My Father-in-law gave me about 1000 primed 357 Mag cases to reload for myself and him(lucky me!). I have never loaded for handgun b4, but I load for rifle and shotgun all the time. I picked up some 158 gr Speer Uni Cores and some 125 gr Gold Dots. My question is what is the best power to use? I am more concerned with low flash and clean burning rather than blazing speeds. I have some Unique I could use but have always heard it is dirty.

I use unique all the time as well as bullseye. If ya don't want to clean the gun don't shoot it!

Cleaning isnt a problem, but I have fired some rounds that put out alot of smoke and black soot, and some dont.

I've burned a lot of Unique and it isn't bad for medium level loads. I do like #2400 better for an all around powder that leans toward solid upper level loads.

Unique is dirty but hard to beat. Have used it for many years.

Yep, but Unique is a good quality powder that is consistent and wroth the clean up. If you think it is dirty come over to the dark side and shoot Black Powder or subs!

I have never noticed that unique was dirty, I guess it could be due to the vast majority of my loads use cast bullets which certaily are dirty.

'New' Unique is supposed to burn cleaner. Haven't used any yet, still shooting up the old stuff. Don't know of any other powder that has such a wide range of uses in handguns.

O

Personally, if a load performs like I want it to, I don't care how dirty my guns get, they need cleaned anyways, right?

For a true magnum load in 357's, I like H110.

For 38 Specials, Bullseye is tough to beat.

T.,

Yeah, it's worth the trouble. Think I'll pass on the black tho.

O

Hello
The Older Version of Unique is Filthy to me, But I just Purchased a new Pound of the "Improved Cleaner Burning" Unique and am Playing with the .32 S&W Long load currently with good results and low filth from it. Unique is not designed to be a Magnum Handgun Powder so seeing Magnum Performance will be non existent with Unique, as it is more of a Light Target Powder. If you want an Excellent Magnum powder for the .357 Magnum, Buy a Pound of IMR-2400. This is the Powder Elmer Keith hot roded with in the .38 special round way before the .357 magnum came into play and later he loaded 14.5 grains of it with 158 grain bulet for the .357 Magnum. That is the load I use and it rocks in the .357 Magnum. It is very clean and very accurate. I have tried H-110 from Hogden but it pressure spikes way too fast and I feel a Lot safer using IMR-2400. I hope this helps, Thegeneral.

well general is far more knowledgeable than me on those S&W' wheelguns....but my playing around with "new unique"...it's still dirty compared to my 231,course i'm not being fair using fast burner vs med burner so i used AA#5 it's cleaner than unique.Don't let us powderheads discourage you from using unique it's a fine powder with like 126 years of service it's just dirtyburning.

Are the 357 hulls loaded with standard or magnum primers? It's an important question to answer BEFORE you start reloading.

Hello
I Often use Winchester Primers that are universal not being standard or magnum so I would say it makes little difference using them..Besides were are Talking the .357 Magnum it can Get by using either wiithout little notice... Thegeneral.

I must be a little bit of a slow learner because I've never really understood this "dirty powder" thing everyone talks about. Whats most important when you are shooting a sixgun, is it accuracy, power, etc. How do you use a truck without getting it dirty, same for a sixgun, if you use it, well, guess what its going to get dirty. If you clean if from time to time & its nice & accurate, big deal.
Just 3-4 yrs ago I put right at 84,000 rounds through 2 S&W model 610 revolvers in USPSA competition using nothing but my own cast slugs. This was over a 2 year period. Did the guns get dirty, sure they did, I wiped them down, gave them a small amount of oil in 3-4 spots & went right on shooting. Although the cylinders got a good cleaning every 1000 rounds or so the barrels were seldom if ever cleaned, if they had needed it they would have got it but I doubt if either saw a brush more than a half dozen times in all that shooting.
Just for the record I was ranked #1 nationally in "A" class revolver at the time, no brag just saying if a dirty gun might have been holding me back I would have worried about "dirty powder".

Dick

Hello Dick
Different strokes for Different Folk's here I Guess. I like the cleaner Burning Powders due to the shape and Looks of my Classic revolvers I shoot it in. I do not Own any stainless guns because I like the beauty of Old School Nickel and Bluing, and I find that getting them all messed up with Dirty Powder or Cheap splattering Lead bullets very undesirable. I have several reasons I do not like dirty Powder or Lead bullets & I Buy Copper Jacketed bullets because I can afford to shoot the very best in my nice Looking classics, and do not like scraping lead off the forcing cones nor The face of the Cylinders, and when I have tried the lead variety of bullets due to closer tolerances at the forcing cones of the classic revolvers I find at times they bind up the cylinders cycling from lead build up. If Lead is used I find it Must be kept at Powder Puff Loading Levels or the outcome is a filthy revolver loaded down with lead spatter, and I have found my shooting hand to be covered by Filthy powder when used which is not desireable to me either. I guess it all depends on what you want your guns to look like and just how much time you want to spend making them look like new again..I have far better things to do with my time then spend it scraping off lead spatter when it is not Necessary if Copper jacketed bullets are available I feel if I can afford to pay the Premium price of classic revolvers I can afford to feed them clean copper jacketed bullets, and clean Burning powders..I have sold or swapped several revolver's in the past and the Buyers or Guys I trade with all ask if it has ever been fired ? They all have the same Puzzled look when I tell them they have been shot a lot in the past, just cleaned up well and the components used where high quality. Nothing Turns me off worse than when I see a gun for sale that is covered with lead or Burned Powder. Here is one that is over 30 Years old and still Looks like the day it left S&W due to what I feed it..I have Fired Hundreds of rounds through it using IMR-2400 Powder and 158 grain Jacketed bullets and it is a breeze to clean up using this combination, and it has never bound up while shooting it with those bullets or Powder. No Offense here with the fact several Guys Like lead bullets and shoot them frequent, They Just are Not for me..Some Guy's claim their gun's are Tools to them. Well, I have tools as well, But I prefer to use Snap-On over Craftsman and I treat my Handguns the same way, as they are Jewlery not Plow Handles to me..This has proven to allow me Top Dollar on Trades so the pay off of using Clean Burning Powders and Copper Jacketed bullets is beinficial to me.. Thegeneral.

Hello General, good points & a beautiful gun. Not trying to start an argument here but it really is strange how many of us come to different conclusions about our ammo & guns.
A handgun thats been shot extensively with lead & an identical gun fired with the same about of jacketed slugs will show MUCH less wear with the lead slugs. As for powder puff loads, in USPSA competition you much shoot at least a 165 powder factor, that is, bullet weight times velocity devided by 1000, another way to figure is a 165 gr slug must be running at least 1000 fps to make PF, thats really not a powder puff load, to equal that load with a jacketed slug means you would need more powder, this creates more heat, abrasiveness, recoil & wear & tear on the gun.The forcing cone & muzzle will show much more wear using jacketed, you don't need an optivisor to see it, you can see it with your naked eye.
In the many years I competed in handgun competition I never, never once had a DIRTY forcing cone or cylinder bind up, never. In a normal saturday match we would usually shoot 150-200 rounds for the day, in the bigger matches at least twice that. After the days shooting I would wipe down the outside of my gun, maybe run a brush down each cylinder, add a little lube on the front & back of the cylinder & get ready for the next match.
A handgun firing an equal amount of jacketed slugs will show much evidence of wear when shot this number of rounds & it will show up quickly. Shooting a few hundred rounds through a handgun doesn't really tell the whole story when comparing it to cast slugs, again, some people just don't like cast & yes they create more smoke & are somewhat dirtier than jacketed. I could afford to shoot jacketed when I competed, thats a small price to pay compared to flying to many of the competitions, I just didn't feel like cast slugs were handicapping me in any way, actually I always thought it was an advantage.
Not trying to convince you are anyone else to switch, thats just my findings in my guns over the last 4 decades of shooting handguns with cast. I don't necessarily consider a handgun a tool or a piece of jewerly, it should be taken care of, kept clean & enjoyed for what it is, a finely tuned piece of steel that will last for many, many years of use if not abused.
Last, the powders I use in my competition revolvers are, Unique, W231 & WST & I've shot many 8 lb kegs of each with great results. Can Unique be FILTHY & the others clean, I know there's a difference but that might be a little overkill.
If you ever want to part with that nice S&W I believe I could tolerate it in my safe even though it might be all copper fouled from shooting jacketed slugs.

Dick

One or two hundred rounds through a revolver or semi isn't going to show up much in the way of dirt with most powders. Try running 400-500 rounds at a time through and the dirtier powders tend to lock up the extractor wheel and cylinder.
I have not tried the new Unique,but quit using the older stuff years ago. W231 is by far cleaner and Hodgon's Universal Clays is about the cleanest I found, along with exceptional accuracy.
I have run about 20,000 cast thorugh my 686 and it is still going strong. I know it is at least that many becasue I bought 20k at once and they are all gone.

For full power loads,though, I still prefer 2400

Being a certified NRA instructor I taught for about 5 years and all my guns had a lot more use than most. Although I taught the cleaning of handguns in my classes also. I did not like to stop in the middle and clean out the goop.

Hi
I have never had Copper fouling issues with any of my revolvers and the 27 shown has fired many Thousands of rounds. it's forcing cone shows no wear to me that is Often Myth and scape Goat Used for those choosing the much Cheaper lead bullets. I Locked up my K-32 Master piece after 100 rounds of Lead Bullets and it cured me of ever using them again. The face of the cylinder toom me Three times Longer to clean. I use Hornady XTP Bullets And have for years and never had any forcing cone issues or copper fouling issues. perhaps these are traits when shot in stainless guns I really don't know as I do not own any, But I can tell you the Older classic S&W wheel guns I do have never gave me a bit of trouble. Now, I will agree with you that Loading Fly Weight bullets such as the 125 Grainers in a .357 is asking for Forcing cone trouble as this Lighter bullet slams the forcing cone with such force it will eventually destroy a forcing cone, but I use the 158 grainers and have not seen any issues in well over 25 years of shooting them in my S&W revolvers..In Conclusion I am Not trying to force an argument here either, Just stating my experience and Opinion.. Thegeneral.

I'll agree again that the old Unique isn't the cleanest of pistol powders although I still have several pounds of it & use it with great satisfaction. I've done many matche where 400-500 rounds were fired, I've never experienced the malfunctions some have mentioned here, guess I just haven't shot enough. I do take precautions like cleaning under the extractor star if needed, but this isn't just a problem with Unique, any powder can do that. Most of the discussion here just comes down to cleaning a gun from time to time, not just shooting & putting it back in the safe. As mentioned above, if you want a perfectly clean gun, don't shoot it!
I see the terms, DIRTY, FILTHY, SPLATTER, & POWDER PUFF used in conjunction with cast bullets & or Unique powder & PREMIUM & HIGH QUALITY & CLASSIC used when we are talking about jacketed bullets. Hmmm!!
Here are just 3 of my competition guns, you can see they are dirty, filthy, worn out, abused & coated with crud, absolutely useless as a firearm! They have over 100,000 rounds through them collectiveley, all with cast slugs. An original model 10 with Douglas barrel, converted to a PPC gun, a highly tuned (by my son) S&W 610 & a S&W mdel 25-2 set up for competition.


A few more of my competition S&W's, abused, filthy & the cylinders won't turn. I make the handgun stocks. Funny you can even see the stocks for the crud.

I was just pulling your leg about the copper fouling, you won't see that with good bullets, but I'll still take that fine old S&W you have.

Dick

I've used cast lead/Unique loads in 38spl,44spl and 45ACP for many years w/o any load related problems. Simply because I'm cheap and can shoot a lot more for a lot less. Will continue to do so for as many more years as I am given.

Unique is dirty burning, after 100rds or so it looks like you've been shoveling coal. So when you're done you clean up. The advantage certainly out weighs the disadvantage.

O

Hello Dick
Perhaps my problem with lead Bullets is I may have had ones that were too soft and that may have been the problem, or perhaps so many years of Loading copper jacketed led me to load the lead on the hot side to cause this spatter, I really don't know, But I had my K-32 masterpiece almost Locked up from it, so that changed my mind on loading any more for it. The face of the cylinder was covered with lead and you could see where it was dragging on the forcing cone from it. I do have some Rainer Plated lead bullets coming so I will get back to shooting it with those soon. I have several Magnums and like to load them warm so lead is not an Option at these Pressure levels.One thing that has crossed my mind is, has your Competition handguns been set up to shoot by increasing the forcing cone space ? I ask this because my K-32 is very tight being only .004" when I checked it and it does not like lead at all being that it binds up easily from it as soon as some get's on the face of the cylinder, yet I can fire Hundreds of copper Jacketed bullets without a Glitch or issue out of it. Here are the big brothers to my Model 27 above. The first one is a model 57 in .41 magnum and the Lower one is my model 29 in .44 Magnum. Either of these have been fired with lead bullets but they both have fired Thousands of rounds of copper Jacketed bullets in their Life time without Incident..Below those is my Model 25-5 in .45 Colt Caliber along with my 25-2 in .45 ACP Wearing a set of Roper Custom Grips. Thegeneral.









[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/hammerdown-7/SW25-2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/hammerdown-7/SW25-2Leftside.jpg[/img]

General,

Those Ropers are hideous; I'll take them off your hands for $20.00:)

Have you seen that Keith Brown make marvelous reproductions?
http://www.classiccarvedgrips.com/photogallery4.html

Hello General, those are some great looking old S&W's, something about the deep blue on these old guns that makes everybody like them.
Most people, not all start out buying cast slugs that are too hard, the rule of thumb is, don't shoot a soft bullet fast or a hard bullet slow, you will get gas cutting/leading right from the start. Bullet fit is the #1 thing when using cast. Everyone needs to measure their cylinder throats/bore to see what they actually measure, there are many surprises! A easy thing to try is drop a cast slug down each cylinder, it needs to be snug but be able to push it through each one.
I'm sure you've used plated bullets before but one precaution is, don't get carried away with the crimp, you don't want to break the thin plating by over doing it. Also they usually can't be run up too high velocity wise, normally there is a velocity chart available from the dealer.
Running cast bullets fast is easy & you should never get leading if the bullet hardness matches the velocity. I'm running the 250 Keith slug right at 1600 fps in my 10" Ruger 44, its had lots & lots of them down the bore, I haven't cleaned the bore once! I would if it needed it. My slugs are sized .431" & your 44's probaly need to be + or - one thousandths of that to be correct. Most jacketed slugs are .429" or .4295", thats too small for good fit with cast.
Of the 50 or so head of big game I've taken with revolvers in Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Alaska & Africa, all were taken with cast. Actually I did take one of my elk & a couple of deer with jacketed but not for a long time, if I thought they were better I'd use them & do think it might be better on deer for close up tree stand type hunting.
Almost forgot & sorry this is a little long. I've made my own cast slugs since 1966, mostly using just wheelweights, the good thing about them is you can make them harder quite easy. You can water quench them, this is the most common way, or you can heat treat them & take the hardness up into the 30+ BHN range. There is nothing out there that will compare to a good cast slug for big game, especially for odd angle shots. Shoot an animal with a cast slug & you can usually eat the bullet hole, that is, it won't be all blood shot normally like a jacketed, expanding slug. That big flat nose just works, always, from any angle.
The cylinder gap at .004" is about normal for S&W guns, we don't change this on my competition guns.
This is a nice cased model 57 in 41 magnum.

Early model 29 S&W 44 magnum nickel, also has the walnut case.

Took this buck last fall at 106 yds, Ruger 357 Maximum & the Keith 173 gr cast.

Freedom Arms 475 using a 370 gr cast.

Lion taken with an 8 3/8ths nickel 357 & the 173 gr Keith cast, shot at 5'


Dick

H-110 or win 296 are excellent for full power loads in the 357 IME

Dick,

Very good post and nice photos. You're spot on about cast bullet hardness. I've been casting my own for years and I'm a big fan of the classic Keith 429421; my favorite go anywhere, do anything bullet.

I agree nothing beats a proper hard cast IMHO

Blue Dot oughtta work very well for those 125 grainers.

In fact, Blue Dot is one of the best powders out there for full house .357 loads.

I've just started messing around with 158 grain Hornady XTPs and L'il Gun. Anyone had any experience with that combination?

I still have a keg of old UNIQUE.

Try 5 or 5.5 in magnum cases for a neat midrange load.

I use it in the field behind a 173 Lyman Keith bullet at about 1000FPS.

It does well at short & long range and does not kick & bellow like stouter loads.

Bob

Hodgdon Universal is good to go. The slow powders will have more flash in my experience. Hodgdon HS-6 is in the middle of the velocity stats and is a ball powder that works good in a powder measure.

I do fine with 2 powders in the 357, Hodgdon Universal for lighter/plinking loads & Win 296(H 110) for max loads. Universal is clean.