with training for altitude? I know it looks stupid, but I live about a yard or two below sea level and I am hunting a steep unit in Colorado in October.

The theory is you increase your deadspace ventilation thereby lowering the fraction of inspired oxygen thus mimicking higher altitudes.

I'm curious if any of you have actually done this.

Thanks,

andy

I've never heard of doing that. I have heard serious climbers who live at low altitude sleep in hypoxic tents to help acclimate themselves.

http://www.higherpeak.com/index.html

Climbing bleachers, jogging, walking, hiking, working with weights, training with loaded backpacks, they all help build stamina and cardio-vascular health. The better health you're in the better off you'll be.

However, I cannot comment on the snorkle idea.

I do believe a body has to acclimate to the altitude, being in good cardio shape with decent muscle tone helps to acclimate quicker perhaps, as your body us more efficient at utilizing the O2 if you are in shape. If you're out of shape and struggling just to climb or whatever, the the effects of the altitude will be exacerbated.

But I believe there is no substitute for being there. It is something your body just has to do. You're dealing with lower oxygen levels, air pressure changes, dryer air, etc.

I'm pretty sure it is safe to say there is no real way to acclimate your body to the effects of high altitude other than being at high altitude. I've made numerous trips to Colorado skiing and this has been my experience.

If there is a way, I'd like to know it.

In my 20"s I was doing the 14ers and we did at lot of wind sprints before we headed out to CO, I don't know if it helped that much.

Huffing and puffing doesn't mean that your tired, you can huff all day long and still have your legs.

If you can add a few days on your trip, stay up high somewhere, walk around town the first day and then take a few moderate hikes over the next few, drink lots of water.

You will still breathe hard, but a few days getting used to the altitude, lots of water and no alcohol always seemed to keep me from getting sick.

I've been told to push mow the yard all summer with a plastic bag over my head to simulate altitude.


I know we have some die hards here, but please do not try this.

Link

Ibuprofen may ward off altitude sickness

Ibuprofen has been used for decades to treat pain. Now, research suggests the drug's anti-inflammatory properties also may help prevent the piercing headaches and other symptoms of altitude sickness.

A small new study, published this week in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, found that people who took four 600-milligram doses of ibuprofen over a 24-hour period in which they ascended to 12,570 feet above sea level were less likely to experience altitude sickness than people taking a placebo.

Sixty-nine percent of the participants who took placebo during the ascent developed the headaches, nausea, dizziness, and fatigue that characterize altitude sickness, also known as acute mountain sickness. By contrast, just 43% of people who took ibuprofen developed the condition.

The prospect of using an over-the-counter pain reliever to stave off altitude sickness is appealing, the researchers say, because the only two drugs currently approved to prevent and treat the condition, acetazolamide and dexamethasone, are prescription-only and carry a risk of side effects.

In fact, many doctors are reluctant to prescribe acetazolamide or dexamethasone unless a person has experienced altitude sickness before, says Robert Roach, Ph.D., director of the Altitude Research Center at the University of Colorado Denver School of Medicine, who was not involved in the study.

Ibuprofen appears to be nearly as effective as acetazolamide and dexamethasone, so it may be an option for people traveling to high altitudes who don't yet know if they're susceptible, Roach adds.

In general, he says, 20% to 30% of people will experience altitude sickness at 7,000 feet, and up to 50% will get sick at 10,000 feet.

The study took place in California's White Mountains. Eighty-six men and women who lived close to sea level spent the night at 4,100 feet. In the morning, they drove to an elevation of 11,700 feet and proceeded to hike to 12,570 feet, where they again spent the night.

The participants took the four doses of ibuprofen (or placebo) about every six hours. Each 600-milligram dose was equivalent to three standard over-the-counter ibuprofen tablets.

The men and women had to be healthy enough to hike at a high elevation, but they weren't necessarily experienced hikers or mountain climbers. That suggests the ibuprofen regimen used in the study could be helpful for everyday tourists on ski or hiking vacations, not just elite climbers, says lead author Grant S. Lipman, M.D., a clinical assistant professor of emergency medicine at the Stanford University School of Medicine.

"We weren't just looking at people who went to Nepal," says Lipman, an avid climber himself. "This [study] was done in our own backyard, so it's very translatable.

Experts aren't certain what causes altitude sickness. One hypothesis is that lower oxygen levels at high elevations lead to leaks in the blood-brain barrier, which can cause the brain to swell. Ibuprofen, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, reduces swelling.

Long-standing advice to prevent altitude sickness includes ascending gradually; drinking lots of fluids; avoiding alcohol for the first day or two at altitude; avoiding medications that can affect breathing, such as sleeping pills and sedatives; and eating lots of carbs, which some researchers believe can improve respiratory function, Lipman says.

In rare cases, altitude sickness can cause potentially fatal brain swelling. Milder, more common symptoms usually go away in a few days - but that may be too long to wait for the trekker or skier with precious little vacation time, Lipman says.

Nice link DP4.

My work out regimen is three days of heaving lifting (starting strength program if you've heard of it) two days of HIIT and 1 day of windsprints with some mobility stuff every day.

2-3 months out I'm going to increase the frequency and duration of my HIIT and carry my loaded backpack around.

The huffing and puffing affects my shot placement greatly and I want to ward off the huffing and puffing as much as possible.

Or maybe I could get in touch with Lance Armstrong's doctors...

Snubbie and noKnees pretty much nailed it. Training with a device that restricts your breathing does you no good, and it actually keeps you from working out as hard as you can. Your body acclimates to altitude by producing more red blood cells to carry oxygen, and it takes a few weeks to fully acclimate. But you can feel a difference after a few days, I know I can feel a difference every year on about day three or four.

Think of it this way--even if a snorkel does mimic altitude, if you worked out with an oxygen-restricting device every day for an hour, your body would acclimate to the conditions you spend 95% of your time in (sea level) not 5%. The ideal for endurance athletes is to train low and sleep high, so that they can train hard with more oxygen, and partially acclimate by spending time at a higher altitude.

So the best thing you can do is get to your hunting spot as many days before the hunt as possible. I haven't seen any info. on this, but I also believe it can't hurt to eat foods rich in iron since your body needs it to build red cells. Best excuse there is for a juicy steak every evening for dinner.

Your training will certainly help, you'll recover faster and be able to hit the hills day after day without cratering.

Makes sense to me smokepole. Thanks for the help fellows.

In high school some of the wrestlers ran/jumped rope with a mouthpiece designed to make breathing harder. I'd think that'd work similar. Don't know if it would help any, but would look a lot less silly! 'Course I like to keep my neighbors on their toes, so I may try the snorkel idea for the shock-value alone.

Pointer I'm with you. I live in a snowbird sanctuary and they use volunteers at the local birding center. Last summer, when I'd walk the mile and a half trail through the park, this one old volunteer kept giving me grief.

His first statement to me ever was, "there's no camping in the park" despite my greeting and explanation that I was preparing for a back country bear hunt. This is a mile from the hospital I work and noone would accidentally camp there.

Another trip to the park and with my Expedition the only vehicle in the parking lot, same snowbird asked me where I'd walked in from, and did I know there was no camping? I said, Yes, and I've walked the entire 50 feet from my SUV, pointing at it. I was here yesterday remember?

Finally, the third and last time he hassled me was with another volunteer. I asked point blank if I was welcome there and if not, just give back my family membership pass. The other volunteer said, of course I was welcome and I wasn't hassled again.

However, this year there's a new batch of aged volunteers...

But what if you breathe through a snorkel all day long, while wearing a bicycle helmet, and water wings?

Running with the flippers would complete the ensemble.

I bought one of these to prep for Afghanistan and I feel like it works:
http://www.trainingmask.com/

And you don't look as weird as running around with a snorkel.

I can't see that thing working as well as real high altitude training but it's sure a lot cheaper than a trip to the mountains several times a week. It would be worth a try.

We want photos...

I think I see someone in town running with one of those things on... always wondered what it was.

I can say this, the 3rd time I went to CO, I did a LOT more leg lifting, and stretching those muscles while holding dumbells of weight. That did a LOT more. I had to have leg strenght and not upper body.

Of course I did a lot of walking with 80 pounds in the pack of limestone road base....

And I did bleachers every other day, even sideways to build all the knee/ankle joint stuff up strong. But did that at the local HS track/football field. I did the bleachers without weight though, and ran each end of the track and got to the point I could run the bleachers and the track.

I don't know about ibuprofen but aspirin sure seemed to help us. And an RX of Diamox just in case in the pack.

I live at high altitude. Snubbie was here hunting last fall. He can send you a pic.

I lived and worked out for many years at low altitudes like yours. Running/jogging seemed to help and walking up and down any sort of slope with a pack seemed to help. So, I'd concentrate on that for conditioning.
But, the best way to get used to altitude is to live there for as long as you can prior to hunting. Even a couple of days between 6000-8000 ft. helps alot. BTW, working out after you get there doesn't seem to do much unless you have been there for a week or so. E

Andy the thing I've noticed to make the biggest difference in endurance in the hills is tough schit on the track-like 400s and 800s. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but I saw a noticeable difference in how hard I could hike after being in shape for 400s and 800s, and I can hike pretty well (not Greenhorn or scenarshooter good, but you get my point). I'm not saying go try to set a new record 800m sprint, but it's definitely something I'd consider, in addition to timed miles and hiking with weighted packs.

You've got to take anything I say with a grain of salt, however, as I've lived here my whole life and have definitely got time and weight on my side.

I hope you have a blast and kill a nice bull!

+1 on what Tanner said. Adding some sort of high intensity effort will help condition your heart/lungs/body in ways that low-intensity endurance efforts will not. Here's one example: http://tabatatraining.org/

Good luck!

Tabata is some good stuff.... It kicked my ass on more than once occasion....

1) A no-schit barbell (one that'll spin so you can do cleans). Also required are stains on the bar from where your hands have been in the proper locations...a lot. Rubber bumpers instead of iron.

2) Squat rack so you can do pullups and barbell work, IE SQUATS

3) The Crossfit site saved on your computer.

4) The desire to make it happen

A lot of you guys suggested a lot of good stuff, but no one offered all the pieces of the puzzle. Honorable Mention goes to Tanner because he is correct about short hard runs being more effective for general fitness than "jogging", though.

No doubt, a routine including all of that will kick your ass and get you in shape.

Two things I'll say to finalize my thoughts....

1) Squats, as TAK mentioned, have proved to be the best exercise I've ever done and my legs/behind have gotten in exponentially better shape since I've done them once to twice a week. I'd start with low weight and high reps, and as you progress, get into a descending 5x work out (that's what I'm doing now, very tough.) A great test for one's progress, I think, is the body weight+100lbs rep test, but it's kind of rough.

2) Combining "days" into more strenuous entire body workouts is the way to go (this is basically Cross-Fit's idea). "Leg days", "chest days", etc, get overshadowed pretty quickly when an efficient workout done each day covers the entire body and it's key muscle groups. There's a guy that works out in the Varsity Weight room during my workouts here that's lost somewhere around 250-280lbs, that does strictly CrossFit type workouts.

I spent the night in the woods last night and just now saw this.

Here's a picture of Rock Chuck's backyard playground. Beautiful country, I envy him. My intent is to go back this October and try it again.



Actually, I only was at about 9000 ft. Most people have little problem at that elevation if they take it easy for the first day or so. I had exercised all summer in preparation and pretty much abused my knee. I took a lot of Ibuprofen while I was there. Maybe that helped?
Get your cardio-vascular in shape, get long winded, lose a few pounds. Drink lots and lots of water while you're there and take it easy the first day or so and you should be fine.

only time I hiked at any altitude was Philmont, NM.

to prepare I just kept up my cross country workouts: a few days of sprints, and a few days of longer moderate runs 5/10K

One thing I havn't seen anyone mention is pay attention to your breathing, I find after a hard workout when others were panting if I stood up, arms over my head, deep breath in, hold it, then slowly exhale I would generally feel my heart slow down and breathing would be back to normal quicker and body as a whole would feel rejuvenated quicker

I know a mountain guide that always wanted to do the hard work on expeditions at altitude to help acclimate. He believed intense physical workout helped speed the process. I am referring to really high altitude since he already lived at altitude. Myself, I think his approach works, but it is one in which you must exercise some caution, if you are not already at a high level of fitness.

Kevin

My program's design is to build strength, not necessarily endurance. I add five pounds a work out as long as I can perform the exercise with good form. (5 sets of 5)

Should I change to endurance work with the weight lifting? What kind of reps/sets?

Or would it be better to keep with the heavy lifting with low reps and just do more wind sprints, Tabata, etc.? Say sprints three times a week and tabata every other day?

When you move to higher elevation, the air contains less oxygen. Your body senses this over time and releases a chemical messenger to your bone marrow to produce more red blood cells...the region of your body that produces this messenger is the kidneys, and the messenger chemical is called erythropoietin (EPO for short hand).

There is synthetic EPO, which would help you prep for a high altitude hunt, but the stuff comes with risks (clotting) and requires a prescription. It is also a high cost med.

You can read up on this via google search...and learn all about how and why it works.

Generally speaking, I think your best best is to be in good physical shape, then go high and stay there for as much time as possible before your hunt..... the meds are just too much risk IMO.

Oh, I was just joking about seeking Lance Armstrong's doctor. I'm just going to run my ass off between now and then. I'm arriving three days early and will bum around at 9-11000 feet. I'll still probably huff and puff.

You will huff and puff. I live at 400ft or so and after the plane flight to Asia I always hurt for a couple weeks. Being strong and having good endurance help but it still blows.

I think you already answered your own question:



That's what I'd do.

Depends on your goal. Doing a bunch of cardio will slow down strength gains, but you WILL continue to get stronger, if you do the proper work and provide for recovery. Recovery is KEY, and this is where a bunch of running will screw you up. Powerlifters do brief, intense cardio, like pushing a Prowler and doing tire flips.

Crossfitters would say lift heavy, lift long for endurance, run long (occasionally) and do a BUNCH of 400's and 800's. Crossfitters will never win a powerlifting meet, doing Crossfit.

Crossfitters say that you have to do it all, because you never know what life will toss in your path. Well, a hunter does know when the season is, and he knows where he's going, and what he's going to carry, for the most part.

The primary focus of your training, for maybe six weeks or so before the season, should be walking with a pack in a manner that simulates what you plan to do. For instance, if you'll be chasing critters at high altitude and covering LOTS of miles. You'll be better served by upping the mileage on your ruck walks. If you plan on a two mile pack out, alone, of an elk. then doing shorter walks with a heavier pack 2-3 days/week, combined with a couple of squat workouts each week are in order.

IMO, Crossfit is the baseline, IE, this is what you should be doing at least half of the time. For a hunter, doing a round of heavy weight training like Greyskull or Starting Strength at the first of the year for 6-8 weeks, right up until your strength gains stall, then going back to Crossfit until you start your ruck walks in preperation for hunting season is the ideal plan, IMO.

Just curious, what would guys who hunt at high altitude every year say?

I've seen the "crossfit games" on TV. They don't appear to resemble my hunting trips. YMMV.

I have had a knee and foot pain lately and am taking a new direction on training. I am doing spin classes 3 times a week for an hour each and hiking with a 40 pound pack 5 times a week. Doing some high rep weight work and planning on hitting S9 about 4 times for long weekend scouting trips.

Thinking the actual trips to the mtn range will do me more good than anything, plus that is a lot more fun.

Actually, I think TAK's assessment is pretty on for the most part. I'll admit, I have not done CF in a couple of years, and now I'm starting to notice it. I need to get on some more of the strength stuff. I have done a lot of heavy walks /hikes lately though at 75 - 126 lbs loaded in the pack. In my opinion, I'm faster with two loads at 75 than one load at 126. With 75 , I'm ok and probably hike at an average hiking speed of 2 MPH up and 1200 feet or so of gain per hour. At 126, I crawl practically. At 100, I'm in between, but there is a noticeable drop off above 75 lbs. My ideal, is to be able to two load 175 lbs from 3 - 5 miles back. Of course, during a hunt adrenaline helps, and I just don't have adrenaline for a heavy hike.

At altitude in big country, I think CF lacks some of the endurance focus. I like to do a few 20 mile plus days in the mountains every year, and it seems to help a lot. There really is no substitute for a good 8 hrs or more moving.

+1 on the Spin classes. IMO, you can't get a better high intensity workout in 45 minutes to an hour. And all without impact.

I very much agree that the 8+ hours of moving is also a necessary component... Preferably with moderate weight and in the mountains.

I have seen the snorkel idea as there are a few MMA fighters that train that way. Sena or Cena sp had a video interview where his workout regiment included the mask and snorkel. You would look silly with just the snorkel LOL.

The principal behind the snorkel is oxygen deprivation what it does is limit the amount of O2 you get in your blood stream requiring your body to utilize a higher percentage of oxygen from the limited amount of air intake.

You are trying to boost your VO2 level Oxygen volume utilization level. (how efficient your body is using the oxygen you intake from each breath) it is a fancy way of saying fitness level. Cardio athletes use this as a measuring gauge for their performance.

In order to improve your cardio you have to do aerobic activities, cycling, swimming, running. You can lift weights but it is much harder to get the aerobic benefit as lifting is an anaerobic exercise. You would need to take shorter rest periods between sets to achieve higher aerobic capacity. You would further need to do compound lifts deadlifts, squats, clean and jerks lifting exercises that incorporate your entire body to complete the lift. If you hit a stationary bike you have the ability to adjust the resistance which will 1) improve your cardio and 2) require more leg effort thus giving your legs a harder work out and allowing you to handle carrying a pack when you walk those mountains.

The fact you are already training regardless of the what program you are following will improve your current fitness level. You are not going to go from zero to hundred in 3 weeks. Any consistent workout regime will show benefits.

Other ideas if you are going to be carrying a back of say 50 lbs, training with a back with 60-70lbs will allow you to compensate for some of the difference in elevation and you won�t be as exhausted when you get to your destination.

As you live in Texas you have the heat as an additional condition benefit. The heat taxes your body more then a air controlled fitness club and you body has to overcome the heat as well. trying doing your workout outside.

Make sure you get clearance from your physician to do all this training. good luck and have fun

This has been studied and found not to be the case, in fact, if you are training for an activity top be performed in a cooler climate, it is a training distractor/impediment.

Also, VO2 Max is a very poor predictor of work capacity, unless you plan on running on a treadmill, which is typically how it is measured. There is somewhat of a correlation, but it is weak and hardly predictive

I just don't see how limiting the O2 you get during training will help for hunting. I seem to recall that professionals were shifting to workouts at low elevations to get the most out of a workout and sleep in a chamber simulating high elevation to get the red blood cell benefits. Best of both worlds. In my opinion, you want good workouts to build better muscle and endurance. Once you get to the mtns, just adapt slowly. The stronger you are, the relatively easier the effort will be and better aerobically will make the most of what O2 you have. So, lose weight (less to haul), get stronger, and get more aerobically fit. No substitute for hauling a pack around too (stair wells work well), as there are many small muscles in the shoulders are uniquely worked by a pack, and you get stronger and more fit at the same time.

I've never seen any information that substantiates the benefits of this, have you? I think you're talking about Wanderlei Silva training with the mask, the last fight he had, this was mentioned but the announcers even said they thought it was bogus.

Perhaps short training in low oxygen stimulates erythropoiesis (red blood cell creation) which in tern allows more hgb to be available to allow for more oxygen to be attached thus making each breath more efficient.

The question is how much oxygen deprivation leads to a body system change.

My bet is that snorkels don't work and that's why Lance doped for the tour. If all it took was snorkel, I bet he'd have done it.

I don't know how much it correlates to using the mask/snorkel, but I can tell you that after performing whilst being deprived of oxygen, and then returning to a normal level, will make you feel like Super-Man. Asthma attacks opened my eyes up to that pretty quickly....

Fully agreed! Moderate work loads for a long time, IMO, more fully mirror a backpack hunt. However, that component is the most difficult to replicate...especially living in Indiana.

I also live at sea level and like to hunt high. I've gone back and forth on this and try to experiment with something new every year. Last year I basically did main site crossfit with stadium runs mixed in. I did pretty well in the mountains but I feel like I could have done a bit better (having a newborn at home didn't help since sleep was at a minimum and training time was short).

This year I pretty much stuck to powerlifting for the first few months of the year. About 4 months out from the season, i.e., now, I'm transitioning to more endurance training. I just started one of the programs from Gym Jones and like what I see so far. It essentially has 3 smoke session weight training days mixed in with 2 long cardio days and two rest days. I'll use one of the long cardio days to do stadiums for 60-90 mins. The one thing I don't like about CF for hunt prep is that it mentally prepares you that it's only going to suck for 20-30 minutes. I found myself going like a bat out of hell on the mountain for about that long and then I started looking for a break. This Gym Jones program sucks for longer, which may address that mental conditioning. I just don't know if one can train for a long day of suck in 30 minutes.

You all need to evaluate your needs as a hunter when it comes to your training. If you're carrying everything on your back, you will need to prepare for those loads. If you're headed out with a guide and a daypack, I'd focus more in on cardio & endurance. My hunt will be on horseback so the hikes will be hours, not days in duration and the load on my back will be light. I'm training accordingly.

I also found a way to get to altitude a few days earlier this year for which there is no substitute.

As for the snorkel, I don't think you'll see a real benefit. I asked a cardiologist friend about wearing a gas mask and he said that while I helps strengthen your diaphragm (as I recall), it does not simulate less oxygen- it just makes you work harder to get it.

The snorkel keeps coming up..

I work pretty hard while abalone diving (breath hold diving only), and a snorkel doesn't restrict breathing at all.

IMO, get in shape, watch your gear weight, and acclimate.

Exactly right, the other claim that the Training Mask people make is that it increases the surface area of the alveoli, allowing you to take in more oxygen with each breath. I read their web page and the paper they cited. The training mask was developed to train firemen who have to breathe through SCBA's which puts a strain on their pulmonary system.

It appears to help with that, but the limiting factor with altitude is not the surface area of your alveoli for oxygen exchange, it's the surface area of red blood cells in your system to hold the oxygen and circulate it to your muscles. The Training Mask does nothing for that.

I like to take up smoking in the off-season to put some stress on my lungs. Then quit right before hunting season starts. You'll be angry all the time, but you will breath so much better...

Heat training i would kindly disagree. Yes there has been numerous studies and the reports i have read support my assertion.
While hot, humid air holds less oxygen (similar to altitude training) the stimulus doesn't reach that same level of effect b/c you're not in the heat 24/7. Even though the heat leads to increases in the level of blood plasma,assuming you are working out at the same level poached from another board .
the study was about the two groups of cyclists in 2010 that conducted heat training.

http://shodless.com/running-in-the-heat/summer/

VO2 capacity i am not quite following your statment you don't believe VO2 is a good indicator or you can't test for it... pulled off of wiki VO2 max (also maximal oxygen consumption, maximal oxygen uptake, peak oxygen uptake or maximal aerobic capacity) is the maximum capacity of an individual's body to transport and use oxygen during incremental exercise, which reflects the physical fitness of the individual.

i am always willing to learn could you direct me to your reference which state V02 is a weak predictor.

bottom line if you body is more efficent in training aerobic excerise and you use other tips and tricks to up your efficenices (heat training) it is free and available to the OPs)) you should be able to perform better in the cooler climes and manage the altitude.

All the best Trevor