I've always run the same loads in my short (2.5") and long (6") .357s. 2400 or h110 for all out. Universal for plinking.

I've seen short barrel loads designed to reduce flash/blast, but what if I want maximum performance in a short barreled .357 revolver and don't mind noise and flash?

Ella

Ella, I dont reload, but I too have a 2 1/2 barrel 686. I shoot store bought 357 and 38s through mine, if the flash and noise doesnt bother you, I see no reason to pay extra for a reduced 357 loads. If you were going to do that, you might as well just shoot 38 standard pressure, or 38 +p loads in your Snubby ! I think alot of peaple want a magic 357 load, that has no recoil, flash, or noise, ive not seen 1 yet. So if I were you, id try to keep my loads simple. That way, there not alot of site adjustment needed, or trying to figure out the poa and poi, for all the differant loads that are available out there. Thats just my way of thinking.

If you're happy with the loads you're currently using, don't go changin'.

Buffalo Bore makes a "reduced flash" 357 Mag load which I bought to try out at a night shoot. It was marginally less bright than my standard 357 Mag Remington Golden Saber loads, but a LOT less bright than my old Super Vel ammo.

But during the daytime, I can't tell one from another, really.

Thanks for your responses.

Just to clarify: I'm wondering what, if anything, I should do to get maximum performance from a shorty .357. Flash and noise are fine. I want speed w. heavy/ish bullets from a shorty.

Does anyone load anything different with a shorty versus a longer barrel?

Ella

Never loaded for a 2.5" .357, but from every reference I've read, the loads fastest in a longer barrel are usually the fastest in a short barrel.

If you don't already have a chronograph I'd get one and continue trying a variety of loads. At that point you can decide for yourself which load has the best compromise between performance, and flash & blast.

Let me attempt to actually answer the question - albeit with my knowledge limited only to factory ammo.

I shoot these buffalo bore loads out of my 6" king cobra. The recoil and flash are noticeably more pronounced compared to "standard" 357 loads. So much so that I was shooting one time with a towel draped over the rest i was using and the flash from the cylinder gap lit the towel on fire. No kidding.

Makes me believe their claimed ballistics - they are a handful to shoot. I can't imagine what they would be like in a snubby.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=102

Hope this helps.

I don't know how much this may help but I checked some 140XTP recently. The load was 1/2 grain under max (18.5 IIRC) usin 296 and CCI mag primers in WW cases. Avg velocity from a 3" 66 was 1175 fps and 1272 from a 4 5/8" Blackhawk.
I think if you want max speed in a snubbie use the powder the manual lists as giving the highest velocity.

Ernie

"the loads fastest in a longer barrel are usually the fastest in a short barrel"

Just wondering if anyone had data to the contrary.

I have a chrony and could run some tests I suppose. I've never bothered clocking handgun loads.

Thanks for the numbers, EWY. I'm looking for a table of data like that, I guess.

Ella

You ought to if you care to preserve your guns and your hands, eyes, etc.

The noise is caused by the high pressure gases escaping from the gun. While flash supressed powders do have a bit less energy than the non supressed powders, the difference isn't much. You might compare loading data between say AA#9 and 2400 or H110. What they do is cut down on muzzle flash, but, if they reduce noise much, I haven't noticed it.
The Speer Short Barrel ammo I've tried is pretty odviously loaded with a faster powder and not near as hot a load as CCI's full power ammo is in my 3 inch Smith.
So, from what I've seen, it is possible to have nearly full power, reduced flash ammo. E

And occasionally factory ammo (and handloads) aren't as fast as they're supposed to be, so in addition to safety the chrono helps make sure you're getting your money's worth.

Thanks for the solicitude. I work up loads and don't push the envelope. (And I can't remember when I last bought factory ammo for a revolver.) It has seemed to work out just fine.

Anyone else run the same load in two barrel lengths?

Ella

For maximum loads in the .357 Mag., I don't think you'll do much better than H110. WW296 is the same powder or at least that is conventional wisdom. I always use data for the specific powder, but that's what everybody has always said. 2400 and 4227 would be next-tier powders, IMO, with possibly Blue Dot thrown in. Blue Dot, 110 and 296 will all produce spectacular light displays if touched off at night. 2400, not so much. It's been awhile since I loaded any 4227 even though there is some that's probably thirty years old on my bench.

I doubt you can improve your lot much.

I generally don't have barrel-length specific loads. The problem with H110 and W296 is not so much pushing the envelope as having to load in a very narrow spectrum just to achieve safety. You can't go up or down hardly atall. That said, I still have and use both powders in the 357 and 44 Magnums and even in 45 Colt.

What inexpensive chronograph would you recommend? I had a Chrony once upon a time.

EE,
The problem with H110 is indeed its narrow use range. I've been moving away from it for several years because of its general persnicketyness-- though my most accurate loads remain 140 grain cast bullets ahead of a book max of H110 (in both 2.5" and 6" Smiths). I now rely on 2400 and am recently trying Blue Dot--though, so far, I can't match H110's accuracy in the .357 (.45 Colt is another matter). I tried IMR4227 in some heavy bullet .357 loads years ago but wasn't impressed. Lots of unburned granuals and less than impressive grouping. Lil gun was another one I tried--gave it up because of very inconsistent results.
I have an old Shooting Chrony but don't know as I'd go so far as to recommend it. It does ok, but I've never tried anything else. I find clocking loads a little tedious.

Ella


I may have to dig it out and do some testing this summer.

I agree regarding H-110, it's steller in the bigger bores with the heavy bullets, but I've yet to find love for it in the .357. 2400 may be one of the oldest powders, but it's as if they designed it for the .357 mag.

As to max loads in a .357 snubbie, to me the guns are just brutally painful to shoot before reaching a top load. I'd gladly give up 100 fps to reduce recoil and muzzleblast.

Somewhere way back when I recall reading an article about top performing powders in short barrel .357's and as I recall the faster burning powders performed pretty much equally with the slower burning powders.

I get a kick out of the noise and fluster. If the range is too busy, sometimes a few cylinders of special 125 grainers will clear one some elbow room.

Darn thing shoots quite nicely--clay pigeon at 100 yards kind of nicely.

Ella

H110 & 296 will always give you the highest velocity out of most any barrel length, but when it gets down to 2", I personally just don't see much advantage to the magnum. Too much flash, noise, & recoil, and not enough velocity.

Me neither. I cannot see a reason for a full 357 magnum load in a 2 inch snub nose gun, kills at both ends, when your blind from the flash, deaf from the report and miss from the flinch that gave you a hurty hand, someone might actually do something bad to you in return for all that noise you made in their direction.

"two bulls were sitting on top of a hill looking at the cows below and the young bull said "lets run down there and screw one of them", the old bull said "lets walk down there and screw them all"

I'll stick with my old M36 and 125gr HPs, thanks.

Maybe 11 or 12 years ago, my huntin' bud bought a new 5 shot SS S&W snubbie in 357. I shot it once, stoked with (I think?) 158gr Hydra Shoks. Dimensionally, the little critter wasn't much bigger than my M36, but holy crap, what a handful to shoot.

But there's an added benefit - along with a large wound, you'll give the perp 3rd degree burns from the muzzle flash...


But I hear ya re: recoil/noise from a full-house load in an SP101. I've used 'em and you definitely better hang on; not a one-handed grip IMHO.. Still, it hurts a lot less than a .454C run through the Alaskan snubbie.. THAT hurts, pure and simple..

Goodness gracious. There's a big difference between a 2.5" k-frame and a snubby j-frame! The latter doesn't lend itself to enjoyable full power load shooting. The former is surprisingly comfortable (and accurate) in my humble opinion. Granted muzzle blast and flash exceed what may be tolerable for "tactical" self/home defense, but for range plinking and especially for backpacking and for whacking the occasional hog, I find a short k-frame a generally satisfying option. This spring, I am rediscovering the portable pleasures of mine, and my 6" 686 is correspondingly falling out of favor. Yes, everybody likes a 4" barrel for general use, but I've always found that barrel lenght a little vanilla.... Nevertheless, shoot what pleases ya.



Ella

I've never even fired a shorty 357 magnum. Call me a wimp,but after all the stuff I have read like your post, Lee-I am not sure I am missing much!

"I've never even fired a shorty 357 magnum."

Try a short M19 or M66 sometime. You may find the reports greatly underrate the experience. In particularly, it is not difficult to hit with one....

Ella

Where did I indicate that my bud's pistol was on a K frame?

IIRC, it was a M60, which S&W "counts" as a J frame. Note that I said his little 357 wasn't much different dimensionally, from my M36. I believe the M60 weighs less than 4 or 5 ounces more, than my old M36?

I've had a 4" M686 since they were introduced and can shoot that rascal all day, with my relatively hot 125gr HP reloads. Similar loads in a J frame? Entirely different matter.

"Where did I indicate that my bud's pistol was on a K frame?"

I'm talking about my own revolver--see the original post and the photo above. The 686 is indeed a third thing entirely, but it gives up some packability to the k-frame....

Ella

Agreed. I believe a K-frame 357 in 2-4" barrel configuration is about as close to a perfect packin' pistol as you'll find.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't pack J-frame and L-frame revolvers from time to time. Also N-frames...

Here are some chrono results from several years ago that might be of interest. The bullet was a 185gr WFNGC from Beartooth and I used Hodgdon's data for the 180gr Jacketed Nosler Partition.

Not quite up to Buffalo Bore loads, but not bad in the shorter barrel lengths.

Beartooth 185gr LFNGC (yes 185gr not 158gr)
New WW Cases
Fed 200 Mag
14.7gr Lil'Gun
1.595 OAL
Chron 4 Paces fr Muzzle
Temp 75 Deg


Marlin 18" 1,713 fps
Ruger BH 6.5" 1,388 fps
Ruger SP101 3+" 1,161 fps
S&W M60 3" 1,175 fps
S&W M360 Ti 1 7/8" 1,023 fps
S&W M340 Ti 1 7/8" 1,007 fps

Paul

I'm glad all you guys like those 2.5" k's. I'm a far worse shot with my 2.5" 66 than either my 4" 586 or my wife's 3" 60. I've settled on 357 158s at moderate loading, 15 grains of H110 I think off the top of my head. Darn handy size, and feels great in my hand, but I'd ruther a 4".

Just random thoughts:

I have often wondered if the .357's reputation as a stopper comes from bad guys being scared chitless by the fireball in their direction

In magnum revos I have had good accuracy and speed with Lil'Gun for full power loads, but I must admit the loads Alliant shows for 300-MP look real interesting. With 158's in the .357, they show 1600+ fps, with 2400 only making 1265. I'll have to check again and see if the local reloading shop has any of this powder.

For years I had no .357's, and then wound up with an inherited Colt and a 5" N Frame, both classic revos. The Colt served my Dad at his business, when three mean drunks from the nearby bar started a problem. The Colt was drawn and they instantly became sober & scarce.

I've come close to buying one of these:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/..._757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

I could see that one, or one of the 3" full lug M60's as an awfully good trail revolver - shot loads for snakes, cast for small game, fiercer JHP loads for bear, mt lions, or 2 legged predators. I'd probably look at Power Pro or maybe Unique for mid-range loads

Go for it! Lots of 38 sp loads out there to work in it, let us know how you like it.

Paul,
I'm just now getting back to this thread. Thanks for the numbers. I remember reading very impressive lil gun speeds with low pressure in the .357 some years ago and giving a pound a try. I had a hard time getting consistent velocities and had some loads seem to pressure spike (very difficult extraction with previously "proven" powder charges), so I quit using it. I didn't investigate too far and there could have been several factors: temp changes, dirty/clean gun, primers, bullets (I was using 158 grain weights and heard somewhere this powder works best with the +heavies) but I never tried again....

Ella

Paul, great data! Also, having owned a few .357 snubbys myself, including both the 1 7/8" & 3" Scandium S&W 360's, I can positively say that those two 360's were by FAR the most brutal recoiling guns I ever shot!

I did once fire a cylinder full of some max loads (don't remember the charge but I worked it up for deer hunting in my 686) using the Sierra 170 grain JHC and it brought tears to my eyes by the 6th shot using a PAST pad & double ear protection.

My first 357 Mag was a 3" M65, which was a DEA-surplus issue gun I bought from CDNN by mail order. I shot and won my first IDPA State championship title with that little gun, defeating guys with full-moon clip M625's. I'm not saying that to brag on me... God knows I was luckier'n a dog with two you-know-what's that day to get over on those guys... but the point I'm trying to make is that a good 3" K-frame can get almost anything done you need it to in the run-n-gun, self-defendin' mode of operation, which is what IDPA was set up to simulate.

Will it outperform my 6" M586 or Ruger BH 7.5" on deer at 100 yards? Of course not. But if it's what I had on my belt when a deer showed up at 45 yards, I could put that 158 gr SJHP bullet right in the boiler room and collect my winter's meat. Moreover, after shooting that deer Saturday evening, I could tote that little magnum under my untucked shirt to church the next morning and no one would be the wiser, myself included, because it's as light and handy a handgun as I could ask for.

I've bought and sold several dozen 357 Mag revolvers since then, but I still have (and carry often!) that 3" Model 65. And I'm thinkin' I need to start looking for another half-dozen of 'em to give to the kids.

Don't get me wrong Doc, I'm not bashing the 2.5s at all. If you and others can make them sing, more power to you. I'm only saying I can't shoot the one I have well enough to feel comfortable past 25. I can conceal a 4" Lframe well enough that's what I pack, when I'm concealing a revolver. More practice is certainly in order, and I'm going to replace the frint sight on mine with a big dot tritium. It fills a niche for me now, but will likely go down the road in favor of something I like more better.

Roger that.

I'm thinking a 3" 686..... Anybody have one they'd trade straight across for a 2.5" 66-5?

At the same time, it hurts to think of ridding myslef of a pre-lock smith no matter what the configuration. Maybe I'll just learn to shoot this darn thing.

I tried out the reduced flash loads from Buffalo Bore in my 2.5 66, and they actually put off more flash than the other regular loads I was shooting that day.

Another thing that I noticed was that at five yards the gasses were blowing the target out of the holder, telling me that there was a lot of unspent gases which kind of surprised me since these loads were designed for short barreled .357's The same loads in my 6" were not blowing the target out of the holder.