Home
Posted By: SU35 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
I hunt mule deer in the most densely populated area of bear in the State of WA.

Seems every year we have a bear problem, as in bear in camp, at night, especially if there are no berries and there has been a deer kill. (i'm not asking for a lecture on how to avoid them with how I/we handle meat)

I have a G23 40S&W.

What bullet/load would you use for bear?

Go light and hot or big and slow?

Posted By: Idaho1945 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Don't go with light bullets on a bear, they are more compact than an equal size deer & you will need penetration to make them stop wiggling. Use a tough bullet, no hollow points or lightweights. A heavy bullet with a good meplat will turn their lights out with good loads.

Dick
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Big & Slow. Are trade it for a Glock 10mm Model 20. .40cal may work for 2 legged critters, but for bear, I wouldn't bet my life on it.
Posted By: MontanaMarine Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Doubletap has a 200gr WFNGC load for the 40SW. DT claims 1050 fps from a Glock 23. It might be one of the better 40 loads for deep penetration and tissue damage.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

DT also sells the bullets alone, if you want to load some yourself.

Posted By: 222Rem Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Doubletap has a 200gr WFNGC load for the 40SW. DT claims 1050 fps from a Glock 23. It might be one of the better 40 loads for deep penetration and tissue damage.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

DT also sells the bullets alone, if you want to load some yourself.



Ironically I was just on DT's website and noticed that load. I think it'd make the best of a compromising situation.
Posted By: T LEE Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Must agree on that.
Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Thanks, MM, I'll check them out. I'll be handloading for the pistol.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=77&products_id=269

Maybe Longshot powder??

Posted By: jwp475 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Big & Slow. Are trade it for a Glock 10mm Model 20. .40cal may work for 2 legged critters, but for bear, I wouldn't bet my life on it.



A proper wide me-plat hard cast will turn a black bears lights out pronto
Posted By: WTM45 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
".40cal MAY work for 2 legged critters..."

That's funny right there. Try WILL instead.
Posted By: GF1 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Big and slow; and file down the front sight on that .40...
Posted By: paul105 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
My pocket (second) gun is a Kahr CW40 and it is loaded with the Double Tap .40S&W 200gr WFNGCs with "the bear" possibility in mind.

For what it's worth, on my chronograph I get the following results.

From the Kahr's 3.5" barrel, 65 deg F and 5 paces from the muzzle, the Double Tap .40 S&W 200gr WFNGC avgs 920 fps for 5 rounds.

The Double Tap 10mm 230gr WFNGC avgs 1,045fps from a glock 20 at 65 deg F and 5 paces from the muzzle.

Paul
Posted By: supercrewd Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Dont forget this!

A Must for bear hunters!
Posted By: bea175 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by SU35
I hunt mule deer in the most densely populated area of bear in the State of WA.

Seems every year we have a bear problem, as in bear in camp, at night, especially if there are no berries and there has been a deer kill. (i'm not asking for a lecture on how to avoid them with how I/we handle meat)

I have a G23 40S&W.

What bullet/load would you use for bear?


Go light and hot or big and slow?



I would use the 180 gr FMJ loads just for the penetration
Posted By: Hotload Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by supercrewd
Dont forget this!

A Must for bear hunters!



LOL laugh
Posted By: MontanaMarine Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by SU35
Thanks, MM, I'll check them out. I'll be handloading for the pistol.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=77&products_id=269

Maybe Longshot powder??



I'm not familiar with Longshot, so I can't offer any opinion. It may be great, I just don't know where it falls in burn rate.

I was thinking Power Pistol might be a good powder. If Longshot is similar in burn rate, it should work well.

Posted By: JJHACK Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
If you shoot a bear with any load from the .40, and it's not a CNS hit. You will see it run of a very long way. If that's the goal your good to go. However if your going to go look for it, you could be looking a while, over a long way.

Odds are better then not you will get only one hole, .40 bleeds good, but depends much on placement. Higher in the chest will bleed with the initial puncture, but stop at about 50-75 yards if above center of the body. Quartering towards or away will be a bigger struggle for a blood trail then broadside.

I guess, if it were my situation and this as the only option, I would probably play with the rubber bullets available that can be used as a deterrent for bears, rather then trying to puncture one with that cartridge.

All this chat about shooting a bear is well and good. However the situation away from the laptop, out in the bush, searching for spots of blood, ........ well recreational sport hunting feels a bit different looking for a bear you cannot find in thick bush with fading light.

I've tracked a bear recently that was hit poorly. After a one hour wait we went looking. The light was fading but being in the thick woods it was dark. Using a flashlight to see the blood spots here and there, I could hear the bear panting just in front of us. He did not seem to be moving, but his panting grunts were clearly audible. I took the higher ground to see if I could find him looking down into the canyon. We were about 50 yards away would be my guess.

No luck seeing it this way. I slowly moved through the bush to what I would guess is 30 yards. The breathing was clear and struggling. No blood on the ground at this point about 1/2 mile from the shot. I was not sure where the bear was exactly and he was not moving. At this point is was not dark.

We sat right there facing the sounds of the bear. To close the gap further would require crawling on hands and knees. He was clearly hit hard, but no longer leaving blood, and not dying. We were about 2 plus hours into the tracking since the shot. I moved ahead another 10-20 feet seeing if it would open up and allow a better view. No luck, the thorns would pull at my clothing and make too much noise.

The hunter was freaked out beyond words. He wanted out of there an hour ago, and to come back in the morning. I was not convinced this bear would stay put if left over night. He was very alive, but simply pissed off and deciding to stay and fight if we chose that option. This was a big male bear easily 400 lbs. I crawled back to the hunter and we sat another 20-30 minutes. The bears breathing would stop and start again at random. I must have thought 10 times that "he's finally dead" only to hear it start again.

It was now about 11:30 over three hours from the shot. I had one remaining fully charged streamlight left. I held it in one hand and the .44 mag in the other. The hunter had only his bow with him. I went in about 20 feet and the breathing became a low growl. The brush moved a bit, I froze.......... everything stopped, total silence. ........... What to do? the growling was intimidating to say the least, and thorns don't impede the progress of bears as they do my clothing. I froze for about 5 minutes, my hunter started calling to me, but I did not want to reply and give away my location to the bear. He was relentless calling to me so I backed out again to him. I told him I could not reply so he should just be patient and wait for me.

He was now at this point done with this. His panic, shaking, and emotions were breaking him down. He said " I'll never shoot another bear in my life, I'm done with this S%#@!..... I relented and agreed to get him out and away from this. He was about to completely freak out and break down in the dark hearing this bear only a few yards away with a puny light and nothing but his bow.

I got us back out of there and we retuned in the morning, less then 6 hours after we left. I crawled right to the spot the bear was laying, a small spot of blood was there, but no bear, and no further blood, it was obvious he laid there for a while. The bear was now gone. The hunter was done too. He will never hunt a bear again not even with a gun. This was not the recreational event he signed on for.

I guess the point of all this is that when you decide to pull the trigger, or release the arrow there is a responsibility that goes with that. Choose the tool that stacks the deck in your favor. Once you pull the trigger the reality of what you just did will smack you in the face when setting off to find this bear!
Posted By: safariman Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Great post and illustration, JJ.

Plus 1 on moving up to at LEAST a 10mm. A S&W 329PD which weighs even less than your Glock but is significantly more powerful would be an ideal sidearm but for in camp, where is your rifle? Get a flashlight mount for your scope, mount it up on the scope when you hit the sack each evening and use THAT if you need to snuff out a trouble bear. No packable lighweight handgun is as powrful as even a middle of the road big game rifle.
Posted By: jwp475 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12


The 200 grain wide me-plat hard cast load from Double Tap that Montana Marine posted will do the job nicely

The man is familar with the handgun that he has, no need to change. It is about the bullet
Posted By: JohnBurns Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by jwp475


The 200 grain wide me-plat hard cast load from Double Tap that Montana Marine posted will do the job nicely

The man is familar with the handgun that he has, no need to change. It is about the bullet


That deserves to be repeated.

I also thought it was clear from the OP this was for defensive use not sport hunting, although a .40 with the above mentioned bullet would be more effective than archery tackle.
Posted By: DocRocket Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Doubletap has a 200gr WFNGC load for the 40SW. DT claims 1050 fps from a Glock 23. It might be one of the better 40 loads for deep penetration and tissue damage.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

DT also sells the bullets alone, if you want to load some yourself.





This bullet could do the job. I'm going to order some and try 'em out, not necessarily for bear, but I like the idea of having a heavy-for-caliber round for my G22 and G23 should I need to use one of them for a backup gun in a hunting situation.

I have to reiterate what I've said many, many times before, though: handguns are a poor choice of firearm for bear defense. A rifle or slug shotgun are my preference.

FWIW, though, unlike others have posted I wouldn't be totally averse to using an XTP or GDHP 180 gr load for black bear under the circumstances you've described, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I think you should also heed what JJHack has written, above... whether you're going to be hunting bear, or defending yourself and/or your camp from bear, you really should go with a larger/heavier caliber in the .44 Mag or .45 Colt class or larger.

Using rubber bullets combined with airhorns and/or pepper spray as a deterrent to bears approaching camp is also an alternative to consider, but once the bear is in close proximity to you/your camp, especially if it's a hungry bear trying to get at your meat cache, this may not be a viable option. Gary Shelton describes several bad encounters of this type, and in his experience/opinion you need a heavy rifle or slug gun in such situations. I happen to concur with Shelton on this.
Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
I appreciate every one's comments here, really interesting. JJ's story is great!

Quote
I also thought it was clear from the OP this was for defensive use not sport hunting
thanks John,

Sure, I like the idea of moving up to a 10mm in a G. But please let me further explain here.

I backpack hunt the "High Hunt" in a Wilderness area here in WA. I just got back Monday early a.m. from a successful kill on a mule deer at over 7,000 ft. Above timberline.

I'm a bloody mess with deer blood on my boots, pack, and clothes and I have the deers head in camp.

I have become a food target in my small Go-Lite floor-less tent. Not exactly easy to swing a rifle around in one. Reason for handgun.

I am beat tired after boning and hauling a buck off the mountain. (which btw, is the best eating grass fed animal I've ever ate) Mainly why I do it...

At night, the bear(s) come in, again, I'm in a small tent, and you don't always hear them come in. I am in a defensive mode. All I want to do is ventilate a bears noggin.
Yeah, I want to kill them clean, if I have to, but at that point, I don't give a crap.

My partner and I had two bear come in at the same time into camp right at dark thirty. Deal with that one. I had to shoot one with my rifle that wouldn't leave.

I also, personally, don't have the luxury of packing more weight like bulky heavy 10mm handguns. Remember, I have to pack a lot of meat out.

Having bears in the area just puts a nice edge on the hunt itself. I could easily kill my fill of bears during the day, but I'm mule deer hunting and at night I want to sleep with a little assurance that I can defend myself if need be, while sleeping in a small tent.






Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Quote
My pocket (second) gun is a Kahr CW40 and it is loaded with the Double Tap .40S&W 200gr WFNGCs with "the bear" possibility in mind.


Paul, what powder are you using?

Posted By: JJHACK Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
" a .40 with the above mentioned bullet would be more effective than archery tackle."

Serious?

Maybe in defense when your life is threatened and you can empty the magazine. But as a truly lethal tool to kill big game or bears while hunting?

I'm confused by the statement as the OP never suggested archery as an option.

Even if not for sport hunting, are we assuming to let the bear vanish into the bush wounded to interact with the next human coming down the trail. Or are we assuming the prudent and responsible steps to locate and finish the job if needed?

If the latter, how many of you have done this and found a live perforated bear upon arrival? How did you feel when you stumbled upon this very aggressive wounded "nothing left to lose" animal in thick bush with minimal light? Was the gun you had so good you were un concerned and just as easy going as when you started, or did you wish for more regardless of what you were packing?
Posted By: jwp475 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12


Ever use a 40 caliber 200 grain flat point hard cast over 1100 FPS? They penetrate exceptionaly well and will kill a black bear very very dead


Posted By: JJHACK Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
How long to expire? How many seconds or minutes? What
Is that bear going to do in that time span?

Okay, you pay your money and take your chances have fun with the entertaining analysis of these events. What you feel will work is your responsibility to determine. Whether or not you bail out on the follow up is your decision too. Good luck with your choice and your hunting!
Posted By: jwp475 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12


How long to expire is dependent on bullet placement that is a constant no matter the weapon rifle or handgun




Posted By: JJHACK Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Oh one more quick thought, years ago I chained a 140 lb sheep to a tree. A sat in a tree stand bow hunting with this sheep along a well used bear trail.

The first bear to show was about 200lbs or a bit more. He put his front paws on the hind quarters, grabbed the belly skin of that sheep and ripped lose a strip of flesh as easy as a human peels a banana.

He ate a bit and left. Another bear much bigger about 300 lbs grabbed that sheep at the shoulders and lifted it off the ground. He had a tug of war with that Chain on the tree. You could hear bones breaking and skin ripping. That bear did significant damage and destruction to that sheeps skeleton and flesh in under one minute,..... And he was not angry or perforated. YMMV

Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Quote
Even if not for sport hunting, are we assuming to let the bear vanish into the bush wounded to interact with the next human coming down the trail. Or are we assuming the prudent and responsible steps to locate and finish the job if needed?


There is no ideal situation here JJ, I just want to keep my scalp at night while trying to sleep. If ole bear wants to stick his nose in my tent to be meet with a 40/200 grain bullet then it is what it is. If he runs off, I'm sure not going out after him at night.

The next day, I'll look for him with a rifle in hand, not a handgun, that's for sure.




Posted By: jwp475 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by JJHACK
Oh one more quick thought, years ago I chained a 140 lb sheep to a tree. A sat in a tree stand bow hunting with this sheep along a well used bear trail.

The first bear to show was about 200lbs or a bit more. He put his front paws on the hind quarters, grabbed the belly skin of that sheep and ripped lose a strip of flesh as easy as a human peels a banana.

He ate a bit and left. Another bear much bigger about 300 lbs grabbed that sheep at the shoulders and lifted it off the ground. He had a tug of war with that Chain on the tree. You could hear bones breaking and skin ripping. That bear did significant damage and destruction to that sheeps skeleton and flesh in under one minute,..... And he was not angry or perforated. YMMV




I have been around bears in Alaska and I ain't talking black bears and a hand gun lay onmy chest when I slept in a 2 man dome tent.

One day the handgun came in very hangy


[Linked Image]


On the other hand Cottonstalk takes black bears routinely with a handgun and some of them are on the large side

[Linked Image]
Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
We all knew the same old pics from JWP475 were coming. I'd just soon he didn't post on my thread.

He really adds nothing to it of value to the thread except his own ego.



Posted By: Whitworth1 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by SU35
We all knew the same old pics from JWP475 were coming. I'd just soon he didn't post on my thread.

He really adds nothing to it of value to the thread except his own ego.





I disagree. He has way more experience than most here, having taken lots of large game with a revolver not to mention the fact that one of the grizzly bears in that photo was shot out of defense with the very first .475 Linebaugh built by Hamilton Bowen. Pretty significant in my opinion -- if that counts for anything.
Posted By: dla Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Whit: No, it really doesn't. This thread seems to have drifted a bit from the OP's question about the best bullet to use from a G23. What somebody did with a .475 or an RPG or whatever isn't at all relevant.

Pretty darn hard to beat the wound channel from a broadhead. My guess is that JJHack's client missed the lungs. I commend JJHack for sticking with it to get the bear but his client's behavior is all too common. I don't know whether or not bears survive these wounds, but Elk almost never do.
Posted By: Whitworth1 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by dla
Whit: No, it really doesn't. This thread seems to have drifted a bit from the OP's question about the best bullet to use from a G23. What somebody did with a .475 or an RPG or whatever isn't at all relevant.

Pretty darn hard to beat the wound channel from a broadhead. My guess is that JJHack's client missed the lungs. I commend JJHack for sticking with it to get the bear but his client's behavior is all too common. I don't know whether or not bears survive these wounds, but Elk almost never do.


As relevant as your comments about broadheads, I guess.
Posted By: jwp475 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Originally Posted by dla
Whit: No, it really doesn't. This thread seems to have drifted a bit from the OP's question about the best bullet to use from a G23. What somebody did with a .475 or an RPG or whatever isn't at all relevant.

Pretty darn hard to beat the wound channel from a broadhead. My guess is that JJHack's client missed the lungs. I commend JJHack for sticking with it to get the bear but his client's behavior is all too common. I don't know whether or not bears survive these wounds, but Elk almost never do.



Had nothing to do with the caliber, but rather the handiness of having a handgun at all times. The caliber in this thread is settled and others and I agree have recommended the 200 grain flat point from Double Tap for the job at hand
Black bears aren't bullet proof and if SU35 puts a proper bullet where it goes then all will end well
Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
Whitworth,

JWP475, has a way of highjacking threads for his own use. He has done it to me before.

He has added nothing here at all and I could care less what he has done 30 years ago with a 475L.

If he has 40 S&W experience and loads then lets hear about it.

I'd like to go back to topic please.

Posted By: Whitworth1 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
We are talking bullets/loads are we not? He is suggesting you use a 200 grain flat-nosed hardcast. Same principal applies in other cartridges with limited case capacity and velocity potential.
Posted By: justin10mm Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/18/12
I've finished off a couple hogs with the .40 using 180gr. Winchester hollow points. I will say to stay away from any expanding bullets at .40 velocity. They just don't have the penetration potential.

Some are suggesting hard cast bullets but that would make me nervous shooting lead out of a factory Glock barrel. If it were me I'd find some good 180gr-200gr flat nose FMJs to load up.
Posted By: paul105 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by SU35
Quote
My pocket (second) gun is a Kahr CW40 and it is loaded with the Double Tap .40S&W 200gr WFNGCs with "the bear" possibility in mind.


Paul, what powder are you using?


The quoted velocities (above and below) were for the Double Tap Factory ammo. I have some Longshot that I've been meaning to try in the 40 and 10mm, but haven't gotten to it.

Here are the chrono results for the Double Tap Factory ammo:

From the Kahr's 3.5" barrel, 65 deg F and 5 paces from the muzzle, the Double Tap .40 S&W 200gr WFNGC avgs 920 fps for 5 rounds.

The Double Tap 10mm 230gr WFNGC avgs 1,045fps from a Glock 20 at 65 deg F and 5 paces from the muzzle.

Paul





Posted By: 700xcr Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
How about a Bonded HP bullet and have both worlds.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Innovative/PDX1-Defender/Pages/S40SWPDB1.aspx
Posted By: supercrewd Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
I was looking for a bear in the willows just last week. I had a 54 ML in one hand and a 40 in my belt. Not ideal as I would have much rather had my 44 mag, or a repeating rifle for that matter, but you play the cards your dealt...
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Doubletap has a 200gr WFNGC load for the 40SW. DT claims 1050 fps from a Glock 23. It might be one of the better 40 loads for deep penetration and tissue damage.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

DT also sells the bullets alone, if you want to load some yourself.



I'll have to order some of those to try in my little .40cal Springfield EMP. It's quickly become one of may favorite little CHL carry guns when I'm not wearing my Glock .32 in .357sig. Are they accurate in your gun?
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by Steelringer
".40cal MAY work for 2 legged critters..."

That's funny right there. Try WILL instead.


I know. And i also know the .40cal Glock is the preferred & proven gun of choice for probably 80% of Federal, State, & City Law Enforcement Agencies.
But I still prefer a .45acp or .357sig when I drive through the "bad" part of town.
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by GF1
Big and slow; and file down the front sight on that .40...


LOL. Is that so you can use it for a suppository ???
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by justin10mm
I've finished off a couple hogs with the .40 using 180gr. Winchester hollow points. I will say to stay away from any expanding bullets at .40 velocity. They just don't have the penetration potential.

Some are suggesting hard cast bullets but that would make me nervous shooting lead out of a factory Glock barrel. If it were me I'd find some good 180gr-200gr flat nose FMJs to load up.


I've noticed from your previous posts that your a 10mm fan. I agree that the .40cal is not a great choice for bear, & I would Much Prefer my 10mm Glock with heavy 200gr XTP's going 1300fps or Buffalo Bore 220gr LBT type bullets at 1150fps.

That being said, the OP sounds like he is pretty firm on sticking with his Glock .40 for backpack Bowhunts. With that caliber, he would be MUCH better off with a big, wide, heavy Cast Bullet at around 1000fps.

People are often confused by Glocks warning Not to shoot lead bullets. Please let me clarify that Glock is giving that warning because most people load soft lead or cheap swaged lead bullets, which can lead to lead build-up in Glock Barrels. Which could lead to unsafe pressures and a bulged or burst barrel.

If you or the OP sticks to strictly HARD Cast bullets, there is no danger in shooting them through your Glock. I've fired several thousand rounds of hard cast bullets though my various Glock Models over the years without barrel leading or dangerous pressures. This includes a Glock 17 that I used for IPSC competition that fired many thousands of rounds of 147gr hard cast 9mm bullets.

BTW, I've killed tons of feral hogs here on the ranch up to 400lbs with about every common pistol caliber in my safe. I took a friend bow hunting who was packing a .40cal Glock. He had to use it on a big boar that he made a poor shot on with his bow. He was using 165gr JHP ammo, & the Penatration was not good on a big 300lb boar. While we were field dressing the hog, he complained how it took several shots to put the boar down with his .40cal Glock
Later, that day, I shot a big Boar with my Glock 20-10mm using 200gr XTP's.
While we were field dressing my boar, I showed him the difference in Penatration & tissue damage between his .40cal & my 10mm.
He went to the gun store the next day & traded his Glock .40 for a Glock 10mm.
Now he's like Ted Nugent... He never leaves home without his Glock 10mm
Posted By: DocRocket Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by chlinstructor


That being said, the OP sounds like he is pretty firm on sticking with his Glock .40 for backpack Bowhunts. With that caliber, he would be MUCH better off with a big, wide, heavy Cast Bullet at around 1000fps.



I think it's the OP's preference that has boggled a lot of people's brains on this thread. SU35 says he doesn't want to carry anything bigger than his Glock 40 cal, and that's the limiting factor. Some folks won't accept that and want to change the discussion, others say they're willing to play along. I have one foot in each camp.

On the one foot, I'm of the opinion that he can do any damn thing he pleases, as long as it does no harm to me. On that basis, I opined that he'd best use a 200 gr bullet, either a flatnose cast bullet or an XTP. Something heavy that will really penetrate.

On the other foot: If the weight/size of the Glock 23 is the OP's primary consideration, well, there's lots of other Glock handguns the same size that have more power than the 40 S&W. These include the 10mm, which would be arguably better choices for shooting bears. Moreover, there's modest-sized revolvers in 357 Magnum, 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, and 45 Colt that come close to fitting the size/weight bill, and pack a helluva lot more wallop than the 40 S&W.

So the OP's insistence that we have to restrict the discussion to his 40 caliber Glock because of size/weight doesn't really hold up.

What it seems to come down to is a guy who already has a handgun (perhaps his only handgun?) and he doesn't want to buy or carry another handgun, even though the handgun he's got is marginal for the task. And he wants other folks to endorse his intention of using this marginal caliber handgun by recommending a load that stretches his handgun's performance to the very limit. And that's an endorsement I'm just not comfortable making.

It's a "right-tool-for-the-job" issue, IMHO. I might be real comfortable with my light and handy M1 Carbine, but I'd be a damn fool to pack it along expecting to kill bears or moose with it. I'd be smarter to pack a bear/moose caliber rifle and leave the M1 at home. Similarly, if I'm thinking I'm likely to have to shoot a bear or a moose with a pistola, I'd best be packing a pistola that's proven capable of reliably stopping bears and moose.

I guess that's all I have to say about this thread.
Posted By: Magnumdood Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
Originally Posted by Steelringer
".40cal MAY work for 2 legged critters..."

That's funny right there. Try WILL instead.

There are no guarantees that any handgun round will work on 2-legged varmints.

The only way to insure a man stops in his tracks is a central nervous system (brain and/or spine) solid hit.
Posted By: mountainclmbr Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/19/12
I also agree with the DT 200gr WFNGC suggestion. I have shot them through my little Kahr MK40. Not too bad. Only issue is that they are too long to eject a live round through the ejection port. I have to remove the mag and let the round fall through the grip.
Posted By: justin10mm Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by 700xcr


That is the bullet I've used on hogs. It is a great bullet design but IMO the .40 cant push it fast enough for optimal performance. Just not enough penetration potential.

I shot a 150 pound wounded sow at about 5 yards in the shoulder and the shoulder/leg bone stopped the bullet. The bone was cracked but I had to pry the bullet out with a screw driver. A flat point FMJ or hard cast would have gone through and penetrated into the vitals no question.
Posted By: gunner500 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by Magnumdood
Originally Posted by Steelringer
".40cal MAY work for 2 legged critters..."

That's funny right there. Try WILL instead.

There are no guarantees that any handgun round will work on 2-legged varmints.

The only way to insure a man stops in his tracks is a central nervous system (brain and/or spine) solid hit.


I can attest to that personally. smile

Gunner
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by chlinstructor


That being said, the OP sounds like he is pretty firm on sticking with his Glock .40 for backpack Bowhunts. With that caliber, he would be MUCH better off with a big, wide, heavy Cast Bullet at around 1000fps.



I think it's the OP's preference that has boggled a lot of people's brains on this thread. SU35 says he doesn't want to carry anything bigger than his Glock 40 cal, and that's the limiting factor. Some folks won't accept that and want to change the discussion, others say they're willing to play along. I have one foot in each camp.

On the one foot, I'm of the opinion that he can do any damn thing he pleases, as long as it does no harm to me. On that basis, I opined that he'd best use a 200 gr bullet, either a flatnose cast bullet or an XTP. Something heavy that will really penetrate.

On the other foot: If the weight/size of the Glock 23 is the OP's primary consideration, well, there's lots of other Glock handguns the same size that have more power than the 40 S&W. These include the 10mm, which would be arguably better choices for shooting bears. Moreover, there's modest-sized revolvers in 357 Magnum, 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, and 45 Colt that come close to fitting the size/weight bill, and pack a helluva lot more wallop than the 40 S&W.

So the OP's insistence that we have to restrict the discussion to his 40 caliber Glock because of size/weight doesn't really hold up.

What it seems to come down to is a guy who already has a handgun (perhaps his only handgun?) and he doesn't want to buy or carry another handgun, even though the handgun he's got is marginal for the task. And he wants other folks to endorse his intention of using this marginal caliber handgun by recommending a load that stretches his handgun's performance to the very limit. And that's an endorsement I'm just not comfortable making.

It's a "right-tool-for-the-job" issue, IMHO. I might be real comfortable with my light and handy M1 Carbine, but I'd be a damn fool to pack it along expecting to kill bears or moose with it. I'd be smarter to pack a bear/moose caliber rifle and leave the M1 at home. Similarly, if I'm thinking I'm likely to have to shoot a bear or a moose with a pistola, I'd best be packing a pistola that's proven capable of reliably stopping bears and moose.

I guess that's all I have to say about this thread.


Agreed! Also makes a lot of good common sense, as all of your posts do, Doc.
If I'm backpacking or bowhunting in an area where black bears could pose a problem, I want the best tool possible regardless of size or weight. Preferably a 12ga with heavy slugs!

But where weight & size are a big carry concern, my 10mm Glock or Smith & Wesson Mountain Revolver are going to seem awfully light & small, should I have an encounter with a pissed off black bear!
15 rounds of heavy 10mm rounds or 6 rounds of heavy 300gr 44mag LBT bullets are a lot more comforting than a .40cal when on the trail or in a tiny backpacking tent. I know I personally sleep better in my tent if I bring along either of those two "back pack" pistols...
Posted By: 41magfan Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
The nerve of this guy! Just who does he think he is killin' a Grizzly with a .30 Luger?

[Linked Image]

Posted By: DocRocket Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by chlinstructor

Agreed! Also makes a lot of good common sense, as all of your posts do, Doc.


Well, thanks, although it seems to me that most of what I post is not all that commonly sensible... kindasorta like my work in the ER, where I routinely ask my patients, "How the F**K did you DO that to yourself?" ... and they don't have a reasonable answer...

I think bein' up against the average level of dumbphuckitude that passes for thinking in America these days tends to hone a man's perceptions of what is or is not "good common sense"... unfortunately, I am up against less than average level of dumbphuckitude on a daily ER basis...


Originally Posted by chlinstructor
If I'm backpacking or bowhunting in an area where black bears could pose a problem, I want the best tool possible regardless of size or weight. Preferably a 12ga with heavy slugs!


But where weight & size are a big carry concern, my 10mm Glock or Smith & Wesson Mountain Revolver are going to seem awfully light & small, should I have an encounter with a pissed off black bear!


Last time I had the option of shooting a couple 12-ga slugs between a large, predatory black bear's feet versus putting them in his brainpan, I was fervently wishing I had the 16-inch guns of the New Jersey behind me, and even then I'd of been skeered...

I'm just sayin'...
Posted By: chlinstructor Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
LOL. I bet you see a lot of future Darwin Award winners in the ER.
Posted By: JJHACK Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Just for your own piece of mind, I've eliminated bears with the S&W mountain gun using 240grain HPs (xtp) and garrett cartridges ammo and all that falls between.

It's never failed to decide matters and works at a level that greatly exceeds anything smaller. You should rest easy with that choice, only issue then is skill when nervous.

The resolution I have using this particular revolver and various ammo will likely exceed your imagination. It was my job for over a decade to remove bears from the lands of the biggest tree farm corporation in the PNW.

The little S&W mtn gun was a match made in heaven for me and my work.
Posted By: WTM45 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by Magnumdood
Originally Posted by Steelringer
".40cal MAY work for 2 legged critters..."

That's funny right there. Try WILL instead.

There are no guarantees that any handgun round will work on 2-legged varmints.

The only way to insure a man stops in his tracks is a central nervous system (brain and/or spine) solid hit.


Shot placement is critical regardless of the number of legs or the stamp on the side of the slide/barrel. Good hits are the biggest deciding factor. If a shooter can not hit the side of a barn with a .44M/.45C/.460/.454/.500 but CAN with their .40 Glock, then more power to them. We all have to be prepared for the need of additional shots, even with rifles.

I have found shot animals to be much less predictable than shot people. Apples and oranges IMO.

And, Jeez, what's with the need for pistol follow-ups on so many archery animals? Does anyone carry a quiver besides me?
Posted By: DocRocket Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by Steelringer

And, Jeez, what's with the need for pistol follow-ups on so many archery animals? Does anyone carry a quiver besides me?


grin
Posted By: JJHACK Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Must be different habitat where you are, wounded bears are usually in the thickest tangle of brush they can find, arrows don't shoot through anything and you would not even be able to draw a bow in nearly any situation I know of, further more you cannot see sights, or peep in darkness......... right? How does one make a finishing shot in the dark with a bow, in thick brushy habitat?

I'm not intending to be condescending here, however it seems like there are a whole lot of people that provide commentary on this topic with very few that have the real world experience to provide help. Basing your opinions on what you have done once or twice, or what Uncle frank told you, or your sister's boyfriends dads work buddy is not the kind of information that has any value to the topic. Lets get real on this stuff.

If it's all in fun, many people straight up say " well I've never done this but here is what I think" However there are a whole lot of folks that seem to think since they have shot newsprint, and deer, or a few pigs or even an elk or six. This somehow makes them qualified to comment on what it's like to shoot a bear at close range in the dark on a follow up. Or in close range self defense.

This thread would have a much better level of education and credibility if it were limited to those who have killed 25-50 or even 100 bears with a handgun. Those guys have been there, done it and get the big picture of the situation.

It's just getting silly to actually read (some) of these posts now. Everyone is an expert, but what is the background that justifies the the claims of factual opinion? Carry on folks it's become a cartoon now not an educational thread with knowledge, experience, and facts
Posted By: 41magfan Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Too many folks confuse exposure with experience.
Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Quote
That being said, the OP sounds like he is pretty firm on sticking with his Glock .40 for backpack Bowhunts.

LOL!!!
Who said I was archery hunting? I'm not! Never said I was, I'm on a rifle hunt.

So much presumption delved out here from so little experience.

I'm asking for a load to put into a bears brain from feet not yards.

It's kinda hard to maneuver a rifle inside a small backpack tent. I was asking for a load to put through a bears noggin from a tent, maybe inside a tent.
I think I've been clear on that. But somehow the experts here have me bow hunting and sticking bear with arrows and following up with pistol shots from a handgun.

I asked fast or slow to see the interesting responses I would get. I wasn't let down! smile

And Doc, with all due respect and I really do have respect for you. I don't need your endorsement to do what I now is best for me. smile

Posted By: SU35 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Quote
It's just getting silly to actually read (some) of these posts now. Everyone is an expert, but what is the background that justifies the the claims of factual opinion? Carry on folks it's become a cartoon now not an educational thread with knowledge, experience, and facts


Thank you JJ.

I don't want to discourage anyone from posting as I have pretty much learned something from each post.

It has kinda of gotten out of hand with presumption here.
Posted By: DocRocket Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by SU35

And Doc, with all due respect and I really do have respect for you. I don't need your endorsement to do what I know is best for me. smile


I hope I made it clear I respect your decision, too, and envy you the youth and health to pursue what sounds like great hunting opportunities.

Nope, you sure don't need my endorsement nor did I mean to imply that you did. Carry on, friend,
Posted By: WTM45 Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
Originally Posted by JJHACK
Must be different habitat where you are, wounded bears are usually in the thickest tangle of brush they can find, arrows don't shoot through anything and you would not even be able to draw a bow in nearly any situation I know of, further more you cannot see sights, or peep in darkness......... right? How does one make a finishing shot in the dark with a bow, in thick brushy habitat?

I'm not intending to be condescending here, however it seems like there are a whole lot of people that provide commentary on this topic with very few that have the real world experience to provide help. Basing your opinions on what you have done once or twice, or what Uncle frank told you, or your sister's boyfriends dads work buddy is not the kind of information that has any value to the topic. Lets get real on this stuff.

If it's all in fun, many people straight up say " well I've never done this but here is what I think" However there are a whole lot of folks that seem to think since they have shot newsprint, and deer, or a few pigs or even an elk or six. This somehow makes them qualified to comment on what it's like to shoot a bear at close range in the dark on a follow up. Or in close range self defense.

This thread would have a much better level of education and credibility if it were limited to those who have killed 25-50 or even 100 bears with a handgun. Those guys have been there, done it and get the big picture of the situation.

It's just getting silly to actually read (some) of these posts now. Everyone is an expert, but what is the background that justifies the the claims of factual opinion? Carry on folks it's become a cartoon now not an educational thread with knowledge, experience, and facts


You are in a unique position regarding this subject.
You take money as income from hunters who are probably average shooters regardless of their chosen weapon. So, I can not fault you one bit for being as well prepared, as well armed and as well practiced with your arms for cleaning up other's messes. YOU PLACE YOURSELF IN DANGER INTENTIONALLY. That brings about a whole different set of needs and requirements.
I clearly understand your opinion, and can appreciate your comments.

THE OP is discussing BLACK BEARS in WA NOT GRIZZ IN THE ALASKA BUSH.

But, for the average to above average hunter, whatever THEY feel is an accurate weapon FOR THEM will suffice in a pinch. I see no need for a super-duper-nitro loaded specialty heavy magnum for an emergency backup or security situation in this case. I'm not endorsing a .40S&W for a primary by far. If one finds themselves following up an injured animal, then long arms should be the choice of the moment based on terrain and lighting.

I did not introduce archery to the conversation. Seems it always comes up in reference to follow up shots and wounded animals, and the fact that bowhunters are not carrying longarms. I know that well placed shot mantra applies to archery too, just like it does to rifles and any other primary. I follow it, practice it, and have not had a problem putting things on the ground without a firearm follow-up. I do not expect one should rely on their bow in the middle of the night from their tent either. As heavy and as fast as you can load for is my recommendation for your defensive .40S&W.
Posted By: cottonstalk Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/20/12
You have some good info in here several places.I am not a fan of the 40 and think it is on the light side,but I understand you have it,are comfortable with it and the shot will be measured in feet.Any gun if a bear comes in your tent to chew on you will be better than nothing.

Having sifted through the thread here are some things that stand out,
"Don't go with light bullets on a bear, they are more compact than an equal size deer & you will need penetration to make them stop wiggling"
"If you shoot a bear with any load from the .40, and it's not a CNS hit. You will see it run of a very long way."
"Choose the tool that stacks the deck in your favor. Once you pull the trigger the reality of what you just did will smack you in the face "
"The man is familar with the handgun that he has, no need to change."
"How long to expire is dependent on bullet placement that is a constant no matter the weapon rifle or handgun"
"With that caliber, he would be MUCH better off with a big, wide, heavy Cast Bullet at around 1000fps."
"Shot placement is critical regardless of the number of legs or the stamp on the side of the slide/barrel. Good hits are the biggest deciding factor."

I have a good bit of experience with black bears,maybe not the level of some others but I get your concern.Chances are in your tent you will have been grabbed or bitten before you know it and I am pretty sure it will be point blank shooting.The biggest factor will be your reaction to the events.If you can keep it together to put a few in his/her noggin you may be hurt but the threat will be over.Good luck and may this post just be a what if scenario.
Posted By: dryflyelk Re: 40 S&W for bear - 09/21/12
To the OP-

One thing you may want to consider is picking up a glock 29. It's what I use as my backcountry gun and I love it. Here's the kicker. If you can only afford one gun, sell the 23, get the 29. You can then shoot .40 or 357 sig out of it with just a barrel swap. Lone wolf has replacement barrels for around $100. It's a great all around option. It is bigger than the 23 by a bit, but not enough to make it too big.
© 24hourcampfire