Maybe I missed something here - why does a 45 colt compare ?

Spot

A modern 45 Colt like a Blackhawk or Freedom Arms with 300-350 gr loads will out perform a 44 Magnum by a bit.

Both can be loaded down to mild loads too.

Anything you shoot with either will be just as dead.

I carry a 44 because S&W makes the 26 ounce 329 and when you spend all day either hiking or riding (a horse) every ounce counts.

...go to a .41 Magnum in an older N frame Smith and call it good forever.

I have no 'Good' explanation for my .44 Mag. vs. .45 Colt preferences ... and would like to note that they are 2 different but great cartridges, and do not need to be 'pitted' against one another. So why not enjoy the advantages of both ???

I didn't even really know what what a .45 Colt cartridge really was ... until I bought a SA Ruger Vaquero Revolver so chambered ... and I absolutely fell in love with the old faithful .45 Colt round.

I have taken some small game and fowl, that I have actually eaten with this SA Revolver and Cartridge. I like the .45 Colt cartridge's size, its potential, its effectiveness, AND its 'comfort' ... especialy as regards recoil.

I also had a Ruger Super Blackhawk, Bisley, in .44 Mag. and a vintage Dan Wesson .44 Mag DA Revolver. Shooting my .44 Mag's, I unfortunately found that the recoil (although I didn't notice it when firing) aggravated a serious C-6 issue in my neck ... so I traded my .44 Mag. Ruger revolver for a Springfield .45 ACP 1911. (Now, the .45 ACP cartridge is also a favorite.)

I did hang on to my Dan Wesson .44 Mag though ... 'cause I love them Dan Wesson's.

Any-who, My vote is for the .45 COLT.

ALSO !!!
--------

As GF1 (posted above), mentioned and recommended the cult-like and somewhat obscure (although still popular) .41 Magnum Cartridge ...

Consider THAT!!!

He is absolutely right! It's a great Deer Hunter, a Defender, AND you can find them in many platforms ... S&W DA or Ruger SA, as well as many other MFG's.

But Warning ... that .41 Mag. IS addicting.

... Just ask RJM, et al.

Yeah, with Ruger level loads the .45 Colt can really perform... No doubt. Not the loads you'd want to shove through a beautiful old Colt sixgun though...

I like the .44 mag, and have for a good 25+ years. It really does everything I need a handgun to do. Make mine a Smith please.

Regards, Guy

The 45 colt can be made to perform at or above .44 mag power levels but you must reload or pay out your a** for the ammo to do so.

I just posted this in the ruger redhawk 45LC thread yesterday:

A "hot loaded 45 colt" like say a 335 or 350gr hardcast at 1200fps actually generates less pressure than a 310-320gr 44mag. The purpose of loading the 45 colt to its full potential is to get more bullet for less recoil and pressure than a 44mag. NOT to try to bump it up to pressure levels of a 454 Casull. A 350-360gr .452 bullet with 21 grains of H110 is less than 30000 cup according to Hodgon load data and other sources if you research it. An equivalent load in a 44mag,well, 310-320gr is over 38000. We can shoot these 45 colt loads in the same guns designed for the pressure of the 44mag. Blackhawks and Redhawks with no problems. I shoot a 360gr Cast Performance bullet with 21gr H110 in a 4" Redhawk at 1155 fps. No way to equal that in a 44mag. And, it's running less pressure than heavy 300gr+ 44 loads! This is not an over max load either. Hodgdon load data lists this as max and at 28,300 CUP! The 45 colt can launch heaver bullets at LESS pressure than a 44mag in modern guns with modern brass. That's the bottom line. Plus you've got .452 bullet instead of .429. I just sold my 44mag SBH and picked up another 45 colt SBH. Why shoot a hot 44 when I can shoot a cool (pun intended:) ) 45 colt with a bigger bullet?! This why I got rid of my 44mag and now have a couple 45 colts.

This sure seems to be getting a lot of bandwidth of late. When I was younger, I hot-loaded the .45 Colt. I have loaded loads significantly above what would be considered safe and I have fired them in guns that were not meant to have hot loads fired in them. I strongly advise against the practice. Just because one person gets away with it, doesn't mean another will. The gunwriters of my youth were universally against the practice with one exception and that was Ross Seyfried. Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton were probably the two top writers back in the day and although Elmer had done a lot of it, both advised against it. I am not totally against exceeding Colt SAA type levels, but obviously only in strong guns such as the Redhawk, Blackhawk, Anaconda, or Freedom Arms. And my idea of a hot load is a 250 grain bullet pushed at a max of 1100 fps. In my mind, a safe load for the .44 Mag. is a 240 grainer at 1400 fps. And such a load is not even considered hot. So for me, the Magnum exceeds the Colt. Even then, I doubt you would see much if any difference on game. I have never tried extremely heavy bullets of around 300 grains, in the Colt, but I am sure they would be safe at certain velocities. I AM NOT certain that some of the velocities I've heard here would be safe with those heavy projectiles. JMO and it goes against current thinking on the Colt.

So in essence, my Ruger Only loads don't compare really well to the Magnum and certainly don't exceed it. These days, I usually load 45 Colts to around factory levels for shooting in cowboy-type guns. I don't want extremely low powered gallery level loads for them, as I might want to actually kill something with mine. Less than 900 fps with a 250 grainer would be normal for me now, but I don't want to get much below 800 fps either. I don't currently own a .44 Mag., having traded my last one off a few months ago. I could get one at any time though and would kind of favor getting a Smith 629 Classic, as the one I had was the sweetest shooting .44 Mag. I've experienced. And that experience is considerable, let me assure you.

Some folks think that guns such as the New Vaquero, Smith 25 or the Judge can be hot-loaded and they are wrong. There are just many issues with utilizing extreme loads in the .45. If I hot load some up to my personal "Ruger" levels and I fire a couple of cylinder-fulls in one of these weaker guns, I am unlikely to damage it or myself before I realize what is going on. One of the extreme loads is a bomb waiting to blow in one of the less robust versions.

So if I need a 240 grain bullet to travel at around 1400 fps, I'll be picking up a Magnum .44...and not looking back.

Snyd, how do you measure pressure in your guns?

If we only had one or the other the only thing we would miss would be the discussions of which is the better round and why.

I have the same concern that if you want to go hot it's better to stay with the 44 to begin with. A heavier chunk of lead beyond 240 grains isn't that big of a desire anyway.

I just hadn't read anything on the 45 colt and a gun shop guy recommended that as an alternate path. I had looked at a really nice 6" blackhawk 44 mag aniversy model he has on hand..

Spot

In a modern platform, loaded right, I have found the .45 Colt to be a definite step up from the .429 magnum on game. I am not taling about cowboy action loads, but heavy hardcast loadings like those offered by Buffalo Bore and Grizzly Cartridges (for those who don't reload). The venerable .45 will throw a bigger and heavier chunk of lead downrange. That said, the .45 cannot compete with the vast array of factory ammo available for the .44. But, if you're a reloader......

Read and be enlightened.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

This opinion might not be popular.

Pushing the .45 Colt had some merit when it and the .44 Mag were fighting for King of the Hill. Neither cartridge can even see the top of the hill anymore. There's just to many other cartridges blocking the view. The .45 Colt should return to its rightful place as a helluva round firing a 255-grain bullet around 900-fps.

I have hotrodded both .45s and .44s. I have settled now for primarly shooting the .44.

The primary reason for this is due to variences in the .45 Colt chambers. The short version is that I have found that chances are better at getting an accurate .44 versus an accurate .45.

It has simply been substantially less work to develop accurate .44 loads in comparison to the .45 Colt.

They are both fine cartridges and I still have guns for both, but my main .45 Colt (RBH) has its ACP cylinder installed and rarely anymore do I use the other cylinder.

If you hit game with either, loaded to a comparable power level in something like a Ruger BH or SBH, nothing on this continent will ever know the difference. And, neither will you.

SS, you should get that Ruger Anniversary edition. I have owned two and they are sweet guns. I probably should never have sold mine, but one of my best friends had it and likes it, so it's all good. I think the Smith Classic was actually superior, but I really liked that particular model Ruger and would not hesitate to buy another. I liked it much better than a Super Blackhawk.

Now I am assuming you're talking about the 50th Anniversary Edition Blackhawk in .44 Magnum. I think they have since put out an Anniversary Edition Super Blackhawk, of which I have no experience.

Can't see the argument of preferring the 45 becasue it throws a heavier bigger and heavier bullet.Why not just go get a Smith 500 then,if that is the only considertaion.

There are better cartridges out there if the prime considertaion is big heavy bullets for big nasty bite back critters.

Both the 44 and 45 are fine cartrdges within a hair's width of each other.I would like to own an old Colt in 45, but would opt for the Ruger Blackhawk in the 44. I could live with either though.

In my opinion the 500 Smiths are neither fish nor fowl but something behemothesque; I would rather carry a rifle than one of those.

In Rifle mag, 2002 issue, ( I don't remember what # but I posted it in a thread under HANDGUNS) you can get B. Peerces take on the 45 C vs. the 44 mag. In short, the 45 C will equal or exceed the 44 mag in the appropriate platform at lower pressures.

That's not to say the 44 mag is a great cartridge esp for the non-handloader.

edited to say, sorry, that's HANDLOADER magazine.

Probably have not owned as many .44's in my life as you have right now, but have experience with a couple dozen at least since 1972, in DA, SA and Single shot, plus at least a dozen .45 Colts.

I've noticed the same thing, the .44's are generally pretty accurate but the .45's can be all over the place. Definitely agree that is more to do with chamber tolerances than any "inherent accuracy" of the rounds. Also, in Ruger SA'sa at least, the thinner barrel of the .45 seems to suffer more from constriction at the frame. Couldn't quantify that, but have measured all my revolvers for this in the last 10-15 years and that is my general impression.

Anyway, I'm at that same stage in handgunning that match the rifle stage where guys who used to shoot .300 Win's now just use a .308. Have loaded 7 1/2" SBH to over 1500 fps and 300 grain .45 bullets close to 1200 in a 4 5/8" barrel and the two rounds have one thing in common - the dang things kick when you load them up hot. Since the .44 does need more pressure to get a same weight bulelt to the same speed, the concussion of hot .44 loads was always nastier than any .45.

When Elmer was lobbying for a hot .44 all he wanted was his 429421 at 1200 fps, he figured that would kill any animal he was likely to point it at.

Bottom line, I'm liking my .44 Special Flat Top about as much as anything I ever owned. A 429421 or commercial 240 cast at 900-950 fps is real easy shooting. Even at 1150 fps it isn't too hard to deal with. A .45 Colt with that RCBS 270 SAA at the same speed in a Bisley 5 1/2" is real easy too.

Don't let me stop you guys from having fun with your hot loads, but I'll just keep driving in the slow lane and getting there with a bit less fuss.

308 or 06? I haven't found a 45 yet that has compatible chamber and throat measurements. I have read that it is common to have to modify the cylinders. Every 44 I have had has been good to go. Wish mfg. would settle down on specs. Is that so hard? The old Keith 44 bullet does everything....never understood the heavy bullet concept.
Bill

It depends a lot on how you look at things. In the same model gun, a 45 will be lighter because bigger holes mean less steel. That's an advantage when you're toting the thing.

But less steel also means less strength, so 45 loads MUST be loaded to lower pressures. That doesn't mean lower performance, necessarily; it is simply a consideration. But less steel does provide a bit less margin for the occasional "funny" load result. That's a disadvantage if you use powders or loads at the top end.

When I look at this current race for more powerful handgun rounds, I merely shake my head in amusement. At open-sight ranges, that old 255 at 900 45 Colt load will do all that might be asked of it. I've never heard anybody with genuine experience say it isn't enough.

The pressures I quoted are Hodgon figures. I load to Hodgon load data. Here's a copy and paste but I added the bold color to make it easier to read.
45 Colt
360 GR. CPB LFN GC H110 .452" 1.680" 18.0 1012 20,200 CUP 21.0 1151 28,300 CUP
If you look at the Hodgon data for the 44mag you will see all loads 300gr and up that are 1100-1300fps are at 37-39000 CUP. That's a substantial difference.

Also Linebaugh and the boys have pressure data. As far as my guns, I do what any other handloader does. Look for sticky cases, cratered primers etc. My 360gr load is fine in my 4" Redhawk. The min load (18gr H110) is about 950fps 6inch plus group if I remember right. As I went up to max (21gr) my group tightened up to about 3 inches at 25yds 6rnds which is the best I can shoot with my eyes and open sites. No need to go over max. I was hoping to get at least 1000fps with a 350-360gr bullet. I use Starline brass and CCI mag primers with a nice tight crimp to get good ignition with the H110. The 45 Colt shines with heavy for caliber boolits.

This is for bear protection here in Alaska where we have many Big Brown fuzzies, and if possible a shot at a moose while rifle hunting. I'm not interested in pushing a 250gr bullet to 1400+fps, I'd rather have 360gr at 1100. I don't care about trajectory at 100yds or hollowpoint/high velocity expansion. I want bone breaking penetration with heavy hard cast at any angle. 360gr at 1155fps at "OH $Hi1" handgun range will go clean through most critters. Plus, with the .452 and a large metplat it makes a bigger hole. All this at LESS pressure and recoil than a comparable 44mag load. IMHO the modern 45 Colt loads are a better choice than the 44mag in this regard. For my plnkin I shoot 255gr rnfp with 8.5 gr Unique. Or, I just worked up an accurate load using a 200gr SWC with 8 gr Unique. Plus I can shoot all my 45 Colt loads in my 454 Puma levergun.

I just picked up a SBH Bisley Hunter in a 45 Colt but have not shot these (or any) loads in it yet. Can't wait to see what the 360gr load does. I'll use it for Black bear this spring hopefully Moose next fall.

Someone here mentioned a 500 smith. I do not want the bulk of a S&W 460 or a 500 revolver or even a 454 Super Redhawk. Maybe someday a FA or BFR .475 Linebaugh The 4" Redhawk in a Simply Rugged Pancake holster is a very nice carrying rig. It's always on my hip and I can carry it all day.

I'll stick with 350-360gr .452 at 1100-1300 fps. It'll do just fine. Here are a few pics just for fun...

Here is a 300gr .429 next to a 335gr .452 CastPerfomance



350gr .452 LBT custom mould 80% metplat I am working with, I call it the Hammer, should hit like one. Next to the .452 360gr Cast Performance boolit.

I can read pressure figures from my own Hodgdon Manual. I just thought maybe you had some way you were measuring them yourself.

Brian Pearce is only going to cover the same ground Elmer covered before either he or I were born. There have been new developments in the .45 Colt, but unless he is using new powders, you're only shooting different bullets with the same stuff I was using twenty years ago.

On the Special, once Elmer had the Magnum he quit the older cartridge and never looked back. The Special is good for paper and jackrabbits. No need to push it when you have a longer and better cartridge. The same can be said of the .454 Casull and .45 Colt. I don't have need of a Casull though. The .44 Mag. suits my purposes.

Ya, I know what you mean about the Casull. I just can't see running that high of pressure in a handgun. If I had one I'd get as big a boolit as I could fit in the cylinder, say a 400gr and load it down to about 1100-1200 I think. I have some max 335gr 454 loads I shoot in the 454 levergun and man, you know it when you touch those things off! 1950fps out the the 20inch barreled puma. I use that one to stand guard over the wifey in the blueberry patch

It's nice to have choices that's for sure. And it all depends on what a guy is doing. I see you are in Kansas, and I'm up here in Alaska. You're needs/desires are bound to be totally different than mine. And then of course there are guys who want to shoot one hole groups at 100yds with thier 44's. I have a hard enough time doing that with my rifles!

I haven't gotten so deep into this as to where I have my own pressure testing equipment. It would be kind of fun though.

I have the 454 too, and let me tell you this... I shoot my 45colts often. I shoot the 454 to keep in tune.. Just enough to not start getting flinchy... And back to the colts...
Would like to stumble on a Puma in 454, one day...

In guns of similar strength, they have similar performance levels. 300-330 gr @ 1200-1300 fps. Some prefer a .451" projectile, some prefer a .429" projectile.

Now, if you really want to jump up in performance, that same 21-22gr charge of H-110 in your 44 mag or 45 colt, will drive a 400 gr bullet 1200 fps in a .480.

Push a good cast bullet around 900 to 1000 fps and either the 44 mag or 45 LC will cover most anything you want to hunt .

The 45 Colt is higher on the food chain thain is the .429 mag IME

Argue what you want Snyd. Loading the .45 Colt at 28,000 cup is well over the level that responsible folks like Speer and Sierra recommend in only the strongest revolvers. Which is between 20,000 and 25,000 cup. And far beyond the 14,000 cup for many .45 Colt revolvers.
The .44 Mag's level was originally 40,000 cup and is now 36,000 cup. Not much of a difference and very close to what all .44 Mags are designed to handle.
The other argument about a wider bullet is off set by the increased sectional density of the smaller diameter bullets. Frankly, I know of no one who has proven or even demonstrated that the 300 gr. bullets in either offers anything practical to the handguner.
Last of all, your so called pressure signs simply won't show up in a handgun as you think they will much of the time. That's why the old timers don't recomend anything but those loads using exactly the same components as tested and pressure tested in proper pressure barrels. E

The SD arguement is lame and the Ruger 45 Colts can and do fire 30,000 Cup loads afely. This has been very throughly covered in print many times.
As a matter of fact Buffalo Bore factory loads bear this out with 325 grain LFN hard cast at 1350 FPS in 45 Colt

I have had all three of my .45 Colt handguns looked over by my gunsmith. The S&W Model 25 is fine with regards to the cylinder dimensions, but both of my Ruger Black Hawks had to be 'adjusted'. Pretty inexpensive, so it makes the argument about poor accuracy due to incorrect dimensions academic.

I hand load all my rounds for my .45 Colt revolvers, and for my .44 Mag revolvers.
I have never found that max loads delivered any benefit over 'stout' loads.

Absolutely! Very old news. The loads in manuals like Speer (some editions anyway) depend on who wrote up the cartridge. Guys like Venturino are traditional and adhere to traditional Colt loads of a 255-gr at 900 fps which is fine but it's not the whole story; An "older" Speer manual-not that old-still touts the old line that Colt brass in inherently weak. IOW, the manuals are not always that complete in their info or even always correct.

Feel the same way as you and JOG, and Cole, too. My arthritis doctor told me to lay off the boomers for a couple years until my wrists healed up. Never felt the need to play with the bigger stuff any longer.
I used to shoot a LOT, playing IPSC stuff and just playing around, period, and beat the hell out of my wrists and hands. Nowadays, I limit out at about 10.0 Unique/255 Keith (955 out of a 4 5/8" Blackhawk) out of the .45 Colt or something similar out of a .44 Special/Magnum, and it still kills stuff real well. No big bears here, of course.

My RRH Colt also went to the 'smith for tuning (incl throat) and is more accurate than I'm capable of.

Oh,, you guys are to much... Well If you ask me, and no body did,,, the 41 mag is better than the 44, or wait, 429, any day of the week...

The 45 colt is really more than both, it can be pushed to max (published loads) or a simple little plinker for the traditionalist...

No matter what, it is a great old/modern cartridge.

The 45 Colt brass is weak if one is useing the old balck powder balloon head cases, since the balloon head casses have not been produced for several decades it is no longer a true statement

That's is my point exactly.

Really not arguing. It's not matter of right or wrong. All I have said is known fact and physics regarding the 45 Colt. A bigger case, larger caliber in modern brass and modern guns changes the 45 Colt. You can push a larger bullet at lower pressure. Just like the guy mentioned about the 480 or the ".475 Linebaugh Special". As far as safety goes....that's why there are published "Ruger Only" loads. And that does NOT include new model vaquero's.

Sure like the looks of "Mr. Hammer"!!

My God this is as silly as the 308 vs 30-06 debates. Anyone or anything hit in a vital area by a max load 44 mag or max loaded 45 colt will never know the difference as they will be DEAD.
All the rest is like picking flysh-t out of the pepper.

Well, the original poster wanted to know how/why does a 45 Colt compare to a 44 mag. Now he's got the answer. It does compare rather nicely when loaded with modern brass and used in the proper firearms. Pretty simple really. And yes, if a critter is hit in the vitals with either it will die. If the shooter has the luxury of shot placement that is. If not, as in a bear defense situation or if the moose or elk turns at the last second so the bullet has to travel through lots of flesh and bone, then the 350-360 gr bullet just might give that extra edge of needed penetration. Which then of course brings us to the issue of how big of a handgun/caliber is one willing to carry that he can shoot proficiently. A 460, a 475, a 500?? A lower pressure/lower recoiling 45 Colt may also just give the shooter a better chance at the second follow up shot if he's not lunch meat after getting first one off. Hopefully I'll never find out! I"ve come close but not THAT close thankfully.

Not even going to bring up using (trimmed 454 brass).....

I don't pay much attention to a lot of the miniscule stuff. I just pick the right bullet and velocity for the job and go hunting/shooting.

I'd guess all here know that but it's discussing things you like and know which is why it comes down to minutiae....like what, 80% of all the other this-cartridge-vs.-that cartridge discussions on this site.

Both are great cartridges. I think the main point is the 44 mag hit the public in full stride, while the 45 Colt had slowly been jogging along in its weaker guns. Now that there are strong revolvers it to can become a sprinter.

Y'all have wild hogs in Idaho? I didn't know.

Personally, I wasn't arguing on the basis of brass. I've posted so much on this subject of late, that I don't know where I've said what. Somewhere I said balloon head cases are so scarce and collectible that you would have a hard time finding one, let alone reloading it with a hot load.

If you're going on the basis of how much the case will hold alone, the 44-40 holds more than the .44 Magnum and so should be able to exceed its velocities...

Mack, I'm starting to think you don't like jackrabbits...

We did, but I killed him and ate him.

Cole,
They are not wild. There is a rancher that imported them.

I don't think he knew he was shot with an inferior .44 mag load of 10 grains Unique and a 240 grain cast SWC.

In my 5.5" Redhawk I get 1200 fps or so with the 300 XTP with H110 in my 44 mag.

In my 45 colt Ruger Bisley Black hawk 5.5" barrel I get the same exact thing with 300 XTP and H110.
I rarely load them to this though.

Nothing really that much different. One has higher sectional density the other slightly higher cross sectional area.

Flip a coin.

Not much to add except the guys I know who only shoot max loads don't shoot much. I've found that the .41, .44, and .45 loaded with a hard cast bullet at 950 fps will drop a deer (or jackrabbit) if I hit it in the right place.

So does the 45 ACP. They really make a mush of the lungs

I agree but bullet selection is really important with that round (not that it isn't with others). The first deer I killed with a 45 ACP was with 185 gr. Silvertips - that was a mistake. Penetration was horrible. The next deer was with a 225 gr hard cast at about 950 fps - it worked much better.

Hard cast are hard to beat in any handgun IMHO, even for personal defence

You like those so called "safe" Buffalo Bore loads, you shoot'em. I've seen several of them lock up Marlin lever guns that they are suppose to be designed for. No thanks. E

I do shoot them and have shot equivelent reloads for many years before Buffalo Bore came on the scene.

This quote is dead nuts.

45 Long colt can not be loaded to max pressures in Smith's or older guns.

By only a nit pick bit though when looking at the blackhawk. I've loaded 320 gr @ 1300 fps out of a 4 5/8" 44 mag blackhawk.

If you're talking 5 shooter 45 loads, then you might as well look at 5 shooter 44 loads.

Were talking six shooters

And most guns with chambers oversize usually do lock up or show "pressure" signs. Even worse when coupled with FL re-sizing cases fired in such a chamber.

Hence, despite "weak" brass falsehoods, in a 5 shot, a 45 Colt case was a 454 Casull before headstamps and 1/10th of an inch made a 454 Casull. Go figure.

Comparing the 45 Colt to the 44 Mag: When in the realm of heavy solids, the 45 wins because of bore size, just like the 410 over 357, the 429 over the 410.

If you are looking for easy, by and large, a 240 JHP at 1,300 the 44 is the answer. However, anyone truly serious will contemplate cylinder size and modifications of such regardless of cartridge and match or make their bullets match these throats and grooves.

I can show you a 44 with .427 throats (629 DX) and one with .434 throats (29-2). I can also show you one with .430 throats. Yada, Yada, in 45; throats .449-.456, to .453.

I like the Speer connotation, even though they tout the 45 Colt as having weaker brass, not on par with the 44, their 300 gr. 45 Colt load is loaded to 25,000 CUP and the 44 300 gr. to 40,000 CUP, for the same speeds.....and some of you may cry foul when I say psi is NOT always higher than CUP figures when dealing with straight-wall cartridges, and often times are the nearly identical. But there it is, if you care to look.

Ask Brian Pearce, Ross Seyfried or John Linebaugh. I'm merely re-hashing what they already knew/did a long time ago.


I can assure you, these won't chamber in a SAA and function


If you are a klutz, lose your keys a lot or like to pass responsibility off, loading a 45 Colt in guns that Hodgdon recommends for heavy loads or some that Brian Pearce or others use with regularity to dupe the 44's speeds with less pressure and a larger bore size my not be for you. Same for knowing your gun's throat and bore and making things work. Don't even try....

If its too hard to figure out or just scares you, get a 44 Magnum or claim the Colt should remain an antique with 255 at 850 fps. They both work too.

Really ? The .44 Mag., Speer 300 gr. bullet has an SD of .233 while the .45 Colt's 300 gr. bullet has an SD of .211. Hardly a fair comparison. Try the 260 gr. .45 colt speer bullet at .183 vs. the .44 Mag., 240 gr. bullet at .186. Velocities are considerbly different for both.
The velocites produced by the above are 1451 fps. for the .44 Mag slug and 1183 fps. for the .45 Colt according to my #12 Speer manuel.
A few other points. I don't see where Hogden actually recommends those loads, they just list them. What's more important, neither does Ruger, who makes the gun.
This whole argument sounds good, but it means nothing. All .44 Mags are made for much higher pressure loads than those made for the .45 Colt. But, the big difference is that you can't tell just where your gun is pressure wise. You, yourself have pointed out some significant variations which will affect pressures. The other thing is revolvers don't give you any of the so called pressure signs that are dependable. Primer indications is all you get, and those are unreliable. E

Go to a few Linebaugh Seminars or shoot a few large animals and you will find the 44 will not pentrate as well as the 45. The 45 Colt loaded with 325 grain LFN consistently out penetrate the best loads in the 44

Also the 450 grain punch bullet in the 500 Linebaugh out pentrated all of the bullets in the photo no matter how much higher the sectional density of the other bullets




The SDarguement is lame at best

The comparison was that a strong 45 Colt can meet or exceed the 44 with a larger diameter bullet at less pressure, so we used a 300 gr. bullet. If a 360 suits you we can do that too.

If you actually read your Speer manual, the Colt TC/Ruger loads for all bullets BESIDES the 300 gr. load are rated 20,000-25,000 psi. The 300 grain load is for 25,000 CUP, and in this case is a higher pressure. If you doubt the CUP v. psi correlation for straightwalls at these levels, look at the speeds generated and powder charges for the 260 v. the 300 gr. load.

Your 240 44 loads, and all others are loaded to 36,000 psi, EXCEPT the 300 gr. load which is at a higher level (40,000 CUP). I can't help it if the 45 did pretty much the same at 25,000 CUP.

The 357 Mag data in the same manual goes from 36,000 psi for standard guns/bullets and 45,000 CUP for heavy bullet silhouette loads. Note the 158 gr bullets powder charges v. the 180 silhouettes.

FWIW, all loads are recommendations, even loads listed for 44's. The guns specified for their use are not. I guess that scares some. Fine, I'm not forcing them to do so. Heaven forbid, don't reload anything, buy "totally safe" ammo and live in bliss.

I also won't force them to use +P 38's, 45's, shotguns or any other loadings that may require common sense or knowledge of the firearm in question. To think there are ammo companies who make +P 38's for all these years.....or the 38/44 loads of old. Sounds like grounds for lawsuits, voiding warranties and published misuse? Unless....

Still doesn't account for the fact that the .429 mag just doesn't have the diameter of the .45.

and with the 45 Colt you can do that with a 350-360gr boolit with less pressure and less recoil. Easier on the gun and shooter as well.

Exactly!

If you were wondering WHY the .45 Colt compares to the 44 Magnum, its because the .45 Colt was in reality the first magnum handgun cartridge.
The very first magnum handgun was the Colt Walker-a true horse pistol, due to its size and heft, but the Walker was a cap and powder gun.
When the .45 Colt first came out it was a 250 RNFP in a copper case over 40 grains of compressed black powder. Both Millionaires, Mr. Pearce & Mr. Taffin wrote about shooting such original loads, and they clocked out of the Cavalry Colt at close to or at 1,000 fps. This load was released in 1873. This was in the age where handgun ballistics were solidly in the 700-800fps range.
Of course, the magnum status for the Colt did not last for long. Military loads were quickly eased to an unassuming 30 grains, while pretty good evidence exists that civilian loads were hotter, at 35 grains.
I am not aware of any records that accurately depict specific handloading practices, yet it is clear that if the handloader was capable of compacting his powder charge, he was capable of reaching original ballistics.
Today, the .45 Colt cartridge has changed quite a bit from its rip snorting youth. Today's brass is solid head, and thus offers less capacity than original cases. The cartridge rim has gotten both larger and thicker as well. Smokeless loads cannot duplicate the ability of black to obdurate the projectile to form a full gas seal in the bore.
In another fashion, the .45 compares in that it was a truly original creation. Remember, the 44 Magnum was nothing more than the special lengthened a tenth of an inch or so. The .45 Colt was created from scratch, because the military wanted a .45 Caliber cartridge capable of slaying man and beast. Yes, beast as well, because it was a tactic to shoot your attackers mode of travel out from under him.
Col. Armstrong Custer used the original Cavalry Colt with the original magnum load to hunt Buffalo-and he did so successfully.
The .44 magnum was created by the force of personality of Mr. Elmer Keith, not as a military load, but as a sporting round. Elmer was blessed to live in a time where people were remarkably civil to each other in our society, he wasn't looking for a dual purpose cartridge, just one that would drop any game he could put a bead on.
Today, the 44 Magnum remains the king in the sense that it is the practical limit for most to be able to master. Those who dedicate themselves, and who are born with wrists like twisted oak can deal with more, but the truth is that the 44 has already accounted for everything from Cape Buffalo to Polar Bears. Its hard to imagine another cartridge in the same class.
When black powder gave way to smokeless, the civillian loads in the .45 Colt disappeared, and loading became generic at or about 800-900 fps for a 250-255 RNFP. Some suggest that military .45 Colt smokeless loads clocked at the sedate velocities of around 750 fps.
Plenty of stories from the frontier exist telling of men armed with the Colt stopping all manner of adversaries-two legged and four.
It is important to note that the reputation for the 45 Colt was established AFTER the cartridge was reduced in powder charge some 5-10 grains. Something about a big heavy bullet at modest velocity simply = effectiveness.
I may have left a few things out. The history of both is much more convoluted and deep than can be easily typed in here by me, but it is my hope that this will at least provide an inkling of insight into both great cartridges, and how they compare.

DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I picked the 44 !

Your loss...

Help me out here, a 41 mag is a little less powerful than a .44, right? So why wouldn't you buy a .44 and load it down just a tad? What are the positives of the .41 over the .44?

Thanks.

What are the colored cannelures on the hard cast bullets for?

thanks.

You might be mistaking the lube ring on the bullet for the cannelure.

The .41 vs. .44 Mag debate continues on - kinda like the .270 vs. .30-06. I prefer the .44 Mag solely on the basis of the bigger hole it makes, and you could knock me off that preference with a feather.

A lube ring. Do handloaders put lube rings on their loads, what is the process? Does loading information include this or is it driver optional?

The lube ring is part of the finished bullet when cast. The loader can choose how many to fill with lube if there are multiple; this depends solely on lube quality.

A jacket was basically known as form of lube to prevent leading back in the day. Other designs used lube grooves to hold a type of lubricant to cut down pressure and friction, the causes of leading.

Swaged lead bullets have a film lube applied. They do sell cannelure tools that can be used to cut cannelures and lube grooves, but its pretty specialized and limited use for most.

Your right, why have a 44 when you can download the Colt? (grins).

I'm of the belief that JOG's feather comment sums up this thread, assuming that we all could recognize the 45 Colt to be more than a cap gun, which seems to be the argument.

The 429vs 41mag....VS 452.colt.... The saga continues....

Bigger holes please....

The 44mag reminds me of ice cream. It really is not a full quart either.....

[quote=HawkI]The lube ring is part of the finished bullet when cast. The loader can choose how many to fill with lube if there are multiple; this depends solely on lube quality.

A jacket was basically known as form of lube to prevent leading back in the day. Other designs used lube grooves to hold a type of lubricant to cut down pressure and friction, the causes of leading.

Swaged lead bullets have a film lube applied. They do sell cannelure tools that can be used to cut cannelures and lube grooves, but its pretty specialized and limited use for most.

Your right, why have a 44 when you can download the Colt? (grins).

I'm of the belief that JOG's feather comment sums up this thread, assuming that we all could recognize the 45 Colt to be more than a cap gun, which seems to be the argument. [/quote

Thanks for explaining..what is the lube made of?

The standard is 50/50 alox and beeswax. I don't know what alox is - some kind of slippery goo.

Casting loonies often have their own recipes, and you can buy lubes that contain moly and high temperature waxes.

The hi-tech way of applying lube is with a special press, a 'lubri-sizer', that sizes the cast bullet, applies the lube, and can even install a gas check (copper cup) on the base of the bullet. The low-tech method can be melting the lube in a pie tin and dipping the bullet, or even spraying the bullet with liquid alox and letting it dry overnight.

Check out the casting page at Lyman for more info.

There is something to be said about the older calibers. for instance, the 45-70 during the john linebaugh wet newspaper test out penetrated the 500 nitro express. the 45 colt in the right wheel gun with 296 powder will impress you for sure. I have ran literally thousands of rounds through a 44 mag and i will say i love it. I actually shot a super blackhawk all to pieces. I tried doing that to a 629 classic and it was worse. You can actually shoot a ruger hotter than a smith. Guess it doesnt matter but a smith will stick the same load that will fall out of a ruger cylinder after firing. recoil scares folks away from a 44 so most like the 41 that with the right load will duplicate, and some say out do, the 44. i bought one of the 500 s&w in 8 3/8 bbl and my 44 kicks as bad as it does. one could ramble on all day if you shoot as much as i do but most 45 colt guns are single action and that type of action is more recoil friendly that double actions are.

FWIW, from John Taffin's book, BIG-BORE HANDGUNS:

(paraphrased by me on the penetration tests he wrote about. Wet newspaper was used as the medium.)

Garret's Hammerhead 45-70 530-gr @ 1550 fps............55"
495-gr hard cast .500 Linebaugh (5 1/2" barrel @ 1270 fps....................................................52"
.500 NE with a FMJ, 570-gr.............................48"
458 win, 500-gr solid @ 2260 fps.......................47"
.45 Colt, 350-gr hard cast @ 1400 fps...............43"
(for use only in a FA revolver)
44 magnum, 250-gr Keith @ 1200 fps.....................27"
480 Ruger factory 325-gr XTP @ 1350 fps................17"

Just big-bore six-guns:
45 Colt 310-gr Keith @ 1250 fps........................36"
" 300-gr LBT, 1180 fps...........................38"
454 Casull, 360 Cor-Bon's @ 1500 fps...................45"
475 Linebaugh, 420-gr LBT, 1335 fps....................47"
" , same bullet, 1050 fps...................40"