Hi all,

I was just looking at short barrelRifle accuracy discussions, and I thought, "Hey, I wonder what kind of off the bench accuracy people are getting with their hand guns chambered in rifle cartridges..?"
For example, Encore 14" Bbl. chambered in 308 Win=.75@100yd

Scott

In the early 80's I had a 10" T/C Contender in .22 Hornet with a Leupold 4X handgun scope. Used to get sub-MOA accuracy with that. Had a Hornet Contender carbine and two different Hornets from Kimber of Oregon including a heavy barrel varmint model and couldn't say any of them shot better than that 10" Contender.

Never owned any other rifle cartridge in a handgun.

I'd expect with handloads, most of the single shot and specialty handguns will be capable of 3 shot moa groups. 3/4" isn't out of the ordinary, and 1/2" is often achievable, but I wouldn't expect 1/2" groups.

The more powerful chamberings can pound you, so it's a combination of the mechanical accuracy of the gun and your ability to realize the potential.

I have a Wichita International single shot pistol in .30-30 that I used for handgun silhouette in the �80s. I loaded it with mild loads using 168 gr. Sierra match bullets. Even with iron sights it was super accurate. I never did get around to quantifying it�s accuracy though.

I can usually hit a tree trunk from about fifteen yards with my Schofield. Is that okay?

That would probably be Okay, Cole...Lol.

I raise this question, and post, because of some discussion I was watching wherein a fella kept asking about the accuracy of short barrels, and kept inclining in a way that seemed to me he was under the impression that shortening a barrel would decrease accuracy.

It's my understanding that when we shorten a barrel on an already accurate shooter, accuracy doesn't decrease, and in the same light, if we shorten a barrel on an "Okay Shooter" accuracy often improves because the short barrel is more ridged, and therefore has a smaller amount of osciliation.

So, Here I am asking the guys that are shooting very short barrels in rifle cartridge chamberings about their findings.

Of course it's not quite apples to apples in camparison. For that, we would have to take a long barrel, like 22-26 inches...and start to reduce it inch by painful inch.

Thanks fellas,

Scott

"For that, we would have to take a long barrel, like 22-26 inches...and start to reduce it inch by painful inch."
That has been done more than once and for various reasons. I can recall two; one was to test velocity drop the other was to test different crown defects on accuracy. I don't recall who did it or the caliber. Both were written up in one of the gun magazines.

I'll ditto that!

Fired a fellow's .444 Marlin in a T/C Contender several times from the Creedmoor position (one handed, lying back, knee up, barrel braced against leg). It wasn't "bad" per se as your arm didn't fight the recoil. But I always wanted a high speed film of that to watch the bones of the forearm flexing as the shock wave advanced up it.

The two contender barrels I rung out the most were a 14" t/c barrel that had originally been a 6.5tcu but was re-chambered as a 6.5 GR (30/30 necked down with shart shoulder) and a 10" 218 mashburn.

My best group with the 6.5 gr was a 3 shot 1/2" cloverleaf. I have a feeling the gun would shoot that well repeatedly, I was never that consistant.

The 218 mashburn required a fair bit of load work to find a decent load, a bit of a disapointment for a custom barrel. But after going through nearly 1/2 dozen bullets and 1/2 dozen powders, I found a combination of a 45 sierra sp, powder escapes me, that would print 3 into 3/4" at 100 yds. On paper that load wasn't earth shattering, but on the 150 yd turkey silouette, it would hit the head of the turkey with boring regularity, like 20 for 20 shots.

Best "group" I ever fired in a contender was 2 shots at 80 yds (deep snow so we set the target at 80) and both shots were in essendially the same hole, I'd say the group was at most 0.050" ctc. Cartridge was a 300 whisper.

I even managed a 3 shot 1 1/2" group at 100 yds from my 480 revolver. Given the group was a horrizontal line with less than 1/2" verticle dispersion, I bet that gun and load would print 1" for 3 shots at 100, I just couldn't shoot the gun to its potential.

I've done a fair bit of rifle and pistol shooting over the years, and experimented with many different gun platforms. Even shooting from a bench, a handgun is mesureably more difficult to shoot to it's accuracy potential than a rifle is. So I have a feeling that for most people they seldom see what the accuracy potential of handgun or handrifle is, as they can't shoot well enough to realize it. I also know some handgun shooters that can shoot handguns to their accuracy potential, and most people won't believe how well a good handgun can shoot.

If anything, a hand rifle should be mechanically more accurate than a rifle because the bullet is in the barrel for a shorter period of time and hence the gun has less time to move inconsistantly from shot to shot and hence open up groups.

I have a Savage Striker in 7mm-08. It may be one of the most accurate firearms I own. I can shoot it under an inch at 100 consistently off a bipod using a 139 grain Hornady SST. I have shot 3 shot groups in the 1/2" range. I only have a couple of rifles that will do that. I think, in my case, the Savage barrel attachement combined with the short, therefore stiff, barrel lends itself to good accuracy.

It does kick a lot and is difficult to handle in hunting situations unless you have a good rest. Because Wisconsin allows handguns in shotgun counties, I use it on my farm for the longer shots across the fields that would be impossible with a shotgun. Otherwise, it's too cumbersome to take the place of a rifle or a handgun.

Fast Ed

There's some very interesting info at the link. A brand new Sako S 491 with a 22" barrel was cut down an inch at a time. 14, 5 shot groups were fired at each barrel length using different loads at 100-yards.

The bottom line, the 22-inch barrel averaged 0.623". The 10" barrel averaged 0.648".

Draw your own conclusions, but to me that means the barrel length has very little to do with accuracy.

Accurate Reloading

Barrel length doesn't determine mechanical accuracy. My Scoped Lone Eagle SS pistol in .308 did sub 1/2" 100yd groups from a bench with several loads and with relative ease. I could easily hit a pie plate out to 300yds and more.

Accuracy in the field is another thing. I hunted with it for a few years and found that it was always difficult to find a bench rest within vicinity of the game I was after. It's considerably harder to hold a scoped handgun steady that a rifle. The only elk I ever took with it was at about 80 yards. Longer ranges made me take too long to get the gun settled, and the animal would be gone.

Given the right conditions, long shot would be do-able - but I decided that if I'm likely to have to get within 100yds for a shot, I'd rather use a revolver with open sights or a very low-power scope. That's not to discourage you from trying a rifle-caliber handgun....They are fun to play with and you my like hunting with one.

FreeMe,

I often use a hiking staff for a handgun rest. I can't say how it'll work for you 300-yard pistoleros, but it works well for my 100-125 yard .44 Mag stuff. The 'ball' on top unscrews and you add the 'V' rest.

One of the nice things about handgun hunting is free hands, so the staff is no big thing to carry and often helps in crappy terrain. The thread on top of the staff is the same as most of the cameras, binos, and spotting scopes I've used also. I don't use the Cabela's one shown below - I bought mine local years ago and don't remember the brand.



Hiking Staff

In the '80s I ran a 14" Contender in 223. It had an uncanny ability to put 50gr Hornadys into a groundhog's ear out to 300. Use to surprise me how accurate it was.

Pete

I think you'd get an argument out of the bechnrest crowd regarding that statement. It's not by accident that virtually all the barrels in the Light Gun and Heavy Gun winner's circle are precisely 21.75" in length. I don't pretend to understand it, but I do read Precision Shooting frequently.

I watched a Bolt action Savage Handgun (Full custom) shoot .5 MOA at 200 yards last year at the local range.

6MM PPC was the chambering. Perfectionist handloads and a very steady hand. Top notch optics too. Rested the front on a bipod and hand a sandbag under the two handled pistol grip hold.

Was amazing to watch. The dude is reported to be able to nail ground squirrels at 200 yards with this rig.

Truly, amazing . . . . .

BMT

Yep, that 6PPC gave birth to the whole short, fat magnum craze, a solution in search of a problem. The 6PPC is one of those cartridges that is inherently accurate. If you shoot it out of the proper platform it will turn in sub 0.25 MOA groups all day every day. The short, fat column of powder is said to burn more efficiently that a longer, thinner powder column.

Benchrest rifle barrels are limited by maximum dimensions or total weight by NBRSA rules. Years of experience and milking the most from barrel performance has lead to the barrel lengths you mentioned. Benchrest shooters will tell you that it's easier to make a shorter barrel accurate, but you give up velocity and increase time of flight. TOF subjects the group size to variations in the elements from shot to shot.

I have an Encore in 260, it has shot several groups in the 3/4" range, but most of the time I punch a 1.5-2.0" group with it. I just cant shoot the thing as well as a rifle. I have shot deer with it and it is probably as accurate as I need it to be, so I dont worry about it too much.

I think we are saying the same thing, just using different terminology. I did not explain my claim about the 21.75� barrel, but if someone wanted an explanation I was going to give as part of my reasoning, the part of your explanation I have highlighted in red.

In addition, they're not really limited in barrel length. They are limited by weight, and if a longer barrel with a lighter receiver and/or lighter stock shrunk the groups, then they'd all have the longer barrels, lighter receiver and/or lighter stock combination. Velocity is a part of the equation, but not necessarily increased velocity. The winners are all shooting within 100 fps of each other.

The other possibility is I didn�t understand what you meant when you said �Barrel length doesn't determine mechanical accuracy.� If that�s the case I apologize.

Yep, we agree.

Cool! Gotta love it when a plan comes together.

Yeah, the benchrest crowd probably would have a lot to say about things that don't relate much to hunting arms, I suppose. BR shooters (far as I know - not being one myself) put in the effort to dial in things like matching powder burn rates to barrels and vice-versa. Most hunters won't go very far with that. I suspect (again, I don't know) that details like that may be a factor in determining optimal barrel length in their game. And most hunters won't spend the money it takes to make a rifle barrel truly accurate anyway.

But when it comes to guns appropriate for big-game hunting (which may or may not be the interest of the OP) and not looking for accuracy differences measured in hundredths of an inch, I don't see any comparison that shows where length will make a difference - on scoped barrels. I've seen too many "handrifles" that shoot just as accurately from a rest as hunting rifles that are often the subject of much boasting, for anyone to convince me there is any practical difference in mechanical accuracy.

JOG - others may see it differently, but I found the staff to be a little help, but not much. I prefer shooting a hunting handgun from a braced kneeling or sitting position, and I don't want to take time to fumble with additional gear. In my way of thinking, if I had to add the weight and bother of a staff to the ~4lbs of a scoped .308win handgun, I might as well invest in a really good ultra-light rifle and rig a good carry system for it. OTOH, I can go hands-free with a holstered revolver, and get within 100yds of game just as easily as with that 4lb piece.

Different strokes....

99% of hunters aren�t the least bit interested in any of the benchrest techniques that benchresters use to squeeze the last bit of accuracy from their shooting platform. In fact, even Palma Shooters don�t spend as much time preparing their ammo for practice and competition. They would rather spend the time shooting than neck-turning and case annealing. The average �Joe,� shows up at range, sights in until he can keep 3 rounds on a paper plate at 100 yards, than calls that good enough, or Minute of Deer (MOD). He�s ready to hunt.

No argument from me here either.

No I wasn't smart enough to keep it...

Typical "handrifle" accuracy - which is to say, quite good.

Thing about those short barrels is that there is less to be effected by improper bedding, heat, harmonics, and such. It's not that it's easier to make short accurate barrels than long accurate barrels - but it's easier to avoid making a barrel less accurate than it could be, if the barrel is shorter.

Make sense?

I just figure the bullet's out the muzzle before you get a chance to wiggle...

Well, I found I could mess up a sight picture pretty fast with a handrifle......That's why I have to get so close.