I have a S&W Model 19 357 Mag with a 4" barrel. I like the gun and it shoots well. I have been thinking about trading it for a Ruger GP100. I don't know anything about the Ruger. Can you give me some pro's and cons with the GP100 compared to the Model 19?

The Ruger GP-100 has a larger frame than the M-19. It is about the same size as a S&W L frame. The GP-100 will stand up to heavy loads better than the Smith. If it is going to be a carry piece the M-19 is a little smaller and lighter thus may be better for you. If you shoot lots of heavy loads then go with the GP.

Pros: Greater durability, easily changed front sight.

Cons: Greater weight; worse trigger, shortage of good, well shaped grips, overall crudeness of construction when compared to the S&W product.

I have both, and enjoy both (having acquired them at different times over the years and having come, now, to appreciate their differing strengths), but I would never trade a S&W M19 for a GP100.

+1, Oregon45

Kinda like comparing an F-250 with a Corvette.

I've had a couple GP100s, and they are really tough, like overbuilt you might say. Mine were good shooters too. I liked the older rubber grips with the wood panels better than the newer Hogue grips.

I put a LOT of miles on M19s too, they are really nice revolvers for the size/weight. Great trigger. And classy.

Smith or Ruger??? Not sure there's a question there (S&W every time)...

For hard use,one that can and will stand up to anything you can throw at it and still shoot very well,the GP 100 is the winner. The M19 is a sleek little piece that has earned its place nicely. Your call Lad!!

I would much rather have the GP-100 than the Smith if you are going to shoot it a lot, if not then the Smith would be easier to sell and may be worth a little more.

The S&W is a more elegant weapon, IMO. It also has the better potential in the double action trigger pull department.

The Smith is a weaker design, and has a history of weakness when shooting actual 357 loads. K frames were designed around low pressure 38 special loads over a century ago. The GP was designed for unlimited use of 357 magnum ammunition less that 20 years ago. The GP has a frame design that allows almost unlimited grip options, much like Dan Wessons are/were. This design was copied from High Standard revolvers that were released shortly before that companies demise. A GP100 trigger responds to competent trigger work the same as the S&W. The single action is a bit creepier, but that can be dealt with by (once again) a competent gunsmith. The GP100 is heavier than the K frame in all respects. Sometime back, factory 357 mag ammo pressure limits were downgraded by SAAMI in response to the friggin' S&W K frames going down because they weren't designed for such high pressures in the first place. S&W does make an excellent .357 magnum revolver, but it is not a K frame. If the K frames were so perfect, S&W would never have developed the L frame 686 in 1980, so late in the game.

An F250 and a Corvette? More like an F250 and a Vega. Great lines, but not suited to the task. I've had a few K frames, and they were neat 38 Specials, but poor 357 magnums. A quick glance at S&Ws website suggests that they no longer offer any K frame in 357 magnum. 22s,32s & 38s only. The calibers they were designed for in the first place.

I wish that S&W would bring back the 19/66, but it would kill sales of the 686. With the improved metallurgy and machining of today, it shouldn't be a problem. If they can make 5-shot J-frame .357's, a K-frame shouldn't be a problem.

Poor Bill Jordan. He never realized how poorly he was armed.

I've got both and that's what you should do, get them both. Carry the Smith and shoot the GP100.

Model 19s are nicely made. Consider a good used Security Six. Just about the same weight as a 19 and rated for heavy loads.

I would never trade that model 19 for a Ruger. NEVER!

Yeah, ya think??

Me neither...but I would certainly get a GP-100 and add it to the stable.

I flat out like my Rugers ... (Flatops.)

And if I were to purchase a large DA revolver I would still choose the Ruger over the S&W.

> Both are durable, reliable, and accurate ...
> Smith & Wesson is adorable and has 'The Reputation' ...
> Ruger is more solidly constructed, and less expensive ...

BUT - I think it mostly comes down to personal preference.

BUT - Trade a Smith for a Ruger? ... NO !!!

I also have both including a Smith mod 13 and 19 and the GP-100...If I didn't have any and wanted a .357,I would get the Ruger first but I wouldn't trade either for the other.

The GP-100 is more of what I need in .357.

Jayco

The only Ruger revolver I own is an early 1980s Speed Six .357 Magnum. Awesome package, but when it heats up at the range, it tends to bind a bit, requiring a cooling off period from time to time. It's the only revolver I own that does that.

Bill Jordan specifically stated that the K frame magnums should be used with 38 special for practice, and that the use of magnum loads should be restricted to duty only because the gun will not survive a steady diet of 357 magnums. Please re-read his work for any necessary clarification, he wasn't shy about saying this out loud. BTW, most of his exhibition shooting was done with 38 Spl too, often with wax bullets. Bill did own N frame S&Ws too.

Yep, I have and have read his book, No Second Place Winner. The K-Frame .357 has been long misunderstood, even by the police departments that bought them up early on. At first, they followed Jordan's recommendation, but eventually forgot all about it when they decided that cops should practice with what they keep in their guns. That's when they started having to send them back to the factory for regular adjustments and replacement. It wasn't the gun's fault. It was never designed to digest a regular diet of Magnums. In fact, the idea was to both practice with and carry .38 Special, but to keep Magnums at the read for special purposes, such as penetrating cover, stopping bad guys in cars, stopping body-armored bad guys, and the like.

In those days factory 357 mag was factory loaded to about 42,000 PSI today the ceiling is 36,000 PSI.

I have never had a problem with mine, but I only shoot 158 grain bullet or heavier

The same here in my Smith's if I want Magnum loads in them.I don't worry much about the GP-100 but then again,I don't have much use for light for caliber bullets in the .357 Smith or Ruger.

Jayco

Has anyone here ever "worn out" a Model 19?

By that I mean incurring wear to the point that the revolver needed more than merely an overhaul (cylinder shimming, crane stretching, etc.) but required replacement of major components (e.g., new barrel, new cylinder, crane, etc.).

I've shot many thousand full tilt .357 loads in my snub M66 and have never had issues. (I did have to service the M686 once.) For a few years now, I have steered away from the 125 grain bullets--as those loads seemed the chief culprits in the rumors ascribing delicacy to the K-frame. But 140 and 158 grainers over max loads of h110 are accurate and fun range-clearers, not to mention more than adequate pig gitters.

Gotta love that BANG.

I hear good things about the GP, but all my Ruger revolvers are single actions.

Ella

Memory is sketchy so I might get a minor detail incorrect, but...

The recommendation about using .38's for regular practice and .357's for "serious social work only" as they called it was long known about the M19.

What brought about the eventual introduction of the L frame was the introduction of the hot 125 grain loadings. These ate away at the forcing cone of the Model 19's and eventually produced cracks (IIRC).

The Model 19 in good shape is a great revolver. I had one in 4" around 1969 or 70 and sent it back to Smith for a 6" barrel and their then relatively new red ramp/white outline sights. It was a great revolver, very accurate and of course the action was like a jeweled Swiss watch.

But I'm a bit leery of used ones nowadays since you don't know the history of what they'be been fed for the last few decades. If one is in good shape then it's in good shape, but unless you really knew what you were doing and how to evaluate wear you could get stuck with one on the verge of getting worn out.

Speaking of L frames and worn out revolvers, I got a no dash 586 6" in 1981 and shot that thing so much I finally had to send it back to Smith sometime in the late 90's for an overhaul. It's still a heck of an accurate revolver although it doesn't get shot anymore since I got a 6" half lug stainless GP-100.

The FBI once issued Model 13s, a K frame .357, and issued 38 Spl +P lead hollowpoint ammo.

I am one of those guys who wore out a K frame in under 500 rounds. Mine was a M65 that I bought new, and it was out of time in under 10 boxes of 158 gr .357. That was 5 range trips, spread out over a little over 2 months. Another one, an M19 didn't really make it any further. While I'm whining about it, a beautiful nickel plated M29 went out of time in about the same time frame. I was more understanding with it because at the time it was "the most powerful gun on the planet". Any gun requiring major service work after only a couple of months is ill-suited to the task.

The K frames were replaced by a Ruger Security Six. Five years later, I finally had to put a hand in it, and I rode that gun hard! Now I only buy 686s & GP100s, but I'd really like to accumulate another Ruger "Six" series .357 someday.

What time period, were your revolvers made?

I have a number of 19's. My first one and still have it, was purchased in a 4inch configeration in the late 70's. I used this on the sheriff's department at the time. I have fired literally thousands of .38special through it. Maybe a box or two of magnum.
The limited amount of magnum rounds is i just never could see the sense of the blast, recoil and so on for killing tin cans and targets. A couple of months ago i finally took the yellow/red paint off the front sight that i have had on it forever.
Now I know about that shaved area on the forcing cone, but it isn't much of a worry if you are not doing light loads. as in those 125grain projectiles. A 4inch model 19 is still one of the best balanced pistols out there.
I have a couple of new ones, unfired, from that time frame if i ever get to worrying about wearing one out in my lifetime.

I have known a couple that wore out a J frame, but none in the model 19

Model 19's are not rare enough or expensive enough, in my opinion, to merit worrying about "wearing one out." If you do, just buy another. Even the most desirable M19's (early production with factory grips) are often found below $700.

We're not talking about 44spl Triple Locks here...

I have no idea. This pistol came from an estate sale. One of my friends was real close to this person. It hasn't been shot much at all. I have shot it maybe 75 times if that much siting in. Is there a website I can check the serial number to find the time frame?

I thought that I would share this personal experience with a Model 19 blowing up at the Rio Salado Rifle range in Mesa Az in 1997 or 1998.

I was sitting with my friend shooting on the rifle line. I was shooting my 17 Ackley Hornet at the 100 yd line and my friend was having trouble getting his scope on his Rem 700 30/06 adjusted for a 100 yd zero. I asked him to let me sit down at his bench and try to bore sight the rifle. We both stood up from a sitting position at the bench. Just as I stood up and steped behind the shooting bench, my friend grabbed his chest and said in a shaky voice, "it came from that away" pointing down the rifle line to the right. He had a horrible look of pain in his face. I asked him if I could remove his hand from his shirt and see, and as I did, I saw a 2"-3" gaping hole in his chest right above the Sternum. I had a clean hankerchief in my back pocket, I got him to lay down on the concrete, and asked one of the range masters to keep pressure on the hankerchief as I went down the shooting line to get the head range master to declare a cease fire and look for other injured shooters.

About 20 benches to the right of our shooting bench, I see a young man hobbling off crying and sobbing. I grab him and lay him down on the ground and ask him if I can examine his wound, as he was bleeding profusely from the crotch. As I pulled down his pants, I could see his penus was almost severed by shrapnel. I told him to grab hold of his dick and hold tightly as he was by now screaming in agony.

As I stood up to look for further victims, I saw a woman sobbing as she hobbled away from the shooting benches, she said, "my husband, my husband" pointing to a man still sitting up right at the bench, she was ok, just in shock.

The man at the bench, looked as if he had been frozen in time, still gripping the pistol sitting on the pistol rest. He had blood coming from his face and forehead in mupliple places along with shrapnel wounds in his arms and hands. He was motionless and never spoke or made a sound. With another range officer, we laid him down on the concrete and opened his shirt, there was no wounds on his chest, but he was going into shock.

Two surgeons were on the scene and they took over the wounded. I went to the bench along with the head range master and looked at his pistol that had blown up. The entire top half of the cylinder, sights, crane an ejector assembly missing, and top strap were blown off, obviously had been blown to pieces. The pistol was a Model 19 Smith, in what looked like exellent conditon(what was left of it).

Police closed down the rifle range immediatley, and confiscated the gun and ammo. Ammuniton was later found to not be at fault, no over loads on the reloader's part. Instead, the Model 19 was designed to shoot 38 specials in practice, then limited duty 357 use.

My friend made a full recovery in about a year, cylinder had penetrated the chest at the heart, but all the velocity was gone from breaking the sternum. I do not know about the other two vicitms recovery, but heard that the guy that was shooting the Model 19 had quit shooting and had sold all his guns.

If my friend had had trouble sighting in his 30/06, that piece of cylinder would have hit me in the side of the head. If I had not stood up when I did, I would not have been here today. We were 82 feet away from the pistol that blew up.

It is common knowledge with Smith that Model 19's are known to blow up, not intended to be used with hot 357 mag ammo all the time...38's for practice...357's for duty use....

Since the original post was on the Model 19 vs the GP100, you would be hard pressed to blow up a GP100. I have the 686 and the GP100. I replaced the original hammer spring in the GP with a light spring available from Brownell's and also replaced the sights with a beade front sight and a V notch rear, you can really get a fine hold on a target. With the upgraded trigger spring(trigger is fantastic in single and double action) and the sights, groups acheivable from this pistol have been supurb. I have shot untold thousands of HOT load with max loads of 18.0g of H110 and 17.8g of IMR 4227 with the 125g Sierra's in this pistol on jack rabbits, 8 coyotes, and two javelina...one hell of an accurate pistol. Groups with the 125's are where the bullets touch at 25 yards, and almost as good with the 158g load with IMR 4756.

The 686 has never been as accurate as this particular SS GP100 in 6", but the trigger is a tad better on the smith since I had a guy at the custom shop work it over before they moved to Az. Shooting this particular 6" GP100, It is pretty easy to hit 12" tall 4"x6" pieces of wood at 100 yards as they stand up like bowling pins shooting from a rested position with the IMR 4227 load with the sierra 125's above.

If you own a Model 19, Smith will verify what I spoke of above, as my friend tried to sue S&W over the gun blowing up to no avail.

There is know comparison at all between the GP-100 and The Smith 19 in strength..The GP-100 is far/far stronger than the Smith...As to accuracy from what I see owning both,there equal.

Jayco

"......the guy that was shooting the Model 19 had quit shooting and had sold all his guns."




Must have acquired a wicked flinch.....grin


Seriously though, some serious destruction there.

Everything changes with time including Smith and Wesson revolvers...Just a short quote from Buffalo Bore and there heavy cast loading for the .357 Mag.

. You'll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Jayco

1. All it takes is one double charge-the one in the gun.
2. Common knowledge???
3. So S&W won the lawsuit? What does that tell you, maybe that it was the handloads fault?

there was no lawsuit...no point to it.

I wonder what made it come unglued, too many full 357's and it quit locking up right, or too many 38's, little cleaning and a few 357's?

Elgin Gates had a 29 go south in the middle of a silhouette match, but it started shaving first and at least gave a warning.

Hawk, the 19's are just not beefy enough to digest hot load 357's on a steady diet, never were meant to. Metal fatigue finally wins out.

I agree.

The K-frames are larger than the J-frame and S&W chambers them in 357. A K-frame will shoot loose, but should not b low up. If one does there is something wrong

I've never felt that they were, but usually there is a gradual reduction in the guns ability. Sounds like the gun never locked up properly or the cone was gone/cracked.

Of course a lot of 38's shot and never cleaned, plus a few (or one) 357 can cause similar havoc in a (then 60 year old) design that predated smokeless powder.

Its like using modern 45 Colt loads in a SAA with no other change than the cylinder.

I can't ever recall seeing or hearing about a single documented case of any S&W hand ejector having a catastrophic failure from being shot too many times. I think your conclusion is completely erroneous.

Yep.

I don't see where he mentioned catastrophic failure.

"Carry the Smith and shoot the GP100."

This!

"I only shoot 158 grain bullet or heavier."

Same here and same in my .38 SPs. I don't depend on the penetration of a 110 JHP.

Expat

"It is common knowledge with Smith that Model 19's are known to blow up, not intended to be used with hot 357 mag ammo all the time" Post #6834115

I have a pinned and recessed M19 that needs to be rebuilt. Some young idiot stretched the cylinder and cracked the forcing cone with a double charge of fast burning powder 30 years ago.

After it is fixed, it will get 158 lead at no more than 1000 fps.

Expat

Not a Ruger DA handgun fan.

When I lived in NH and hunted with several guys who worked for Ruger at Pinetree Casting, none of them shot Ruger DA revolvers, all shot S&Ws, mostly 17s/18s/19s/25s/27s/29s and their stainless brothers. Curiously, only a couple of them shot Ruger 77s, most were Marlin 336, Remington 700, or Winchester 70 shooters.

I've owned the same S&W 19 for about 40 years. Have shot mostly 38 target loads through it, probably more than 5K rounds, and maybe another 1K rounds of full power 357 Mags, still tight. When I 1st got it, I shot 158 grain SUperVel JHPs and killed a couple of New England whitetails with it.

Jeff

I missed that. That's news to me.

I don't carry the Model 19. I have other guns that carry better. I just want to use it to hunt and use it as a backup firearm when hunting. From what I'm reading on here, it sounds like I need to go ahead and sell or trade it.

That doesn't seem to be the majority opinion as I'm reading it. Most seem to have high praise for it. Many suggest, however, that a regular diet of Magnums (particularly the lighter weight Magnums) will cause it's service life to be shortened.

I carried a issued 5" S&W 19 with FHP for 5 years ( can't begin to recall the amount of 158gr Winchester FP that was shot thru that gun!!!! never ever a problem) I don't own a 19 now but would love to find a nice 2 1/2"

GP100 has a much better grip, old style or the new Hogues.

The GP 100 frame/size is more in line with the S&W 686.

Smiths will always have better triggers, but the 66's grip does not agree with my hand at all.

Ruger is He!! for stout and the 66 has a reputation for shooting loose even in law enforcement use. I think it was the hot 125 Law Enforcement loads that were being blamed though.

IF you need heavier stronger gun go 686 or GP100 or even Dan Wesson 715, otherwise hang in there with the 66.

A 5" S&W 19 would be an odd duck, probably highly in demand by collectors. 2.5" 19s and 66s are bulky for a snubby, but not as bulky as the 3.5" 27s, and man do they have a muzzle blast/flash that will try to give you a flinch.

Jeff

Nothing better than a four inch model 57.

Never felt the need for a .41 Mag. As such, I have had to make do with .22LRs, .22MRFs, a .22 Jet, .357s, .429s, both Special and Magnum, and .452s/.454s, both LC and ACP, in my Smith DAs.

Jeff

I'll take all of the M-19's that you want to get rid of.

I've never had the impression they were bombs waiting to go off, they just are a gun prone to wear if beat on with regular diets of recoil, pressure and inertia, just like most Smiths.
A "catastrophic" failure is usually linked to a person ignoring what their gun is showing them.

I'd like to know what carries better, unless its a Colt Trooper, 357 or Python in 357? J-frames are on the wee side of pointing well.

I don't carry the Model 19 because it's so bulky and heavy compared to my carry guns. My carry guns are HK P2000sk 40, Kahr PM9, and Ruger LCP. The Model 19 is not as comfortable to carry for me as my other guns.

I just want to use the pistol for hunting and from what I've read, the Ruger sounds like a better hunting pistol.

I wouldn't say that. I like Ruger single action revolvers, but I won 2 M-19's in 357 but no Rugers. The M-19 is a perfect size 357 IMHO and an excellent hunting revolver that will give decades of great service

My .357 hunting revolver is a blued 6 in. GP100. I added a Hogue rubber grip, Millett blaze orange front sight, and did a light trigger job. I wanted the gun to be reliable with any make of ammo available, so it didn't get the really light springs. It will fire ammo with CCI magnum small rifle primers if necessary (I tried it). It's over 10 years old now, and is still as tight as new. I even used it for a season of bowling pins, with 200 gr cast bullets. My "gamer" gun is a slicked up 4 in. 686 S&W. It's fast, but even it requires occasional tweaking.

My best advice. Never fire a S&W revolver and expect to be happy with a Ruger revolver.

The S&W trigger is that much better IMO.

Nothing wrong with the Ruger, extremely well built and rugged, just not as refined as S&W.

they seemed to be the norm., I believe they were made for FHP
I saw M27's that were 5" and Colt New Service's in 357 Mag. that were 5" and mine wasn't the only 19 with a 5" barrel

I'm a Smith Guy when it comes to DA revolvers.... My first was a 1970 Model 19 blue 4". Put 10K rounds of nothing but 1200 fps 357156 cast gas checked bullets through it before it was returned to Smith for a tune and to be nickeled. It then ran another 10K of the same load before being sold in 1980...and still looking in 95% condition. The gun had a total of 6 .38 Special rounds through it and a few boxes of JHPs.

That said for a mid-size .357 Magnum I would go with and have purchased a stainless 4" GP100. Although the single action will never be what the average Smith is, the DA is just as good as any out of the box smith. Both can be tuned to perfection by a competent smith. And since I shoot DA revolvers DA 95% of the time the SA pull doesn't really concern me.

As to the grips, both the stock grips and the Hogue replacements fit my hands fine. For sights the quickly replaceable Rugers are way better than the pinned in Smiths, except those from the Custom Shop. I have one of the FO fronts on the Ruger with a WO rear and it is a lot easier to see than a black or colored ramp front on a Smith.

When I shoot a .357 it is usually with .357s not .38s so a GP100 just works better for me than the 19....

Bob

ps...I also recently purchased a 3" Model 66...boy what a nicely balanced gun.... It is giving the GP a run for its money....

I guess my first centerfire double action was a 19 too. It was a 4" nickeled. Rough looking gun but I enjoyed it until I traded it on a Colt Trooper Mk. III with a 6" barrel and also nickel plated. The latter was in much better shape and sported Herret's "Trooper" stocks. Wish I still had that one. The Smith's finish was too badly used for me to wish it back.

I've had/have both and will say that in a 4" model for MY needs/uses I prefer the M19. Mine is a M19-4 and with the Uncle Mikes grips fits my hand like a well worn pair of jeans fits....well what they fit. I can litterally draw from a holster, pick up off a table/flat surface/etc. and raise eyes close and when I open my eyes, the sights are aligned. Yes it is not as robust as a GP100 but the slick trigger, fit, weight, and balance just appeals to me more. Oh, mine is super accurate.

I'm an s&w man when it comes to DAs (rugers are fine for SA shooting), so I'd opt for the M19 IF, I didn't plan on a lot of magnum shooting. I do like the ergonomics of the gp100, but not the DA trigger pull.

Sorry, but if I have to worry about overusing it, it's not going to ride in my waistband. YMMV