Seems like there have been a lot of guys getting in to people and animals getting shot... can any of you guys share your input if you have seen the different calibers in similar situations and how much of a difference there is? I personally am a fan of larger calibers (45 acp) but often carry a 9. My roommate thinks the 9 will stop anything. Another thinks the .380 is plenty. Granted shot placement is key, but for you guys who have experience out there, how much of a difference is there in the larger calibers such as the .45 and 10mm over the .380 and 9mm?

I have shot deer and pigs with the 9mm and the 45 ACP and IME the 45 is higher on the food chain.. The 380 I have only tested and found it to be lacking, so much so that I am not interested in shooting a pig or deer with one

Like she always says
"Bigger is always Better!"

But a 10mm will smack as hard or harder then the slower .45.
So it's speed AND weight that count
( After placement ... no bullet worth a nickle works when you miss )
A hit with a .380 ( or .22 ) is better than every miss with .50 AE!

what you want is a Beretta Jetfire in 22 short.

for personal defense 9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, .45ACP with good bullets are not worlds apart.

I once shot a small, 100+/- lbs. whitetail doe with a 9mm and 124(?) grain Winchester Black Talon factory load. Despite the hype, I had expected a "broadhead type wound", I was not impressed by that bullet's performance during the post-mortem inspection. In contrast, I have shot several like sized deer with the 357 Magnum, 158 grain, and 44 Special, 200/225/240 grain, with much more impressive results and no need for a follow up shot.

While I used to keep a S&W 39 around for protection, I now keep a S&W 4006 for that purpose.

Jeff

Any well placed shot will get the job done but you have a greater margin for error with bigger calibers IMHO.

I carry a 9 as it just fits with my carry parameters for SD but when hunting carry a rifle.

There is no "final" authority in handgun calibers AFAIAC as all are a compromise in one fashion or another. As I said, it is all about shot placement followed by ACCURATE volume of fire. One good hit is better than all the misses or marginal hits in the world.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

I remember WAAAYYY back when the Canadian military was chosing a side arm caliber... 60's 50's?

They hung "bullet proof " jackets of the day on 2 X 4 's and shot 'em
Remember bullets then were lead or jacketed, sometimes a shallow hp or semi-jacketed. Period.

The result of their test?
Hands down 9 mm.

All other rounds would not penitrate reliably.
9mm NATO ball would through and through the wood.

Expand? probably not.
But it was speed that punched them through.

I went out and bought my first 9mm A browning HiPower.

Never shot anything alive with a handgun, but my personal minimum is 9mm Parabellum/.38 Special. There's plenty of data out there from police shootings that a properly designed 9mm Parabellum or .38 Special from a three inch or longer barrel is very effective on bad guys. There is something confidence inspiring, however, about cartridges that start with a four.

Have had to shoot lame/sick farm stock and a few deer hung up and dying in fences and such, agreed its all about placement, but the old 45 ACP with +P 230 gn FMJ-FP's has ended the suffering ASAP.

Gunner

What ever you can handle properly.

38Spl, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 Auto, 45 Colt


In that order.

Nothing less

Snake

"Average number of rounds until incapacitation" seems a worthless measure to me, since if you fire three or four rounds, you still don't know if they would have dropped just as fast with one round only, as few people will shoot, wait, then shoot again. The results bear this out, since the outcome is irregular based on caliber, i.e., there's no clear progression in this measure based on caliber and power.

Far more important a figure, it seems to me, is the one shot stop statistic. This makes logical sense based on the results, as the progression matches caliber and power progression. This is the stat I'd place most importance on when choosing a caliber. Naturally, however, multiple hits will magnify the effect by some degree, so are to be recommended in a self-defense shooting, but I'm just speaking of which stat is most information packed for our purposes.

After 100-years the lack of consensus is the most telling.

On humans I�ve never seen an actual difference in either effect or wound channels on human targets. On small game I have seen some differences, but we�re talking game that is at least 50% the size of a human, so not the best benchmark.

Full Disclosure: I've only owned and carried handguns for 1 year. That said...

When I went shopping for handguns, I had done a great volume of internet research. Naturally, I discovered that the vast majority of the everyday carry crowd have never shot another person. So, 99% of people's opinions are based on information available to all of us. That's important.

I also talked to the armorer/instructor for the county sheriff's office and a few other LEOs. To a man, they said that when they advise friends and family on which gun to buy they emphasize a gun that the person will actually take with them when they leave the house and carry in a manner that is readily accessible.

Based on their own training and experiences and talking with their fellow LEOs. They rarely (I can't remember exact numbers) respond to the scene of a shooting and find a dead person who (1) had a gun, and (2) got it out and shot it.

The third most important factor (behind "Bring your gun" and "Keep it accessible") was accuracy. Most of what I read and learned from LEOs indicates that any hit on the bad guy, regardless of whether it kills him/incapacitates him/just wings him/whatever results in the good guy living.

So, statistically, if you (1) bring a gun, (2) get it into action, and (3) hit something, you are going to walk away. Sure, if you can do numbers 1-3 with a larger, more powerful cartridge, your chances go up even further.

So, it appears most day-to-day citizen gun battles will be decided primarily by factors 1 and 2. To a lesser extent number 3. That explains why LEOs advise their friends and families based on 1 and 2--too many people stop carrying after a few months because their gun is too heavy, too bulky, or is a pain to have to strap on for a trip to the store. Guns get left home or are carried in a manner where they cannot be used quickly. The actual cartridge fired doesn't come into play frequently enough for it to be the primary consideration

Based on that logic (flawed or not), I bought a 4" 1911 .45 ACP. I carry it when I am not working, but sometimes even to work. I go to court a lot and am forever having to put my gun on and take it off. I also bought a Sig P238 .380. I carry that gun mostly at work because of the ease of carrying it. Having these two guns to choose from has resulted in me always having an option that works for me, and consequently, I always have my gun with me, and I carry it in an accessible manner.

Is the .380 a great choice for a self-defense cartridge. Maybe not a "great" choice, but based on the scads of data out there, I am convinced it's at least a "good" choice. More importantly to me is that I like that particular model--it feels good in my hand and I can shoot it better than other pocket pistols that I tried (two Rugers and a KelTec).

So, when anyone asks me for my two cents, that's what I tell them. I've only been carrying for a year and have never shot anyone. But since pretty much everybody is in the same boat--having to rely on other people's data--I am satisfied that I have made a good choice for me. YMMV.

Carry on!

Very interesting data there. Thanks for sharing.

I see nothing unreasonable about your take on the matter.

I've shot quite a few deer and hogs with a variety of different handguns. Not so much as a "test", but because we have been over-run with hogs in this area and I tend to use whatever is on my hip when they appear. These include the .22LR, .30 Mauser, .32-20, .380, 9mm, .38 Spl, .357, 10mm, .41 Mag, .44 Spl, .44 Mag, .45 ACP and .45 Colt. There have been a few others, but I have taken at least 3 animals with each of these and can make a fair judgement on their effect rather than trying to judge from a single kill.

In my experience a heavier, bigger bore round is generally more effective than a smaller one. There does seem to be a "threshold" of velosity where a bullet is clearly more effective.....somewhere around 1100 fps......where the "shock" of a bullet strike is much more evident. Not nessisarily more "deadly" as the only reliable way to "kill" is with deep penetration and damage to vital organs.....but there is definitely more reaction from the animal and often a "quicker" kill.

Oddly, once this velosity level is reached more velosity just doesn't seem to be any more effective. A 240 grain .44 caliber bullet at 1200 fps is no more "deadly" than the same bullet at 1400 fps.

The .22LR, .30 Mauser, .380, and 9mm are very marginal for heavier game.....primarilly due to improper bullet design.....and must be carefully placed. The .357 is beginning to reach the right level of performance and surprisingly so is the .32-20. I feel this is because of fairly high velosity combined with proper hard-cast bullets.

Of course the "best" rounds are of larger bore size, heavy bullets and good velosity.......such as the 10mm, .41 Mag and .44 Mag. These are the "cream of the crop" and hit hard and penetrate reliably.

The remaining rounds, .44 Spl, .45 ACP and .45 Colt do not have the velosity to "shock" the animal as much but rely on bullet weight and design to penetrate and kill. It may not be as dramatic, but it is deadly. The .45 ACP is the most diffecult to achieve this due to most bullets being full jacketed or too light in weight. It can be effective but trails the .44 Spl and .45 Colt.

Others experiences may be different, but I feel if you insist on using light weigh, high velosity bullets of smaller caliber......sooner or later you will run into problems.

I love the 9mm but the biggest difference between the small cal compared to the 45 or 44 is it has to expand to catch up, where the bigger bullet doesn't really have to expand to get the same effect. Bullet diameter , weight and mass does make a difference when it comes to stopping power in a handgun.

I totally agree.....I have said before and maintain that I am a big caliber fan....I especially like the .45ACP.....but I am simply not going to carry my Glock or 1911 everywhere I go....Its not comfortable and is heavy. I purchased a Ruger LCP .380 auto several months back....bought a Kel Tec belt clip (like a pocket knife clip) and modified it a little to fit my LCP. I carry it in my front pocket like a pocket knife. It feels like a cell phone and therfore I have it on me 24/7 no matter where I go, unless the law prohibits it. I often even forget I have it on me which I never could when having a few pounds hanging off my side

Thanks for the post waders, I am a life long gun owner and CC permit holder and you hit the nail on the head

My favorite carry 45 ACP is my Glock 36 and i carry it on a regular basis when carrying a 45 . It isn't all that heavy so i can carry all day without hardy knowing i have it on. I carry mostly in a Fobus Paddle Holster with one extra Mag. I sometimes carry inside the belt but i find outside carry much more comfortable regardless of the type or brand inside the belt holster i use. My carry load is the Speer 230 gr Gold Dot

I have a buddy that starting CCW'ing a G36 a couple of years back.
He loves it!

If you are in the Market for a Glock and don't care if the magazine won't hold a halve a box of ammo, then give the 36 a look . It is one of the best Glocks for conceal carry . 6 in the mag and one in the tube.

A real difference between a self defense weapon and a gun to be used on game is that the goals are not the same. The purpose of a self defense gun is to make your opponent quit what he is doing a break off the comfrontation. Killing him is a secondary benifit.

Most of the time (probably in excess of 80%) you can end a self defense event with a starter pistol. As soon as they hear the "pop" they are headed for other places. This is very different than a law enforcement situation where a true "gun fight" might take place. Criminals, in general, are not that brave.....or crazy.

The idea of "stopping power" is over-rated. All you need do is get their attention and the fight is over......most of the time.

With game it is a different ballgame. You need to hit hard and avoid the animal running off to possibly die later. A good blood trail and quick stop is MUCH more important than it is (most of the time) in a self defense encounter. Killing isn't good enough if you can't find the animal after the shot.

Don't know about where you live, but here, we seldom trail up a wounded mugger and eat him......making him quit and run a way is good enough.

There is MUCH truth in your post Sir.

Very true

I've said before, the stats I want to see are for one-shot cease & desist.

The link I posted has that data in it...... http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

That's an interesting report.

MM

...very interesting report....but I can not agree with his Conclusion because it flies right in the face of his Incapacitation Index...

Conclusion

"This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important."

Yet two paragraphs before he has a chart showing the "Failure to incapacitate" that shows a WIDE difference in calibers...

He says the exact same thing as M&S but in reverse.

Bob

I'd like to make a small observation on the "stopping" vs "hunting" thing. If we're going to keep a somewhat apples to apples comparison we don't compare defending ourselves from people to hunting deer but rather to dangerous animails like bear or Cape Buffalo. In both cases you want the threat to your well being stopped before any other consideration. Now I'm not suggesting we have a 1 to 1 comaparison here but, IMHO anyway, a .40/10mm/.44/.45 is certainly closer to the intent of .416/.458 than a .380 or 9mm.

Can (indeed has) a 9mm dropped many a dirtbag? Certainly. Can (indeed has) .30 caliber and even less dropped the largest of African dangerous game? Absolutely. But when it's my (admittedly a bit too ample at the moment) arse on the line I'll hedge whatever bets wherever I can. Whether it be a drugged up douchebag or surly 1/2 ton of pissed off buff inbound I prefer my caliber start with 4.

Good point.

Wounding may or may not stop an aggressor, finality will for sure and certain

Boococky, you nailed it. I know of Mr. Ellifritz through my dealings with OPOTA, and he's a solid instructor, an experienced street cop, and a smart man. Anybody who wants to debate "stopping power" need do nothing more than read his paper, particularly this quote:

"Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!"

True dat!

you know you are gonna hurt trh's feelers......

tuff titty...

The most important points made by the data in the article were to hit them in the head or torso at least twice, and, if you use a caliber from .38 special up, the percentage of people not incapacitated is bascially the same, except for the .357 and centerfire rifle.

Too bad an M1A1 won't fit in my back pocket, Doc. I'd be set!

Maybe the most important conclusion to draw & remember................

But for me, I'm still keeping my 45's & 40's.

MM

So am I!!!!!!!

adamrs,
Talk to emergency room people and ambulance people, they may have insight into this stuff.