We will be in Las Vegas this week, at the ISE show that runs alongside RMEF Elk Camp. As a way of saying thanks to the folks on campfire, we want to extend our show sale special to you folks so you can take advantage of the special even though you aren't there in person.

The special is for 3 days only. Feb 2nd thru the 4th. The special sale is 18% off the following items
- 6 and 8 person tipis
- large and extra large wood titanium wood stoves

This is an opportunity for significant savings. This special does not apply to bundles, liners, the medium stove , the BCS or the three person tipi.

To use this special just use the coupon code "ElkCamp12" in the shopping cart at seekoutside.com/

Bump

Really good deals on the larger tipi's and stoves. Starts tomorrow, ends Saturday.

Here is a link to our February Update Feb Update

It talks about upcoming shows we will be at (there will be specials during the shows), new products and status and some other items.

Kevin

Kevin,

Is there a way to view what the specials will be at the show? I may drive down to Missoula.


Travis

"Little Bugout Shelter" and "12 Man Tipi" sound VERY interesting, am waiting eagerly to see just how these evolve.

Travis: Special will be on three person and BCS. We will announce it on our mailer as well and make it available the dates of the show over the website. I'm not sure the exact details yet (if it will be tent or tent / stove combo).

Hope to see you there, face time is always nice.

Kutenay: I think people will be very impressed with the little bug out and 12 man. We should be showing the little bug out in the next few days, the 12 man will probably be April.

With the 12 we have a pretty good idea what we want to do with fabric, structure, guyout etc, but we are all ears on features you might like to see. So , by all means shoot us an email. There are a couple of very cool features on the drawing board for it.

Thanks
Kevin

Thank you sir. Appreciate it.


Travis

I am looking forward to this sale as well. I am hoping i have everything sold in time.....

Kevin, are you still kicking around or experimenting with the idea of a heat-reflective fabric or liner for the tipis?

8SNAKE: Yes there is some testing taking place.

Excellent. I look forward to more information about that in the future.

Travis. Text me if you're heading to Zootown. I've already got some vacation time scheduled and a room booked Friday night (and Mary the thick party girl ex GF.)

The special for the BCA show will also be available on our Web Site Thur - Sunday.

It is as follows

Save $65.00 on a 3 Person Tipi use coupon code "3p65".
3 Person Tipi Details



The three person is a terrific little tent. The stove jack is not included on the tent, but is easily added and taken off in place of a vent.

I'll be ordering a 3-man with a stove jack tommorrow. That is the shelter I've been waiting for.

Kevin, what is the reccomended stove pipe length for the 3-man?

Just spent the weekend in a BCS. Haven't had time to write up my initial impressions yet, but suffice it to say I'm very impressed with Seekoutside construction. These are the best built floorless shelters I've used, with the possible exception of the original (heavy) megamids. Here's a brief video clip of "the morning after"

[video:youtube]FT7H6uMtuOY[/video]

ETA: The last shelter shown had a compromised pitch due to snow that had softened the previous day causing some stake drift that couldn't be adequately remedied without completely re-pitching the shelter. It did get a rip low on the sidewall in the windstorm.

I hope you will write a review when you have more time.

Pipe length for a three person, 6 ft is fine most cases. You could go 6.5 or 7 if you are planning on using it in other shelters, or just want a bit longer pipe. Our stoves sit a foot up, with the damper they are probably 14" from the ground. The apex of the tipi is about 5'10".

In the spirit of helping others draw an unbiased comparison from watching that video, what might the Seek Outside shelters have looked like if they were as out in the open and pitched as poorly as the Kifaru obviously was?

Allen, I know you understood the significance of my "compromised pitch" comment, but you're right that other folks may not have gotten it. So I'll expand on that.

With any of these tipi style shelters, solid stakes are a key part of the integrity of the pitch. That's why I'm such a fan of the military surplus stakes I keep recommending. They do really well in just about any circumstance. It's also why I really like my GoLite Utopia 2. It is a floorless shelter, but the integrity of the pitch doesn't rely on good staking. I've had that 12 man out in equivalent winds to what we experienced this weekend without any significant problems. In fact, it was rock solid when both a 16 man and 24 man had to get rescued from blowing over at the last CO rondy. The difference was my use of military stakes and 9" groundhog knock offs versus durapegs on the tipis that started to blow over. All tipis by the same maker, but the stakes made the difference. Size probably had a little to do with it too.

In the case of the video, the 12 man was in about the worst staking conditions you could ask for. A couple feet of snow that thawed out and turned to mush on a sunny day. Oh, and hard frozen ground below that you couldn't have driven SSTs into. All of the other shelters were pitched in the shade where the snow never thawed. Wind conditions were the same, as the wind was coming from the opposite direction as shown in the video all night long. When we first pitched the 12 man, it was below freezing and we got a good pitch. A couple folks suggested throwing snow around the outside edge of the tipi to solidify that pitch. That method works well and I've used it a bunch in the past. I vetoed that because this 5 year old tipi is very prone to ripping and I'm tired of patching it. Since it ripped in the wind and I've got to patch it anyway, might as well have gone with the snow edge.

The big mistake was not having a full complement of the 12" military stakes. I had 6 of them along with 4 9" ones, and then a bunch of the 9" groundhog knock offs. As the day wore on and we kept re-staking as the stakes drifted, we ended up with 12" mil, 9" mil, 9" groundhog, 12+" durapeg, and wooden firewood splits. The 12" mil and firewood splits resisted drifting the most. The firewood splits were the best performers because they didn't channel heat into the snow and melt around them, but had good holding power. We probably should have replaced every stake with a firewood split. I should note that the only way that it is possible to use firewood splits or mil stakes on that 12 man is because I replaced all of the stake loops with bigger ones out of webbing instead of edge binding. Deadman snow anchors probably would have performed well, but we weren't set up with a bunch of stuff sacks to implement that.

So, how would the SO 8 man tipis have performed out in the mush? They're smaller, and surface area does matter when it comes to wind load. Something to keep in mind when you're thinking about what size shelter to get. Other than that, they would have been just as susceptible to stake drift as any other shelter.

The fabric in the SOs is a lot thicker and stronger, so I wouldn't have expected a rip even with wind buffeting. In fact, here's an interesting anecdote -- one of the SO 8 man tipis was new out of the bag, but had several cuts in the fabric near the cone. (The damage had to have been inflicted during either packing or shipping, and SO replaced it without complaint). At any rate, when it got put up and those cuts were discovered, I thought to myself "those are going to be a lot bigger come morning". This was before the wind really picked up. To my surprise, they were a little frayed around the edges, but hadn't gotten any bigger despite several hours of wind buffeting. I consider that excellent fabric performance.

If I keep this up, I'll have a review written! At any rate, the video wasn't meant as a compare and contrast. It was meant to show how much wind we were getting and so folks could see how these types of shelters generically behave under wind load. At this point, you can also add how they behave with varying pitch qualities as well. Stake selection is absolutely key to pitch quality, and pitch quality is absolutely key to structural integrity.

Excellent. 100% aboveboard response Evan. As usual.

So essentially, when used properly, regardless of brand when we are looking into these high end shelters, proper use is of utmost importance. Weird, that would be the case......

Evan, thanks for the information on staking out etc. A BCS is in my future, as well as a Breakaway tarp.

What exactly are the ...military stakes... you mentioned and where might one buy some of these?

So far, the best I have found are the 9ish inch steel pins from REI and the Coghlans longer ones with the little orange doodads on their top ends.

I would really like to be able to stake and totally trust my Kifaru 8-man and would like to find some better stakes than those I now have. The stuffsack-deadman method is OK, but, it is not that easy in many conditions and I would prefer stakes.

I have one of the original Chouinard Pyramids made even before the Megamids were introduced and it is very stout, but, mine is worn on the bottom edges with the polyurethane peeling a bit and it is that depressing dark blue, which I really dislike.

I have a tipi myself, but I'm still learning exactly how to and how not to pitch it. I'm also curious about the stakes that you like so well. Do you have a link? Also I'd be interested in some info on the do's/dont's of pitching. It just seems hit or miss for me to get it right. When I do, it's great, but I've never really pinned it down as to what I'm doing wrong when it's not taught when standing. Also setting up on a bit of a slope seems to throw me off a little too. Tips?

Evan,

You are spot on as far as the importance of staking. I also like the Coghlans knockoffs as well as MSR Groundhogs and I just picked up some of the new MSR Cyclone stakes. At 10" with the twist pattern they should hold very well.
http://www.rei.com/product/829839/msr-cyclone-tent-stakes-4-pack

An important pice with stakes, is to pound them into ground leval or slightly below when ever you can. That is why I carry a variety of stakes and lengths as the ground can vary in a single pitch.

These are the military stakes I like:
http://www.mcssl.com/store/aamsusa/catalog/product/c8ea453c342047eaa9a70e2ca4c5ed7d

In my case, the local surplus store has them in 9" and 12" lengths. For staking the 12 man in most conditions, I use (4) of the 9" ones for the first 4 stakes, and then the 9" coghlans ground hog knock offs for the rest. In the case of the sloppy snow described above, I really wanted *all* 12" ones. I suspect I'd feel the same about sand. The 9" ones are 2oz apiece, so they add up. That's why I try to minimize using them as much as possible. But when you need a solid stake, you need a solid stake. I've typically got at least one, just in case.

My method for tipi pitching is straightforward and no hassle. It is based on the Kifaru method, but varies somewhat from how I've watched Patrick pitch tipis. Just need to know the setbacks. In the case of an 8 person SO, the initial setback is 4 feet if I remember correctly. Then the side setbacks are each 1 foot I think. In the case of the Kifaru 12 man it's 6 9" stake lengths and 1 9" stake length on each side. Here's the procedure:

- stake down the back door
- pull the front door loop all the way taut
- measure your length setback back from the taut distance
- stake the front door at your setback distance
- pull the sidemost stake loops all the way taut
- set them each back the side setback length and stake them
- put the center pole in place and re-zip the door
- stake out each of the four stake loops that are the midpoints between the stakes you've just driven. in each case, pull them as taut as you can. (on the SO 8 man, you can't go directly between them. Choose one of the nearest ones to center and go with that)
- now that all 8 of your anchor stakes are in and pulled tight, go around and put stakes in the rest of the loops, pulling taut each time. No need to alternate or anything like on the first 8. Just go around in a circle.

Using this method, the only thing you have to remember is two setback measurements (which you can remember as stake lengths), and then everything else just gets pulled taut. No measuring out from the center pole at specified intervals, no pulling out and re-staking stakes, no trying to pull the edge at a certain angle. This has always given me a quick taut pitch.

DIY

Levelness matters a lot. Think of it as a right triangle, where 1" makes a big difference in tension. I often use tensioners to compensate for ground irregularities, but I use them minimally, perhaps 4 per tent, and in winds higher than 30 I try to avoid them. I use them in low spots to compensate.

I'm not sure how your tie out is constructed, but you could use a little para with a taughtline for adjustment.

Stake selection would be an excellent article / blog post etc if someone is interested. It varies so much. In loose ground having better depth is better than more surface area, in some areas though where the soil is not deep then surface area matters most. In loose snow some things can be used, but in snow over frozen ground it's another challenge. I use concrete screws when our ground is really frozen and snow depth is minimal. When snow is deep and soft I probably prefer buried anchors with adjustment lines. Sometimes I have used stuff sacks filled with rocks. I left a BCS up for a week with nothing but stuff sacks and rocks. They would move in higher winds, but I could have thrown in more rocks.

There are some articles on backpackinglight on stakes but most require an account.

Anyone ever play with SMC snow stakes?

Also, anyone ever use a mountaineering snow picket or two to reinforce a tipi set up?

The Portland Oregon Craigslist has an ad under sporting goods for the stakes and sets of the camo net supports.

I have purchased stakes from him before and he is good to deal with. He owns and manages an RV storage yard and he and his brother got a pipe of the stuff as they had storage room.

I am trying to get a deal on some camo net support kits for use with wall tents but he wants a bit too much for them.

TAK, I've tried to use the SMC snow stakes a few times over the years and have never been impressed with them. I've got a half dozen out in the garage. They've been in production so long I keep wondering what I'm not understanding. Never tried pickets. Skis work pretty well, but then you're stuck without transportation.

What little bit I used them on spring ski trips in AK they worked great. Always below freezing and really powdery snow with a crust that late usually.

On second thought I can see how they would be problematic for a tipi because you have to drive them and let 'em "freeze" through the holes in the stake before you load them. That really wouldn't work for a tipi. Might work for guyouts, if you could wait to load them.

If I was on skis with a sled I would strongly consider mountaineering pickets. A light weight engineered product.

I've driven many of those GI issue stakes into frozen tundra setting up that POS boat anchor arctic squad tent.

I have used the long SMC snow stakes and they work OK if the snow is really packed well. I use something longer for at least the 4 main anchor points though. I have also used aluminum deadmen. I have a homemade set of SST pins that are longer than the Kifaru's that work well in certain conditions.

How well stakes work is so dependant on location. In some areas, all I can get in is a Vargo Ti nail stake and at times I have tied out to large rocks when camping in southern Utah.

Like Evan said the use of skis or ski poles limites travel options unless you are moving each night.

Your impressions of the BCS please.

I mentioned the importance of staking on another forum but, that was taken as blasphemy. I had questioned an Olympic god.

Bushcraft says reviews are only as good as the people reviewing them. I say they are only as good as the people reading them. One has to be able to think a bit for himself. In my case that is very little. I look forward to your unbiased impressions. Thanks

Everybody has biases they bring into an evaluation. Like any good anthropologist (my college degree), I'll do my best to state my biases up front so folks can take those into account when evaluating my review.

My review of the BCS is going to be a long term thing, but I will get initial impressions up as soon as I can. Just right now, I'm working two almost full time jobs. Time is in short supply, but I plan to get to it this week.

What are you going to do with all that money?



OK let me rephrase that. I know who you are and I know you go way out there to camp and hunt. Kinda like the places I go so I am interested in your impression be it biased or unbiased.

Can anyone (Kevin mainly) give a Cliff Notes version of the general differences between the discontinued 4-man and the current 3-man tipi? I'm curious because it appears there are still some 4-man tipis available and the weight difference doesn't seem too significant. Thanks, and sorry to hijack the stake discussion.
sd

Here is the explanation that Kevin gave me a little while back. Essentially with the introduction of the BCS they didn't want competing products in their own line up. The 3 is hard to beat for what it offers/price, and you can see from some of the pictures on their sight that you can get 4 in there if you HAD to. So in doing my research for my own tipi the number should be cut in half, especially if you get a stove.

After talking with Kevin for a while I have decided that the BCS is what I am going to buy. With the Breakaway Tarp in what is doghouse mode I can put all of my gear out there, or even set it up with the awning for an extra bed space for someone. Essentially the versatility of the BCS would be better than the 4, for pretty close to the same price with the optional features of the BCS.

The disadvantage for me is simply that I am going to have to save up a little bit more cash before i can purchase it with the extra panel. But I feel that I can fit 3 in there for sleeping when necessary, or haul the Vertex 5 if I need more space or the tarp for the system they planned.

Hope all that helps.

I said *working* two almost full time jobs, not *earning* two almost full time wages. One of the jobs is mostly a time investment in the future right now.

At any rate, the review is done and located here.

I'm going to try to keep all of my ongoing BCS review material including questions and answers consolidated in one place, which is over there.

Good review, thorough.
I thought the center height was 7'?

It is 7 ft
We are in Missoula this weekend hope to see u there

Thanks sreekers. That does help.

Angie will be in Kamloops at the Wild Sheep Convention this weekend. We have posted our show special as well as new product information in this blog post
March Update and Wild Sheep Special

I'm ordering Friday.

Finally....


Travis

Incidentally, my brother Scot just posted a review of the SO extra large stove:
http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/tabid/679/forumid/23/threadid/1322/scope/posts/Default.aspx

Bump 10% off tents this weekend for wildsheep show. It will be the last special for awhile.

Done and done.

What's the turn around right now Kevin?


Travis

6- 8 weeks , perhaps sooner, we have a new sewer getting trained, so once she is up to task the timeline should move forward.

Thanks
Kevin

10-4. Thanks sir.


Travis

Kevin, I am anxiously awaiting for more pics and info on the little bugout shelter. Let us know soon as you can the pricing and when they are going to be ready to order. Of coarse I have to get one, I am really liking this system you have going with the nests.

I got my pole yesterday, really like it, and ready to try it out. BCS is next.

Does the BCS have a tie out on the top in case a person wanted to eliminate the pole and tie to a tree limb?

Yes the BCS has a top tie out, hang loop.

Big_W will do, I should have more info on it in the next few days.

Have you seen the photo's of the 12 man ? It's going to be pretty sweet.

The little bug-out got a stove jack?

Pretty sure we need more pics, Kevin

Thanks Kevin, time to save some coin..

The little bug out can have a stove jack, it won't be sold with one standard.

I'll get more pics as I get a couple production samples.

Reminder enter to win a BCS, drawing in early April
Win a backcountry shelter

Just do a "like" on facebook or sign up for our low volume mailer. Your information is not shared.

Also, we still have introductory pricing on the new person for the next few days. This is a really nice tent and has done really well in adverse weather conditions.


Thanks
Kevin