the inside... And I would also assume that the trenches need to be dug on the inside of the tent (between the wall and the dry area correct?

I am also pondering the idea of sewing a stove jack into a lightweight tarp or fly of some kind and lashing together a frame of some kind (natural poles maybe) once I reach the camp spot..Anyone do this?

If pitched in a suitable location, I have not had problems during a heavy rain or had a need to dig trenches. Now, I've hastily pitched one before in a location that wasn't suitable (stupid me , when there was a better location 50 yards away, but I thought this looks sort of established) and trenches were needed.

I've stayed much drier during rain in floorless shelters than I ever did in tents with floors(never dug a trench)
Tim

Keep in mind that it is usually snowing when you pack in to the high country during deer season, so rain runoff isn't much of a problem.

I see your in the D7 area, do you pack into the Ansel Adams? I used to do pretty good in there sometimes

The soil where I have camped has always absorbed all the moisture.

I've used a 12 man and 4 man Kifrau for ten years......updated the 4 man to a Sawtooth this year as that's far more efficient.

I am following these tipi threads as I have interest but can't get by the dirt floor. Aren't you always dragging around dirt and debris? Can't critters crawl under and get into the gear?
Aren't they drafty and prone to get wet in a downpour? The stove is nice but you can get heat with a sewn in floor. Still trying to be open mined.

Not really dragging dirt, in fact in a way cleaner. A floored tent you bring dirt into and it stays unless you clean it out. A floorless tent, you walk in no big deal, use a ground sheet to keep your stuff clean. If the ground sheet has dirt pick it up and shake it out. In fact it's pretty easy to fashion a tipi floor from a tarp and we have instructions on our web site. Other solutions are a lightweight bivy, or a nest. I find a ground sheet sufficient and often times don't even take one of those.

Drafty, it depends on how close to the ground they pitch. That being said aren't all tents drafty ? They usually have netting with a fly over them.

In a downpour, see the comments from above. I've gotten wet in floored tents where water seeped in through the floor, and then you have no choice. Most of the time the ground absorbs the water. If you spill something on the ground there is nothing to clean up.

That being said, look at tarp campers. There are a lot of tarp campers, no floor, same thing. Wall tents, aren't floored either.

Yeah, hang a hammock under that tarp, if you have trees and it isn't cold enough for a stove. Tent floors suck.

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it...

I'm thinking I may buy a stove jack and sew it into a fly or tarp and see what kind of frame I can erect out of the limbs/tree's etc... At the areas I camp... Anyone done this?

Rizzy, I mostly go into the John Muir Wilderness... Are you from around here?

I'm way behind on these modern day tents and the tipi looks mighty good but what is a NEST?

A nest is a fully enclosed screen room essentially that sits inside.

Here is a question:

Would a floor and liner combo be enough protection for most folks ?

I am originally from Socal, I used to go up and hunt the madera county side of D7 nearly every year. I live in Idaho now, however my dad lives in Auberry near the top of the 4 lane. I have always wanted to hunt D7 going in from the X9A side, I might give it a try next season....

The floorless shelters are at their best in high country backpacking/hunting scenarios. I have used my supertarp in mid elevation 1 time this summer and fought mosquitos the whole night. Mice would travel in and out on occasion, however it didn't bother me. It is super convenient to be able to wake up and boil water while still in the sleeping bag and then dump out what you don't need.

Never been wet in a floorless tent. I doubt I will ever own a tent with a floor again.


Travis

Can you do a floorless tent / tipi w/o a stove? The whole point of a floorless tent, if I get this right, is to save weight. If I gotta tote a stove, that sort of defeats the purpose. Further, much of the time I like to hike in for hunting is still in fire season and all fires outside of designated campgrounds are illegal. There's no designated campground where I go. A gas stove is the only legal source of heat.

Not a problem not using a stove, I don't use one unless usually until about this time of year, and I stop in April unless I am camping up on snow.

Where I hunt in the early season the skeeters will carry you away if you don't have protection from them... Most tents and tipi's should keep them at bay.. Also a plus for tipi'e with the sod cloth..


The only concern about floor less I had was the water running in during rain... Where I hunt the dirt is fine coarse and full of pitch so it doesn't just soak in right away... digging a trench is not a big deal really, I was just thinking to be effective the trench would have to be on the inside of the tent for and water than runs under it after shedding off the sides...

Small world, I live only a few miles from the top of the 4 lane..

I have hiked into D7 from the X9a side... Unless you go way in it's hard to get away from the day hikers around Mammoth.. Seems like you have to hike for ever to reach timberline type terrain from the west side of the Sierra's...But from the East side it's a hop skip and a jump..

Muley,
Yes I've tried the tarp and stove. Not worth it from my experience. You really need an enclosed shelter to get the most benefit for a stove, drying clothes, saturated warmth etc.

Thanks Spence, I was thinking about modifying a tarp/fly so that it will wrap around a rigid frame (out of limbs trees,etc...) and be fully enclosed... At least until I can afford one of the nice shelters.. I guess it will give me something to do in the winter and help with cabin fever..lol

Kevin, I could live with that, but I'd rather much not have the floor at all....

I might well cut the floor out if thats how it came, but if the wife saw the floor in there, well it would be done then I'd have to keep it... Floor certainly couldn't add but a few more ounce..

MuleyFan:

You have asked a question that fans the embers on a controversy that is always simmering below the surface on this forum. That's single wall tents vs double wall tents. Here's my take on the subject.

SINGLE WALL TENTS VS DOUBLE WALL TENTS

Currently in the backpacking community, there is an energetic debate regarding which system is best, a single wall tent with a stove or a double wall tent with a floor. Each system has its� benefits and liabilities and much is dependent upon anticipated weather and terrain where you�re going to be using your shelter.

There are a bunch of good guys with lots of backpacking experience, that know what they�re doing, who advocate for single-wall tents with a lightweight, collapsible wood burning stove and no floor, as their primary backpacking shelter. I respectfully disagree.

I think I�m also a good guy who knows what he�s doing and I advocate for double-wall backpacking tents. I�ve been backpacking for fifty years and gone on maybe 300 wilderness backpack trips in that time. I�ve used every kind of tent that�s manufactured, and some that I made myself, including single-wall tents with wood burning stoves and no floors. I think there are more benefits and fewer liabilities when using double-wall tents vs single-wall tents.

Single-wall tents are significantly lighter than double-wall tents and weight is a primary concern for anyone who does more than the occasional casual backpacking trip. But moisture will condense on the inside of a single-wall tent unless you use a stove to keep the interior warm. If you don�t use a stove inside, the condensation will get everything inside the tent wet, even if it�s dry outside. By the time that you add the stove and ground cloth, the entire assembly is as heavy, sometimes heavier, than a double-wall tent.

I own several single-wall tents including a Black Diamond One Shot http://www.trailspace.com/gear/black-diamond/oneshot/ and a Sierra Designs Origami-3 http://www.sierradesigns.com/p-294-origami-3-tarp.aspx. Both have problems with condensation on the inside of the waterproof single-wall fabric. Yes, you can deal with the condensation problem but why bother when there are acceptable alternatives. I also own several traditional canvas tents that are impregnated with parafine/oil. They are waterproof and they breathe and they work great but they are way too heavy and bulky for backpacking.

Another thing to consider is that teepee style tents have sloping walls and although they may have a bigger floor plan, the useable floor space is less because of the sloping walls.

I do a lot of camping in places where there is no wood available. In that situation wood burning stoves are superfluous extra weight








Double-wall tents do a better job of keeping out insects than single-wall tents without floors. There have been times when the vampire mosquitoes would have eaten me alive if I had been sleeping in a single-wall tent. One can employ methods such as repellent and staking the walls tight to the ground, to reduce the insect problem inside a single-wall tent, but it�s a lot of trouble and never quite as good as a double-wall tent. It�s much easier to keep out insects when using a double-wall tent.

Some people like the warmth inside a single-wall tent with a stove, in cold weather. That�s hard to disregard but that warmth comes with a price. Since single-wall tents are lighter than double-wall tents, you can carry a single-wall tent with a bigger floor area than a double-wall tent for the same or less weight. But the stove presents a hazard that must be accounted for. A good way to ruin a sleeping bag is to roll up against a hot stove while you�re sleeping. So you have to give up some floor space to the stove and the end result is the same or less usable floor space for the same or more weight. However, even with all that taken into consideration, it�s real nice in the middle of a snow storm to be able to lounge around inside a heated tent.

The small, lightweight, collapsible stoves require constant work to keep them going. You can only use small pieces of wood so you have a big pile of twigs and you have to keep feeding them into the stove to keep it working. If you go to sleep, which is of course what you�re hoping for, the stove will go out. The tent will get cold inside and moisture will condense and freeze on the inside of the tent wall. In the morning when you restart the stove all that frost will melt and things will get just as wet as if you had no stove at all.

I guess in the final analysis I just don�t want to have to deal with the stove. I usually wait until last light to setup my tent and settle in for the night. By that time I�m usually pretty tuckered out and I just want to get inside my sleeping bag and get some rest. I don't want to have to collect a bunch of firewood and break it into pieces small enough to use in the stove and I don�t want to have to mess around with a stove inside my tent.

When I rent horses for an extended trip, I take a big standup dome tent and a small propane space heater. I run the space heater for short periods of time to heat up the tent. The effect is about the same as using a wood burning stove because both heaters are running when you�re awake and they�re not running when you�re sleeping.

There�s an art to keeping warm when sleeping in temperatures below zero. Start by insulating yourself from the frozen ground and then use a really good sleeping bag. I suggest that you use both a closed cell foam sleeping pad and a self inflating pad like a Thermarest. Wrap one inside the other for packing and sleep on both of them. You need a mummy style sleeping bag rated at 0� or colder.

A good 4-season, double wall backpack tent with a vestibule will make a big difference. It's important to keep the inside of the tent free of snow and dry. So leave your boots in the vestibule. One big advantage of sleeping directly on the snow is that there won't be any rocks, sticks or bumps under you and the snow will eventually conform to your body contours. If you setup your tent on the snow then first put a light waterproof tarp on the inside of the floor. Any moisture will run under the tarp and freeze between the tarp and the tent floor. Next build a nest inside the tent with extra clothes, stuff sacks, backpacks, etc. This keeps you from rolling off the sleeping pads onto the frozen floor of the tent. Wear only clean dry clothing to bed. Wet clothes, even those wet with only perspiration, will take several hours to dry. Wear your knitted hat to bed as a nightcap. Also sleep 2 to a tent and the extra body heat will make a difference. If your feet are cold, zip up your coat and slip it over the bottom of your sleeping bag. If your chest is cold, put your coat on inside the sleeping bag.

Bring a good thermos with an insulator. I couldn't find an insulator big enough to take a thermos, so I built my own using foam rubber and duct tape. At night first temper the thermos and then fill it with boiling water and put it inside the insulator and then inside your backpack. In the morning you have hot water for instant cocoa and oatmeal without getting out of your sleeping bag. Bring a wide mouth pee bottle so that you can urinate in the middle of the night without leaving the tent.

There�s one more thing that really bothers me about some of the teepee style single-wall tents and that�s the price. Some of the manufacturers must be from another planet because their prices are out of this world. Some manufacturers are asking $1,000 for a 6-man teepee, $750 for 4-man teepee, that are really nothing more than a fancy sewn tarp. I don�t mind paying the price to get the best gear but I'm disenchanted when I think a vendor is trying to over-charge me.

There�s really no right or wrong way to do it. Each system has its� benefits and liabilities. The important thing is that you go, do it and enjoy yourself.

KC

KC, you heard the one about the guy who ordered two pounds of Kielbasa? The clerk asked him if he was a pollack. The guy smiled and replied, "Did you figure that out because I ordered the kielbasa?" The clerk replied, "No, cause this is a [bleep] hardware store."

Last I checked this was a hunting/fishing site, not a mountaineering site. Your description of tent living would work great on Hayes or Denali, it sucks in the southern appalachians or the rockies below timberline, especially for a hunter who will hunt a drainage for several days.

As for "rip off" prices, why don't you go into business making them since its so damned lucrative? What do you think a VE25 would cost if it were sewn by white people who live in houses like you and I do and not by little brown people in sweatshops? I remember what they used to cost when they were US made over 20 years ago.

KC -

Thanks for the info. That's a really nice write-up, good explanation of the tradeoffs. Your conclusions mirror mine, but you've got a lot more data points to support them.

Tom

This isn't meant to be a sales pitch, or justification, just some comments and stories.

Well, one of the reason for the price is the fabric is expensive and it is american labor. For example, Ed T's backcountry shelter, is only (and I say only) $129 more than a golite 4 person, the sizing is a bit smaller but not a lot and it is taller. I actually feel pretty good about that considering they are sewn in grand junction vs. overseas, and use U.S made materials, comes with additional features as well. We can't keep up with the golite 40% off sale, because well we try to price things at a real price. If you are constantly able to give 40% doesn't that mean you are screwing people the rest of the time ?

As for the debate of which approach is better, there are certainly benefits to double wall tents, ( not size, weight or livability) but heck there are benefits to cowboy camping under the stars as well (in good weather). The condensation issue is easily solved with a liner, which does not add much weight (I think on our 8 person it's under 2 lbs and on our 4 person it's closer to 1 lb). A 2 person nest with DWR on the outside works well to minimize condensation and keep everything bug free and clean if you like, like a double wall tent on the inside (we have a proto we've made, but aren't actually producing them yet) as well. The wood stove, yes you have to stoke it, and if you have big enough wood, it still needs stoking on about a 45 minute interval,if your wood is small it's 15 minutes stoking, but it does provide a cozyness, especially when the weather turns real sour. It's also nice to be warm without having to be in your bag or having all your gear on.

There is one thing I would consider a bit of a fallicy though and that is bugs and rodents, etc. I know people worry about it a lot, but it isn't that much of an issue unless they are like fleas and the like. In our tipi's we have a sod skirt for a pretty tight seal, and you can still vent through the screen door pretty effectively. If a marmot, will eat through the wiring and stuff on your jeep parked up high, it will certainly eat through your tent if it wants to be it a single wall , double wall or whatever. So it's two pieces of fabric instead of one, if something wants in that has the capability it will. Spiders are a bit the same, they get in your house, which should be way more secure than a tent so what makes you think they won't get in your tent ?

In the end it's a decision of what is important to you ? If you prefer the advantages in a double wall, then do a double wall. If you prefer to have more space and stand up height with the ability to run a stove, then go that route. There is no right or wrong. This year , I've cowboy camped, single wall camped, used a liner at times, a stove at times, slept in a nest and tarp camped.
My boys (which are fantastic and ages 8 and 11) spent a month in a tipi, a month in a tarp and a month cowboy camping under the lilacs in our front yard. Even when it rained, they said, you know the lilacs don't allow much water through, I said ok you know where the house is. In fact, the oldest one once said this summer "the yard is so comfortable" . I had to chuckle. They get out in the woods to, but during the summer if they are at our house it's sleeping in the yard. They have also ran a stove on their own and cooked on it, and they spent a couple weeks in a nest (without any overhead protection).

They all work, heck I'm not even sure what I'm taking on my hunt next week. I suspect if the weather looks foul I'll take a 6 man and a stove, if it doesn't I might take the backcountry shelter, with or without a stove, if it looks mild I might just go tarp and bivy , or tarp and nest. I know it will probably be below or near freezing every morning so warmth will be a big issue.

I'll pay a bit more every day to have better materials, better made and in the USA.

The overseas stuff is always a ripoff in the end....

i'm sold on floorless for any situation. If no wood, don't carry the stove. Beyond that its no different. Have been in the 4 season tents and its as cold inside them as outside basically IE we had 5 degrees one morning, water bottles frozen solid etc.... coudln't have been much colder with a single wall at all...

Not true at all. I use single wall tents for most hunting and backpacking trips (mostly a B-D Mega-light without a stove)and have never (not once) gotten "everything inside the tent wet." Come to think of it, the only thing I've ever gotten wet was a hat or jacket sleeve that I've bumped against the interior, and a few drops here and there on other stuff. This year's trip was in a K-tipi with rain every day and nothing inside the tent got wet. I use a down bag, and if the quote above were true I'd probably be dead by now, or at least I'd have been compelled to get a synthetic bag with a waterproof liner.

I have to agree with you smokepole. My experience with my GoLite SL-5 mimics yours tipi experiences. After 7 out of 8 days in the pouring rain on an Alaska range sheep hunt this fall in down bags the only thing that gets wet is my back or sleeve as it brushes the inside of the tipi. Never once did it ever condensate so bag to have it drip or even start to develop drips. Not sure which tipi you were uses KC, but my experience is in stark contrast to yours.

Sounds more like a poor quality tipi or poor tipi pitching perhaps?? Regardless its something I hope to never replicate. So far with over 50 nights spent in my SL-5 I have yet to experience that.

Have spent enough time in everything from a paratipi to a 12 man from a moose hunts in a skeeter swamp to bou on the tundra to mt goats in the costal mountains of BC. Worst of all weather I have been in was 85 recorded winds
And sideways rain for over 60 hours straight on a bou hunt. Never got wet
never had to reset a peg and never have dug a trench. It is purely a
matter of what makes you feel comfortable. I can say this, I will never own a tent with a floor ever again, and when it's 10 degrees outside I don't care how much of a he man you think you are getting warmed up just feels good.

As a counter point, I don't think KC has a single valid point in any of his review.

We're not talking about climbing Mt. Everest. We're talking about backpack hunting. It took me a lot less years than KC to figure out floorless tipis kick all ass.


Travis

Yep, I'm with wildone on this,

Heat is goooooooooood!!

No one is talking about the Appy Trails 5 man. Looks like a great value. Anyone try one yet?

Montana Canvas made a nylon single pole, single wall tent with a hybrid floor. Zippered area so you could make room for the stove when needed and about a foot of heavy netting across the entry area. Which led us to question why bother with the floor. It was heavy at 22 pounds without pole. Made a great home for 10 days in the wilderness.

I still have a wyominglostandfound tipi plus stove for sale. It was in the classifieds a while back. I like the setup a lot...just not looking like I'm gonna need it for the foreseeable future. New condition.