I did some 9mm ammo testing with my Ruger P95DC and want to share my results. My local thrift stores don�t want old encyclopedias anymore, and my wife said to get rid of them, so I bundled up the old Funk & Wagnall�s and headed for the range. Though this media is nothing like ballistic gel, I figured it would show me ammo performance relative to one another. Here's the list:

1. Winchester white box, 115gr FMJ.
2. Remington UMC 115gr JHP
3. Hornady TAP 124gr JHP
4. Remington Golden Saber 124gr JHP
5. Winchester Personal Protection 147gr JHP
6. Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ



My magazine at home had been loaded with the Hornady TAP premium ammo. I figured this more expensive fodder would be best to defend the domicile. But, I had never tested it. It�s no longer my choice and here is why...




LOAD

1. Penetration: 1.75�

2. Penetration 1.75�, expanded to .387�

3. Penetration 1.75�, expanded to .626, jacket separated

4. Penetration 1.75�. expanded to .740�

5. Penetration 1.75�, expanded to .792�

6. Penetration: 2.75�, bullet tumbled

All shots were fired at ten feet into the books. Penetration was about the same for all loads, with the single exception of the #6 NATO ammo that penetrated more. What is cool is that it also tumbled. If you ever have to defend yourself against an armed gunman while in a library, two encyclopedias will stop a 9mm round. You will need three to stop the NATO round.

It looks like I�ll be switching to the Remington Golden Saber ammo for home defense. Maybe the Winchester 147gr JHP, being sub sonic, would be easier on the ears when fired indoors.

The poorest performer was the Remington UMC 115gr JHP as it only expanded .032".

Water soak the books and try the test again. Adding water induces hydraulics to the equation and is a more realistc test for a defensive bullet

The results are rather interesting none the less

I use the same as Dept. issue here, Speer Gold Dot 124 JHP. Holds together well and have seen the results in a couple of actual shooting with it, it WORKED.

Lately I am really digging the 147 gr. in the 9mm. The companies have really gone to work on this one and the results have been very, very, good. The 147 gr. Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T, and Speer Gold Dot have impressive gel ballistics, but more importantly have been knocking people down in gun fights on the street in real life for the LE agencies that have adopted the "new age" 9mm. Side benefits are I've found the 147's to be really accurate and softer shooting than the 124 gr. +P loads.

I carry the 124 gr Gold Dot +P in my Kahr and the Hornady 115 gr Critical Defense in my M&P. I hope they work if i ever need them.

...a question for you... Can you name some PDs that carry 9mms that still carry 147s? Can you tell me why the FBI, who was responsible for fostering the 147s on PDs, no longer carry it if they were so great...

147s have a muzzle velocity from 4" guns of 950+- fps depending on the brand. The .38 Special +P 158 LHPs have a MV of 950 fps+- depending on the brand of ammo... So when you feed your 9mm 147s you have turned it into a 15 shot .38...

A friend shot a guy with two knives in the face as I was pulling into the driveway where the shooting occurred. He hit the guy just below the left eye socket... The 147 SS bounced off the eye socket and went around to the back of the neck. Another friend in Dallas did the same with a .38 158 +P and had the same happen.... Over penetration in soft tissue and under penetration of hard cover.... At low velocity jacketed HPs are totally dependent on a high tech HP to make them open...when HP gets plugged they are nothing but ball...

As the then head of the FBIs Training Division stated in an interview I read when asked why the 147 9mm was no longer used by the agency he stated "it had not worked quite as well as planned"...

Bob

st louis city mo. p.d. carrys the 147 winchester white box ammo on duty. they have been shooting the piss out of folks lately. some die and some don't

Bob,
I use to drive a 1985 F-150... not anymore. The newer 2012 truck is more comfortable, efficient, and safer. The same can be said of the 147 gr. 9mm loading. I think you are stuck thinking of 25 year old data and things just aren't the same anymore. This is a much improved product. Some unbiased decent gel testing to compare loads...

Federal HST 147 standard velocity. Note, the +P version of this runs 1,050 fps from a 4.5" barrel. My M&P has a 5"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXfDcY-0gU&feature=relmfu

There are many LE Agencies using the 147 gr. 9mm. This stuff changes all the time, mostly based on economics, but from the top of my head without digging around on the Internet the last I knew LAPD, LA Sheriff's, San Diego CA, Portland OR, Maricopa County Sheriff's AZ, St. Louis MO, some larger area Florida PD's, several large Texas PD's, and once again several federal agencies are using this new age 147 gr. 9mm.

Regarding the headshot that your friend applied, that isn't uncommon performance at all. Skulls are round and have angles and bullets deflect, this is well documented from all handgun calibers. I am aware of one instance in which an officers hat brim deflected a 230 gr. .45 ACP FMJ round saving the officer from a gruesome wound and/or a potentially lethal headshot. Stranger things have happened than a bullet deflecting on a skull/headshot.

Arguing stuff like this is really splitting hairs and each person should do their own research on current technology and choose what works well in their gun for their specific conditions and purposes. Remember, accurate shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, and all else is gravy. I'm ok with my choice. Stay safe...

Which is exactly what happened with the Rem UMC 115gr JHP I tested. The range was only ten feet and it did not expand. On the other extreme, the Hornady TAP was too explosive, the jacked separated and the expansion wasn't as good as either the Golden Saber or the 147gr JHP.

This is my close range home protection sidearm. Because the Golden Saber and the 147 JHP held together and expanded to double diameter, I'm sticking with those.

Thanks for sharing your results. Interesting. Those encylopedias have to be a real dense target. I'm guessing hardcover, and glazed paper.

I load the 147gr XTP over 5.0gr Unique. That goes 1110 fps in my Glock 17. QuickLoad calcs that velocity right around 38K lbs-psi so It's a +P level load. Power Pistol would probably get it up to 1150-1175 fps at +P pressures.

I see Buffalo Bore and Doubletap both have some pretty sporty 147gr loads on the market, at 1175 and 1135 fps.

I think it's fair to say the modern high performance 147gr 9mm offerings are a significant step up from 38 Spl ballistics.

I can only add I am glad you are confident in your choice. I do not know where the data came from that you based your decision on but mine came for 30+ years of doing LE work, talking to friends and other LEOs who had done the shootings and getting invites to watch the bullets actually being removed from the body.

Bob

The trend is back toward the 147gr load in the 9mm. With modern bullet design, calling it a "15 shot .38" is a bit silly. Speed and weight mean very little in the grans scheme of things.

For those that carry the 9mm in my agency, we issue the 147gr Federal HST, but this year we have went to the Golden Sabre 147gr.

Unless the Dept. has changed ammo recently, the standard issue for the deputies of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. is the Winchester 9mm SXT 147 grains JHP. That same round also works perfectly in the LASD Swat teams' H&K MP5 submachine guns.

I know of quite a few "good" stops of bad guys by LASD deputies using that issue ammo when they shot accurately. Accuracy is a problem with every peace officer organization, when the deputy or police officer is under extreme life and death stress.


That Win 147 SXT JHP round is what I keep in the magazines of my Beretta 92FS, which was and is the issue weapon for Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept.

Just my two cents.

L.W.

I think ICE is still carrying the Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dot.

As I recall the FBI's testing of the 9mm ammo, only the 147 gr. load had the required penetration in their test media. And that was just barely adequate.
When used in the field, it wasn't popular because it didn't have the explosive effect that the faster 125 gr. class .357 ammo had. So many agenies went to the 115-124 gr. +P, 9mm stuff.
All of the above, the 125 gr. .357/.38 special +P, and the similar 9mm stuff has enough penetration on bad guys in the open. Add extra clothing, and it slows them down/degrades their performance. Put a car door or windshield glass in the way and they do poorly.
The newer 9mm, 147 gr. stuff now appears to open faster or more. That's fine, but you loose penetration. There are no free lunches.
The .40 S&W, with 180 gr. ammo, was an attempt to find an acceptable compromise. But I've noticed that it also has now become more popular with the lighter 150 gr. and even the 135 gr. HP ammo. More tissue destruction, but less penetration.
I like using 2.5 gallon water jugs for my load testing. Water much more closely resembles live tissue for one. There, with water, the standard for penetration is 12 inches. Which just happens to be the lenth of the 2.5 gal sealed water jugs I use.
Shoot that hardball ammo into them and all the 9mm stuff zips right through. But it doesn't disrupt the jug or split the sides much. BTW, the .45 ACP ammo, even the FMJ flat point stuff does too. But use a hollow point, and the results are much different. Splits the jug in a spectacular way. Best of all, the heavier bullets penetrate plenty. In fact, in the FBI tests, the 230 gr. .45 ACP and the milder 180 gr. 10mm loads had the ability to penetrate car doors or windshield glass and still do significant damage. Something no 9mm load has ever done. E

My oldest son has a Springfield 1911 in 45 ACP. He and I did a test using his gun with 230gr FMJ ball ammo and my 9mm with the 115gr WW FMJ in the OP. We shot some old locker doors at 15 feet. The locker doors were two layers of 16 gauge steel, separated by a 5/8" air gap. The 45 ACP deeply dented the first layer of steel but did not penetrate. The 9mm penetrated both layers of steel. So, in my field test, the 9mm penetrates just fine. I would not recommend a car door to stop any 9mm bullet.

Nor will a car door stop a 45 ACP. The window roll up steel will stop many rounds including some 357 mag's

I know, because I have shot many ronds into car and truck doors





The higher the velocity the more steel that can be penetrated. The 9mm expanding bullets fall behind the better 45 bullets in my experience
The XPBbullets in the 45 at 1100 FPS penetrate car doors extremely well

I, too, have shot lots of car doors and windshield glass in years past. What JWP said is true.
BTW, the round nose, or flat point 9mm ammo does no better on human targets than the old .38 Special with round nose lead ammo. The .45 ACP, with the same ammo is only a little better. Hollow point ammo is alot different in both. E

Well boys, I was at a LE convention in Jacksonville about 10 years ago and one of the courses dealt with shooting into and out of cars. About 40 cops participated, and we fired somewhere about 80 to 100 rounds apiece into cars, through side doors, through windshields, side windows, and so forth. About 400-500 shots were fired through the doors.

When we got down to counting the rounds that went through car doors and those that didn't, our totally unscientific tally showed that only about 50% of the bullets of any caliber passed through with the windows rolled up. Fewer than 25% passed through with the windows rolled down. Rolled-down windows defeated rifled slugs about 40% of the time, and buckshot 100% of the time. High-speed 357 SIG bullets fared no better than 45 ACP or 40 S&W or 9mm. It was more or less a crapshoot, depending on what internal frame structures the bullets hit or did not hit.

I would not count on any service caliber JHP handgun bullet stopping a bad guy through a car door. It might could work, and it might could not.

YMMV.

Try the Dixie Slugs Terminator or ICL slug nest time. The former is 730 grains of hard cast heat treated lead alloy and the latter is 870 grains and both are loaded to 1200 FPS. These slugs will out penetrate any other slug out there bar none

Bullet choice is critical in car door penetration in my experience. The 255 grain hard cast +P 45 aACP load by Buffalo Bore at 960 FPS is an excellent penetrator in the the old war horse

You mean all of those highway patrolmen carrying .357 Magnums all those years - they will crack an engine block! - were wrong?!

I may be confusing things, but isn't the reason Clyde Barrow preferred the .30-06 BAR was because it would shoot through a car?

I have notes on better than two dozen OIS's that I have reviewed where the officer's handgun bullet struck the bones of the eye socket or forehead and were deflected, involving 9mm, 38 Special, 357 Mag and SIG, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. I have heard of (but not personally reviewed the cases) of 44 Magnum bullets being likewise deflected, one case of which was related to me by the officer who shot the suspect and saw the "failure" personally. (He put the next 5 bullets into the brain pan, however, so all's well that ends well!) I have heard of such failures happening in the non-OIS realm quite a bit, too.

When people hear about these OIS failures, they almost invariably point at the caliber/bullet/gun in question as the reason for the failure. This is utter nonsense. I know of two agencies that were so dismayed by this phenomenon that they switched to a "more powerful" caliber as a result, at very high cost to the taxpayer.

But people who do this don't take into account two very important facts: 1)all police service caliber handgun bullets are slow and ballistically inferior to rifle bullets, and 2) the bones of the face (particularly the eye sockets) are extremely dense and hard, and are sloped like the armor on the front of a battle tank to deflect injurious blows. If you fire any handgun bullet against these sloping bony surfaces and the angle of incidence is more than a few degrees off perpendicular to the bone surface, the bullet will slide off and tunnel under the skin.

The simple fact is that ALL service caliber handgun bullets are relatively weak missiles, and you have to place your shots into vital structures if you want to stop a felon's violent actions. All manner of circumstances can cause one or two (or even 4) of your bullets to fail to finish the job.

This is why we teach our guys from the Tao of Connor: "Don't shoot your opponent until you think he's dead; shoot him until he thinks he's dead."

No question! Heavy non-JHP bullets will probably do better than JHP's. High velocity 5.7mm bullets will penetrate much better than standard-velocity JHP's.

And you have to keep in mind that LEO's don't have a "bullet choice". They get to shoot what's been issued to them, which will be standard velocity JHP's and which were not chosen for their ability to perforate car doors.

I've edited my earlier post to reflect this realitiy.

Jim, as I understand it the early 357 Magnum rounds were hard-cast bullets at obscenely high velocities and pressures (by current SAAMI standards) which were ostensibly designed to shoot through car doors, as a means of addressing the new-fangled bank robbers' modus operandi (escaping from the crime in cars equipped with heavy steel doors of the day!).

And yes, I had heard the same thing about Barrow's choice of the BAR. Apparently, he was not impressed with the ability of the 45 ACP Thompson's ability to shoot through automotive sheet metal, and he was certainly experienced in that field!

The Thompson indeed did and would shoot through car doors of the era.
The only 357 loads that I have chrono'ed of modern manufacture that will match the speeds of 60's and 70's manufactured 357 ammo is by Buffalo Bore. Most factory loaded 357 ammo today shot out of my 357's send the 158 grainers out in the 1200 FPS range. The Buffalo Bore 158's that I chrono'ed are in the 1400 FPS range. A significant step up IMHO and experience

Yes, a step up indeed! I bought a few boxes of Buffalo Bore's "low flash" 357 Magnum ammo a couple years ago and it's stoutly loaded, all right.

I have about half a case of Super Vel 158 gr 357 Magnum ammo from the early 70's that I shoot a bit of now and then. Out of my 3" M65 it does 1200 fps and out of a 5" 586 it pushes 1400. Fire it in the dark and you're blind for a while!

According to Elmer Keith's writing, the early 357 Mag ammo exceeded even the Super Vel numbers and would shoot a triple-lock 357 MAGNUM revolver loose in relatively short order!