Of late I have noticed that we seem to have a couple of individuals that fall into a special category, but they don�t seem to realize. I don�t suffer fools very well (like that�s news huh?), so I tend to not be very diplomatic when I encounter ignorance. I had a conversation with our esteemed VANimrod today where he reminded me of an excellent (perhaps one of the only excellent things he did) briefing by former Sec-Def Rumsfield where he reminded the press of the different kinds of �know�.

1. There is what we know
2. There is what we don�t know, but we know that we don�t know
3. Then there�s what we don�t know, and don�t know (or realize) that we should know.

Don�t know what you don�t know...this is one of the worst situations to be put in, regardless of what you�re talking about. I remember when I started buying energy for a major Fortune 500 company...I knew there was a ton that I didn�t know, and I knew that I didn�t know that I didn�t know...and I worried every day about how much I didn�t know that I didn�t know, would cost my employer.

But when you�re young, enthusiastic, have a big ego, or very insecure; this is when you find guys who don�t know what they don�t know...and really don�t care. That is a critical FAIL. Now I have sympathy for that kind of person because that was me when I was young. My ego just couldn�t take not knowing, mostly because I was insecure. Coming from "The Field" I've noticed that Cops, Firefighters, Paramedics, Nurses, and especially Doctors invest an inordinate amount of their identity in their jobs. It's not, Joe, but Joe the Cop, or Firefighter, or Doctor. And they're ALWAYS talking about work, because their profession makes them feel special.

Now in my case, I had a good friend who was actually a year younger than I, yet wise way beyond his years. He was blunt and told me what an idiot I was (and others were quick to back him up on that). He then pointed out that I would gain a LOT more respect if I just openly admitted each and every thing I didn�t know.

That's a very difficult concept for someone young, insecure, trying to find his place in his career, and desperately wanting to be accepted and respected by his peers. It's counter intuitive actually, to show ignorance rather than knowledge.

�Hell, I don�t know� became my tag line. And that�s when it all turned around. Because as soon as I said that, people were eager to educate me and before you know it...I really did know.

Now a couple of guys here are SQUARELY in category 3, and like I was, they just won�t accept that they really don�t know nearly as much as they think they do. You know the old saying, a little knowledge can be dangerous? Well, that�s them. They think they have it all figured out; the whole pie. They have some GOOD knowledge and a little experience (but probably good quality experience) that validates some of the knowledge they have; but they�re drawing some wrong conclusions. They think that because something works, and some street wisdom or other tests validate it, they�ve got the entire pie wrapped up. When in reality, they only have one piece of the pie...What they don�t know that they don�t know is...There�s the rest of the pie still out there waiting for them.

So I post this for two purposes. 1- To point out what asses you're making of yourselves. Sorry, but you've earned it. 2- A hope that you'll figure out the critical mistake you're making, own up to it, and start down the road of learning, and gaining respect of your peers (not necessarily here, but if you act like you do here, I'm here to tell you, your peers at work think you're an idiot...As sure as the sun rises in the morning, they're talking behind your back).

Regardless of the pursuit, when I hear people make absolute statements, red lights go off...this is someone who doesn�t REALLY know what they�re talking about. With most any pursuit, greatness can be had a lot of different ways. Someone who really knows his stuff, when asked about some �absolute�, they�re mind is running through all the exceptions to most every rule, and then they�ll tend to back off of the absolutes. When you can't think of exceptions to every rule, chances are, you don't know what you don't know.

People who don�t know what they don�t know, and are a bit insecure will quickly cling to absolutes, because there�s comfort and �safety� there...�by golly, this is something I know!� When you don�t know what you don�t know, and then someone begins to tell you something like, �well that can work, but there�s many other ways you can do it too�. Well, that�s just unsettling to someone who is clinging to what they �know�.

Here�s what separates the smart one�s from the dumb one�s. The smart one�s will roll it around in their brain...and not just for a minute or two, but for a good while. Maybe do some research to see if perhaps others, or do some research to see if they can verify what he heard that�s rocking his world a bit. Then engage some true critical thinking, and give it some serious consideration.

The dumb ones... They dig in their heels and begin to reaffirm their �absolute�. And then, in their insecurity, begin telling everyone why it can only be that way, and why he�s the �expert� that everyone should be listening to. What they end up doing is making a complete ass of themselves. How do I know this? Well, this was me in my younger years. (not to say I don't stil make an ass of myself; I just do it in much more clever ways now that I'm older and supposedly wiser . Which is why I have some sympathy for our Young and Enthusiastic brethren who just don�t know what they don�t know; and are too insecure to admit it, and too egocentric to investigate if perhaps they have room to learn.

I�ve been doing this gun thing quite seriously for about 30 years now...and I still don�t know chit. But I know I don�t know chit, and I�ve learned that once you learn how to recognize the BS from the nuggets of wisdom, GOOD forums like this one are a great source of information.

You guys think I hang out here so I can be a smarty pants and show everyone how I know everything. Well the truth is, I�m here because I learn something from you guys every darned day I spend time at the Campfire; hoping to learn a little more of what I don�t know.

Rumsfeld is an idiot with a awful lot of GI blood on his hands, you really should find someone else to quote.

Most of the IED's in Iraq in 05 and 05 were US 105mm howitzer shells, complements of Rummy himself during the 80's. I read that on my mac from my mom's basement.

You just made his point, Exceptionally well. Congratulations.

That's what I was thinking, Mark.

Have either of you two a$$holes ever put what was left of a young man in a body bag, and chunked his corpse into the back of the truck? The IED was a pair of US 105 shells, complements of Rummy, and I didn't read that on the net.

I like it, KG.

An interesting observation Kevin......but now I'll spend the next few days trying to figure out what it has to do with "handguns".....maybe it's one of those things I don't know I don't know.

Even more confusing is what 105mm shells, Rumsfeld and IED's have to do with handguns....in even the most remote way.

I think guys that make long winded post about how good they are usually are not what they want to be in life and no where near as good as they want people to believe.


I also found that people that need to post on the internet for a support group are very weak minded.

Dink

First off, generally speaking, call out threads are for pusssies. Secondly, you're pretty windy Kevin, and you didn't help me out when you started quoting Rummy. I never could stand the bastage.

Nobody but McKay seems to know this Soldier of Fortune dude and I don't know anybody who knows McKay. This ain't some SF or Delta Force alumni site where you have to like, submit your resume' to post. People who been here awhile and know what is going on in real life generally can separate those who have some good info from those who are fos. I like it here. Since you came back, you seem to have designs on like being a Super Moderator or something. We don't need one. Guys like the Knee dude will either sort things out or be proven as frauds or sockpuppets pretty quickly. Why don't you just chill and start playing to your strengths...like technical issues with the mechanics of pistols and suchlike.

As for Dink, I have crossed swords with him before and I don't always agree with him, but he is not always wrong and for a young guy, presents some good info that is worth listening to.

Kevin, I really liked your post. You articulated very well the conclusion I had reached through life experience. And I'm glad you're back.

Guess I'm in the minority, because I also liked Rumsfield; mostly because he didn't take crap from a bunch of clueless and/or prejudiced reporters who willingly distort the facts and statements to fit their socialist/ communist agenda.

Outstanding critical thinking skills for 3 posters. After all I wrote, they only noticed the name Rumsfield. I don't like Rumsfield either, but the truth is the truth, and it doesn't matter what the source if it's the truth.

Cole - If I'm a puzzy in your eyes that's fine with me; I really dont wake up in the morning wondering how I can impress Cole.

And perhaps I have taken on a self proclaimed role of moderator. That wasn't my intention. What IS my intention is to TRY to keep the handgun forum as clear of windbag idiots spouting BS all day long.

Now I'm CERTAINLY one of the windbag idiots...But I don't spout BS. Any time someone calls me on anything I say, I immediately back it up. And I can't count how many times I've backed it up with a phone number of those who could verify. That's the difference.

I've also noticed that those that speak in absolutes generally aren't nearly as well versed, or have anywhere near the experience that they claim to have.

Liar24, and a certain fake Navy SEAL we had around here before spring immediately to mind.

Interesting line of thought. I read it over, and have trouble differentiating between what Rumsfeld said, and Kevin. Quotation marks or italics would have been helpful.

I found the part about some people having a strong need to be seen as special to be particularly interesting. I've had that same thought. It helps explain a number of problems or issues in today's world.

I like posts that make me think, so I appreciate this one.

Paul

Where did you think those rockets in Afganastan came from? The Easter Bunny?
They are left overs from the US and the USSR. And before that, the Brits.

the whole middle east isn't worth one drop of American blood.

Someone sat me down years ago and had that same talk with me (albeit probably a bit more eloquent than I, 'cause I'm about as subtle as a hand grenade), and it really made me think and re-evaluate my approach. It was good advice, that's why I pass it on. Oh, and quotation marks would have been a much better way to go about it...too bad I wasn't smart enough to do that.

The way I see it, is dumb azzes are everywhere. This is an internet forum so none of us really knows who we are communicating with. I could be a 10 year old girl pretending to be a Vietnam vet for crying out loud.
I also read these forums to increase my own knowledge, and if I have some experience in something, maybe my opinion can help someone out too. We are have to take the good with the bad, and not take what someone says too personal, we will most likely never meet anyone here face to face anyway so who cares if some stubborn a-hole refuses any logic or facts? If this place gets too crowded with people like this, there are other places on the net to hang out during slow work days.

Well Kevin, maybe it's splitting hairs, pardon the pun, but I didn't really call you a pusssy. I said that I think callout threads are generally for pusssies. If you want to take it that way, it's up to you. I just think most callout threads are drama-driven, rather than of any real purpose.

I also think that anytime you take on a task like keeping the handgun forum clear of those you think are windbag idiots, you've overstepped yourself some. But hey, gofer it. I've seen worse.

Now if you need any help whippin' this soldier of fortune dude back into line, just sing out. I'll be in bed asleep. (Courtesy of Christmas Vacation on that last. I couldna resist.)

Putting someone in a body bady doesn't change the facts, that you are an idiot. The Sec. of Denfense doesn't make policy or law.

Is that why you do it?

Still failing to see how an accurate summation of knowns/unknowns incorporated into a discussion of handguns has anything to do with Rumsfeld's policies...

Other than I do hope that TaK (and I do believe he's a vet, just not what he's wanting to infer he is) read his orders more thoroughly and with greater comprehension than is evidenced by his reading of Kevin's post.

In my opinion, this is the most accurate statement in this entire thread.

I liken The Fire to a bar for firearm enthusiasts. I show up to both gain some knowledge and be baffled by some BS. I enjoy it. Observing people talking chit just to read their own words or rile up others is funny, of course we all have our limits of toleration for this sort of behavior. Stupidity is fun to observe too, but I agree ignorance needs remediation. KG has good points (as did Rummmy, in the quote) and the post might have fit better somewhere other than handguns, oh well. Thank you all for the knowledge and entertainment.

Glock, 'nuff said. Don't look back and you can thank me later. BTDT.

No way, Taurus for all the added "extra" features at an affordable price.

Tokarev.... we don' nee' no steenkingk safeties....

Hi-Point...because when our lives are on the line, we deserve the very best.

F'k it: Raven Arms/Bryco/Jennings, 'cause 3 million drug dealers CAN'T be wrong...

Awww c'mon fellas ...... every SME knows that real men carry Clerke revolvers.

While I got you all here .... can you recommend a good IWB holster for my Clerke, and maybe a recommendation for a really durable finish. I've got it narrowed down to CeraKote or Black-T. When my money situation gets better, I'll checkout some custom combat sights. :^)

One more thing; I'm hitting just bit to the left at 50 yards or so .... not much, maybe 2 inches. What could I be doing wrong?

Lorcin, F.I.E., and RG...truly unique pieces of engineering that have undoubtedly saved thousands of lives over the years..."when the chips are down"!

<laughing>

I WISH I did not know some of what I know.

You have not taken the role of moderator. What have done is shown that the only thing you have in life is the 24 hour campfire pistol forum. I guess since you never done anything else you wanted to be the guru here but can't stand the thought of people questioning you and don't know how to deal with it.

You have been a bench warmer your whole life and never a player. Its really a shame that a grown man can't stand for his own beliefs with out a support group or a internet "buddy" to go along with him.

Dink

That's true for me as well. If it wasn't for the Campfire I'd have thrown myself off a bridge long ago. The Campfire has solved all of life's mysteries with the exception of how you manage to type with your head up your azz. I figure you must be double-jointed.

Awww...another grown man (maybe) that needs support of people that he has never met and does not know.

Dink

Ya know, I've been quietly reading all this and chuckling along here and there� I don�t post a lot and usually refrain from threads like this. I�m not taking sides with any one person regarding their resume, personal experiences, opinions, personality, ect. However, that one paragraph keeps coming to mind. I don�t know what I don�t know about it... but from what I think I know about it that seems to be a very revealing admission.

bwaaaa Thanks FNG.

I have to be excused on accounta' I only initially opened the thread 'cause I thought it was about some Messican that was kindly dumb and in a bad spot. You know, kinda like Elvis sang about...In the Ghetto.

And his momma cried...

lol

You reckon' that was a Freudian slip thingy?

When I read the original post, it reminded me a bit of the time, a short time ago, not so far away, when a Member posted over on the Campfire that the members needed psychological help, so they would recognize that they needed to unite and ban a somewhat-notorious hunting rifle expert. The response was rather cool, to put it mildly.

Kevin certainly isn't calling us mentally troubled, but it's a bit too preachy for my taste. I do tell people what to do, all day long on the job, but in my free time I am more inclined to let people say what the heck they want. If it's wrong, I'll challenge it, but hopefully without labeling the poster stupid, or otherwise unwelcome.

I don't give a damn what you've experienced in your terrible terrible life. Others have done or seen just as much or more, and don't use it as an excuise to respond to criticism by calling people azzholes right off the bat. Although in this case I'll make an exception for you...azzhole. Go play in your pity pool.

all well and good KG & VA

but to be honest believe ole vilified Stick sums it up best


you can bullchit the fans all you want, but not the players


though there's some that make a fulltime job of bullchittin themselves they're a player


has nada to do with their resume or job description.


my area of expertise is the BPing forum, it's something I've learned mostly the hard way thru trial and error. Pretty easy for me to spot the fans from the players there. With that said, I've learned some valuable stuff there and hope I've been able to shorten the learning curve and save some guys a few $$.

was no stranger to a rifle, but have learned gobs more about them from this site.

handgun forum I definitely come to learn even tho I've some experience with them, and thanks to a bunch of you posters, you've shortened my learning curve and saved me some $$.


have to separate the wheat from the chaff, but it ain't really that big a chore considering what you glean by doing so.

so for all you guys that freely share your knowledge, thank you.

Okay I'll bite. I've done a LOT of things in my life; I have NEVER sat on the sidelines. Which would you like me to verify? Just say which ones, and I'll give you names and numbers. I've done it for YOU before, I've done it with Liar24 also in the past. I have NEVER shied away from putting up when called on ANYTHING.

The editors of the magazines I worked for checked my resume, would you like to call one or two of them?

I give FULL transperancy, and there's a reason I do that. I'm starting my own magazine on the internet. To do so, you have to not only write the truth, you need to be able to verify anything and everything you say or make claim to. Dink, I stand ready. The second you give me your real name (and you can PM that to me and you have my word I won't share it with anyone), I will provide not only you the names and numbers, but I'll post it all RIGHT HERE for everyone to see. That way, if someone else wants to verify, they can.

Going this direction will blow up in your face; but I'm TOTALLY okay with that. You're making an ass of yourself, so why not get in a bit deeper.

Yeah, it was a bit preachy...I'll try to clean up my act as well. One of my MANY personality flaws is, I don't suffer fools well; never have. Need to learn a little more patience.

I think, people who snipe from behind screen names, taking shots at people who post with the reputation of their real name at stake, are pretty much cowards, whether they "know" it, or not.

Dan

Dan_Chamberlain, there's definitely something to be said for that!

Well, why don't you post your address, and gun safe contents as well, work schedule while you're at it brainiac.

Fearless aren't you? What is it about life that terrifies you so? My house is well protected and well insured. My reputation was made the hard way. I won't write what I don't believe, and I won't write something that I haven't done or proven to myself, and I won't automatically believe something that comes from nimble fingers on a keyboard with a screen name. If you want to hide, that's cool. Just don't expect genuine people to be impressed by a screen name that hurls insults.

You diminish yourself further, each time you hit "submit."

Dan

Kevin anyone that get their feelings hurt over stuff posted on the internet have not done much in real life. Your feelings have been hurt and it shows. It also shows how much this forum is apart of your life and how you depend on your internet friends to agree with you and pat you on the back. You need your internet people to give you positive feed back on what your are doing or saying.

You don't like anyone or anything that does not go along with your opinion and can't figure out why some of us won't go along with you and your ideas.

I (and a some others here) don't need a support group to stand behind our opinions. My guess is your going to have learn to live with it, get us banned from the pistol forum or keep making post after post how we don't know stuff because we don't agree with you. My guess is you will be making post after post because you don't know what else to do with guys that have their own opinions.

Dink

Dan,

If only I could have said it so well. I've certainly not handled myself in the best of ways, 'cause I haven't exactly been myself lately. I meant what I've said, but I most certainly could have said it better. Looking at your post makes it all so certain that I could have said it better.

You're a gentleman. And a shining example of another person on this forum who posts with full transparency, while others hide behind the blase old worn out of "security". I can rattle off the names of at least 8 gun writers who post on various foums using their own names (you counted as one). All of whom speak freely of some of the guns they own, all speak freely of the things they have or haven't done, yet by some miracle beyond explanation, none of them have been "targeted" by anyone other than those that "snipe from behind screen names".

I don't hold it against anyone who uses a screen name, I've done so myself in the past. But it's always some "expert" who makes very bold and outlandish claims, and then hides behind their screen name for "security" reasons; weak, and proven to be BS...Just like the outlandish claims they make.

Now there are a LOT of fine gentlemen, and a couple of laides, who use screen names, that conduct themselves in exemplary fashion.

Thin skinned? Me? Yes at times...Yes. I love this forum, and I very much enjoy not only the fellowship we all have here. I love the outstanding exchange of information and I learn every day here. But when these BS agents come into the Handguns section, it's like someone is coming into my favorite coffee house, populated with my best buds, and starts kicking over tables and chittin on the floor. That upsets me; that's why I get thin skinned at times...they're messing up my favorite hangout.

But here's the thing. If ANYONE does such things, but repents of their ways, I'll be the first one to welcome them back with open arms...and even buy them the first round.

Dude, you must be SF, and I don't mean Special Forces, I mean Stupid Fugger!

By the way Kevin, good write up. Les

RE: Going back to the handgun preferences ... (Page 1)
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Only my Walther P88-C, because I do not have a Sig P-210.

Damn Dink, that was almost civil. That's your opinion and I can live with that pretty easy. I have no problem with people who disagree with me. Hell, JWP475 has not only disagreed with me in the past, but downright put me in my place when he proved me wrong with sound, provable logic. I learned some things. JOG has disagreed with me and set me in my place probably more than anyone else in the history of me being on the internet, and I really appreciate him for it. And any time you can prove I'm completely wrong on something, I'll thank you for it...I'm here to learn just like everyone else.

Now, you and I can patch things up in a New York Minute. You keep claiming I've never done anything, and I've offered time and again to provide you with names and numbers. Does that sound like someone who hasn't done what he says he's done. And if I haven't done these things, why would I be so limited? Why not shoot for the stars like Liar24 or others who claim to be "Operators?" Think it through...seriously. You're saying that just to get under my skin, admit it. If you REALLY think I'm full of chit, it's SO DAMN EASY, JUST CALL ME ON IT!

But you know what? I know that you are young and you do know a few things that most certainly are true. I know you could offer a lot here, 'cause I've seen you do it on several occasions. Just think before you make a highly controversial statement...if you can solidly back it up; let 'er rip! If you can't, then all you have to do is preface it with, "it's been MY observation", "It's MY opinion", etc. And then be open minded to the responses and don't take anything personally.

Just call me on whatever you don't believe about me and we can put this all to rest. Or, admit you're just trying to get under my skin (and I think most everyone can tell, that's what you're trying to do...with some limited success)...and I'll admit that I've said some things right back to try to get under your skin (with limited success), and we go on. I'll be more than happy to forgive and forget...in an instant. What do you say?

Eat S H I T and die, mofo.

Typical, yer spec ops as much as I am fuggin obammy's ol lady.

Gee, I was hopin' we could talk about my new Kel-Tec 9mm, PF-9.............oh well, maybe some other time.

MM

You know my thoughts on the 9mm, fat chicks and mopeds have alot in common with them.

Two subjects that you are veritable savant on, given experience and affinity.

Les I was going to post the arguing with a retard on the internet pic but I couldn't find it...you steal it again?

TFF, Sean !!!!!!!!!!



C'mon Les, let's fess up on that one.

MM

Only when I was a private and very very drunk!

Two states of which you've logged ample time, I'm sure.

Well, at least there's one honest person here........you're off the hook, Les.

Don't forget next time though, roll 'em in flour & look for the wet spot !!!!

MM

Unless you're real drunk, then it's roll 'em in wet, and look for the flour spot.

Kev,

You're obviously more experienced in that activity than I am, maybe even more-so than Les. LOL

MM

Hey, I'm not as think as you drunk I am ossifer.

Well, this has been entertaining! Anyway, TAK, sorry that you dislike Rumsfeld so much, but he never gave any 105mm ammo to Iraq. The Iraqis couldn't have used it anyway, seeing as they didn't have any 105's. No foreign military sales of 105 ammo to Iraq. No foreign military assistance providing 105 ammo to Iraq. No reason to provide arty ammo to Iraq, as the Soviets, South Africans, and Europeans were happy to oblige.

Mesabi

Rummy gets blamed for a lot of things. He never gets credit and there's a mountain of credit he's due for his lifetime of service. One of the smartest men to ever serve his country. If one takes that quote at face value, and I'm thinking that it wasn't perfectly recreated here as I heard it when he said it, it is perfectly logical. If Obama had said it, someone would be carving it in granite.

Dan

And TaK's little house of cards continues to tremble...

You are a lying SOB, I worked for Cochise Consultancy in Iraq, we provided security for a company called USA Environmental, composed mainly of US EOD guys and ammo handlers, under a Corps of Engineers contract to destroy Sadaam's exhaustive supply of munitions. THE IED of choice was a US 105 shell, because it was easy to pack and would go off reliably.

I also was involved with the removal of US 1000lb. MK 88 iron bombs, at a former depot across MSR Tampa from FOB Taji. The only reason they were there is the IED crews couldn't haul them away during the night.

Saddam had huge bunkers full of munitions for which he had no delivery system. He would work a deal with one country for ammo and another country for the guns, which didn't always happen due to the embargo.

Instead of reading chit on the internet, you might just ask someone who was there, [bleep].

Don't know who's full of what, but this is getting rather interesting.

And, so what you're saying (and I have NO doubt of that at all) is that Hussein (the Saddam, not the Barak variety) would broker foreign weapons trades and bring in stuff from everywhere ... which we all know.

Yet, somehow him doing so was Rumsfeld's fault? 'Splain, Lucy....

Compound that with the fact that Saddam was an "ally" during the Iran/Iraq war, and we supplied them, then. Caspar Weinberger was SecDef then, not Rumsfeld.

When we didn't take out Saddam during the first Gulf "expedition", the SecDef for Dick Cheney, not Rumsfeld.

Look, just like the Beretta 92, I am no fan of Rumsfeld. But, blaming Rumsfeld for munitions or weapons being in the hands of Saddam, when he wasn't the SecDef during our allegiance with Iraq, and he wasn't responsible for Saddam brokering weapons trades on the black market... and he certainly wasn't responsible for wiring up the IEDs... well, that seems a bit incongruous to the facts, doesn't it?

Rummy was secdef from 75-77, that is when the build up started. Cap Weinberger was also not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Rummy kicked Gen Shenshiki to the curb when he said that Iraq would require 200,000+ troops to pacify and control. Rummy said 50,000 would be plenty. Shenshiki predicted the IED problem, his vision for "stablity ops" required mine and bomb resistant vehicles (Strykers), which Rummy and most of the general fought him on at every turn.

"You go to war with the army you have" Rummy told a bunch of NG guys in Kuwait about to convoy up MSR Tampa with no armor. They went to war with the army that a$$holes like him provided. The IED is nothing new, the VC were using them at the end of Vietnam quite effectively.

The continent of africa has been IED alley in every conflict for the last 30yrs. That is why the S. African Mamba vehicle, with its V-shaped bottom (that our US clients rode in in Iraq) came to be. Every smart SSG with a SOF magazine subscription knew this, but all the Carlise Barracks War College grads and political appointees like Rummy couldn't figure it out.

Have you ever seen what is left of a Hummer after an IED? It ain't pretty, to say the least. Every time I see a crippled vet, I think of Rummy. He is the Robert McNamara of this war.

Considering that my stepbrother survived one of those HUMM-V vs. IED incidents, and more than a couple Marines I served with (Klintoon years) did not, yes, I have a clue.

Never said I was a fan of Rumsfeld, but you cannot logically assign Hussein's possession of 105s to Rumsfeld. It's simply not factual.

My position is, and has always been, that no one should ever be SecDef without military combat experience. If they have no first-hand knowledge of combat and what it means to lead/be in battle, they have no right to assume the responsibility of sending men into battle.

I'm FAR from a Rumsfeld supporter (never have been; never will be). Still, the facts and logic simply aren't there.

IEDs go back WAY further than Vietnam. WAY further. IED = "boobytrap". Been around as long as there has been warfare, and explosive versions ever since explosives were invented.

And, regardless, that has nothing to do with the validity of Rumsfeld's statement ("there are known knowns; the things we know we know. There are known unknowns; the things that we know that we don't know. And, then there are the unknown unknowns; the things that we do not know that we don't know.") That is simply a concise assessment of battlefield information.

Further, his statement has next to nothing to do with Kevin's post; simply a tie-in and use of the otherwise accurate statement.

Ergo, I'm not sure if you know where you're going with this, but from this end, it sure as hell looks lost.

And, as previously stated, I've no doubt you're a vet (thank you, btw), and if you have the experience with those contractors, just say so. Put up what you did, and it'd lend a helluva lot more credence and credibility to what your positions are and why they are as they are (incorrect as some may be... ).

Interesting take on things. I didn't agree with you on the Beretta issue, but I kinda like reading your stuff.

I've made some friends here. They know who I am and where to find me if need be. As far as anonymity on the internet, forget it. The .gov has things so locked down that unless you are the real deal computer-wise, there is no such thing as anonymous.

Now, anonymous from dumbasses who fly off the handle and threaten and psychos who get so torqued up over nothing that they are willing to drive across several states to get their asss whupped, is a different story. A handle provides an extra bit of security. Only a moron would put all their info out there for all the crazies, not to mention all the spiders constantly harvesting info for who-knows-what purpose.

That some folks let themselves be goaded into posting their info just because they want to win some stupid argument on the internet is telling.

I tried not to get involved in this "essay" discussion, but here I am.

Kev, I thought your post was well written, but I have to agree with Cole that it does not belong in the Handgun Forum. Lots of places on the Fire for that sort of stuff.

Am I wrong, or is that the reason for all the different forums?

TAK, it's supposed to be "Quiet Professionals", not "Drama Queens".

Before I was assigned to the M1A2 TAFT in Kuwait I had to go to several months' worth of training at various CONUS locations. One of the courses was the Security Assistance Management Overseas Course. Part of the course was wading through records of various sales to various countries in the region, and there was nothing there for Iraq. I'm not doubting you saw 105 rounds, seeing as how Iraq captured M102 howitzers from Iran during their war. It's logical to assume they captured some ammo, too. Both the howitzers and the ammo date from the days of the Shah. Or it could have come from Lebanon by way of Syria, or even smuggled in from Jordan (though I doubt it).

I've got pictures of a pallet-full of Rem-UMC .38 ACP we found in a warehouse full of Chinese AK ammo during Operation Just Cause. That Rat-Bastard Rumsfeld! I wish he did a better job during the "build-up of 75-77", because I enlisted in 1976, and it was a really lean time for the Army.

I don't know if TAK if for real, and I don't really care. If he is, I can guess what kind of soldier he was. Probably the kind that was relieved by Jason Amerine right before things went sideways.

You gotta long tab Mes? Did you know Amerine? I didn't know him but I knew Jeff Davis, and I'm not aware of any more problems on that team than any other deployed ODA, or is this just some chit you read on the net? If things went "sideways" with ODA personnel, that was a lick on MSG Davis, and I doubt you are worthy to lick his jungle boots.

I don't know where the US stuff I saw in Iraq came from, and I suspect you ain't gotta clue either. Riddle me this, where did those thousands of US 1000# iron bombs I saw came from?

No tab. Even if I had one, claiming it on the internet would be foolish. Said "How's it goin'?" to Amerine once. Never claimed I was worthy to lick anyone's boots: That must be a fetish that you're into.

You said you knew that Rummy supplied 105 ammo; now you say you don't know where it came from. I already gave you my opinions of where it came from. You may ply your hysteria on other more willing participants.

Out.

You've gone from being 100% sure that Rumsfeild supplied the 105 ammo to Iraqi, suddenly "you are not sure where it came from". The truth is starting to come out

I can't prove Rummy was responsible for all the USGI ordnance in Iraq, but a lot of the dates of stuff over there suggests he was.

What however, is not a point of contention is that he screwed up the invasion by sending a fraction of the soldiers necessary for the job, and sent them in there TOTALLY ill-equipped for the mission he sent them on, against the advice of a minority of his senior staff, whom history his vindicated.

The burn center at Ft Sam has been quite busy with the results of his lack of forethought and poor judgement.

TaK;

You're got a personal hard-on for Rumsfeld. For whatever reason, it is what it is. Your personal feelings are your own.

However, if you are who/what you say you are, and do/(have done) what you say you do (have done), then you should have the operational and situational integrity and honesty to acknowledge when, where, and how the facts do not meet with your preconceived ideas or your enotional bias.

Knowing enough to know, that emotional/situational/factual disconnect is what has and does get folks killed.

I would hope that you are better than that.

That's not a slight; perhaps just a nudge into the "hey, wtf man" self-realization of facts/situations.

Rumsfeld has more than enough to answer for on his own, for what his directly responsible for; adding mistakes not his isn't necessary.

True enough, point taken. I stand corrected.

Regardless of politics,
the dang manual safety simply does not belong on the slide.
John Browning and Gaston Glock knew it.

This is the "Handguns" forum. Let's keep it that way.

I couldn't agree more.

All I can say is the best forums seem to have the least moderation. I made the mistake of accepting being appointed a moderator of a few different forums on other websites, and my stance is to be mostly hands off.

So no offense to the op, but trying to be a self apointed moderator is at best a loosing battle Truth sorts itself out, and stupid is the least receptive to correction.

Speeking of handguns, I need to get to the range!

Wholeheartedly, on all points expressed (especially where the damned safety ought to be mounted).

Well, I really wasn't trying to be a moderator. The intent of this post was exactly what the essay said. To point out that the guys who were making incredulous statements may have intended well, but since everyone pounced on them, and they just dug their heels in deeper and deeper, yet really offered nothing of substance...I was trying to tell the guys, while you may have intended well, PLEASE consider that maybe you just don't know, what you don't know.

Clearly they made statements that may not have been "wrong", but they certainly were not "Fact". We come here to learn, and when someone makes a statement of fact, and clearly it's not fact, then generlly someone will call them on it. Most people who have it within them to admit they're wrong, will go something like "Oh, I didn't realize that, or "whoa, I never knew that" or something. Since these two, who clearly are not DUMB took offence to anyone saying they could be wrong.

So I was trying to get them to consider an alternative. Perhaps you don't know what you don't know...happens all the time.

I'm certainly not a moderator, wouldn't want the job, don't think we need one (okay, I was BEGGING for a moderator when we had Liar24, but that was the only time).

My hope, is that we can pull these two out of the nose dive they're in and make them into productive members of the forum, 'cause I think they have something to offer.

Hey, I gave it a shot...CLEARLY I failed...I fail at a lot of things, so sorry I brought it all up.

Not that I have ANY dog in THIS fight, but Mesabi, some food for thought. It's well known that during the late Reagan years, that Rumsfield supplied VX gas missiles to Iraq when it looked like Iraq was starting to lose the Iran vs. Iraq war. That's the weapon that got all the bad press, but while I can't seem to find anything to verify it, I have a hard time believing we sold ONLY our most ugly chemical weapon. And while the only piece of Iraqi artillery that has ever managed to get any press is their South African 155's that were designed by Gerald Bull, they had to have something before that. Given the well established reputation of the splendid accuracy of the US 105, and the huge success it was in international sales for DECADES, I think it's well within the realm of possibility that Iraq had some 105's at some point. If not bought directly from us, then perhaps second hand. And since we were willing to sell the horrendous VX missiles, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that we could have sold them ammunition for 105's.

Now, this doesn't prove a damn thing. And TAK blames Rumsfield, but Rumsfield was acting on the behes to his president, he NEVER had carte blanche to just run off and sell weapons of mass destruction without the Presidents signature, no matter how much you may hate Rumsfield.

I don't know the first thing about 105's in Iraq; but I can think of at least a dozen ways that most ANY highly common (and the 105 is highly common) artillery could be found in Iraq or any other war zone. I find it HIGHLY possible and even probable that Israel cold have supplied not only the shells, but the guns as well. While it's not extremely common knowledge that Israel sells military hardware to Arab states, it's not exactly some high level secret; I've read more than one story talking about just that...I rememberd these stories because, like probably everyone else, I went "why the hell would they do that?". Israel receives about 2.6 billion in military aid from the US, but it comes with strings; they have to buy US equipment. Well let's say Israel doesn't need 2.6 bil in military equipment, but DOES need 1 billion in cash. Simple, sell off some older equipment that you've just upgraded with from your US aid, and you can raise a billion pretty easily.

So, while the two you you are dukeing it out, I can certainly see ways a highly common artillery shell could end up in Iraq, or just about any other theatre of war. Look at all the other oddball stuff you never thought you'd see in Iraq, but magically appears there. On the firearm side, the good numbers of MP-44 assault rifles is odd (very cool - but odd), but we know the Germans sold them to Syria, and Syria sold them to Iraq.

In the mean time Dink...I've extended my hand; let's bury the hatchet. You begin acting like a gentleman and perhaps think before you post something outlandish. I on the other hand, will work to conduct myself in a much more gentlemanly fashion, and try not to get my tampon in a twist when I see BS.

Or if you'd prefer, we keep it like it is, and I'll just ignore you.

Just let me know our preference sir.

Kevin, I already explained where my information came from: The actual FMS/FMA records. If you want to believe there was some secret conspiracy, feel free to do so, with the understanding that the records aren't secret, but they're a real pain in the ass to dig through. Coming up with a conspiracy theory is much easier than doing nug-work; many people in the media have made a career of it.

Like I said, Iraq captured American M102 (105mm) howitzers and ammunition (which we sold to the Shah) during their conflict with Iran. The South African G5's (based on the Canadian system designed by Bull) were an extremely small percentage of Sadaam's artillery; the bulk was Russian designed 152mm towed and SP systems. Even the 122mm systems were a minority, because on the Middle Eastern battlefield smaller systems like the 105 just don't have the desired range characteristics for mobile warfare.

Also, I didn't know that it was "well-known" that Rumsfeld supplied VX missiles to Iraq. In fact, I'd like to know what "VX missile" the US had in it's inventory. (Of course, the SecDef can't do anything but forward foreign requests with his recommendation to Congress for approval or disapproval. The State Department provides input and licenses sales.) The Soviets that provided the 152mm and SCUD delivery systems must not have liked the competition.

I think you're also way-off on "Germans" selling MP/Stg-44s to Syria. The Soviet Bloc may have provided them from captured stocks, but far more were provided by East Germany to Somalia. Iraq didn't need -44s, they had plenty of East German, Romanian, and domestically-manufactured AKs.

lofl

The "slide" mounted safety is not now, and never has been a "safety". It was always intended to be a Hammer Drop for a double action to single action semi-auto. Once the hammer was dropped, the lever was supposed to go back to fire mode so the weapon could be fired with a pull of the trigger, double action. It was only bureaucrats who decided to employ it as a "safety" and force officers to carry it that way. After that, the "nomenclature" was modified to include the words safety into our vernacular.

It never appeared on single action pistols because it wasn't needed on single action pistols. Those who use it for a safety, are defeating its purpose and the purpose of the pistols it is featured on.

Dan

There-in lies the problem, "the majority" of the senior staff was wrong. Most side with the majority when faced with making tough decisions. I Seems to me that the "proffessionals" (the senior staff) should be the ones of blame, after all it is there proffession to "know these things and they didn't

Regardless of its intended original design intentions (decocker), locating it on the slide is an abortion. Making it function as a safety also is a trainwreck. Period.

The original Beretta 92 had a frame mounted safety.
When the 92S was designed the slide was given a decocker which performed as a safety also. It was not designed decocker only.

Are you referring to the S&W varieties?

I'm glad that's settled.

A "decocker" makes sense, regardless where it's placed. But as the majority of new guns tend to be on the lines of the Glock, any decocker is pretty much obsolete.

Dan

"Now, anonymous from dumbasses who fly off the handle and threaten and psychos who get so torqued up over nothing that they are willing to drive across several states to get their asss whupped, is a different story. A handle provides an extra bit of security. Only a moron would put all their info out there for all the crazies, not to mention all the spiders constantly harvesting info for who-knows-what purpose."

Trick is to not post something that would rile a psycho moron up in the first place. What good does it do? In the mean time, no one's been here to visit me. Of course, if you piss off a cop, you might find them using official means to track you down and put the word out to brothers in your town to remind you of your station in life.

I know of one instance where that happened on another forum.

Dan

Can agree with the need on a DA/SA, on its location not mattering I can not agree.

Striker fired pistols deal with safety in a different manner.

I stand corrected sir, thanks. What I said was something I could envision, at no point did I say any of it was fact.

As to the VX, I put the word missiles, and now that I think about it, I'm not sure it was missiles, but it most certainly was VX. There was a speech where I watched Rumsfield saying the US knows for a fact that Iraq at least HAD WMD's because Rumsfield said HE brokered the deal in the '80's. The speech was about accounting for those weapons. If I saw the interview on television, then I would imagine it's AT LEAST public record, if not common knowledge. Perhaps it's not common knowledge because the MSM has conveniently chosen to forget that speech after we didn't find WMD's in Iraq.

And the story on the MP-44's that I read could have been incorrect. I said they were sold to the Syrians by the Germans...It could have been the East Germans, the story I read was about a decade ago. Regardless, a good number of MP-44's have been found in Iraq. And I wasn't inferring that it was the Iraqi military that had those weapons, but the insurgents. Iraq wasn't on the most friendly of terms with Syria, so I wouldn't expect the Iraqi government bought them from Syria.

What I have learned from this thread so far is that some of us come here to learn, and some come to impart wisdom.
The problem seems to be that the pecking order is not universally honored.
I like to think I am here to exchange opinions with others and share experiences.
Kevin,
I thought you were a policeman because of the blue shirt and holding a handgun. Then I thought you were a paramedic for some reason. Now your profile says you are a buyer and a writer.
How did you attain expert status in the art of pistolcraft?
I know that I don't know, (I think).
whelennut

Smart idiots keep their mouths shut so other idiots don't know how smart they really are.

Here's a less cryptic response. Cops who use "official means" to track down people for personal reasons are headed for an abrupt end to their career if they are found out.

"Well Lieutenant, I uh...ran a full background check on this guy and then me and Deputy Dawg went out to his house and tazed him a few times because he made Deputy Dawg's wife's third cousin (also her Uncle) cry over some vicious comments made on the internet."

I think this thread is starting to make me lean toward S&W.:)

Whelennut -
Well, I don't know about expert, but I've been around some. I've actually done a LOT of jobs; I'm just a touch of a workaholic and It's rare that I have just one job. I've always got something going on the side. I was a paramedic for 16 years, but while holding that job, I've done many other 2nd jobs, one of which was a bodyguard. But being a bodyguard really has very little to do with pistolcraft other than you're expected to be a bit confident...I actually had two clients ask me to take them shooting to see if I shot well (I was surprised as hell both times...just when you're convinced someone could care less, they surprise you).

At a very young age of 19 I began gunsmithing working for the '80's version of Century Internationa, which was Pacific International, and ARMEX International (the class 3 side of the house). I've done the job of gunsmith both vocationally and has a hobby ever since. I still take jobs from time to time, but my wait times are always around a year, because I'm raising kids. When I attended bodyguard school and a few other bodyguard specialization courses, I've received some top notch training, most notably from John Farnam, whom I personally think is the best in the biz. These days, there are few who have heard of Farnam because he's always worked on word of mouth only. Still, he has trained some of the (actually THE) largest LE agencies in the world, as well as oodles of some of the top military organizations (often special ops as well). I've reloaded for around 30 years, competed in IPSC, Benchrest, Bullseye, 3 gun, Sporting Clays & trap. I've been in foreign lands doing protection work. I'm a graduate of Executive Security International, you can take a look at their web site and see what kind of work their grads often do, and where. I'm under NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) with all my clients, so there's no kiss and tell allowed, and that's standard throughout the entire industry. NDA's typically have a 5 year expiration date. There are several sections and clauses in your typical NDA, but the section of whom you've protected is usually covered under the "Survivability" setion of the NDA, which essentially says that after the NDA expires, this or that section will survive or XYZ duration, and the whom you've protected usually has a "survivability" of another 10 years. In short, I can't talk about whom I've protected for an average of 15 years from the signing of the NDA. And my intention is to never talk out of respect for their privacy...yeah, even the one's I didn't like.

So "expert?" I don't know about that. I'm "expert" enough that I've been published in most popular firearms publications. But I don't consider myself an "expert" at all; just another student of the gun like most everyone else here. In fact, it's the proclaiming of "expert" on this forum I'm offended by. The so called "experts" who have made either clearly wrong or outlandish statements and when asked they say, "Because I say so, I'm an expert".

I have never said "because I say so, I'm an expert". I've given my opinion or my observations. On occasion I've stated "facts" as I knew them and made sure I could back those facts up. The only time I've offered my resume was either when telling a story and one of my jobs was a part of the story, or when soemone flat out asked me (like you did). If someone has ever asked for specific references, I've always provided those if my credibility was in question (with the exception of whom I've provided protection for, because I'm under NDA). But verification of things like ESI, DTI (Defesnsive Training International - John & Vicki Farnam), my Paramedic past & experience. At one time I did some education at UC Davis Medical School on terminal ballistics, someone called me on that and I provided my contact there; but she has since died of cancer (EMS Base Coordinator Shirley Lowry - RIP) , and I doubt anyone around there these days knows who I am since that was 20 years ago this year.

But with this thread, I'm learning that people don't care whether I'm credible or not so I'll probably learn to ignore those who post BS and no longer call attention when complete BS is spewed. I tried to challenge BS in the hopes that those who truely come here to learn will not be taken in by the "experts" who suddenly become shy when someone questions the credentials they're quick to give out when they say "because I said so". I've learned that people around here don't much appreciate when I call the BS-er's so I'll just stop doing so.

Impressive resume'. If you took note, I did not dis your experience or knowledge. I think some of the conclusions you've drawn are faulty. Most people are guilty of that to some extent. Perhaps I am too being too hard on your desire to post info. I suppose if I was a published author in the gun field I would take seriouser what people on here thought of me as perhaps my reputation on some site such as this would matter. Also, maybe I would put more of my info out there in order to drum up readers-no offense intended. As it is, I like the idea of handles as they give you a wee bit more protection from jackhammers like the one above who like to make veiled threats about cops visiting you because you said that their favorite gun sucked or maybe didn't give them full credit for all 80 of their IQ points.

Cole,

Thanks...I'm not all that impressed with my resume. Yeah, I do put a lot out there to drum up the click rate on my web site; that's how the online game works.

And about your opinion that some of my conclusions I've drawn are faulty...I would say it's a difference of opinion. There's two kinds of conclusions, true/fales and opinion. EVERYone has their own opinion, and when I post mine, either it's obvious it is my opinion, or I'll state it it. An example would be my "Truth about the Glock" piece on my web site...clearly labeled opinion piece.

The other type is the fact or no-fact type conclusion. If I get that wrong, I hope someone would correct me so I can learn. When others present facts that clearly are not facts, I do the same. The difference is, I'm looking for facts and knowledge, and those who don't want to be corrected, they're trying to puff up your ego. Now I'd be a fool to say I don't have an ego, but I try to keep that to myself (and sometimes I don't do a very good job). Lately I've been under some medical treatment following a surgery, so I'm not exactly myself - good example of me not being at my best)

But at the end of the day, I think people come here to share knowledge with like minded people, enjoy being in the company of others who share the same interests. In the past, we've all been interested in the truth, but I'm getting that this is something that is of less importance. So, I'll adjust my attitude accordingly. NO PROB.

Lot of interesting chest thumping and self horn tooting here it seems.
Awhile back JB posted a thread about post responders usually not even reading what was originally posted ,but they are so ego bound that they have to post something in response. No matter if it is correct,makes sense,or is even closley related to the topic. That rings pretty close to the truth on this thread.

I would venture to say that at least 75% of the posters here really don't care what anyone thinks they know.

Over the years I have found two things to be true. Beware of the person who tells you how honest they are. They usually are not. Beware of the person who tells you how much he knows. They usually don't.

Kevin,
Your experience is extensive no doubt about it.
Thanks for the heads up.
Just keep in mind some people have a rather big ego and thin skin around here.
whelennut

Not speaking of anyone on here, but I also take note of people who talk, but doesn't listen.