Curious what your favorite dose of H110 is for 44 Mag loads with the hardcast bullets in the 310gr weight.

I ordered some of Oregon Trail 'True Shot' 310gr WFN GC to load for the SBH. Fairly impressive looking projectile.

Anywho, I looked through the books and see anywhere from 20.5 to 22.5gr H110 for the various jacketed 300gr bullets. Ran some QL calcs and decided to start out at 20.5gr H110 for the 310s. Looks like it should generate somewhere in the area of 1150 fps, and 35K lbs-psi.

So I loaded up 20 rounds with 20.5gr for a test drive, and to regulate the sights before putting the chrono in front of these. They were not bad as far as recoil.

Here's a couple pics,

Wow...

I think wildswalker is driving something similar from his .45LC, IIRC.

I use 21 grs.

Just make sure there is no layered leading with those bullets.

Light "frost" leading, with rifling still present, your golden.

By the looks of the end of your tube, you are.

Have fun!

The receiving end of one of those, would be a VERY bad place to be.

Yep!

The hole no surgeon could fix....

Dude, that thing'd danged near put a terminal hole in a Deuce-and-a-Half...

They get terminal at rifle speed....

Look great! Any chrono info?

Now that is what I call a hammer!! Tom.

I'm going to run some over the chrono real soon, probably tomorrow. Needed to make sure the sights were adjusted before blowing away the chrono...grin.

My old Ruger isn't the tightest thing, I'm curious myself to see what they are doing.

I run 20.5 gr with the 325 gr LFNPB.

I have seen that type of hard cast bullet used on Buffalo and Eland from a 44 Magnum (on one ocassion,) along with some plainsgame, I was not impressed with it on Buffalo but it sure worked well enough on the plainsgame and even the Eland went less than 200 yards..It, in effect, reminded me of using a flat nose solid in a rifle on plainsgame, it worked but wasn't very impressive..It took way too long for the buffalo to expire after 6 good solid hits. It always left a decent blood trail except on the buffalo which left less of a blood trail I might add..It was an interesting 10 days.

If I were to go hunt elk, that is the load I would use.

That's the usual complaint about all of the hard cast SWC/wide flat point bullets. They penetrate lots, but don't kill very quickly.
I've never seen any need for the 300 gr. class stuff. The older 250 gr. stuff has a long record of penetrating plenty in any live target. Even the softer 240 gr. lead factory loads have long had this rep of plenty of penetration.
It is possible to get too little penetration with some of the lighter, faster hollow point juacket bullets I understand. E

I suppose every bullet is a compromise of some sort. These look to me like they take the Elmer's design to the next level.

I'll use these loads for walkabout, when I don't feel like carrying a rifle. Should suffice for any critter that might mistake me for prey.

They will go lengthwise through most anything you poke them at, and are totally predictable in their behavior from the muzzle out as far as you can hit with them. Not tracking means collecting some bone.

If you are a lung shooter, you will be tracking, but you will have a trail.

FWIW the lighter 250 Keith design usually penetrates on par with the heavy WFN at the same hardness, because it has less frontal area in the tissue path.

The chrono says about 1200 fps at 20.5gr H110. That works for me. They all were between 1180 and 1210 fps at 15' from the muzzle.

This is a wide Meplat bullet and should do well in the wound channel department







That is the problem of some, not reconizing that a larger meplat bullet is vastly different in wound channel diameter. All hard cast flat points are not the same nor do they have the same effect on game


Use a wide flat point (like in the photo above) and the outcome will be harmonious

jwp475, I used a hardcast bullet in the 265 grain that looked somewhat like you have in that picture in my .44mag model 29. I have some 325 grian hardcast in my .444 from Beartooth Bullets that are awesome on biggame like moose or elk. I do like those large metplate bullets, they do penetrate deep and kill quickly when I do the shooting!

In this photo there is no leg on this hog, because it just pulled off durring skining

Those that think a proper flat point does little damage, have simply not used a proper flat point of between 72 to 80 percent of the bullets diameter

Guess my question is, will your sights regulate for that bullet? One of my favorite bullets for the .41 Magnum is the 255 grain CPBC WFNGC...problem is since most .41s are regulated with bullets of 210 grains so the 255s shoot WAY high at 25 yards from S&W and Ruger revolvers with the rear sight adjusted all the way down.

I mostly use the heavies in a Freedom Arms and a custom Gary Reeder Bilsey both of which have Freedom Arms front sight bases. Gary provided three gold bead front sights of different heights for his gun and I had Dave Clement make a Keith Long Range front sight regulated for heavy bullets.

Great looking bullet...Bob

All of these animales were killed quickly and no need for tracking with proper wide meplat flat point hard cast bullets





















Never have I experienced a slow kill with wide meplat hard cast bullets. A narrow flat point is another story

The farthest I've had a critter run was 30 yds, got it through the lungs, but that was with a RCBS SAA 45 Colt bullet; the meplat is about the same as a WFN 44.

That's not far actualy, I've seen them run farther shot through the lungs with a rifle

Very true. I have had them run quite a ways with Brenneke slug through the lungs as well, well ast 100 yds..

That shot was at 75 yards, and the lungs were may primary target, not my first choice.

jwp, how many hollow points will open at 75 yards? (grins)

Like I said, if you don't want to track, hit bone.

Those WFN's make a mockery out of critter bones.

Bob, they seem pretty close. I have a Bowen rear sight. With it screwed all the way down I'm hitting grapefruit size rocks at 25 yards. Probably the shorter barrel helps to with less bbl time, and the angular geometry involved.

I'll get it on paper and get some quantifiable answers.

Put this load on paper today. elevation is perfect with rear sight all the way down.

25 yards, weaver stance, five rounds. The inner square is 2", outer is 5". The sideways hits are from a (unstable) 45-70 load I'm fiddling with.

I'd say that .45-70 is unstable. YIKES!

And, I'd not want to be a thing in front of a man with that .44 Magnum load.

THAT, will work!

My heavy 44 load is 21.5 grs H110 & a 310 LBT slug, I've taken a lot of game with that load, nothing stays on its feet more than 3-4 seconds at the most. I've taken everything from moose, elk, bear & african game & lots of the "normal" stuff like deer, antelope & hogs with cast slugs, they never fail if placed properly. Wounded with a 458 is still wounded.
I sometimes wonder where people come up with the slow reacting stuff when referring to cast slugs, I've used them for over 40 years & they just flat work.......always! I've never recovered one so I always have two holes in the hide.
In a few weeks I'll be going after my 7th bear, my gun will be a 5 shot 480 Bisley & my bullet will be a wide flat nose LBT 370 grain slug at 1100 fps, I'll take any angle a bear gives me & I'll hear the bullet richochet off the ground when it exits.
This Wyoming fork horn buck was facing me at about 85 yds, straight on, the Keith style slug hit him in the center chest & exited just in front of the hind quarter, penetration was about 3 feet, the gun was a 5 1/2" Ruger Bisley with a 230 gr Keith at 1200 fps, he was down & out in 3-4 seconds. What would a rifle have done with a straight on shot?



Took this bull moose at 45 yds, offhand with a Ruger 480, 370 gr softnose cast, one shot & down in 20 yds, complete penetration, would a rifle have done better, what would a jacketed handgun slug have done?




Dick

Dick,

I'm interested in your softnosed cast experiences.

I am a real fan of them myself.

Hawk1, don't want to hi-jack this thread. Are you asking how do I make them or what results have I had?

Thanks, Dick

Results;

I make them myself and have had great results. I can post a pic of a 44 cal 350 WLN in action if it keeps in line with the thread? (grins)

I know you have been around the tree more than once, so its nice to learn.

Don't hold back, I'm interested too.

200 gr, WFN 44 mag to 350 WLN 44 Super Mag; the biggest is obviously the 350 WLN.


Softnose hit on a deer at 125 yards my pard shot.




Entrance on a finisher shot from my 45 Colt (325 WFN) Note the spine was hit with a SST slug.


The only one I have recovered. A 50 325gr sabot load. Head on in brisket. Bullet recovered in the rump after going full length and breaking rear femur.


[img:center]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff127/nkhoff/100_1935.jpg[/img]

Softnoses can get real silly in rifles, but that is another story

I don't have anything to add that some of the more experienced guys have not already said. I have a strong preference for hardcast bullets, having seen truckloads of game taken with them. I will continue to hunt with them.

With that being said, keep the pics coming! I love looking at them!!

I'm also here to tell you that HawkI's cast slugs are (or can be) ridiculously accurate. My .45LC Bisley Blackhawk loves the 285 WFN.

And how much game have you killed with, say, Elmer Keith's old #429421 bullet ?
Alot of people seem to think that only how wide the nose of the bullet is makes the differences as to how well it kills. I've got news for you guys. That sharp shoulder on the SWC design kills just as well as the full wadcutter designs. BTDT.
The guy I listen to on all of this is JJHack. He and his clients have killed 100's of black bears with all sorts of handgun rounds and loads. He has found that the jacket soft point/hollow point bullets kill black bears alot faster than any cast lead load.
BTW, he seems to feel that if you are up against a grizzly, you'd better hit him in the brain with any handgun load. Anywhere else and you'd better hope he decides not to go after you. That's because they can easily be alot harder to kill. E

Elmer believed incorrectloy that the wad cutter shoulder cut a full caliber hole, that is not correct., Yes it will in paper, but flesh cavitates around the meplat. This has been proven beyound dought

Keep on beliving JJ about cast bullets not working. The 45 ACP's that is refers to were most likely round nose. I have asked him about the meplat of those bullets on more than one ocasion and have yet to get a reply.


Yes I have used the small meplat "Kieth" style SWC and they are not close to the equal of the wider meplat LBT style hard cast bullets.

Wow! I'm sure glad that jwp's grizz didn't know that a body shot wasn't fatal coming from a handgun! He probably would have been eaten if the bear had been privy to this information. Darn good thing bears don't spend any time on these sites or we'd all be in trouble......

We could be in trouble...

I've taken a great deal of game with the Keith style slugs including the #429421, in fact its been my most used of any cast slug over the past 40+ years. Except for one elk and 3-4 deer all my big game has been with cast bullets.
Again, nothing will make up for poor shot placement, thats a myth that some of the more inexperienced shooters or keyboard experts would have you believe, it just isn't true, hit an animal right & start punching your tag. Also again I'll say that you need "placement" & you need "penetration", the shooter has to do #1 & the bullet has to do #2.
A wide nose slug going at the same velocity will create more damage than a SWC, thats a given, some will try to split hairs here but both work great & the part about cast bullets working slow & a jacketed bullet working like a sledge hammer is mostly untrue, it can happen but every shot on game is different & comparisons are hard to make. I do believe that jacketed bullets on deer from a blind might be a better option because its usually a broadside shot at close range. In my neck of the woods the shots are usually longer, almost never is it the classic broadside shot, the animals are generally on a slope so the shot is uphill or downhill. I'm confident my cast slugs will reach the vitals from any angle, I never worry about angles if I am within my shooting range.

Forkhorn muley, offhand, about 65 yds using a 4 5/8's Ruger 44 maggie & the great 250 gr Keith #429421, complete penetration & down in 30 yds.




"bull" jackrabbits, Keith style 357 maggie #358429



Muley buck, 108 yds using the Keith style 358429 in a 357 Maximum, buck took 3-4 steps backwards & down.



Heart & lungs from the above deer, would a jacketed bullet have done better?



Cow elk, 168 yds using a Ruger 45 colt & a Keith #452424 260 gr slug, complete penetration, she ran maybe 35 yds (3-4 seconds) & down.



Color phase black bear (6' 9") Ruger 10" 44 maggie & the Keith #429421, shot at about 80 yds, bear rolled (not run) 20 yds down the hill towards me, dead in 2-3 seconds, complete penetration.



S&W 44 maggie using the 250 gr Keith #429421, shot at 55 yds, dropped at the shot, complete penetration.

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1651.jpg[/img]

Montana whitetail doe, 15 yds, Ruger 41 maggie & the Keith 230 gr SWC, dropped at the shot.

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1686-5.jpg[/img]

Another Montana whitetail, taken the next day, shot was about 90 yds running, Ruger 41 maggie & the 230 gr Keith SWC, bullet hit in front of the right hind quarter, exited the left front shoulder, deer was running hard, turned a compete flip at the shot.

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1692-3.jpg[/img]

Cinammon phase black bear, Ruger 10" 44 maggie & 250 gr Keith #429421, complete penetration, traveled 10 yds.

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1380-1.jpg[/img]

Calf elk, 45 yds using the Ruger 45 & the Keith 260 gr #452424, complete penetration, down in 3-4 seconds.

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1718-1.jpg[/img]

Montana whitetail buck, Ruger 44 special & the Keith #429421, shot was 25-30 yds running, hit him twice, both shots exited, traveled 30 yds & down.

[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_2218-1.jpg[/img]

I can fill up several more pages but I have 4500 photos to go through.

Dick

For the original post,in a 5 1/2"bl 19gr of H110 got me 1240fps,20gr got me 1315fps.As far as kieths go I think they are like the first model A,they were a good start,but better as collectibles now.The deer I have shot with kieths are dead or still running.And before you start they left blood and in one case lots of it.For me I'll never shoot a kieth at anything but paper.But that's JMO.

Well in the last couple of days I've shown a very small portion of game taken with Keith style slugs in Idaho, Wyoming, Texas, Montana, Utah, Alaska & Africa, and this includes deer, elk, bear, moose, antelope, mountain lions, feral hogs, Javelina, Warthogs, etc. I guess the game is just a lot tougher in some states because those Keith slugs have never failed me, ever.
I do believe that many times people have bad experiences when shooting from elevated tree stands, this is just a guess but I think they shoot over the front lung, this is a bad hit whether with a handgun or a rifle. Again this is just a guess as I don't hunt from tree stands over bait, bait is illegal here in the west.
It does puzzle me that a Keith slug through the lungs isn't as good as an LBT through the lungs. Lots of blood doesn't mean a lung shot or even a fatal shot, at least not immediately. I'll keep on plugging them with my Keiths (model A's) & LBT's & I'll take the blame if its a bad shot.

Doe muley, taken at about 50 yds with a Ruger flattop 44 maggie & the 250 Keith, shot was lengthways & exited, dropped at the shot.



Bull elk, taken in the 70's when I was a young rooster, gun was the 44 magnum in the shoulder rig, bullet was the 250 Keith, broadside shot at 35 yds, bullet exited & the bull ran down hill about 30-40 yds, down & out in 5 seconds.



Dick

I have no dought that you have killed a lot of game with the Keith style SWC. The fact is the wider meplat bullets give a better visual impact on game and leaves a larger diameter wound channel. In its day the Keith SWC was the best around, but alas we have better choices today.

I have killed Carribou with the Keith SWC, but I preferred the wider meplat bullets. They are accurate, and leave larger diameter wound channels. I mean what's not to like?

We are living in the days of great handgun and bullet choices. The best in history IMHO, why not tap into the best of the best? It doesn't cost any more.

Idaho 1945 all deer shot from the ground.The only thing the kieth did kill for me was at an angle and then it was up and a spine shot.I am glad they work for you and I never said the game here was any tougher,but glad you think so. I said they haven't worked for me,and confidence in your choice of weapon and ammo is the only place to start and for what it's worth not everyone in the SE hunts out of stands and over bait! again JMO

I shot this buck with a RCBS-270-SAA, the only deer I have shot with a Keith bullet.

I have shot close to a dozen hogs with 44 and 45 Keiths. They always killed fine for me when placed properly.

I can't lay claim to JJ's bear counts, but I never see mentioned the distances he shot all of these bears. I believe they were control issues, so I believe him shooting treed or trapped bears would help them open. Something I've found not to always happen as distances get longer....

Then again, I never seen any deer sized stuff run away with cast flatnoses in the vitals.

Idaho, thanks!

JWP475, I agree with you on the LBT's, I've said several times that they are a better choice. The part I don't understand is why everyone thinks going bigger is a better way to go, I think accuracy is a better way to go but many people continue to side step the fact that accuracy is much more important than bullet style. Those that knock the Keith slug simply are kidding themselves if they believe their LBT style will kill & the Keith style will only wound, thats if both are placed properly, I'll just never get it!
I make both & I use both........lots of them, and the LBT is better, I think I've said that 3 times in the last couple of days but I fail to understand those that knock the Keith slug, guess I'm just a slow learner.
Lion, taken at 5' using a 357 maggie & the 173 gr Keith slug, down & out in 2 seconds.....luck for me!



Cow elk, taken with my 41 maggie & the 230 gr. Keith at about 40 yds, shot entered behind right front shoulder & exited in front of left hind quarter, penetrated about 4 feet, you can see the exit hole in front of the hip, she ran in a little circle for 10-15 yds & down, would an LBT have worked better?



Nice muley buck taken with a Ruger 44 flattop & the Keith 250 gr slug, shot was about 40 yds, buck was laying down when I shot him, he stood up & fell over just as I recocked the gun.
Wearing an old Lawrence shoulder rig.



Another photo of my lion, hardest day I ever had hunting, 11 hrs on showshoes.



I don't believe one experience with a bullet is a good indicator of how good or how bad it works. I've taken 3 elk with the 325 gr LBT LFN, its a wonderful bullet but none of the 3 were overly impressed with it, it worked but it wasn't magic, they took just as long as any of the other elk have taken (27 elk) nothing will ever make up for placement & penetration.

Dick

Idaho, when I mention "Kieth" style I am refering to the original. There are SWC bullets on the market today that are adverised as "Keith" style but have a meplat as wide and sometimes wider than the original "Keith" Style. I am not sure that every SWC that is mentioned is a "true Keith" style. I have some 230 Grain SWC's that have an extremely wide meplat in 41 cal. These are not original "Keith" style SWC's and have a much wider meplat.

I also agree that if one has no accuracy or poor accuracy then one has a useless load IMHO

..am I incorrect in thinking the following...

Let us say a .41 LBT has a .33 meplat...and the 255 CPBC does have exactly that. And let us say a .44 Keith has a .33 meplat. Is there going to be any difference if both hit the animal at the same speed?

There was an article not too long ago by I believe Brian Pence proving it was the shoulder not the meplat of the Keith bullet that cut the hole...

Personally I don't think it really makes a difference in a hard cast non-expanding bullet...I like and shoot both designs...

Bob

As long as the meplat is the same then their is zero difference. There are indeed SWC bullets with such wide meplats. They are not classic original style "Keiths" is the point


The meplat diameter of the 250 grain 44 "Keith" bullet is aproximately .240+- the LBT LFN is.311 this is a considerable difference. A larger meplat SWC is not a Keith SWC

Brian Pearce has a very good article on loading the .44 Mag with heavy bullets in this month's Handloader magazine. Typical Pearce. Lots of data and little rumor. Very good write. Goes right along with your original question. BTW Pearce will argue the point about the shoulder of the Keith not cutting flesh. And he'll argue with experience and pictures. Seen his articles on it. No dog in the fight for me. I'm learning.

When the front of the bullets are painted and fired into ballistic jellitin the paint stays on the wad cutter shoulder. Indicating that the shoulder has not came into contact with the media.

Pearce is the same writer that wrote the reason that 454 cases were sticking in the SRH cylinder was because the particular grade of steel expanded under presurre and then contracted back down around the brass. Well the steel does indeed expand and countract as does any and all grades of steel

Don't recall him arguing the point on ballistic jellitin, just flesh. In this article he addresses handloads of heavy jacketed bullets as well as WFN's. Seems to like both of those as well as the Keith style under varying circumstances. Has obviously bounced a fair amount of game with a handgun.

Idaho1945 I have a question.I said "They didn't work for me" and from your post I am one of the kieth bullet bashers so to speak.So because you have done so well with them am I suppose to keep on shooting them into animals when I have no faith in them?I know folks,my wife is one,who has had great service out of a chevy truck,I have had better luck with a ford product,we own a dodge becuase my brothers had really good luck with them(point being different opinions people have them).Just because one has a different opinion because of their experiences doesn't make them a bad shot/a novice hunter/tree stander or bait hunter as you referenced earlier.And you've obviously killed tons of game,ever seen one hit in the right spot and carry it like it was the mail?Ever seen one hit wrong and just fall over?Bullets like caliber choice IMO are the same,ask one hunter from every state which they feel is the best and I doubt you will come up with one caliber and one bullet for a nation of hunters,JMO

Cottonstalk, first off let me welcome you to the forum, I think we all missed doing that. If you go back & read what I said I mentioned the fact that I was just guessing about the shots from treestands, I'll follow up on that later. I think I also said that everyone should shoot what they have good luck with, correct me if I didn't say that.
I've also already said that the LBT style is a better game bullet but I haven't had a single failure with the Keith slugs...& I haven't. If a person has had one thats not a fair comparsion, now if they've had more than one it has to either be the bullet not working or the shooter not shooting. How do you know for a fact that you've made a fatal shot when you didn't recover the animal?
I don't have a thing against hunting from a treestand & didn't say I did, I was stationed in Texas for 4 years & if you're going to hunt in Texas you will hunt from some type of stand, either on the ground or in a tree.
So far on this thread there hasn't been anyone stepping up & saying they've had the Keith fail on them except for you & you didn't explain how you knew that so I can just guess that the deer was quite close & you seen the impact.
Now, what I said earlier about a person possibly missing the on side lung when hunting from a treestand. Last year a good friend called me & said he was swearing off cast bullets, now he is an excellent shot, I've shot with him before & he's very capable. OK, he's never killed a deer with a sixgun, he whacks a smallish whitetail from his elevated treestand, she runs off & he loses her. His gun was a 475 Linebaugh using a 440 gr cast LBT bullet, he swears he hit her solid, yet didn't find her. I'm only guessing, just like I said before, but I think because of the elevation above the deer that he hit that little soft spot above the lungs & below the spine, could be wrong but what do you think might have happened, he said the shot was about 15-18 yds.
Well I've tried to defend the old Keith slug, even though I've posted photo's of maybe 20 animals & could show another 50 or more I still don't see any respect for the Keith SWC & everyone's in love with the LBT, including me. I just don't get it with the Keith, old Elmer would be very disappointed after all these years that his "baby" doesn't work anymore.

This is Elmer Keith in about 1974 or 75, can't remember, we were in his trophy room out back of his house in Salmon, Idaho, the old Prophet is probably rolling over in his grave tonight from the pounding he took today.




Dick

Idaho1945 The load 255 kieth @ 1150 fps.Three deer shot with the same load with different results.One shot in a woods path fell on its head,never moved or flinched(approx distance 25yards,quartering toward me).I headed out to retrieve an atv and upon my return said deer was gone.Where the deer fell a large pile of blood remained and just inside the edge of the woods another pile of blood,appeared as though that was where the deer fell down.Block of woods where this took place was 7-10acres.The entire block has been combed 3 times by myself and several friends,nothing any idea?

Deer two shot in path in different block of woods,from a box stand(approx distance 45yards,quartering away).At the shot heard a "smack" deer wabbled as if about to fall and then ran out of there like a bat out of hadees.One small thimble size spot of blood was all that was ever found.Extensive searches have been made since season went out and still nothing any ideas?

Deer three less than twenty yards quartering away appeared as though she was going down as she left the path....nothing.All deer were does,so I can't figure it buck fever.I practice to 50 yards and achieve 3-4" groups,regularly before season started,and shot after every situation during the season with same results,any ideas?

For what its worth I was one the ground for the first and last situation.These are some experiences,all this past season.For me it causes reason to question.Thanks for the welcome.

Cottonstalk, ya know what, I'd quit using the damn things!

Dick

JJ's experiences on black bears was with all sorts of cartriages and loads. His expereinces with the .44 Magnum, which he has also used alot for bear contol work, was what I was refering to. The SWC and wide flat point, super heavy lead bullets were no where near as fast killers when compared to the better jacketed rds. He stated once that even the 180 gr. HP loads worked adequately on body hits with black bears.
I suspect your claim that wide flat points work better than the classic SWC's is based on some sort of bullet testing. Mine isn't. It''s based on killing stuff with both full wadcutters and mild loaded SWC's. No difference in the various wound channels or how fast they kill was apparent. therefore the difference is really only apparent in some sort of test medium.
It all comes down to which trade off you want. More penetration or a wider wound channel. You trade one for the other. But the standard load of a 250 gr. cast lead bullet at 1150-1200 fps. has long had the rep for penetrating anything anybody needs to kill. That was established long before the .44 Magnum was introduced. In fact, the big comnplaint about those loads were that while they killed, they didn't kill very quickly. Again, penetration at the cost of wound channel size. Your pick. E

Come on, Dick, you know good and well that if Elmer were alive today he would be using a .500 Linebaugh stuffed full of WLN bullets.

That's what I was thinkin'. Elmer Keith pushed the envelope based on the tools available. If he were alive today he would be doing the same thing - instead of blowing up S&W's and Rugers he would be blowing up Linebaughs and Bowens.

You need to re-read JJ I think. With all due respect to JJ and his experiences, but they do not trump and make null and void others experience that is different than his. Again with all due respect to JJ, but he once dressed me down about the TSX bullets on game before he tried them and now he thinks that they are best avialable. People that use a proper hard cast know that they work extremely well, those that do not use them may continue to not use them and their experience is gained vacariouly through some one else


This ia picture with a 41 mag cartridge for size comparison of a wound channel inflicted by a rifle and the bullet is a SWC with a very wide meplat an excellent bullet IMHO and experience








IMHO the meplat on this bullet is wider than the"Keith" bullet. I think that the definition of a "Keith Style" SWC has been dilluted over time

You won't like this take: There's no way in hades a cast bullet can outperform an expanding bullet.

You might like this take: Expanding bullets sometimes don't expand, or worse they over-expand. Cast bullets are predictable.

Jog you might like to check out those folks over at Beartooth Bullets! They do a lot of testing in the field and have lots of bonified information on the results of hardcast bullets, both in pistol and rifle. Those large metplat do the job believe me on that fact!

Its true, I think Elmer would love some of the guns & calibers we have today, although I don't think the quality of guns is better for the most part, now they are stronger, longer lasting guns but the fit & finish of the early S&W's & Rugers will never be matched except by the custom guys.
The biggest overall improvement has to be the big, heavy slugs available including some very top quality jacketed slugs, when I started back in the sixties the choice of jacketed slugs was pretty narrow. The old Speer half jacketed slugs wouldn't do much unless you really stoked them up with heavy charges of 2400, but for the most part they just acted like a solid.
I never use jacketed slugs anymore but would be perfectly happy with a Nosler or Belt Mountain Punch Bullet for most game shooting, when the animal gets elk size or bigger nothing will perform like a good heavy wide cast slug. They drive straight & deep & can penetrate the big bones.
No bullet of any kind will make up for shot placement, if you get that & penetration you're on the right track.

Dick

You might like this take: Expanding bullets sometimes don't expand, or worse they over-expand. Cast bullets are predictable.
quoted by JOG....IMO I'll take predictable everytime because predictable is dependable.

JOG, don't be a blasphemer. Cast certainly do frequently outperform expanding bullets, particularly in the realm they were designed to operate -- straight-line, bone breaking, no compromise penetration. I have had jacketed expanding bullets fail to exit on many occasions -- not the case with flat-nosed hardcast bullets. The predictability is good enough for me. So, are you saying you like hardcast over expanding bullets??

Nah, no blaspheming here, gosh dammit.

Generally, I do prefer cast bullets for a hunting round. My experience is waaay less than lots of you gents - Minnesota whitetails and smaller.

Any discussion on generic 'expanding bullets' isn't likely to solve much. One guy will be hunting rabbits and the next guy will be hunting blue whales. An expanding bullet's failure to exit or expand could actually be the failure of the shooter to select the correct bullet, or even the wrong handgun. There are too many variables. Still, an expanding bullet that did its job will make a bigger mess than a cast bullet that did its job.

Cast bullets level the playing field and take out a lot of the guesswork. They're a prime example of the KISS principle.

This is precisely why most of the calibers I hunt with start out at 1/2-inch in diameter -- takes the need for expansion out of the equation.......

Everything in hunting with a handgun is a variable, rifles too for that matter, thats because you can never dicate the distance, the angle, the nervousness, the animals size & the shot placement. Jacketed bullets have their place for sure, espcially on animals the size of deer or if using one of the premium jacketed slugs then animals up to elk size or perhaps a little bigger.
A good friend of mine from Hickory, N.C. is a very accomplished handgunner & has taken game all over the world using good, heavy jacketed handgun slugs, this includes african & asian game up to water buffalo which are bigger than the cape buffalo of africa.
Its all about selecting the correct bullet for the job & then putting it in the right place, when that happens & you also get penetration then you've done your part.
The tricky part is getting the penetration from that jacketed slug. If they are up to the task of penetrating then you can bet there's little or no expansion on most animals.
With the heavy cast slugs of at least 40 caliber with a wide meplat, the expansion is built in just from bullet diameter & that big wide nose. As Whitworth mentions the big heavy one's never fail, shooters can fail because they don't make shot placement a priority & bad things happen, there's just no guarantee's in hunting, especially with sixguns. That challenge is kind of what makes us hunt with them in the first place.

Dick

That challenge is kind of what makes us hunt with them in the first place.

X2

Amen to that, Dick.

I know...........I'm late to the party, nuthin' new....

I use a 300gr. Beartooth bullet (WFNHCGC) ahead of 21.0grs. of H110. Took my first buck with it this last fall, needless to say, in and out.........

I pack it on most all of my field trips, so I load it mainly for protection from large critters. Seems it does OK on deer sized game as well.

Those Beartooth folks make a fine bullet and are very thoughtful and friendly people. When they say "hardcast"....they mean it.

Hope this helps.

Semper Fi............

+1....

I'd just add that I suspect many don't understand that the standard weight bullets used for the .44 Magnum can vary alot as to how much they expand, producing larger wound channels, or penetrate alot more if they don't open up alot.
I remember Bob Petersen of Guns & Ammo fame killing both an Alaskan Brown Bear and an Alaskan Mooose with his 6.5 inch Smith. Absolutely no lack of penetration with the 240 gr. Norma bullets he used. Shot through the lenth of his big moose, for instance.
Elmer Keith had no trouble at all getting his .44 mag, with 240 gr. Remington factory lead loads, which was a softer swagged lead bullet with a thin gas check, to shoot right through the face plate on the several cows he shot with them. A heavy, hard bone that my Dad found would stop a .30-30 slug.
The thing is that if you have your gun zeroed for 300 gr. hard cast loads, that is all you can use unless you rezero it for other ammo. But by going to faster or slower opening bullets, one can use the same weight bullets, which should shoot the same zero, and get a wider variety of performance much more easily.
Odviously, I prefer that option. E

The thing is that if you have your gun zeroed for 300 gr. hard cast loads, that is all you can use,quote by Eremicus

But if that load will do all the person could ever need his 44 to do,why would he change?