I don't reload yet but have always heard that the 45 Colt actually had more potential with reloads due to case capacity. That being said, while at Cabelas yesterday, I was looking at some of the Buffalo Bore offerings and noticed the heaviest 44 Mag +P+ offering had a 340gr bullet going 1425 fps and the heaviest 45 Colt +P offering had a 325gr bullet going 1325 fps.

I don't think I'd ever have need for anything that "hot" and it's kinda splittin' hairs IMO but I would like to know if the 45 Colt opinion about being more versatile for reloaders was accurate or just a popular myth....

Part of the difference there is due to simple cylinder thickness. In a given cylinder diameter, a 45 Colt chamber takes away a bit more wall thickness than a .44 Mag, so the 44 cylinder will be stronger. In theory, the 44 can be loaded hotter.

The real difference is moot, I'd suspect. Big, nasty critters don't decide to die or not based on paper ballistics.

Versatility of the two is debatable, as the 44 crowd can always toss in the fact that their darling can also shoot 44 Specials to broaden the lower end of the performance band. That's a valid point, but a small one - especially now that there are shorter case versions of the 45 Colt for the same use.

They're both great cartridges. I expect they'll both be in use as long as there are handguns.

Happy New Year Rocky!! Thanks for the clarification.

I doubt I'd ever hunt anything other than whitetail so if I were picking up some hunting ammo, I'd probably go a lot lighter than either of those. Seems that 250-270gr bullets going ~ 1000 fps would probably be a better bet for all I'd ever care to point at with a handgun anyway!!

You can count on it. The 45 Colt was the original "magnum" and was the most powerful handgun round in existence for decades. That 255-gr bullet at 900 fps dropped a lot of big critters, man and beast alike. A good SWC probably makes it even better.

That's all I load my own 45s to, and even though I don't use them for big game any more, that load would work just fine if I did.

Bore size means more with those solids than speed.

The pressure between the two is not the same!

Yep, kinda moot and the deer don't care (grins).

The bottom-line here is capacity. The case capacity of the .45 Colt is significantly higher than the .44 Magnum. For that matter, the 44-40 has more case capacity than the magnum. In guns of strength sufficient to harness the maximum power of each, case capacity always wins the day.

The real world difference is that for many years Ruger built the only gun capable of harnessing the Long Colt's potential. Of course there was the Contender single-shot too, but that hardly seems sporting to pit a cut-down rifle against a revolver. At any rate, with guns like the Freedom Arms you can load the .45 up more than the Magnum. Neither the 44-40 nor the 45 Colt have cases that will withstand repeated firings of hot loads nearly as well as the Magnum.

There is a whole school of thought that if you want a Magnum, buy one, don't try to create one. I have hot-loaded the .45 Colt and .44 WCF and have come to that conclusion over the years. Still, case capacity is king.

All that said, if I had a Blackhawk, Bisley, Freedom Arms or "old" Vaquero I would shoot loads that were hotter than I shoot in my present .45 Colt, an 1875 Remington replica.

Case capacity has two advantages. Of course, the obvious, but then you have the pressure variants. Given bullets of the same mass, pushed to the same velocity, the case with the greater volume will produce less pressure/stress on the metalurgy.

So, the 340 grain .44 Mag may be exceeding the 325 grain .45 Colt round by 100 fps, but it's doing so with a significantly higher chamber pressure.

This is why the proponents of the .45 Colt feel their favorite cartridge compares favorably with the .44 Magnum. It can be pretty logically argued, that the .45 Colt is a more "efficient" round.

I own them both and I never put a 300 grain bullet through my .44 magnum. That's not to say it won't take it.

Dan

Dan's right, on average the .44 Magnum produces a good 8,000psi more pressure than the .45 Colt.


But at the end of the day, they both do the same job. The .45 Colt tears a slightly larger hole, and the .44 mag has a flatter trajectory. Still, they both pack very similar killing power and will take the same game. So between the two, for hunting, I prefer the .44 magnum because it was intended to be operated at those pressures where the .45 Colt wasn�t. Not that the .45 Colt can�t do it (in the right gun), but there�s always that fear of one of your hot loads finding its way into a Colt SAA, resulting in a kB!!

Kevin, I call that phenomenon "spontaneous omnidirectional disassembly."

But I used to work for NASA!

For Deer sized game I agree but, for larger game (such as Bison) IME the 45 is higher on the food chain. I have never seen a 44 300 grain bullet out penetrate the same weight in 45 Colt on BIG game. I have no clue why and this is flat point hard cast VS flat point hard cast. This also is the case at the Linebaugh Seminars as well.
Nor have a I ever seen the 320 grainers in 44 Mag out penetrate the 325's in 45 cal. again flat point hard cast VS flat point hard cast in either game or at the Linebaugh Seminars.

There's more to it than that. The case wall thickness can come into play as well. Nobody picked up on the 44-40 thing, but anybody who's shot the old .44 knows that the case walls are significantly thinner than the .44 Magnum's. Thus, you certainly need less pressure as y'all are describing...This may not come into play on one reload, but .44 WCF's are notorious for having brass that is not a long-term proposition. The .45 Colt's case walls are thinner than the Magnum's as well. The two .44's are just an easier illustration.

One on one, case capacity is king though.

JWP �

I can�t answer to that, the frontal diameter is smaller with the .44 and �should� out penetrate the .45 every time. If velocity is the same, bullet weight the same, and bullet design the same, then the smaller diameter bullet with the greater sectional density should always out penetrate the larger bullet. I can�t answer to yours and Linebaugh�s observations, but they defy all logic of physics that apply to every other cartridge in the world. Still, the net effect is the same. You can�t kill an animal with a .45 Colt** that you couldn�t have killed with a .44 magnum. The difference will be very minimal.

** When I talk of the .45 Colt in comparison, I�m talking about the magnum loads appropriate for out of the box .45 Colt Blackhawks, which is under 28,500psi. Linebaugh and several other makers build guns that can push the .45 Colt into the same category (50,000psi) as the .454. Those loads are in a whole different category from the .44 magnum and will always significantly out perform the .44 mag.

This varies from brand to brand. A Starline or TopBrass 45 case is thicker in the head than Win or Rem 44's, especially when sectioned and both makes don't show any appreciable degree of thickness in either cartridge with TB or SL cases.

Quite a few on the cowboy curcuit do not like the obturation qualities (or lack thereof) in some 45 Colt cases.

The 45 Colt "weak" case rep has more to due with variances in chamber size. Going from a Colt chamber to almost anything else and full length sizing is no good for case life.

The 44 Special, ironically has pretty similar internal construction to 44 Mags in Big Red and Big Green makes, despite not being "designed" that way.

I am starting to believe that their is more to this than SD. I have seen a 425 grain bullet in the 500 JRH at 1380 FPS Chronographed out penetrate a 420 grain from the 475 Linebaugh at 1383 FPS chronograpghed get not once but consistently. I have accumulated enough data to convince me that a meplat of 78% and of bullet diameter (with sharp shoulders) will out penetrate an equal and often times heavier wieght will consistently with a 72% meplat. I beleive that the shoulder stabilized by the bigger meplat causes them to track straighter and thus penetrate farther.

A factory Ruger 6 shot 45 Colt will safely shoot 30 to 35 thousand PSI and drive 325 grain bullets to 1400 FPS

Not in my experience. I watched a Bison (700 to 800 pounds) take six of the Buffalo Bore 44 Mag (305 grain at 1300+ FPS) in the Rib Cage and not one exit and the Buff had to be finished with a rifle. I have seen 6 of the 45 Colt loads (from a stock Ruger Bisley cylinder) shot completely through and exit 1,000+ pound Bison

I didn't believe that their could be the kind of difference between the 2 until I started using the 45 Colt and I'm now a firm believer that it is higher on the food chain. With out question

That does make sense, but it's nothing new. Whitworth (back in the 1840's) made bullet molds very similar to the ones made by LBT today for his rifle that he called penetrators. They were long bullets with very flat points and sharp shoulders. The dynamic here is they tend to penetrate in a straight line better than bullets with less frontal area. Still, with the same bullet shape, same weight, the smaller projectile will always out penetrate the larger one; it�s physics, there�s no getting around it.

That is not true the 450 grain punch bullet will out penetrate any hard cast bullet in the 500 cal revolvers no matter the weight. The same in 475, 45, 44, etc. There is a lot more to this than simply weight.

How do you explain the fact that I have seen and so have others including but not limited to John Linebaugh, Ros Seyfried have seen the 475 and 500 Linebaugh and JRH outpenetrate 416 Ribby and 458 Wins with round nose solids. They have more velocity and Sectional Density.

Best answer is own a 41 mag, and a 45 Colt.. Neither one lies about its waistline.. 429....

That�s my story and I am sticken to it...

jwp - did you miss the part where is said same bullet shape, same weight we have to keep this apples and apples, otherwise there's no debate here.

Edit - I re-read your post. The inclusion of the punch bullet also makes it apples and oranges, that's a change in metallurgy.

Easy choice for me. 44 mag is legal to hunt with here. 45 LC isn't.....

Wieght is wieght and niether bullet expands. You can not shot the same bullet in both a 44 and a 45 Colt they have to be different diameter and therefore are not the same bullet. Even a 320 grain 44 Hard Cast for what ever reason does not out penetrate an equall wieght equal shape in 45 cal. Why I do not know, but if you want I'll PM you John Linebaughs number and you can ask him what he's seen.

Wow! That sure doesn't make sense....

From a kinetic energy standpoint, the smaller diameter projectile, weighing the same as the larger projectile, given the same mass and velocity, should penetrate more deeply into the same medium than the larger diameter projectile. The identical mass is off set by the greater diameter. The greater diameter suggests greater friction on the medium being impacted. Greater friction would decrease penetration.

This is the theoretical answer.

Dan

LOL! That was funny Mauserkid!

Boy, I agree with you Nebraska. the colt is not legal to hunt with ??

In my hunting experience with handguns, I have found the .45 (of any ilk -- Colt, Casull, etc), kill better than he little .429. Believe it or not, the .45 is a step up that is more significant than one would think. Like jwp said, there seems to be a sweet spot in meplat size that in my experience is in the 78 to 80% range. I have tested .475 caliber bullets that weighed 500 grains (Barnes flat-point) running 2,150 fps against my .475 Linebaugh with a 420 gran hardcast at 1,350 and the handgun consistently outpenetrates it -- IN A STRAIGHT LINE. All the Barnes flat-points veered off course and left the penetration box. Heavier bullet, smaller meplat, higher velocity. There are a lot of factors that contribute to this and I haven't had enough coffee to get into it -- yet, but will return more awake and with more details.......

I love my .44s, but will take my .454 over them every time when hunting big game -- and I don't run my Casull up to Casull velocities.......

I think it's a theoretical energy minimum requirement. Those who make the rules aren't handgun hunters!

This is my 1'st post here, though i have been lurking for some time.
Elkhunter, It is actually legal to hunt with the 45lc in wyoming, as established by Kelly Brost formally of Cast Performance.
A cartridge just has to be loaded commercialy in a load that meets the energy requirments.
Hope this helps.

Whitworth,

I think you have a bit of a point there when comparing your .475 to rifles. Where penetration is concerned, there seems to be a �sweet spot� for velocity range. The English found this with dangerous game rifles a long time ago, and learned that once you exceeded 2,300 fps (or there abouts), you actually had some diminishing returns.

Whitworth,

The added velocity of 2100 fps, doesn't necessarily equate to increased penetration over a similarly sized projectile in weight and caliber, striking at 1300 fps. But then, you already know this. But for those who may not, a speeding car, crashing into a stopped car will suffer catastrophic damage as will the stopped car. A slowly moving vehicle, striking a parked car, will push the parked car out of the way, with significanly less damage to both entities. From a kinetic energy/friction standpoint, higher velocity, equals greater friction upon impact and more resistance to penetration.

Handguns should not be considered "impact" killers. Penetration should be the watchword. Reach and exceed the vitals and open up two holes if possible.

I shoot a lot of .45-70 and shot two nearly identical bucks at different ranges with the same projectile/load. In the case of the 25 yard buck, penetration was enough to reach the heart, but the 300 grain bullet did not exit because the impact velocity (nearly 2000fps) exceeded its normal design parameters. It literally came apart, turned itself inside out and used up all its energy in the target. That's not a bad thing, but I believe for hunting applications, I want to exit the animal.

On the 150 yard buck, the bullet was now travelling at a much more sedate 1500 fps (based on loading tables) and the bullet held together, destroyed the heart and exited with a wound that only marginally differed from the entrance wound. This, after breaking a rib going in and one going out! The difference was based on impact velocity and resistence to it.

Now, I know one example does not make a rule, but the "rule" already exists and the example simply illustrates it.

Regards

Dan

That makes sense on the surface, but it's not necessarily so. Jacketed bullets offer less resistance when traveling through just about any medium. The best analogy I can give is is the ballistic vest, which adheres to the metal of the bullet to stop it. Lead bullets are much easier to stop because lead has a much less smooth surface than brass, bronze or copper.

So this is why I said the Belt Mountain changes things.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. I've read the results of several of Linebaugh's clincs and, while I believe they do have a great deal of validity, I don't necessarily consider his tests to be scientific in the sense of keeping a tight control for comparison. This is really splitting hairs though, because in the real world, his tests do show what that particular bullt/load/gun combination will do.

Paper is not an accepted test medium and it's very difficult to put controls on it. How it's stacked, what the source is for the paper, what the density is, etc. Paper is also very hygroscopic, and very subject to changes in air humidity. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to see results that fly in the face of physics, because you don't have tight controls on the test medium.

Calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is the most accepted test medium because it's so easy to calibrate and assure that every bullet tested will be fired through precisely the same medium.

In 10% ordnance gelatin, I think you will see that, all else being equal, the .44 will always penetrate deeper than the .45; and I'll bet that even Linebaugh will agree with that.

I have seen paper tests where a bullet will travel almost 30" in one shot, and then the next shot, it will travel 22." That's a big difference, and you don't see that sort of thing in ordnance gelatin. (which demonstrates the consistency of the medium)

However, Linebaugh uses paper and bone because he doesn't see any relavence to the use of ordnance gelatin; and for what he does with a handgun, that makes sense. So even though his testing method is much less scientific from the standpoint of control, it works for him. The test medium he chooses, may have a wide variance (in comparison to gelatin), but his chosen medium more closely matches the game he chases; so his choice in test medium makes sense.

I think you may be thinking CUP instead of PSI. The Ruger will handle 28,500psi or 33,000CUP.

It's kind of a silly comparison though because if you choose a .45 Colt and then try to match the ballistics of the .44 magnum, you're really defeating the purpose. The .45 Colt offers greater performance (although I maintain not enough to be a deciding factor to any hunt - again, at Ruger velocities), because it throws a heavier bullet.

Dan, I two want to poke two holes through every animal, and if I don't have an exit, I am not happy -- unless of course the bullet has travel lengthwise through a large animal.

It was a .470 NE double that I tested my .475 against. You also need to realize that the velocities the NE cartriges supposedly achieved were in long test barrels and the doubles that were/are used in the field could scarcely duplicate the claimed velocities, yet they still penetrated and killed with aplomb (of course they experienced failures due to poor bullet construction/technology of the day).

Byron I would be interested in seeing the documentation regarding that. Can you post it here? I have friends that would love to be able to legally hunt big game with their 45 LC.

Below is a quote form the regulations and I see they have changed the wording. They used to list the handgun calibers that did not meet the 2 inch, .35 caliber ctiteria such as the ,454 Casull, .44 Rem Mag and .41 Rem Mag. The 45 LC was excluded due to commercial loadings. While I always thought the 45 LC to be an excellent hunting cartridge when loaded to its potential I understood why it was exclded back then. That being said you would be best to have proof of this on you in the field.... as I just called the Cheyenne Game and Fish office and the person that answered the phone said no it isn't. A case of not knowing the law perhaps? I will follow up on this with a couple of calls to a couple of different local wardens.

Wyoming statutes authorize the use of a firearm which has a barrel
bore diameter of at least twenty-three-hundredths (23/100) of an inch and
is chambered to fire a center-fire cartridge not less than two (2) inches in
overall length, including a soft or expanding point bullet seated to a normal
depth or a muzzle-loading rifle which has a barrel bore diameter of at least
40/100 of an inch and a charge of at least fifty (50) grains of black powder
or equivalent, or a muzzle-loading specialty single shot handgun which has
a barrel length of not less than ten (10) inches, a bore diameter of at least
45/100 of an inch and which propels a projectile of two hundred forty
(240) grains at not less than five hundred (500) foot pounds at one hundred
(100) yards. In addition, the Commission authorizes any other cartridge
fired from a firearm that has a barrel bore diameter of at least thirty-five
hundredths (.35) of an inch and the cartridge generally delivers at least five
hundred (500) pounds of impact at one hundred (100) yards and cartridges
used are loaded with a lead, soft or expanding bullet point.

As per my conversation with a Wyoming Game & Fish Warden this morning.....45 long colt is not legal for big or trophy game - unless you can find a factory load with published ballistics showing 500 foot-pounds at 100 yards. I know a guy can load a Super Blackhawk or other modern .45 LC to do this. But, problem is published ballistics and our statute.

Great thread. . . . .

But the 44 magnum has Elmer Keith and the 45 doesn't.

'nuff said.

BMT

Ah yes, you are right about Elmer Keith, but if there was a sufficiently strong .45 Colt being produced in his day, he'd have never looked back!

Whitworth's right; Elmer originally wanted a hot .45 Colt. If the Ruger Blackhawk existed back in the day, Elmer would have never even looked at the .44.

I used to get ribbed by a fellow hunter about using cast bullets, when the jacketed tech. was so good...

He always would say, cast does not expand.....
My answer was how much more expansion does a .452 need?

Love those big holes all the way through......


Later

Elkhunter
Things that make you say hmmmmmm. Maybe I need to follow up on this too, and find out just what the heck is going on, because I know several years ago a number of people in the shooting sports industry through contact with the wyo g&f educated them as to the fact that cartridges such as the 45lc were now being loaded to much higher levels of performance. It was at that time that the wording was changed to say there was a minimum 35 calber 500fpe at 100 yards requirement and they dropped the caliber specific wording. The documentation you seek is right there at the bottom of your post. It was (at that time anyway) supposed to make eligible rounds like the 45lc to hunt big game in wyo.
Now, having said all that, I hope the wyo g&f for whatever reason hasn't changed their position.
Please, do let me know what you find out, and like I said, I'll be following up on this too.

Elmer used the .45 Colt plenty. He blew one up with hot loads. He just didn't like the Colt for hot-rodding, back in the day.

Byron,

I'll keep you posted as I have several calls in and emails sent. Did you see I added that I talked to one warden this morning? Most of the people I talked to in Cheyenne just quoted the rule to me. I told them I knew thatand I was seeking a specific answer as in "who has shown published data".

Personally I think they are both great rounds for handgun hunting when properly loaded in a modern handgun. I have a friend who has a Freedom Arms 45 LC he would like to use. I hope we can get this sorted out.

If you come across the printed data let me know! Thanks!

I shot a mule deer in wyo a few years ago. The outfitter was pretty stringent on the regs too. He okayed the Colt as how he interpretd the law.

I even talked to a warden who checked our tags and deer. Never asked what handguns we had.

HawkI,

I don't think a warden would check the handgun unless the caliber came up in conversation. Bad thing is one warden would say yes and the next might not be up on the stats and choose to write you a citation.

What I got out of the warden I spoke with was "the 45 long colt is not legal for big or trophy game - unless you can find a factory load with published ballistics showing 500 foot-pounds at 100 yards. I know a guy can load a Super Blackhawk or other modern .45 LC to do this. But, problem is published ballistics and our statute."

Trophy game in this case would be a mt lion for which the 45 LC would be quite sufficient.

I would just like to find someone who commercially loads and publishes ballitic data to support its use.

I suspect that any of these Buffaloa Bore loads will more than meet the test for legality

Heavy .45 Colt +P
Item 3A: 325 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. (1325 fps / M.E. 1267 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs.)



Item 3B: 300 gr. Speer J.F.N. (1325 fps / M.E. 1170 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs.) Per Box of 50
$72.75
Order Now! Per Box of 20
$33.95
Order Now
Item 3C: 260 gr. J.H.P. (1450 fps / M.E. 1214 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 350 lbs.)


Item 3D: 300 gr. Speer J.F.N. (1200 fps / M.E. 959 ft. lbs.)
(Loaded to shorter length 1.585 inch specifically for Freedom
Arms Model 97 .45 Colt - Big game up to 800 lbs.)


http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45colt

Well Kevin I guess we will have to disagree because you are wrong. I have used a 45 Colt or 454 since about 1986 and a 44 since the 70's and the 44 WILL NOT OUT PENTRATE a properly loaded 45 Colt not in test media or on big game. I gave an example earlier on Bison of the 44 mag with 300 + grain bullets that did not even exit on an 850 or so po8unf Bison and the 45 Colt exited on a 1,000 pound bulls every time. I have never seen, now let me repeat NEVER SEEN the 44 mag no matter the load out penetrate the 450 Colt with 300 to 325 grain bullets. I don't know why but I do know that it will not do it.

Buffalo Bore factory loaded 325 grain hard cast bullets chronograph out of my 6" Ruger Bisley at 1400 FPS. This load is advertised at 1325 FPS and is designed to be shot in stock Ruger, Colt Anaconda and Contender handguns. Not a HIGH pressure load that can easily be duplicated with hand loads using H-110 or Win 296

Might if they "publish" 100 yd data as per the statute. Thanks for the link!

Cor-Bon has similar loads.

Not difficult to convert to hundred yard figures, any ballistics program will do so.

One thing that has not been mentioned as far as I know is accuracy. It has been my experience that with shooting stock Ruger and Smith .44 mags and .45 Colts that the .44 mag will outshoot the .45 Colt better than 9 times out of ten. Again, it has been my experience that the chambers on .45 Colts vary quite a bit, while the .44 mags have been significantly more uniform.

I do know of a number of serious .45 Colt handgunners that buy .44 magnums and then have them rechambered and rebarreled to .45 Colt to get what they desire.

I am down to just one .45 Colt. It is a short barreled Blackhawk convertible. It is one of the few that was a shooter right out of the box with both cylinders.

While I may love my .45 Blackhawk, I will stick with the .44 for hunting in the West. It is hard to find a S&W .44 magnum that will not shoot 5 shot groups into 1.5 inches at 25 yards in the hands of a skilled shooter. Conversely, most Smith .45 Colts I have shot are closer to 2.5" guns at the same distance.

When you start talking about semi customs such as Freedom Arms, that is another animal alltogether. FA's seem to shoot well no matter the caliber.

I started out at 18 years old with a 5.5" Super Blackhawk .44 and being an Idahoan, I have been influenced by Mr Keith and Mr Taffin, so I stick with the .44s. They meet my needs perfectly.

If I had started out with a .45 Colt, who knows what would have happened.

BTW, in early December I shot a wounded buffalo in the head with my 4" .44 using a 320 grain cast SWC and 22 grains of H110. Complete penetration.

Others experiences may not mirror mine, I simply speak of what has been my observations.

Mackay,

Your observations are accurate regarding accuracy. Chamber dimensions and chamber throat dimensions have been very sloppy in .45 Colt�s from most makers, resulting in less than impressive accuracy. But in the past 6-8 years, most manufacturers have been hit with the clue bat and have corrected the problem. I still tend to think the .44 magnum shoots a tad more accurately (in my observations), but it�s not enough that it would ever be a deciding factor on any hunt, and most any reasonable range.

You are missing a KEY word here. They have to be commercially loaded and published as per the statute. Your computer printout for your handload will NOT suffice. Nor will your computer printout with actual chronograph velocities for a "factory" load. I guess I figured everyone here would assume readers were smart enough to figure the ft-lbs of energy.

I'm fairly certain that Buffalo Bore (if someone perhaps notified them of such laws), could and probably would publish their ballistic information for 100 yard energy figures on their website. That'd be pretty cheap, easy to do, and all it has to be is published (websites normally satisfy that requirement).

Problem solved.

Honestly, I have never killed an animal that would not be just as dead either way.

Ultimate top end horsepower has rarely been needed in my experience.

A few years back just for fun/experimentation for big game I loaded up some 360 grain hard cast bullets with 19 grains of H110 for my 4&5/8ths Blackhawk .45.

It is a surprisingly accurate load for the short barreled gun. However, every time I pulled the trigger my trigger finger would come off the trigger and smack the front of the trigger guard. It only took a few rounds and the top of my trigger finger was a bloody mess. Needless to say, I remember to wear gloves with that load now.

In all seriousness though, I have never felt the need for anything more than a 300 to 320 grain cast bullet at around 1200fps. Anything more seems to be pointless at normal sixgun hunting ranges.

I have experimented with the .460 and .500s but I keep coming back to the 300 to 320 grain cast bullets at 1200fps in a packable, practical belt gun.

I too haven't really found a need for top-end horsepower with any of my loads. I strive for as much accuracy as possible. You push 'em hard and all they do is beat you up and they don't kill any better IMHO.

I have shot deer with the 45 Colt at 1,300, 1,000 and settled on 1,100 for the launch speed, all with 300 or 325 gr. bullets. Every one has dropped in short order, if the hit was honest..

I will go out on a limb and say the 45 moderate will do what the 44 does rip-snorting, though degrees of dead are always impossible to decipher. I err on the Colt.

If none of my little 45 colts can do the job, I grab the 454......

I still think a .257 Roberts Ackley Improved 40 degree version is significantly superior to the .257 Roberts RCBS Improved 28 degree version, especially for shots on game weighing from 121 to 314 pounds standing 247 on up to 492 yards away with deflection angles between 32 and 69 degrees of perpendicular.

C'mon folks, these details MATTER!

You are just upset about the Yellowstone caldera! I think both are excellent cartridges and both kill rather effectively. Dead is dead.

Yes, you're right, I am upset about that.

What has me really depressed is your reply about the possibility that there won't be any good bourbon left. The global destruction stuff is trivial, but now you've got me really worried...

I hunt with both the 44 mag and 45 LC and when load to the same vel and bullet weight there just isn't enough difference in killing power to argue over.

Okay, that was good right there.

Why load 'em to the same weight? That is where the bigger caliber shines -- more bullet weight......

Keith, here is the information from Buffalo Bore on their load
Item 3A: 325 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. (1325 fps / M.E. 1267 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs.) Per Box of 50
$72.75
Order Now! Per Box of 20
$33.95
Order Now
Item 3B: 300 gr. Speer J.F.N. (1325 fps / M.E. 1170 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs.) Per Box of 50
$72.75
Order Now! Per Box of 20
$33.95
Order Now
Item 3C: 260 gr. J.H.P. (1450 fps / M.E. 1214 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 350 lbs.) Per Box of 50
$72.75
Order Now! Per Box of 20
$33.95
Order Now
Item 3D: 300 gr. Speer J.F.N. (1200 fps / M.E. 959 ft. lbs.)
(Loaded to shorter length 1.585 inch specifically for Freedom
Arms Model 97 .45 Colt - Big game up to 800 lbs.) Per Box of 50
$72.75
Order Now!

Hope this helps your case.

Marlin,

I went to their website. I even emailed Tim. Sad thing is as per our statute (and yes there are wardens out here that will push it) it has to be published data for 100 yd energy. That is what I am looking for. As much as I know, you know and everyone else knows that they will meet the requirements, simple fact is it needs to be published. I have talked to 2 wardens and received the same answer. Thanks for you help...all of you.

Keith

I hunt with a revolver. I started with a Smith 44 in the late 70�s, then tried Ruger 44s. Then back to Smith 44s. Then the 45 in stock Rugers. Then I had David Clements build me two 5-shot Rugers. These superbly made guns had extra-long, 5-shot cylinders and would move a 350-grain 45-caliber slug at 1,450 fps. Recoil was obnoxious. I never hunted anything bigger than deer with those guns, and those deer were so small and close that I probably could have killed them with an old police trade-in 38 and wadcutters.

In a stock Ruger, the two cartridges are all but identical and recoil is stout at the top end. You can load a stock Ruger 45 Colt hot enough to take any game in North America. A Smith 45 won�t go that fast, but with a decent SWC it goes fast enough.

I read someplace that the original goal for the 45 Colt was to shoot the horses out from under attacking Plains Indians at 100 yards, which makes sense given our adventures on the Great Plains at the time. The result was a 250-grain bullet at about 900 fps, which is just slightly hotter than a 45 ACP.

These days I use a pair of Smith 44s and a 250-grain bullet at about 900 fps. I prefer the 44, as the 45 is still not legal for hunting some places and I don't want to risk losing a hunt to a game warden who doesn't understand the finer points of the 45 Colt. Also, I can find decent 44 hunting ammo all over if I lose mine while traveling. Most 45 Colt ammo is loaded for cowboy shooters and is not so good for hunting. It still has the horse-killing power but the bullet design usually leaves something to be desired.

There is some good reading here: http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12


Okie John

Elkhunter76
I sure didn't mean to do a hit and run on this thread, and I hope i'm not hijacking it to badly, but I was waiting for Kelly to get back from the north slope so I could make darn sure I had the straight and skinny on what I posted earlier, and as I suspected, I did.
Now I can't speak to why the wardens you spoke to interpret the statute the way they do, but It seems they are all wet.
First off, as I posted erlier, all that has to happen is that a cartridge has to be loaded commercially to the needed ballistics to be legal, whether it is the 45lc, or what ever. That and of course the 35 calber requirement. The load used, also, does not have to be a factory load. Nowhere is the 45lc excluded in the statutes.
I don't have anything in writing to give you, but I do now have confirmation as to who you might want to contact to check this all out. first being Terry Cleveland, of the Wyo g&f; second being Bob Baker of Freedom Arms; Cor-Bon, Possibly Peter Pi; Hornady.
These along, with Kelly Brost, were the principle parties involved in getting the statutes changed so cartridges other than those specificaly allowed could legally be used. At that time they were looking at the 45lc, the 475 Linebaugh, and the 500 Linebaugh.
As a side note, Terry cleveland used to be in Casper, but I'm not sure about now.
Just so you know, I'm not the kind of guy to break the law, but I'm sure enough about this that I would not hesitate to drop back down and use the 45lc instead of the 475L:)