One of the comments made on the Mousegun thread I started yesterday got me going this morning. JOG pointed out that:





The draw-and-fire drill I did for that photo is one I use a LOT during competition season, but it also comes in handy when I'm evaluating a new pistol or carry rig. I always pistol-train with a shot-timer to "keep me honest". It's not just to keep me sharp for competition, it drives me to focus on my fundamentals. If I'm doing a drill and I'm getting steady times in the 3.0 to 3.2 second range, for example, and suddenly my times start to run in the 3.8 to 4.0 second range, I know I'm [bleep]' something up. I review my fundamentals and repeat until my times get back to where they should be, or better.

In this case, I wanted to know how I could expect to perform with a new shoulder holster rig from Galco. I usually carry my PM9 in a pocket holster (which is SLOW to draw from, in the 4-5 second range) when I'm carrying in "deep cover" (at work at my clinic or the hospital, in civvy clothes), and I wondered if a shoulder rig would improve my times. (It did.) So I practiced at home, dry-firing, until I felt I had the mechanics of the drawstroke down, then I went to the range to test it with a timer and live fire. At first my times were in the 4's, but after a couple of mags I was down to consistent 2.8-3.2 second times. Honest 3's, in other words. I can live with that.

Knowing what your rig will allow you to do will help you determine whether you're going to use that rig for serious carry.

If I'm using a kydex IDPA-legal holster (most of my kydex retain well enough to work for CCW, by the way) I can get my shots off and hit the -0 ring or A-zone at three yards in about 1 to 1.2 seconds. A leather holster, or increasing the range to 5 yards, increases that to about 1.5 seconds. A tac holster with a Level 3 retention system goes about 2 seconds, but I've used some holsters that made breaking the 3-second mark impossible. My SWAT team issued a thigh holster for our SIG's that was a bitch to draw out of, but I didn't know how bad it was until I used a timer... 4-5 second draw-and-fires! I switched out the rig for my own Safariland and got back down to the sub-3 second times I felt I needed for safe operation.

I wish I had a dollar for every guy who's told me that using a timer is of no value, and being able to draw and fire quickly is for trick shooters only. When actually put up against a shot timer, most of these scoffers are hard-pressed to draw from a belt holster and put a single round on target in under 7 seconds. Those kinds of times may get a fellow killed if the SHTF and he needs to defend your life.

We don't all have to be Quickdraw McGraw, but the stats about defensive shooting indicate you'd better be able to finish the fight in under 4-5 seconds if you want to survive. Now, if it takes you 4 seconds to clear leather with your CCW piece, you might be a bit behind on the curve. If you can't draw and fire fast, you'd best up your situational awareness and make sure you get your gun out of your $300 custom holster well before the balloon goes up.

Learning what your gear and skill can do in real time is invaluable information, and a shot timer can give that to you. I advise any handgunner who desires to be skilled with his arms to invest in a shot timer and some cheap training ammo.

Shooting without a timer is the same as running an unknown distance, in an unknown amount of time. It doesn't do a [bleep] thing for you.


Happy Easter,
Travis

Damn. You said it better in one sentence than I did in a whole post.

Drink more, think less.

Hey, why is your group so schitty?


Travis

I was gonna post this over in the other thread and am glad you started this one instead. Too me, sending much if any time with a timer is akin to a a hunter who hunts thick woods spending time at a bench worrying about whether his rifle shoots 1" groups or 1.5" groups. That bench and small groups will have little to nothing to do with his success.

Just don't think knowing the precise time it took me to draw and fire is all that important in real life. If you practice, practice, practice your times will get faster, timer or not, and you don't need a timer to know that. YMMV.

CB

I know, I'm ashamed... fortunately, my newfound turdlike status makes this easier to bear up under!

Chris, you will get NO argument from me as to the value of practice and more practice. But as I wrote in the OP, it's not "precise times" that matter. But using a timer helps you perceive trends faster, so you can correct a mistake before it gets ingrained in your muscle memory.

I do not agree with that at all. If you are not using a timer, you will go stagnant as a shooter.

Same goes for runners, drivers ect...


Travis

Yes, schitty practice is always better than no practice. But not by much.


Travis

Important on a competitive/professional basis but not for Joe Blow shooters, runner or driver. I'm not out measuring my breaking distance to a stop sign, timing how long it takes to get to the store, or caring whether or not I run an 8 min mile or 8 min plus 10 sec. I'm not a competitive/professional runner, driver or even shooter for that matter. Most of us aren't.

I'm a recreational shooter whose gun may be called on for defence and as such it's only prudent that I do some practice in that area. But most don't spend more than a couple percentage points of their shooting time practicing tactics. Thus IMO the timer has limited value for the majority.

CB

The difference is that your defensive pistol is not something you use every day, like your car or your running shoes. It's EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT.

And if you don't train with your emergency equipment, you won't be able to use it very well when an emergency occurs. Don't take my word for it: look at the regulators for hospitals and EMS. We have to train with our equipment regularly, because research has shown that people who don't train have really schitty outcomes when the real thing happens.

Don't take my word for it. Look at the people who run SWAT teams. They make their guys train (with timers, my gosh!!!) because they've found that guys who train with timers do pretty well in real shooting situations, whereas guys who just loaf and say they don't need to use timers tend to do pretty schitty by comparison.

The take-home message is that if you're carrying a pistol for defense, you have no idea how well you can use it unless you measure yourself against some real standards. The only standards for pistol shooting are time and accuracy. Unless you use a timer, you're only getting half the picture.

I understand that you feel it is a "splitting of hairs" form of measurement. I can tell you from experience it is not. You can take a shooter that is drawing and firing one shot, center mass from 7 seconds, to 3 seconds very, very quickly. But only with a timer.




Travis

Really? What in the world did we do before the days on cheap electronics? Surprised anyone ever got a gun out of their holster. Heck, BG's don't use timers and since it's takes 7 seconds I don't need a gun. I can be outta range before they even get their gun out.

I hear where you are coming from, you think timers are vital and with some shooters they are but only have basic fundamentals are learned which will get them most of the way there. A helluva lot of shooters who own a defensive firearms would hoot, hollar and high five if they pull and hit a man sized target with half their shots, a timer ain't gonna do squat for them. I in no way believe that you can't get a shooter from 7 to 3 seconds or less without a timer. It's been done for decades where as timers are fairly new on the scene outside competitive shoots. I've never used one and I'd bet the band I could beat those times, 3 seconds is a hell of a long time. I'll admit I could be wrong a timer could be of more value than I think. But most shooters are so far away from needing one it's not funny. Me included.

CB

Police qualifications are timed for a reason. If someone can't beat x accuracy at y distance in z time, s/he shouldn't be in the occupation.

We use targets to measure accuracy. We use timers to determine speed. Why measure half of the variables when you can measure both? Using targets in conjunction with timers teaches the best way to blend speed and accuracy. If an extra tenth of a second per shot gives a person substantially better accuracy, then it is better to take the extra tenth. If not, he could be shooting faster.

Back in the day, timers were expensive, so they were not in everyday use. Now, you can buy a timer app for a smart phone. I am still using a PACT timer from 1986, so I guess I have amortized the cost.

If some people suck, that is not an excuse to not attempt to develop our true potential.

Added:

I see I plagiarized Doc on one point.

I am starting to think you have never worked with or trained a new shooter. But I am glad you are saving the $90.00 and that you enjoy shooting to half your potential, regardless.

In regards to your history lesson, there have been stop watches and turning targets for a long, long, long time.

Travis

I am going to tie this thread into the mouse gun thread. I don't carry mouseguns anymore. But, about 25 years ago, I regularly carried a Beretta 21A .22 LR stoked with Stingers and backed up by 2 spare magazines. I regularly shot about 100 Stingers a week at the end of training with other guns. It had minimal recoil and I could empty the magazine in under 2 seconds with great neck/face accuracy. I don't recall my splits between shots, but I could run it just about as fast as a race gun, and good center mass hits at 50 feet were not a problem. Now, if forced to carry a mousegun today, I probably would test a .380 against those standards and decide based upon objective criteria what would be best. If accuracy on the .380 sucked and splits were much slower, after retraining, I maybe would take a 21A over a Kel Tec P3AT. Only a target and a timer would give me good data.

I think someone is having a hard time reading my sarcasm today.

As for half my potential I think this is the main sticking point in our discussion. For argument's sake let's say a 5 sec draw/fire is bad (and yes, that's horrid), 1 sec is very good. Can a timer help get someone from 1.5 down to 1? Yes, probably helps immensely. But you seem to indicate that someone can't get even close to 1.5 without one. Now it is entirely possible that I'm not reading your sarcasm or that you inflating numbers to make a point and I'm missin it. But most shooters won't ever get to the point where they need to be worrying about fractions of a second.

I think what we have here is a shooter that takes SD and tactics more towards the professional end and another shooter that takes SD and tactics more towards the John Q. Public end. The shooter towards the more professional end (Yes, that's you) is probably better at tactics and training but in some ways may be overkill for the majority of shooters. I just don't think that the average CIVILIAN needs to go to any extremes to be REASONABLY (big key word here) prepared for what may come his/her way. If I had to guess I'd say what you think is reasonable and what I think is reasonable is pretty far apart. Most of us aren't Swat and we aren't LEO's and we aren't Military so comparisons to such don't apply. IMHO, of coarse.

CB

I�ve never claimed to be he sharpest tool in the shed, but the benefit of an electronic shot timer (EST) as a training tool and teaching aid was immediately obvious to me as a budding firearms instructor back in the day. Like reactive targets, EST's are one of the best training tools for the shooter and/or instructor.

In 1982 I bought the first commercially viable EST (Ser # 673) which was no small expenditure at the time �. about $125 if I recall correctly. It has NO �functions� per se, just a record of the last shot fired after the start tone. But, it served it purpose very well.

The value of an EST for competition is undeniable, but there has developed over time an unusual emphasis on �speed� with regards to defensive training. And while I wouldn�t dare to argue that �time� isn�t relevant in a gunfight, it�s not as relevant as you might think.

Competition is a great tool, but no discipline that I�m aware of penalizes the shooter to any realistic degree for lack of accuracy. This is unfortunate in that competition is always demanding that you SHOOT in a hurry, whereas the real world demands that you HIT in a hurry. It�s amazing to me how many folks can�t appreciate the priority in those competing interest.

Anyway, an EST is great tool, just don�t become a slave to it and if you put measured performance in it�s proper context you�ll likely be better prepared for a gunfight as long as your �times� remain a means to an end � not an end in itself.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Run without a timer? Difficult to train. Run with a timer? Easier to train.

LEO and military means nothing. Plenty of "non-professional" IDPA shooters go out every month and kick ass. Guys are serious enough to buy Milt Sparks leather, and some $1,100.00 1911, but don't shoot with a timer. They are wasting their time. They'll never be good.




Travis

Better not introduce timers to your girlfriend(s), the truth may come out.


Have never shot with a timer but now would like to..

Hate to say this brother but your the one arguing for the sake of arguing, I was trying to be civil and help you see past your nose that not everybody wants or needs to count fractions of a second. You used SWAT and LEO and now you go to IDPA shooters with expensive leather and $1,100 1911s and are having a hard time seeing past a very small group of shooters. What the hell does any of that have to do with the average or even above average CIVILIAN shooter? Not a dang thing.

Now I'm sure someone will get on here and post about the benefits of a timer for John Q. Public, I'll be glad to listen and they may prove to be right. But your arguments have so little bearing to the general public as to be irrelevant. What's good for professionals and competitive shooters isn't necessarily required for part time folk.

Have a nice day
CB

That only makes sense if the "professionals" are going up against worse people than the "amateurs," which is a huge assumption. Criminals are criminals because they make a living doing it, and they generally pick non-police for targets. Furthermore, the police work with a certain level of stress that allows them to perform when it hits the fan. So, the average non-police officer should work harder to perform under life threatening conditions, and should induce stress when training with firearms for self defense purposes.

My father is one of those who thinks that criminals are going to run away when he pulls out his P3AT. I rate his survivability as "poor" against a hardened criminal. I am glad he bugged out well in advance of Katrina.

Continue to not shoot well and have a nice day yourself.


Travis

A shot timer can do one of two things, it can either make you hurry up slowly (kind of like what Wyatt Earp said wins gunfights) or it can make you rush and do things wrong.
The first is a truly good thing, the second can be a good thing too as long as you make the corrections needed to do it right, or it makes you realize that under pressure (the timer can and does create pressure) you tend to make mistakes and need to go back to practicing the basics more.

A few rounds over a timer will never replace constant practice to develop a smooth and quick draw and first shot and no one is suggesting that at all. What the timer does do is let you know how well those skills are ingrained into you (especially if you have someone else running the timer)when you do have to hurry.

There are no disadvantages to shooting with a timer.


Travis

Agreed.

Chris,
Cheyenne hit the nail on the benefits of a timer for the "average" -non-pro-non-competitive shooter:


....if you look at any of the early pics of Cooper---in probably a third of them, he's wearing a lanyard around his neck with a whistle on one end and a stop watch on the other. While he incorporated it during the early days of IPSC, it was a mainstay during his classes. Why? A timer (either digital or analog) provides something that no amount of practicing alone can provide-----pressure. A timer does more to simulate "combat" than all of the scenario-driven gimmicks that a shooter can utilize. Shooting from cover, shooting at humanoid targets sans scoring rings, performing tactical reloads, etc. etc.----none of those things come close to replicating the "pucker factor" of facing an armed adversary as much as a simple timing device. Even when shooting on a range by yourself---a timer adds an element of pressure. Obviously there are times when shooting w/o a timer is called for. Often it's good to start and finish practicing with untimed fire shooting for sheer accuracy where your total concentration is on sight alignment and trigger manipulation. However, even a recreational shooter just wanting to feel adequate with their night-stand handgun needs see how their skill degrades with pressure. Short of armed conflict, that can pretty much only be achieved with a timing device of some sort. Granted, they don't care about shaving a 1/2 second off their time----but until they've experienced the vast difference in their performance with pressure, they're .....well.....shooting in the dark and unconsciously incompetent.

I haven't practiced with a timer but inted too. Downloaded the surefire app for my iphone, be interesting to see how well it works. I have no trouble seeing the benefit of the stress induced by a timer. To quote the instructor in my CHP class, "When that timer beeps, every brain cell you have goes straight out your butt."

There is more to it than stress. A timer will force you to be smooth, unless you simply don't give a schit what the time is.

A timer also hammers home the fact you can't miss fast enough.

You will learn more in 20 shots from the holster with a timer, than you will in a 150 shots with out.

One shot, from the holster. Start at the 7.


Beep...


Travis

Part of my brain acknowledges that using a timer is beneficial, but that's not my main reason for using one - I use a timer because it's fun.

No argument there. Especially when shooting with friends.


Travis

Yep. Until you get used to that timer beep. You condition your brain cells to get to work after a bit. I've had some very sharp, very clear focus on complex shooting problems after the beep, as if the rest of the world is moving in slow motion and I'm moving at normal speed.

That is the timed-fire drill I do most often: single shots, from the holster. After that, it's double-taps from the holster, or one shot each on two targets from the holster.

A key point for those new to using a shot timer: re-holstering is not a timed event! Take your time settling your pistol back into the holster! Use the time/space between timed drills to work on your mental imagery, your focus.

People sometimes get wound up and holster too fast, which can lead to a finger getting caught in the triggerguard and a KABOOM happening while your muzzle is pointed directly at your azz. I've seen it happen.

I fully support the use of a timer. Having said that, I don't own one...have to fix that. However, I do occasionally shoot falling plates side by side with another shooter and that is a pretty good exercise as well.

I do the same thing.

If somebody has access to a dueling tree, it is fun to have shooters engage one side of three plates. Have them run that about 5 times calling out their times at the end of each round. Tell them round six is for time.

Goes from BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! to CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! real quick.


Travis

Very. And I find times will typically get worse when two shooters go against each other. As opposed to a single shooter and the timer.

The pressure....


Travis

Sounds like I ought to purchase a shot timer-I have never shot with one, period.

Like someone mentioned earlier, if you have a smart phone you can probably download a timer app. I downloaded one the other day for Android called IPSC Shot Timer that can calibrated for dry fire.

This is an interesting thread. I'm trying to figure out how many of us civilians will be involved in a gun fight at the OK Corral.

Do you carry?


Travis

Heck, with the odds being what they are, he doesn't even need a gun unless he is a "sportsman," and then he only needs a "sporting" firearm. I think there is an advocacy group that touts the same principle.

I am so slow all I need is a hour glass for a shot timer....maybe a sun dial would be better

Yep I have a friend I nick named ...........................you guessed it "crackshot". He said the bullet through the cheek wasn't as bad as the cleaning....

I see plenty of comments in support of using a timer where the poster equates gaming with combat performance. Col Cooper must be rolling over in his grave.

It is helpful to time drawing from concealment to first shot so that one understands just how long it takes to get the roscoe into action. And the timer adds a little stress. But quick-draw is gaming mentality partially spawned by 50's Hollywood movie fakery and has little place in combat IMHO.

Lots of folks carry concealed nowadays and they do need to practice bringing their weapon to bear without shooting themselves, bystanders, etc. And a little stress created by a timer can help work out the kinks.

I have a fire extinguisher in each of my vehicles. I saw a guy by the side of the road in about 1985 with his beautiful classic muscle car's engine on fire, and a bunch of people just standing around helpless watching this gorgeous car as it was reduced to scrap metal in less than 2 minutes.

I stopped trying to figure out how many of us civilian drivers have to put out car fires at that time and decided I'd better A) start carrying fire extinguishers in my vehicles and B) know how to use them.

There's a big difference between learning "quick-draw" as a competitive sport, and learning how to draw your personal defensive pistol for a rapid presentation in a defensive scenario. The problem is that most CCW carriers have never really tested themselves in the latter skill.

And that's the beauty of having your very own personal shot timer. You can test your skills and equipment and work on improving them on your own time, without engaging in shooting contests that have a competitive aspect if that bothers you.

It's not about competing against another good guy. It's all about making yourself ready for the Bad Guy.

That's all I'm saying here, and all I've been saying since the OP. In my opinion, every self-aware and self-critical defensive shooter should have a shot timer and use it. It's like balancing your checkbook or changing the batteries in your home's smoke detectors.

Since this thread was an expansion on the mouse gun thread, I'm waiting for a front pocket guy to post times from a sitting position.

Now there is something I know how to use! I have used the mine on 3 vehicles and those people were darn glad I had one. Prior to that I watched a motorhome burn down to the frame.

Well here's where we are going to disagree. Unless you are in the cop business, your "defensive scenario" should be to get your butt out of there. If you are drawing your weapon, it should be because you've determined that somebody needs to die. Anything less will get you killed.

Nope. You'll get killed in a hurry if you think you can magically react to a surprise situation. That's the reason situational awareness is taught. IMHO, if you're relying on your ninja reflexes - you're toast. The average person carrying concealed MUST use their brain first and foremost otherwise their pop gun is of no use. Quick draw is a gamer's method of getting killed.

I think the timer is useful to help us realize how slow we are, and then hopefully we will use our heads first to get us out of dangerous situations.

I was asking our resident feminist.


Travis

I think timing yourself, or using a heart rate monitor when you run is only for competitive sport. It was spawned in the 70's.



Travis

Only in the woods or at the range.

Yup, that's me guilty as charged.

Oh.


Travis

I don't believe I've ever written, said, or implied that situational awareness is not the first priority.



Well, I tried to answer that, but you either can't or won't understand my point, so I'm done discussing this with you.

CCP? Check.

Milt Sparks leather? Check.

$1,300.00 1911? Check.

Timer? Ummm... I don't need that. They cost a whopping $89.00.


Travis

89 bucks?
That's like one box of 45 ACP these days?

Buy a Dillon. But then you'll need a chronograph.

Or, you can be one of those reloaders that reload without a chronograph. It will go well with your timer deficiency...


Travis

That's mean.

It was typed with love.


Travis

It's ok to reload without a chrono if you have a buddy that let's you borrow his.

Mazel Tov...



Travis

I've got no problem with the idea that a timer is valuable tool for learning to shoot under pressure. Heck, in the hunting fields that's also a valuable skill.
I do have a bone to pick with those types of competition that are decided by who shot the fastest and made all of his center mass hits however. Frankly, that's a bad habit for a defensive shooter. It seems that lots of bad guys get themselves wired up on their favorite chemical(s) before heading out to do bad things and some of those can be very hard to stop. Therefore, I like to practice speed shooting that involves multiple targets. No "dump the magazine into center mass" stuff.
I'm not in favor of this philosophy of always plan on running either. Sure, if you can see it coming and avoid it, fine. But, if you find yourself in it, you sometimes need to act right now while they don't expect it.
BTW, alot of bad guys are really lousy shots. That's why we don't loose alot more cops. Even at 10 ft. ranges, they often miss. So you can survive such things. A surprising number of people do. E

What sport are you talking about specifically? IDPA and IPSC involve multiple targets. PPC is not a speed event, it only has a time limit.


Travis

Anything that meets the critera that I mention.
The other thing I've noticed is too much emphasis on speed and one shoots too fast while under real stress. To slow down a guy who is practicing, I prefer to shoot a new target with each round. Not even double taps. Too easy to go from trying to shoot twice to four-six rounds. Not good to run out of ammo with the bad guy still on his feet. E

So if the sport you described were to exist, you would not approve?



Travis

That's correct. Anything in the way of practice that detracts from what's needed to help me stay alive. E

Gus? Is that you in there? Gus? Gus?

If anybody comes up with a sport that involves just shooting big toes quickly, I will be livid.


Travis

I shot mine off when I was in grade school...

They call them "big toes" in Idaho?


Travis

I can't remember. You should see my limp-it is really a sight.

This thread is hilarious.

I keep checking in for a good laugh.