I ran across an ad in our paper today listing a Colt police positive. After talking to the guy, He tells me it is a Police positive special 2nd issue in .38 that has a letter from colt authenticating a refurbishment.

Anyone ever heard of such a thing and does this letter help or hurt the value?

I was just looking for a plinker but this sounds to nice. I know just enough to be dangerous which is why I am here.

Thanks,

The Police Positive is essentially a Detective Special with a longer barrel and service style grips. The snubby Police Positive, in other words, was the original Detective Special. They're very nice guns. If a gun was worked on, it's best that it was worked on by the manufacturer, so it's better than if it was worked on by someone else. Better yet, of course, is if it had never been worked on by anyone after leaving the factory, assuming that it's in good working condition.

These are three of my Colt revolvers. The top one is an Army Special (later to be renamed the Official Police). In the middle is a Police Positive. On the bottom is a Detective Special.

They are nice little small frame guns. If the "38" is 38 Spec. they are not +P compatible. Any refurbishment kills the collector's value on all but the most desirable of guns-and usually those too. The Police Positive was produced in pretty high numbers. I don't know about the 2nd Issue itself. The refurbishment being from Colt's themselves helps a bit, but its still been messed with.

Assuming no real rarity from the 2nd Issue part, I'm guessing $200-300 in today's market depending on how much you want it. You could EASILY get a model 10 Smith and Wesson for $100 more and probably much less than that-one that hadn't been messed with.

You're missing a New Service. heheh

If you can grab it, I think that you will like it. Very smooth Double Action and single action function. And class, style, etc. as well. I would put the price or value a bit higher, I have had a few at my gun show tables and can usually get close to $400.00 or a tad more for a decent, clean shooter grade gun. I consider them to be a much more refined gun than a S&W MOdel 10 and in our part of the world they bring more money. This could be a regional thing.

It is in 38 spl He is asking $425 which is a fair amount above your estimation. I think I will still go look at it ...that is free.

I go to a lot of gunshows in the area. I've looked at quite a few Police Positives of late too, because it seems that they've been in abundance. Colt's are expensive. I don't know why the PP's don't reflect that as much as some other models. I would have bought one awhile back in 32-20. It was in original condition with some good, old-time Colt blue left on it and sharp edges (a good thing with most collector's guns). It was out-of-time though. I even showed the old boys as low-key as I could, even though they wouldn't admit it and looked at me like I was trying to pull something on them. I think it was around the same price range.

If it's a slick gun, even refinished by Colt, it may be worth that. Even if it ain't, if it trips your trigger...I would go look at it too. The one thing I would counsel against is just impulse-buying it if you don't intend to get other handguns. It sounds like a cool little gun, but if you're going to buy one handgun for a variety of reasons, there are better options. The .38 Spec. is tried-and-true and a good round, but not an excellent one. If I was only buying one handgun, I'd want the .357 Magnum any day over the .38-you can still shot 38 Spec's in a .357 btw. Good luck with it-bottom line...I wouldn't let $25 keep me from a gun I wanted with gun and all other prices the way they are.

That they are. The old Colts required far more in the way of skilled hands to put them together right, and Colt used to hire such skilled hands to do that on all their revolvers, which was why S&W eventually beat them out in the police market, i.e., S&W could always undercut their price with their M&P/Model 10, which wasn't nearly as dependent on so much in the way of skilled hands to put them together. Gradually, the old Colt lockwork became something only seen on the Colt Python, always sold at a premium price to a customer base willing to pay it, while their non-premium double action revolvers were redesigned such as not to require so much skilled work to assemble them. By then, however, S&W had already dominated the police market, and Colt couldn't get it back. But those old Police Positives harken back to a time when essentially every Colt was a premium revolver in the class and refinement level of a Python.

Cole, I disagree with you on the +p question. The all-steel revolvers made by Colt for .38 Special are plenty capable of handling +p. The only question is lifespan, but that's the case with modern made, small frame, .38 Specials too. In other words, a regular diet of +p is going to accelerate wear and tear, and shorten a small frame thirty-eight's service life, but it won't cause a catastrophic failure. The whole thing about 1) +p warnings, and 2) +p approval, came about in reaction to the introduction of aluminum alloy framed revolvers. It was never an issue with all-steel revolvers chambered by major manufacturers for .38 Special.

POLICE POSITIVE (SECOND ISSUE)
- similar to Police Positive First Issue, except has 1926 last patent date, serrated top strap, and slightly heavier frame, walnut grips standard. Mfg. 1928-1947.
Grading
100% 98% 95% 90% 80% 70% 60% 50% 40% 30% 20% 10%
$850 $750 $525 $425 $350 $300 $275 $250 $225 $195 $175 $160
Add 15% for nickel finish.

I love my little detective special, and have fed it enought +p to know I can trust it.

I would love to have one of those PPs too. If it's the same quality as my DS, you'll be happy - especially if you were just shopping for a plinker. Todays bullets and powders give you great options, just don't expect it to be something it isn't and you'll be a happy camper!

Thanks Mr Lee.
If I were to run across one it would find a home with me.

One little caveat. There is the Police Positive, which was chambered for the .38 New Police, aka .38 S&W, and the Police Positive SPECIAL, which was chambered for the .38 Special. They are NOT the same, as they take different cartridges, and you need to make sure which it is. The Special has a slightly longer cylinder.

The Detective Special is a short barrel version of the Police Positive Special (the PPS came first) and the original snub nose revolver. All are fine revolvers, and a pre-WW II revolver will often have a very fine trigger action in both DA and SA - assuming that it hasn't gone out of time.

I got 5 Colt Police Positive 38 specials, police surplus from AIM.
I like to cut an inch off the butt of the frame, put a rubber grip from a Colt Agent on them.
I ream out the 6 chambers to 357 mag.
Hodgdon lists 357 mag max load 18 gr LIL'GUN 158 gr. 1100+ fps from this barrel length.
Loads I shoot 26 gr LIL'GUN 158 gr. [take double compression to get it to fit]
This kicks harder than an S&W 29 44 mag with 24 gr H110/240 gr.

Years of this go by, and they still lock up tight.
Great design.

Here's a quote from Massad Ayoob's "Greatest Handguns of the World":

"Back in the '70s, a Colt executive confirmed what contemporary gun writer Jac Weller had written: they had indeed bored out Detective Specials to .357 Magnum and found that they'd go 5,000 rounds without a problem. They just hadn't produced the gun because they didn't think anyone could handle the brutal recoil back then."

Tough little gun, one of my very favorites. But I think I'll stick with .38 Special. :-)

Colt produced the Detective Special in 357 Mag. It was called the "Magnum Carry". I got my wife one and she has it in on the dresser right now. Stainless steel.

The thing to remember is that the older Police Positives have different steel in them. Nothing wrong with shooting +P in a newer, stronger Detective Special.

And nothing wrong with shooting +p in any all-steel revolver in good condition that was originally chambered by Colt or S&W for .38 Special, regardless of date of manufacture. Service life will be slightly reduced, is all.

It would be a fine gun to own but im a Colt collector so im biased. Refurbished and reblued are two different things. Colt offers rebluing and always has/will as long as they are in business. If there were any parts replaced they were factory parts so that is not an issue either way. If it were reblued then that destroyed ant collector valud. Even if Colt did the reblue. Ive seen some good reblue jobs in my day and some of them require a long histort of collecting to notice. As far as a plinker it will plink with the best of them. Colt values will only get higher as time goes on and even a reblue will gain value. Hope this helps some. Its kinda hard to pay too much for a nice Colt as most of them arent being made anymore.

I need to learn how to type...

Another way to look at that is the S&W is fundementally a better design - simpler, more efficient, and capable of being tuned to be the equal of any Colt.

BLASPHEMY!!!

Back in the late 80's I bought 5 of the Police Positives (second issue) that had been surplused by some South American police dept for $65 each. They were beat up, well worn..etc as you might expect. I used them for tackle box / boat guns. Kept a couple in my pickups, and every day basic beaters. Then one day I woke up and realize, that those were still very fine guns. I've managed to replace some of the worst worn parts and they now reside in places of honor amoung my other revolvers. They have handled some of my hottest reloads for 38 Spec with no problems. I love the small size, but they are a handful with hot ammo.

Okay, then I'll double-down on blasphemy.

There are plenty of BIG dollar handguns out there. A guy can spend $5K on a 1911, so the 'too expensive to make' argument doesn't hold water. If the Colt DA designs were superior in any way there would still be some sort of new gun market - they're not, so there isn't.

But, the there's no denying the appeal Colt DA's have with some folks and that's fine. Owning a piece of old time craftsmanship and history are good reasons, IMO.

That's a legitimate way to look at it. I'm also a fan of the old S&Ws. Like you say, tuned up right, they're just as good, as a practical matter, as the old Colts, some say better. But then you could also argue that a $50.00 quarts wristwatch is just as good as a hand assembled Swiss mechanical wristwatch, as it keeps time just as well, if not better.

There's still a new market for hand-assembled Swiss watches.

I got 5 from AIM 10 years ago for destructive test, and then realized I had found treasure.
I have been collecting Colts ever since.
Don't try to re time them without first doing it by the numbers per this book
http://www.amazon.com/Colt-Double-Action-Revolvers-Manual/dp/B000IXMGDS

Thanks Clarkm, I placed an order for one of the books. I have one pistol that is very marginal on lock up and timing. Usually have to rock the hammer back a little a second time to get everything aligned and locked.

This is my simplistic view of how the double action timing works:
The trigger pushes on the hand that pushes on the ejector & ratchet that rotates the cylinder.
But before the hand reaches the ratchet, the trigger pushes on the strut that pushes on the hammer that pushes on the rebound lever that pushes on the tang of the bolt that causes the bolt to pivot and releases the cylinder for rotating.
As the trigger moves back further, the tang of the bolt falls off the cam of the rebound lever, allowing the bolt spring to push the bolt against the cylinder. As the cylinder revolves further the bolt drops into the cylinder slot, locking the cylinder. As the trigger pulls further, the trigger clears the strut and the hammer falls.

My simplistic way is adjusting timing:
a) Shorten the strut.
b) File on the cam on the rebound lever.
c) Bend the tang on the bolt.

My simplistic warning:
The problem that there are lots of constraints, and one can't put material back on an action bar or hand.
So that is why one should follow the directions in the book and go through all the tests to determine exactly what should be done first. If you had a handful of rebound levers and hands, you could go around in circles wasting parts.
New replacement parts are too big and don't work right until fitted.
Existing parts that were fitted at the factory should probably not have any more material removed.

Thanks for everyone's input. I went to look at the PPS Sat morning and it was nice but I decided against it. The asking price was not negotiable and even though it had been reblued by Colt, there was something at the end of the barrel that didn't look right. I am not a collector but if I had bought it and then went to sell it, I would had gotten beaten up because of the reblue.

I did however go the the local gunshow and after much fondling of many revolvers ,I came home with a very nice (but not perfect) original S&W Model 66 no dash with a 4" barrel. Anyone have a set of carbide dies they need to part with?

Thanks again,

I was going to that gunshow yesterday but came down with the flu. Better today, but not until too late to head down. Glad to hear you scratched your itch. Lots of guys like the old Colts and indeed they were fine weapons in their day. Lots of them are wore out though. If you didn't feel right about it, it probably wasn't right.