I've had a copy of this tape for about 25 years along with several others that included other interviews with the Agents involved and an excellent one that was done by the Dade County SO.
Someone recently posted a copy of it on YouTube. The audio is very worn but it is a good watch...I have seen it no less than 50 times...
There is a LOT more to the incident and many questions that will never be answered...but this was the first tape done by the FBI and it is real good to have it to compare to other interviews as history seems to change as time goes on...
I've had a copy of this tape for about 25 years along with several others that included other interviews with the Agents involved and an excellent one that was done by the Dade County SO.
Someone recently posted a copy of it on YouTube. The audio is very worn but it is a good watch...I have seen it no less than 50 times...
There is a LOT more to the incident and many questions that will never be answered...but this was the first tape done by the FBI and it is real good to have it to compare to other interviews as history seems to change as time goes on...
Bob
That's not a link to a video. You sure you got it right?
There is a LOT more to the incident and many questions that will never be answered...
Good video & thanks for posting, I've read a lot about it but never seen the video or the interviews; not sure what you mean by "Lots more to the incident", but it's surely a classic in what not to do.
The FBI was so ill prepared for that stop & the ensuing firefight that it was lost before the 1st shot was fired.
after watching that video I am left asking why in the world adopt the 10mm??? I don't see how that would have done anything. getting rid of the revolvers is the number 1 take away I come up with. the other is have easy access to an ar 15. I think the shotguns were pretty ineffective, they state numorous non fatal buck shot hits, trade the shotgun for an ar 15.
Getting rid of the revolvers is the number 1 take away I come up with.
Wasn't it a round from a revolver that saved the day?
Yes, a good man with a revolver ended that gunfight. The problem that day wasn't really equipment related nearly so much as tactical errors by the FBI agents.
The problem that day wasn't really equipment related nearly so much as tactical errors by the FBI agents.
Well, I guess there are lots of ways to couch the issues & tactics certainly are at the top of the list, but revolvers without either enough ammo or trying to load loose rounds (appears none had speedloaders), a shotgun in the back seat INSIDE a hard case, & leaving vests in the cars, certainly indicates some hardware shortcoming, w/o ever getting into the effectiveness of the calibers being used.
I guess those could be called tactical errors............but I'm also calling them hardware issues.
Times change......can't imagine working without putting my vest on. It's been habit for me since the beginning and it's routine now. Some of my pards that started well before me, though, still don't wear one regardless of policy. It's all what you're used to.
Understood, and I am lucky in that regard. I still figure I'd adapt. Back then, though, it wasn't habit to wear them and mine likely would have been on the seat as well (had I not been in 3rd grade )
Times change......can't imagine working without putting my vest on. It's been habit for me since the beginning and it's routine now. Some of my pards that started well before me, though, still don't wear one regardless of policy. It's all what you're used to.
George
I'm sure you have more insight than I do, but those guys KNEW they were going into a confrontation with armed & dangerous types..........just sayin'.
Like most, I don't have the "why". Vests were a newer concept back then and I doubt cops (and Feebs) of the day were much different than those I know.........we hate change in many cases.
I started my career after two Troopers that I knew from Coos County (where I grew up) were gunned down. That, in northern NH, makes an impression.....
Getting rid of the revolvers is the number 1 take away I come up with.
Wasn't it a round from a revolver that saved the day?
I read a M-13 3" with .38+P 158gr LSWHP but some sources now say a S&W 686 with the same ammo. I read Mireles carried a SIG P220 with Federal 230gr Hydrashoks later.
Getting rid of the revolvers is the number 1 take away I come up with.
Wasn't it a round from a revolver that saved the day?
I read a M-13 3" with .38+P 158gr LSWHP but some sources now say a S&W 686 with the same ammo. I read Mireles carried a SIG P220 with Federal 230gr Hydrashoks later.
Amazing how hard it is to get clarity on a thing like that.
My recollection is that the shotgun stopped the fight, and the revolver just sealed the deal.
Early on, the story was likely told several different ways. I recall an early account of an injured agent stopping the man with the Mini-14 using a single round from his snubby .38 Special.
My recollection is that the shotgun stopped the fight, and the revolver just sealed the deal.
Dr. French Anderson's book, Forensic Analysis of the 1986 FBI Miami Firefight is IMHO the most comprehensive analysis of the fight, and has been endorsed by Ed Mireles and others. It's a true tour de force of the dynamics and physics of the gunfight. I believe it's available through Calibre Press.
I'm not sure that you could say any single gun used by the FBI "saved the day", although Agent Jerry Dove's 115 gr 9mm Silvertip bullet was the shot that turned Platt into a dead man walking and was possibly the best shot the FBI agents got in that day.
This bullet perforated his right arm, severing the brachial artery and causing massive external bleeding, then entered the right hemithorax all the way to the right pulmonary artery and vein roots, which it severed causing massive internal bleeding.
Matix, the other felon at the scene, was severely disabled by two 38 Special GSW's to the upper chest and neck very early in the fight and never fired a shot after sustaining these wounds. I can't recall off the top of my head who fired those rounds for sure, but it might have been Agent Gordon McNeil. Taking Matix out of the fight at the outset was probably critical, considering that the FBI agents barely survived fighting only one opponent, Michael Platt.
Platt's GSW was non-survivable. But his determination was such that he continued to fight even though severely wounded.
Agent Ed Mireles finished the fight by shooting Platt multiple times with his Remington 870 shotgun, but was lucky beyond belief in surviving Platt's volley of revolver shots at him (Platt failed to hit him even once). One of Mireles' buckshot loads shredded Platt's foot, which wound may have caused him to reverse course and get into the "getaway" car before closing on Mireles and killing him. Mireles then advanced on Platt with his revolver, and shot him 5 or 6 times with that weapon. However, by this time Platt was immobile in the "getaway" car and dying from the chest wound inflicted by Dove's 9mm bullet. On autopsy, none of Mireles' final bullets caused critical gunshot wounds.
As others have pointed out, the firearms/calibers used by the FBI weren't the biggest problem that day. The FBI agents made a number of critical errors in tactics. Their marksmanship was pretty good, all things considered, but they brought handguns to a riflefight.
The info I read is a little different. It has Matix taking a 158 grain hollow point from a .38 special in the nasal cavity after firing one round of 12 gauge no. 6 shot. It is believed the this caused him to remain unconscious until he exited the Monte Carlo and went to the agents car.
It also says after Mireles fired on both subjects with 00 buck both were still alive. Mireles then advanced on the car shooting both men three times each with his 686 killing both.
DINK... I am working from memory here, can't find my copy of Anderson's book, but what you've written has jogged my memory and IIRC I believe you're correct, one or possibly two of Mireles' three bullets into Matix was the shot(s) that killed him. But as we both have observed, Matix took two bullets from McNeill's revolver, one of which put him out of the fight very early.
However, I'm pretty sure none of the bullets he put into Platt during the final sequence were considered fatal shots on autopsy. It seems that they had a cumulative effect on him, though, as he expired shortly after Mireles shot him. Platt was all but dead already, Mireles' final shots into him were icing on the cake.
On autopsy, they evacuated more than 1400 cc of blood from Platt's chest. Examination of the crime scene photos led to estimates of about 1000 cc of blood loss from his brachial artery wound. Total blood volume in a man his size would be about 5-5.5 liters, so blood loss of 2.5 liters before he died was astouding. Most people who sustain loss of 40% of their blood volume are unconscious and dead/dying, Platt fought to the point of 50%+ blood loss. That little 9mm bullet from Dove's gun killed him, it just didn't kill him quickly enough.
Platt was a very fit man, and as such was able to force himself to continue to fight until he was almost dead. This is characteristic of fit young men... they just keep going and going despite blood loss/dehydration until they reach the critical point, then they collapse and die very quickly.
I am also going from memory so that may not be exact. I know several people believe if Matix would have been in the fight all seven agents would have been killed.
There are tons of things to be learned from this. I could not imagine going after a pair of killers with 12 rounds of ammo for my duty pistol. Also the agents could of had rifles but failed to take them (they wouldn't check them out of the armory).
It also shows the importance of making those close shots count. When you are 6 to 8 feet apart you better be hitting what is shooting at you or your going to catch a bullet.
I remember watching this on the news on the day it happened when I was a kid. It has always been the gunfight I have study and discussed the most. A lot of young cops now have never heard about it.
I remember Mireles saying that they were using the weapons that they were qualified to use by the FBI.
Matrix fired 1 shot from his 12 gauge before being hit under his left eye. The bullet passing through the sinus cavity and stopping against the vertebrae. This is believed to have disoriented him and he fired no more rounds.
The shot gun rounds were basically ineffective and did little real damage. Pratt did not fire a handgun a Mireles since he dropped it earlier after being hit just behind the wrist.
Dr Franklin's book is very good complete with ex rays and autopsic reports. Had agent Dove's bullet have reached the heart Pratt could not have remained upright more than 30 to 40 seconds according to experts, yet he continued to fight for another 4 1/2 minutes as he bleed out.
Didn't Platt get the revolver from Matix while they were seated in the agents car? Platt then exited the car and shot at Mireles. I believe it was a Dan Wesson .357 that Matix had in a shoulder holster.
Didn't Platt get the revolver from Matix while they were seated in the agents car? Platt then exited the car and shot at Mireles. I believe it was a Dan Wesson .357 that Matix had in a shoulder holster.
Dink
Not that I remember, He was unable to fire it after being hit just behind the wrist, at that point he dropped the revolver and went back to firing the rifle. I do not believe he fired at Mireles. Mireles did not fire for sometime after being hit, he fired first with the shotgun shooting Pratt in the feet shooting under the car. The buckshot hits to Pratt's feet did not knock him down and he got into Grogan and Doves car to drive away, Mires drew his revolver and shooting weak hand advanced firing.
" ... That little 9mm bullet from Dove's gun killed him [Platt], it just didn't kill him quickly enough.
Platt was a very fit man, and as such was able to force himself to continue to fight until he was almost dead. This is characteristic of fit young men... they just keep going and going despite blood loss/dehydration until they reach the critical point, then they collapse and die very quickly.
It's no wonder that Platt and Matix were "fit." Here is their military training.
"Michael Lee Platt: 6'0" - 173 lbs. U.S. Army (#526087944) from 27 June 1972-1 May 1979 Honorable Discharge; E-6 Airborne Ranger trained at Fort Campbell: 9/73-5/75 Also served in M.P. Unit there with Matix. Service notation includes "High Combat Proficiency." MOS: 11B10, 11B20, 11B30
William Russell Matix: 6'1" - 147 lbs. Marine Corps (#2578943) from 7 October 1969-7 July 1972. Honorable Discharge; E-5 U.S. Army (#2578943) from 10 August 1973-9 August 1976. Honorable Discharge; E-5 MOS: Military Police, 101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Kentucky."
Their specialty was armor cars...and they had already killed at least one guard during a robbery...and it was not a "spur of the moment" stop... They knew what they were looking for right down to the license plate number of the stolen Monte Carlo that was taken a few days before when they left the owner for dead out in the Everglades.
Like I said in the original post there is a lot more to this and the more you study the incident the more questions you come up with...
They went out specifically looking for them. Considering the condition in which they were, I don't think they expected to find them. Guns in cases, vests not worn or draped over them. Doesn't sound like guys who expected to actually encounter them. Because they knew they would fight, and they knew they would fight hard. So I've never been convinced they really expected to find them.
Seems like a spur of the moment takedown, can't imagine intentionally going after armed thugs with that little firepower and prep.
Mike
They were on a rolling stake out looking for them. Some agents had automatic weapons, the one that found the bad guys did not. When Pratt and Matrix headed toward a residential area they decision was made to execute a rolling stop because they believed they had been spotted. One car got in front, one behind and one on the side and forced then off of the road.
They went out specifically looking for them. Considering the condition in which they were, I don't think they expected to find them. Guns in cases, vests not worn or draped over them. Doesn't sound like guys who expected to actually encounter them. Because they knew they would fight, and they knew they would fight hard. So I've never been convinced they really expected to find them.
Kevein hit it...they had all the information in the world, saw the pattern these guy had already made and "didn't expect to find them".
I had always guessed this but over on I think it was the 1911 Forums one of the LEOs from Florida who posts over there said he was in an Officer Survival Class and Ed Mirales was a guest speaker. One of the officers in the class asked him point blank "You knew these were bad guys, your vests were on the back seat and shotguns in the cases...what were you thinking". After a period of dead silence in the class Mirales said "we were not really expecting to find them...".
Montana Marine said above that they had a "hardware" problem...in my way of thinking it was a "software" problem...attitude, tactics and execution.
There is a lot of information out there on this and the more you read the more questions you come up with. There are tapes out there of a lot of interviews with the agents and a real good one done by the lead investigator for Dade County...it is a couple of hours long. You can also access the WHOLE FBI file and it is thousands of pages long. As Doc also sated there is an excellent forensic review by Doctor Anderson. I am not sure how hard the book is to get. I spoke to Dr. Anderson on the phone a long time ago and he sent me a copy of the book.
The FBI had plenty of hardware at the scene for the distances involved. Gordon McNeil was shooting at Madix's head at a distance of 8'. In the forensic review it was stated that a .38 Special (158 LSWC +P HP) hit Madix in the face entering his sinus cavity and stunning him. When one looks at the recovered bullet fragment from Madix's head the thing that stuck me is that from it's shape, weight and damage done it is my opinion that the bullet stuck the door frame before hitting Madix in the face. Amazing thing...that bullet fragment disappeared from the evidence... That is also the only hit Madix took while in the stolen vehicle in spite of the number of rounds that hit the car. No one has ever been able to explain how Madix got out of the car and ended up in the passenger seat of Grogan and Dove's car...
I just went over to the FBI website and pulled this off...what a piece of spin...
A Byte Out of History Fatal Firefight in Miami
04/11/11
On the morning of April 11, 1986�25 years ago today�one of the deadliest and most violent shoot-outs in FBI history unfolded just outside of the city of Miami.
FBI agents were leading a massive manhunt for two violent bank robbers�later identified as Michael Lee Platt and William Russell Matix�who were known for using high-caliber firearms and stolen cars. They had murdered several people since the previous October, and Miami police and the FBI were closing in on them.
Placard with agents' names A placard in Miami honors Special Agents Jerry Dove and Benjamin Grogan Miami Special Agents Benjamin Grogan and Jerry Dove�two of the eight agents ultimately directly involved in the firefight (see sidebar below) who were riding together in one of the five pursuing Bureau cars�noticed a stolen, black Monte Carlo connected to the two robbers and began following it.
Also in close pursuit and riding alone, Special Agent Richard Manauzzi tried to steer the Monte Carlo into a tree at the side of 12201 SW 82nd Avenue when he noticed one of the criminals aiming a weapon toward pursuing FBI agents. Three Bureau cars collided with the suspects and forced them off the road, but the felons opened fire.
The events unfolded quickly and horrifically. Special Agent Manauzzi was seriously wounded and immediately sought cover. Special Agent Gordon McNeill�also riding alone�was wounded, but returned fire, striking Matix. Special Agents Gilbert Orrantia and Ronald Risner were pinned in their vehicle on the other side of the street; Orrantia was wounded. Special Agents Edmundo Mireles and John Hanlon had also stopped their car on the opposite side of the street and came under high-powered rifle fire as they tried to approach the felons. Both were seriously wounded. Special Agents Dove and Grogan�despite wounding both criminals in the hail of bullets�were trapped in their car and killed when Platt fired at close range. Platt also shot and incapacitated Agent Hanlon.
Agents Killed or Harmed on April 11, 1986
Benjamin P. Grogan, 53, a 25-year veteran; deceased
Jerry Dove, 30, an agent since 1982; deceased
Gordon G. McNeill, 43, a 19-year veteran; seriously wounded
Edmundo Mireles, Jr., 33, an agent since 1979; seriously wounded
John F. Hanlon, Jr., 48, entered on duty in August 1963; seriously wounded Richard A. Manauzzi, 43, 15 years of service; injured, treated, and released
Gilbert M. Orrantia, 27, on duty since April 1982; injured, treated, and released Severely wounded and struggling to remain conscious, Special Agent Mireles stood up and began firing at the criminals as they entered and tried to escape in Dove and Grogan�s car. He killed both men even as they returned fire.
In the end, the FBI�s casualties were higher than any shoot-out in its history: two dead, three seriously wounded, and two others injured. Only Agent Risner was unhurt.
In the aftermath of the gun battle, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies closely studied the incident. Although wounded, both Platt and Matix were able to continue firing their weapons at the surrounding agents. Our guns had not stopped them. Furthermore, the killers� weapons were more powerful and their rounds could penetrate even the armored vests that some of the agents were wearing.
In response to this tragedy, the FBI made significant changes in the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore, and the incident response training they received.
They were adequately armed, if they all would have rolled out with shotguns instead of handguns. But like you said, the problems were mostly software. Very few ever encounter opposition like Platt and Matix. They were hardcores who were competent at arms, and well armed, with the mindset of never giving up until the fight is over. That level of training and dedication just isn't encountered on the streets (than God) but once in a great while. The game was a mental one, and most of the FBI agents were just not in the game. The one's who were in the game didn't "get into" the game until the firefight was half way over. Platt and Matix were in the game from the first minute. That was the deciding factor.
I just wanted to compliment everyone on the RATIONAL, UNEMOTIONAL discussion in this thread! When I first saw the topic, I was bracing myself for some very discourteous exchanges, but I am pleased to find it just the opposite!
Well done--most of the time this forum is extremely courteous and professional. Sometimes, it can digress, but for the most part, it's one of the best forums here at the 'fire.
They were adequately armed, if they all would have rolled out with shotguns instead of handguns. But like you said, the problems were mostly software. Very few ever encounter opposition like Platt and Matix. They were hardcores who were competent at arms, and well armed, with the mindset of never giving up until the fight is over. That level of training and dedication just isn't encountered on the streets (than God) but once in a great while. The game was a mental one, and most of the FBI agents were just not in the game. The one's who were in the game didn't "get into" the game until the firefight was half way over. Platt and Matix were in the game from the first minute. That was the deciding factor.
Kevin, isn't it funny when we look at the extremes. You make a great point in this post about the software issue. Those guys weren't prepared because they weren't expecting anything. Now widows and family mourn, and sideliners quarterback. Today. When we see guys get out patrol cars with m-4s or Mp-5s, and body armor---because they are expecting the worst. Draw out nay-sayers calling us wanna be rambos. And what not. Damned if you do damned if you don't
They were adequately armed, if they all would have rolled out with shotguns instead of handguns. But like you said, the problems were mostly software. Very few ever encounter opposition like Platt and Matix. They were hardcores who were competent at arms, and well armed, with the mindset of never giving up until the fight is over. That level of training and dedication just isn't encountered on the streets (than God) but once in a great while. The game was a mental one, and most of the FBI agents were just not in the game. The one's who were in the game didn't "get into" the game until the firefight was half way over. Platt and Matix were in the game from the first minute. That was the deciding factor.
I guess they were determined not to go to prison and/or death row.
"We were not really expecting to find them..." Obviously an honest admission from Mirales. His answer should remind us all of the dangers of "just going through the motions." Complacency has killed many LEOs.
Today. When we see guys get out patrol cars with m-4s or Mp-5s, and body armor---because they are expecting the worst. Draw out nay-sayers calling us wanna be rambos.
There's a BIG, BIG difference with everyday patrol cops getting out at a routine stop situation with that kind of weaponry vs making a planned stop on known violent killers like Platt & Matix in Miami by FBI agents.
Going to a gunfight like that would warrant it; routine traffic stops do not........unless one just has the cowboy mentality.
They were adequately armed, if they all would have rolled out with shotguns instead of handguns. But like you said, the problems were mostly software. Very few ever encounter opposition like Platt and Matix. They were hardcores who were competent at arms, and well armed, with the mindset of never giving up until the fight is over. That level of training and dedication just isn't encountered on the streets (than God) but once in a great while. The game was a mental one, and most of the FBI agents were just not in the game. The one's who were in the game didn't "get into" the game until the firefight was half way over. Platt and Matix were in the game from the first minute. That was the deciding factor.
Kevin, isn't it funny when we look at the extremes. You make a great point in this post about the software issue. Those guys weren't prepared because they weren't expecting anything. Now widows and family mourn, and sideliners quarterback. Today. When we see guys get out patrol cars with m-4s or Mp-5s, and body armor---because they are expecting the worst. Draw out nay-sayers calling us wanna be rambos. And what not. Damned if you do damned if you don't
Well this incident and a patrol officer doing a traffic stop are two very different things. Like I said, it's exceedingly rare that any cop, even a full swat team encounters adversaries like Platt and Matix. I'm sure a patrol officer has encountered such, but I've never heard of it; so that ought to tell you how rare it is since I've been doing this gun thing for nearly 30 years and tend to pay attention to notable incidents.
I'm very concerned about the militarization of our police force. Now couple that with Obama (and whomever follows him, be it Republican or Democrat) wanting to put as much funding into domestic forces as the US Military gets (honestly, does the Food & Drug Admin REALLY need a SWAT team?). The direction this country is heading is truly frightening.
Plus I'll take 2-3 backup units over full body armor and an MP-5. The best weapon a cop has is between his ears. When a stop becomes iffy, it's time to call some friends to the party, or disengage. Job 1 is going home at the end of your shift.
I believe cops are adequately armed, but area all adequately trained? I'd say training these days is the highest it's ever been, but the small departments still lack in training budgets.
I'm not opposed to SWAT teams, but they have gotten out of hand. I'm not opposed to rifles in squad cars provided there is adequate training.
The biggest issue for both cops and citizens is the Government's insistence on having a "war on drugs". If we dropped the war on drugs, we could SERIOUSLY scale back the size of our departments, and the need for everyone and their dog having their own SWAT team.
Where did I type traffic stop anywhere. CT hit it though and as a rule of thumb. If we are dispatched to a call where someone involed is armed. Chances are one of us will have a long gun
And in the perspective of wearing armor. A rutine traffic stop isnt that much different than what those guys were undertaking. But as George has said. Times change, and policy and practices develop. I wouldnt think of coming to work without a vest on
Kevin...I am going to have to disagree with you and the FBI when they say that Platt and Madix were "shooters"...while they did do a lot of shooting, look at what they hit during the firefight...to me it was more spay and pray, typical ARMY.
I am out of town right now so I don't have my book but Platt went through several 30 round magazines and what exactly did he have to show for it...
1) When the cars stopped he fired at Manalzie as he ducked out of the car 10' a way...he sustaned some jacket and glass fragments in his back.
2) Fired multiple rounds at Gordon McNeil at a distance of 8' and the totality of all those rounds were..a minor wound to McNeil's right hand which still allowed McNeil to continue firing
3) Mirales RAN INTO the line of fire and was hit by a bullet ment for McNeil and missed...broke Mirales' left arm but didn't knock him out of the fight.
4) McNeil stood up in the middle of the fight and Platt missed the first head shot and then jerked one into McNeil's neck...distance was probably less than ten yards.
4A) Hit Hanlon in the hand at about 15 yards...now tell me he was trying to shoot the gun out of Hanlon's hand...just the luck of spray and pray..
5)Shot a blind Ben Grogan as was he stood there next to the car...distance 10'.
6) Shot Hanlon as he tried to get under the car...distance 1'.
7) Shot Jerry Dove as Dove was kneeling down next to the car looking at his empty gun...distance 8-10'. Secold shot was 1'.
9) From a distance of 40 yards MANAGED to hit Risinger and Oratea's CAR a couple of times. One of the rounds went through the dash, winged Orantea and came to rest in the console...Oratea said he kept the bullet as a souvinier.
Madix...his shotgun was loaded with BIRDSHOT. He fired one round that hit Grogan and Dove's car in the GRILL...
Shooters..ARMY trained bafoons.
On another note...Platt had a Mini14/.223....what if he had had a Mini30 instead? My guess is that:
1) The round that hit Morales would have broken the arm bone and continued right into his upper chest...dead agent.
2) The bullet that hit Gordon McNeil in the neck and bounced off his spine would have broken his neck...dead agent.
3) Point black shot to Hanlon may have caused enough damage to kill him.
4) Round that hit Oratea's car may have had enough leftover energy to kill him.
Did I say they were shooters? I think I said they were competent at arms; which is a very subjective term.
They were adequately competent at arms; really nothing more.
Their shooting certainly wasn't impressive or there would have been more dead FBI agents; especially with a Mini 14 in your hands. Still, most went home with more holes than they were born with.
They were competent, but just barely so. I really think the real thing that sets them apart from all others was their combat mindset of taking hits, even fatal hits, yet staying in the fight. THAT you don't see very often.
Kevin...look of the Carl Draga shooting up in Colebrook, NH...he killed two NHSP Troopers who were unprepared for the encounter.
I also remember a traffic stop involving a father and son anti-government types who killed one of the officers...
Happens often...not a lot but often.
In the 15 years I did in Patrol I went two days without body armor...and always had a backup gun.
Bob
Yes there are traffic stops that end up in dead cops. But how often do you have an adversary who takes several hits and still presses the fight? That's what I was getting at.
Kevin, Research the case of Tpr. Andy Sperr. Andybwas a friend of mine, who rolled up onto a suspicious vehicle that had, unknown to him, just robbed a bank.
Upon exiting his Tahoe Andy was hit. He returned fire planting a whole family of 9mm Gold dots in the turd. Said turd was able to kill Andy as he climbed back in the tahoe. His body was found halfway into the vehicle with the radio mike in his hand.
Said turd is doing life. However I firmly believe that had Andy put a family of .45's in th schitbag he woukd still be here. Apparently so did the NYSP. As they changed shortly after this incident.
Gitem, I'm going to look up Andy Sperr's case when I get back from vacation just to be certain, but the bulk of my experience in terminal effects/ballistics shows that the likelihood of the 9mm being the culprit in Andy's failure to stop the felon is very low.
Ballistically speaking there's very little difference between a 9mm and a 45ACP. Not saying there's NO difference, but the difference is small and specific, and if we're talking 9mm 124 gr GDHP's the difference is even smaller. The overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that it's not what you shoot the turds with, it's where you shoot them. You can put 15 rounds of any service pistol caliber into non-lethal areas and the turd will survive long enough to kill you if he's got the inclination.
I have cases in my files of felons riddled with handgun bullets of every caliber (including 45 ACP) who were not only not killed, but still actively fighting.
This fact illustrates the wisdom of your earlier post about arming patrol officers with heavier weapons... specifically, shotguns and rifles. When the SHTF, your service handgun may end the fight quickly for you, or it may only serve as something you can use to keep your adversary's head down as you fight your way to your REAL weapon (rifle or shotgun). If you're a lone deputy in a rural county--and that description covers a LARGE number of America's LEO's, by the way--you need to have access to a freakin' arsenal. Having a patrol rifle with multiple magazines in the trunk of your car where you can get to it while using the car as cover is a smart idea.
The vast majority of patrol cars have patrol carbines in them nowadays, which is a good thing, IMHO. It's not a sign of "militarization" of police forces, I call horsesh!t on that. It's a matter of giving patrol officers the tools they need to counter the force of a determined adversary armed with a rifle. And since America is a nation of riflemen, this is a sensible and reasonable counter to that potential threat.
When you lose a friend to something like this it's hard to find closure. Finding anything you can blame has utility for your heart and your healing.
But changing your department's load/caliber is rarely the answer. I've been asked to participate in a bunch of these AAR's/debates where the issue cartridge/caliber was being blamed for a bad OIS outcome, and I was able to show every time the cartridge/caliber wasn't at fault. Shot placement was the culprit.
And even when you have incredibly good shot placement, such as Agent Dove's 9mm bullet into Platt's right pulmonary trunk, it still might not kill him quickly enough.
You ever get a chance to take my class, I'll tell you about a guy I call The Bear Man who I took care of in ICU many years ago. Survived being shot twice in the upper chest with a 30-06. I tell all the people who take my training that the first thing you need to do is train as well and as hard as you can, because when the SHTF you will default to your level of unconscious competence/incompetence. The second thing you need to know is that aside from training, the two things you need to be victorious in an armed confrontation are luck and determination. Training, determination to finish the fight, and luck. In that order.
IIRC there were multiple incidents that lead up to the NYSP change in firearms. But Andy's was the last one before the change
We carried .45 glocks for ten years and switched to .357 Sigs back in june or July. Like the sig better but was happy with the .45s
We responded to an attempted suicide once where a kid torched off a load of #6's from a 12 gauge into his mouth but didn't have the agle right and took his face completely off, he survived, unfortunately( and i say that with compassion for him)
I kind of wondered why the Agent across the road behind the car with the 9mm didn't advance up to the other car, but with shots flying I think it's understandable why he stayed behind cover.
I'd like to think I would advance forward if I saw the shooter walking up to attempt to execute a partner, thank God he missed somehow.
Doc, I would only say one thing on your comment about having a backup long gun in the trunk...and that is that is where it is going to be when you die.
In Dallas during the 1970s and 80s when I worked there we had "unsecured" shotguns in a rack in front of the two front seats. The theory was that if you needed a shotgun you were going to need it VERY badly and even just trying to unlock something could be the seconds to get you killed. Once in a while we would loose a shotgun when some scumbag would slip into an unlocked car but the the administration felt it was a small price to pay for officer security. It paid off many times.
Another side to this shootout was the issue of backup guns. Manalzi had taken his primary out of the holster and put it on the seat next to him because somewhere along the line he had been taught that was the thing to do if you were seated in a can and the SWATHTF...Hanlon had done the same thing...and both lost their guns.
Manalzi thought his gun had exited his vehicle because his passenger door had opened while trying to stop Platt/Madix from exiting the area. When he dove out of his car he stated he ran across the street and spent the rest of the firefight looking for his gun. Turns out that when it slid across the seat it got caught between the seat and the doorjam. He had no backup gun to go to.
Hanlon lost his when the car he was driving crashed across the street from the firefight. When he could not find it he pulled his backup Chief and ran to the back of Grogan and Dove's car. He fired five rounds and was hit in the right hand while trying to reload.
Risner was across the street and when he ran his 9mm dry he reholsterd and pulled the Chief from its ankle holster. He took one shot and said to himself..."this ain't going to cut it". He then went to reload his 9mm. (one of the unanswered questions is "where was his reload" I think it was in the glove box)
When authorized I always carried a backup gun and usually a hideout gun. The backup was a S&W 42 and the backup a High Standard .22 Magnum Derringer.
A good friend who was the longest running TAC officer/Sniper in the history of DPD had a little bit different theory. His thought was, anything he carried as a backup was something he would also carry as a primary. His primary was a S&W 25-2 .45 ACP revolver...backup in the left pocket was a Colt Commander...hideout on the left leg was a Officers Model ACP...a steel frame one. After the Department banned large caliber revolvers and SA semis he carried a Glock 17 in the holster and a 19 in the pocket (we have very big pockets).
I've gone to the same. Normally I just carry a Commander, but if I feel the need for a second gun it isn't a 42 any more...it is another Commander. When I travel cross country I usually take a pair of S&W 6906s. And they are always on me to make sure they are never unattended in the car.
Great discussion so far...
And now for a question the answer for which took me years to find out... If you look toward the end of the video you will see a picture of a S&W 5900...that is Jerry Dove's weapon. The commentator is discussing how Jerry ran out of ammo after firing two magazines... If you look close there is divot out of the side of the gun...anyone hazard a guess as to what happened...
I kind of wondered why the Agent across the road behind the car with the 9mm didn't advance up to the other car, but with shots flying I think it's understandable why he stayed behind cover.
I'd like to think I would advance forward if I saw the shooter walking up to attempt to execute a partner, thank God he missed somehow.
Mike
Mike..there has been since day one some discussion on whether Platt really did exit the vehicle and shoot point blank at Mirales....and if you read a lot of the reports Mirales doesn't remember it happening.
I think the reason that Risner didn't cross the street at that time was that he didn't see it happening (if it did happen) because he had to get back into the car to load his empty 9mm.
The reason I think that is:
a) If he had the extra magazine on him why go for the Chief when in the time it took to put the empty 9mm away and draw the Chief he could have pulled the extra magazine and reloaded.
b) If you watch his part of the interview again he states something to the effect that "keep your extra ammunition on you. It will do no good in the glove box when the fight starts". I think he is speaking from experience. Not only do I think the extra ammo was in the glovebox but I think the ammo was still in the box...not a full magazine.
It is one of those questions I had early one and still unanswered...
Doc, I have a hard time believing that a 9mm is equal to a properly loaded 45. I have shot to manny animals to buy into that concept. There are of course doggie loads that do not put either caliber best foot forward, but when properly loaded the 45 is higher on the food chain IME. The advantage to a 9 is the higher magazine capacity.
I believe the gap between a properly loaded 45 and a properly loaded 9mm is the same as the gap between the doggie loads for the respective cartridges as well.
I recognize that it exists, but I don't feel that it is as wide as it was prior to, say, 2000 or so. Modern advancements in bullet manufacture and even more recent advances in propellants, are bringing the 9mm onto the heels of the Super 38 cartridge.
One of the reasons I have begun to give the 9mm another look was a comparison of the 9mm from a 4 inch platform against the 357 magnum in a 2.5 inch platform.
Apples to oranges, I realize, but I also know that an entire generation of men whom I greatly admire thought highly of the 357 out of a 2.5 inch K frame Smith. 125 grain SJHP's will make in the neighborhood of 1250 to 1300ish out of that platform unless my memory fails me.
If you let go a 124 grain +P Speer from a 4 inch barrel, you'll likely see a fuzz over 1200 fps. Is it less than the 357? Yes, but is it by enough to make a performance difference on hostile targets? I don't know, but I am beginning to believe that the ability to deliver additional rounds with less recoil and muzzle blast are worth the trade off.
I know you made no mention of the 357, and like you, I am a great admirer of the 45 acp cartridge. Just thought I'd scribble out the debate I've been piddling with lately.
You mention that the 9mm has the advantage of higher magazine capacity. I would add that for most, the 9mm is easier to shoot than the 45, although for most any adult, the 45 is not difficult to shoot.
Overall, I agree that the 9mm is not equal to a 45. I do believe it is far and away improved from the cartridge it was in 1986 though.
From my perspective there were/are TWO deciding factors in tha gun battle that worked AGAINST the feebies. ONE:BAAADDDD tactics. TWO: maybe even more important-the WILL TO KILL! In face up encounters, the will to kill is the game winner. There are no alibis.
I did a test a few years ago using a 124 grain XTP +P shot into gallon milk jugs full of water I caught the bullet in jug number 3. I shot a 255 grain flat point hard cast +P into the jugs and exited 9. The damage to jug 1 was greater with the 45. This mirrored my experience shooting game with a 9 and that is once I got good expansion for a decent wound channel I lost needed penetration. The Hornady Critical Duty ammo in a 45 ACP is hard to beat for a defensive load IMHO. The recoil is not bad at all yet the bullet expands and penetrates very well
One of the reasons I have begun to give the 9mm another look was a comparison of the 9mm from a 4 inch platform against the 357 magnum in a 2.5 inch platform.
Apples to oranges, I realize, but I also know that an entire generation of men whom I greatly admire thought highly of the 357 out of a 2.5 inch K frame Smith. 125 grain SJHP's will make in the neighborhood of 1250 to 1300ish out of that platform unless my memory fails me.
If you let go a 124 grain +P Speer from a 4 inch barrel, you'll likely see a fuzz over 1200 fps. Is it less than the 357? Yes, but is it by enough to make a performance difference on hostile targets? I don't know, but I am beginning to believe that the ability to deliver additional rounds with less recoil and muzzle blast are worth the trade off.
I know you made no mention of the 357, and like you, I am a great admirer of the 45 acp cartridge. Just thought I'd scribble out the debate I've been piddling with lately.
You mention that the 9mm has the advantage of higher magazine capacity. I would add that for most, the 9mm is easier to shoot than the 45, although for most any adult, the 45 is not difficult to shoot.
Though I love & carry the 45 ACP more than anything else, I do agree that for most AVERAGE shooters, the 9mm is easier to shoot & that 2nd & 3rd & more, shots at speed, will likely be on target faster & with tighter dispersion............not necessarily true for really accomplished shooters, though.
Kevin...look of the Carl Draga shooting up in Colebrook, NH...he killed two NHSP Troopers who were unprepared for the encounter.
I also remember a traffic stop involving a father and son anti-government types who killed one of the officers...
Happens often...not a lot but often.
In the 15 years I did in Patrol I went two days without body armor...and always had a backup gun.
Bob
Bob, that traffic stop was in West Memphis, AR....right across the river from me. Both officers were killed and IIRC, it was a routine traffic stop. Both the father and son had AK-47s. IIRC, the father was pulled to the back of the van a questioned, I believe he was going to be let go, but the son freaked out and exited the van and opened fire. Shot one in the head and the other several times. One of the officers was the police chief's son. A chase began and they were found in the same town in the walmart parking lot. A game warden rammed the van with his truck and SWAT moved in and just opened up on them. Needless to say, neither made it out alive.
Gitem, I'm going to look up Andy Sperr's case when I get back from vacation just to be certain, but the bulk of my experience in terminal effects/ballistics shows that the likelihood of the 9mm being the culprit in Andy's failure to stop the felon is very low.
Ballistically speaking there's very little difference between a 9mm and a 45ACP. Not saying there's NO difference, but the difference is small and specific, and if we're talking 9mm 124 gr GDHP's the difference is even smaller. The overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that it's not what you shoot the turds with, it's where you shoot them. You can put 15 rounds of any service pistol caliber into non-lethal areas and the turd will survive long enough to kill you if he's got the inclination.
I have cases in my files of felons riddled with handgun bullets of every caliber (including 45 ACP) who were not only not killed, but still actively fighting.
This fact illustrates the wisdom of your earlier post about arming patrol officers with heavier weapons... specifically, shotguns and rifles. When the SHTF, your service handgun may end the fight quickly for you, or it may only serve as something you can use to keep your adversary's head down as you fight your way to your REAL weapon (rifle or shotgun). If you're a lone deputy in a rural county--and that description covers a LARGE number of America's LEO's, by the way--you need to have access to a freakin' arsenal. Having a patrol rifle with multiple magazines in the trunk of your car where you can get to it while using the car as cover is a smart idea.
The vast majority of patrol cars have patrol carbines in them nowadays, which is a good thing, IMHO. It's not a sign of "militarization" of police forces, I call horsesh!t on that. It's a matter of giving patrol officers the tools they need to counter the force of a determined adversary armed with a rifle. And since America is a nation of riflemen, this is a sensible and reasonable counter to that potential threat.
THIS!!! It's not what you hit them with (within reason of course), but where you hit them.
I did a test a few years ago using a 124 grain XTP +P shot into gallon milk jugs full of water I caught the bullet in jug number 3. I shot a 255 grain flat point hard cast +P into the jugs and exited 9. The damage to jug 1 was greater with the 45. This mirrored my experience shooting game with a 9 and that is once I got good expansion for a decent wound channel I lost needed penetration. The Hornady Critical Duty ammo in a 45 ACP is hard to beat for a defensive load IMHO. The recoil is not bad at all yet the bullet expands and penetrates very well
Now do the same test with same brand/make loads with 9mm 147 JHP and .45 230 JHP (like Winchester Ranger 147 vs Win Ranger 230). I think you'll find the 9mm out penetrates the .45 ACP, and the .45 ACP tends to make a slightly larger hole.
I do think there is a difference between 9mm & .45 ACP but I just don't see that it's a big enough difference to really matter. Certainly not enough that I would choose a different pistol based purely on caliber. I think it's well established that modern JHP ammo in 9mm is adequate to the task.
But I think there is one advantage that .45 ACP has over them all, and that's muzzle flash. The .45 ACP will typically have the lowest muzzle flash over all the common combat cartridges; yet still have adequate power to get the job done. In 9mm, you often need +P to meet FBI criteria and the +P produces a very significant muzzle flash. The 147's aren't bad at all, and it's a good performing round for LE; but the flash is still larger than most .45 ACP's. .357 Sig does double duty as a flash bang grenade, and .40 S&W has reasonable muzzle flash, but still more than the .45 ACP.
To me, the .45 ACP just has the most going for it, an the most well rounded combat cartridge. The only area where it's "weak" is some barrier penetration tests...still, it meets all the FBI criteria and I happen to think the FBI tests are pretty well thought out.
One of the reasons I have begun to give the 9mm another look was a comparison of the 9mm from a 4 inch platform against the 357 magnum in a 2.5 inch platform.
Apples to oranges, I realize, but I also know that an entire generation of men whom I greatly admire thought highly of the 357 out of a 2.5 inch K frame Smith. 125 grain SJHP's will make in the neighborhood of 1250 to 1300ish out of that platform unless my memory fails me.
If you let go a 124 grain +P Speer from a 4 inch barrel, you'll likely see a fuzz over 1200 fps. Is it less than the 357? Yes, but is it by enough to make a performance difference on hostile targets? I don't know, but I am beginning to believe that the ability to deliver additional rounds with less recoil and muzzle blast are worth the trade off.
I know you made no mention of the 357, and like you, I am a great admirer of the 45 acp cartridge. Just thought I'd scribble out the debate I've been piddling with lately.
You mention that the 9mm has the advantage of higher magazine capacity. I would add that for most, the 9mm is easier to shoot than the 45, although for most any adult, the 45 is not difficult to shoot.
Though I love & carry the 45 ACP more than anything else, I do agree that for most AVERAGE shooters, the 9mm is easier to shoot & that 2nd & 3rd & more, shots at speed, will likely be on target faster & with tighter dispersion............not necessarily true for really accomplished shooters, though.
MM
The 9mm is easier to shoot than the .45 but I think the shooter has more to do with that than the cartridge. Essentially you have shooters who are bothered by recoil and those who aren't and there's no way to tell who will and who wont.
I had a neighbor who was almost 300lbs who just didn't like shooting a .45 ACP, and then my (at that time) 12 year old daughter would shoot my .45 ACP LW Commander and she actually prefered it over the all steel 9mm I bought for her. (and BTW, she could out shoot my large neighbor).
Then there's my 10 year old boy who shoots noticably better when the caliber gets smaller.
So to me it's more about the shooter, than the cartridge.
Personally I really don't notice the difference between a .45 ACP and a 9mm when shooting. I'm sure if put on a timer, my times would be faster with the 9mm, but not a huge difference.
Like I've said before, I choose my LW Commander more for the pistol than the caliber/cartridge. I now have a 9mm top half and soon I'll have a .38 Super top half (and maybe even a 9x23). But if I have the choice of choosing between ANY cartridge and the platform being the same; I'll choose the .45 ACP every time.
Kevin...look of the Carl Draga shooting up in Colebrook, NH...he killed two NHSP Troopers who were unprepared for the encounter.
I also remember a traffic stop involving a father and son anti-government types who killed one of the officers...
Happens often...not a lot but often.
In the 15 years I did in Patrol I went two days without body armor...and always had a backup gun.
Bob
Bob, that traffic stop was in West Memphis, AR....right across the river from me. Both officers were killed and IIRC, it was a routine traffic stop. Both the father and son had AK-47s. IIRC, the father was pulled to the back of the van a questioned, I believe he was going to be let go, but the son freaked out and exited the van and opened fire. Shot one in the head and the other several times. One of the officers was the police chief's son. A chase began and they were found in the same town in the walmart parking lot. A game warden rammed the van with his truck and SWAT moved in and just opened up on them. Needless to say, neither made it out alive.
I live in West Memphis and Chief Paudert son was indeed killed.I know the Game warden as well as another Officer who was wounded in the shooting . The Wal-Mart store is only a mile or so from where the Father and Son shot the 2 men. Terrible thing to happen.
I did a test a few years ago using a 124 grain XTP +P shot into gallon milk jugs full of water I caught the bullet in jug number 3. I shot a 255 grain flat point hard cast +P into the jugs and exited 9. The damage to jug 1 was greater with the 45. This mirrored my experience shooting game with a 9 and that is once I got good expansion for a decent wound channel I lost needed penetration. The Hornady Critical Duty ammo in a 45 ACP is hard to beat for a defensive load IMHO. The recoil is not bad at all yet the bullet expands and penetrates very well
Now do the same test with same brand/make loads with 9mm 147 JHP and .45 230 JHP (like Winchester Ranger 147 vs Win Ranger 230). I think you'll find the 9mm out penetrates the .45 ACP, and the .45 ACP tends to make a slightly larger hole.
I do think there is a difference between 9mm & .45 ACP but I just don't see that it's a big enough difference to really matter. Certainly not enough that I would choose a different pistol based purely on caliber. I think it's well established that modern JHP ammo in 9mm is adequate to the task.
But I think there is one advantage that .45 ACP has over them all, and that's muzzle flash. The .45 ACP will typically have the lowest muzzle flash over all the common combat cartridges; yet still have adequate power to get the job done. In 9mm, you often need +P to meet FBI criteria and the +P produces a very significant muzzle flash. The 147's aren't bad at all, and it's a good performing round for LE; but the flash is still larger than most .45 ACP's. .357 Sig does double duty as a flash bang grenade, and .40 S&W has reasonable muzzle flash, but still more than the .45 ACP.
To me, the .45 ACP just has the most going for it, an the most well rounded combat cartridge. The only area where it's "weak" is some barrier penetration tests...still, it meets all the FBI criteria and I happen to think the FBI tests are pretty well thought out.
I am planing to do just that when time permits.
But the point is that the 45 produces a much better wound channel with a flat point hard cast and has excellent penetration. I can hunt big bore hogs with the same gun that I use use for personal protection with excellent results in both areas.
Yes I have taken smallish hogs with the 9 and was not impressed. I could certainly be happy with a 10mm or 40 S&W.
A look at the 1986 FBI Miami shootout 27 years later
Rob Reed Michigan Firearms Examiner Subscribe
On April 11, 1986, two FBI Special Agents were killed and five others wounded in a gun battle with two heavily armed killers in what would come to be known as the �FBI Miami shootout.�
What started as a surveillance operation would end in one of the most intense law enforcement gunfights in U.S. history. In about four minutes over 140 rounds would be fired and four men would be killed. In addition five of the six surviving FBI agents would be wounded.
Special Agent Edmundo Mireles, Jr., seriously wounded in the gunfight, was lauded by the FBI for his actions that ended the carnage. In this FBI training video, little seen by the general public, he offers advice as relevant today as it was nearly 30 years ago.
�You have to be mentally prepared for a possible violent confrontation,� Mireles said. �I can say with some authority that if you give up, if you lay down to die, than that is exactly what will happen. You will die.�
On that day in April, 1986 eight FBI agents in five cars were part of a rolling stakeout looking for a stolen black 1979 Monte Carlo driven by two unidentified men suspected in a string of violent bank and armored car robberies.
Sometime around 9:30 a.m. Special Agents Benjamin Grogan and Jerry Dove, in the same FBI vehicle, spotted the stolen Monte Carlo in a residential area of Pinecrest, Florida and started to follow it. Once Supervisory Special Agent Gordon McNeill, alone in his own car, realized that the suspects knew they were being followed, he decided to execute a felony traffic stop on the suspect's vehicle before the suspects could escape.
What the FBI didn�t know was that the suspects, Michael Platt and William Matix, were both trained U.S. military veterans, were heavily armed, had killed before, and had no intention of being captured by law enforcement.
The traffic stop resulted in a series of deliberate collisions between three different FBI vehicles and the stolen Monte Carlo. The cars came to rest in close proximity and Platt opened fire with a .223 folding stock Mini-14 rifle before the FBI agents could even exit their vehicles. The chaotic firefight was conducted in poor visibility caused by dust raised during the collisions and trees that cast deep shadows over the area.
With his rifle and military training Platt dominated the firefight against the FBI agents who were armed with S&W revolvers, three S&W 9mm pistols, and one 12 gauge shotgun. (A second shotgun was inaccessible in a case in one of the FBI agent vehicles).
Mattix, who suffered a head wound (and other injuries) early in the fight, was apparently knocked unconscious for most of the gun battle and only fired one or two generally ineffective rounds from a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with birdshot.
During the collisions Special Agents Richard Manauzzi and John Hanlon both lost their revolvers that they had each placed on their seats for quicker access. While Hanlon was able to draw his backup five-shot S&W J-frame to use in the fight, Manauzzi did not carry a back-up gun and spent the rest of the gunfight looking for his revolver.
To make matters worse, Grogan, one of the three SWAT trained agents present armed with a 14 round S&W Model 459 9mm pistol, lost his glasses in the collision. While he probably hit Mattix with at least one round, his impaired uncorrected vision likely reduced the effectiveness of his shooting.
Dove, one of the other SWAT trained agents, fired approximately 20 rounds from his S&W Model 459 during the fight. He hit Platt in the chest as Platt was climbing out of his car. Dove�s 9mm bullet caused Platt to suffer what was later described as a �non survivable� wound. Unfortunately, even with a collapsed lung and with blood pooling in his chest, Platt continued to fight.
During the fight Platt continued to move and use cover while shooting in different directions at different agents as he saw them. He wounded Manauzzi and shot McNeill in the hand as he attempted to reload his revolver. He shot Mireles in the left forearm as Mireles came up to engage him with a 12 gauge shotgun. He shot McNeil again, in the neck this time, which left the agent paralyzed for several hours.
Platt killed Grogan and Dove after moving around the car they were using as cover while they were trying to fix Dove�s pistol, which had been hit by one of Platt�s .223 rounds and rendered inoperable. Neither Grogan nor Dove apparently heard the warnings shouted by other agents in the fight at that time.
The whole time Platt was also taking hits from various agents. In addition to the chest shot, Dove also hit Platt in the thigh and foot. He was also likely hit by Special Agents Ronald Risner (also SWAT trained and with a S&W 459) and Gilbert Orrantia,
After killing Grogan and Dove, and severely wounding Hanlon who was nearby, Platt got in the dead agent�s car in an attempt to get away. At some point Matix regained consciousness and got in the passenger seat of the FBI vehicle.
At this point Mireles re-entered the fight. He fired and reloaded his shotgun, one handed, until it was empty, and wounded Platt in the foot. He then dropped the shotgun, drew his S&W revolver, and fired as he approached the car. One of his shots severed Matix�s spine and another entered Platt�s chest and bruised his spinal column. Both bad guys were now out of the fight.
As a result of the gunfight the FBI instituted changes in equipment, methodology, and training. They decided to replace revolvers with semi-autos so agents would have the benefits of having more ammo in the gun as well as easier reloading. Because Dove�s 9mm Silvertip round did not penetrate Platt�s chest far enough to reach his heart they developed a new ammunition testing protocol that emphasized penetration. They adopted a S&W pistol for the new 10mm round and eventually developed a lighter 10mm load that directly led to the more popular .40 S&W cartridge.
Even now, almost three decades later, lessons learned from the Miami shootout resonate with law enforcement and armed citizens.
Both the good guys and the bad guys showed incredible determination to fight on despite serious wounds.
�If you are shot or injured it does not necessarily mean that you will die,� Mireles said in the training video. "I was wounded twice and I knew that my injury, my injury to my left arm was serious, but it was not immediately life threatening, so I just basically ignored it.�
Risner, the only agent not wounded that day, said this in the training video, �Take your training seriously. You play how you practice. And the other thing is be prepared for any eventually, as it can happen anytime.�
Unfortunately, over time myths and misinformation have obscured some of the basic truths about the gunfight. The good news is there is more reliable information available now than in the past. Anyone interested in learning more about the incident should check out the following sources.
***
The Gun Zone Ultimate After Action Report
An excellent review of the incident and a good place to begin.
The official FBI report
The official report is heavily redacted and a few pages are out of order. It is still a must-read for anyone who wants to go to the source.
FBI Training Videos - "Firefight" is a FBI recreation of the shootout, with commentary and "Personal Reflections" is a roundtable interview with several FBI participants. (Note both are combined in one video at this link). These are a must see.
The Ayoob Files - 25 Years After the FBI Firefight: The Late Emerging
Massad Ayoob offers a synopsis and some newer info
An Interview with Retired FBI Agent John Hanlon on the 1986 Firefight in Miami
Massad Ayoob podcast interview with participant John Hanlon
Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Miami Firefight by W. French Anderson, M.D.
An Amazon link to a well done forensic study of the event. Be aware the author does make some unproven assumptions and conclusions in what is generally an excellent resource.
Firearms Tactical Institute - A review of "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight by W. French Anderson, M.D.
A detailed review of the work that discusses the findings in depth
Miami Archives - Reprint of April 11, 1986 Miami News article on the gun. An interesting example of the contemporary reporting.
after watching that video I am left asking why in the world adopt the 10mm???
FEMALES in a man's job...
Which led us to the "10mm Light" AKA 40 S&W. Doc you and I have discussed caliber and weapon carry and like you, both my carry guns are Glocks now in 357 Sig and 45 ACP. For those of you in the know, I would be interested in your opinion of the 357 Sig (125gr JHP). All I have to go on is what I read in the literature. jorge
I would be interested in your opinion of the 357 Sig (125gr JHP). All I have to go on is what I read in the literature. jorge
I guess you're already aware that it comes close to reproducing the performance of the vaunted .357 Magnum in its most effective (on humans) loading. Theoretically, the bottleneck shape should also improve feeding reliability vs the standard straight-walled case shape.
Thanks jwp...I had not seen that one before... I do have some observations on some of his comments however...
"On that day in April, 1986 eight FBI agents in five cars were part of a rolling stakeout looking for a stolen black 1979 Monte Carlo driven by two unidentified men suspected in a string of violent bank and armored car robberies." There were several more cars and agents who were part of that rolling stakeout that did not make it to the scene. From what I have read there is some question exactly what some of those agents were doing and where they were.
"Sometime around 9:30 a.m. Special Agents Benjamin Grogan and Jerry Dove, in the same FBI vehicle, spotted the stolen Monte Carlo in a residential area of Pinecrest, Florida and started to follow it." Incorrect. Grogan and Dove spotted the vehicle in the commercial area on South Dixie Highway. As they followed the car more agents fell in behind and they were spotted by the suspects who then left SDH in an attempt to confirm the tail. That is when they entered the residential neighborhood.
"What the FBI didn�t know was that the suspects, Michael Platt and William Matix, were both trained U.S. military veterans, were heavily armed, had killed before, and had no intention of being captured by law enforcement." Again mostly incorrect. Although they didn't know the suspects names the agents knew that they were armed with more than handguns because of the prior robberies. They knew they were violent because of the history of the robberies and the fact that they had killed civilians to get the cars to be used in the robberies. The car they were looking for had been taken in robbery/attempted murder just a few days before. The agents also believed that because of the precision of the robberies that the suspects could have a military background.
"To make matters worse, Grogan, one of the three SWAT trained agents present armed with a 14 round S&W Model 459 9mm pistol, lost his glasses in the collision. While he probably hit Mattix with at least one round, his impaired uncorrected vision likely reduced the effectiveness of his shooting." "likely" is a kind term...realistically it severely impacted his shooting. If you look at the evidence photos the rear of the stolen Monte Carlo looks like Swiss Cheese. All those holes could have only come from Grogan and Dove who were firing from directly behind the vehicle. I have never been able to find out exactly how many rounds Grogan fired, how many rounds he had on him going into the fight, how many live rounds were recovered form his gun and person vs. how many he is credited for.
"Dove, one of the other SWAT trained agents, fired approximately 20 rounds from his S&W Model 459 during the fight." Apparently this writer is parroting information he read without looking a little deeper. S&W 459s hold 14 rounds. It is well established and stated in the FBI tape that Dove ran out of ammo, one empty magazine found on the passenger floor of his vehicle and the other still in the gun. Last time I looked, 14 +14=28 (plus 1 for 29 if you top off the magazine)...unless you add like the FBI. The simple explanation is the FBI only counted the empty casings that they recovered that could be identified as coming from a specific gun at the scene... Only 20 of the 9mm casings found could be identified as coming from Dove's gun so in the report that is what he got credit for firing... They did the same thing to Risner. I don't have my book here but they only gave him credit for firing something like 10 rounds of 9mm and one .38 special. Yet he emptied a 14 round magazine and after firing one round of .38 went to find more 9mm.. When it was pointed out to the FBI that the numbers didn't add up their comment was that "souvenir hunters probably took some of the casings" but never did amend the figures. (I can't make this $HIT up, I don't have that good an imagination) One of the possible reasons this was done was for "statistics". Dove is believed to hit Platt three times as he crawled out the window of the car onto the hood of the vehicle parked next to the suspect vehicle. 3 out of 20 is a 15% hit ratio. 3 out of 29 is only 11%. This is how beancounters think...
"He wounded Manauzzi and shot McNeill in the hand as he attempted to reload his revolver." Manauzzi was hit by bullet and glass fragments in the back when Platt fired at him from the suspect vehicle through the closed passenger door glass of Manauzzi's vehicle. Gordon McNeil had only fired 3-4 rounds during the initial encounter across the hood of Manauzzi's vehicle when he was hit in the hand. The wound did not stop him from continuing to fire the rest of the rounds in the cylinder. It was only then that McNeil withdrew to reload.
"Platt killed Grogan and Dove after moving around the car they were using as cover while they were trying to fix Dove�s pistol, which had been hit by one of Platt�s .223 rounds and rendered inoperable. Neither Grogan nor Dove apparently heard the warnings shouted by other agents in the fight at that time." Not even close to true. Grogan was standing at the left read quarter of his vehicle when shot from the other side of the vehicle by Platt. As Platt moved around the rear of the vehicle he encountered Hanlon who had been hit in the right hand and was trying to push himself up under the rear of the vehicle. Platt then shot Hanlon once in the groin and moved around the left rear corner of the vehicle when Grogan's body was. Dove was kneeling near the left rear passenger door and was shot once in the back. He went flat to the ground. As Platt approached, Dove tried to push himself up and Platt put another round through Dove's back from directly above him. Grogan and Dove were not trying to fix Doves 459...because it wasn't broke...it was just out of ammo with the empty magazine still in it... The simple fix would have been for Ben Grogan to give Jerry Dove his extra magazine if he still had one... So how did Dove's gun get the bullet damage to the slide...think about it.
For someone who wrote this 27 years after the fact to get so much incorrect tells me he listened to others instead of doing the research himself...
after watching that video I am left asking why in the world adopt the 10mm???
FEMALES in a man's job...
Which led us to the "10mm Light" AKA 40 S&W. Doc you and I have discussed caliber and weapon carry and like you, both my carry guns are Glocks now in 357 Sig and 45 ACP. For those of you in the know, I would be interested in your opinion of the 357 Sig (125gr JHP). All I have to go on is what I read in the literature. jorge
Like Hawkeye said...the .357 SIG comes as close as it gets in a semi to a .357 Magnum which is the round by which all others are judged. The only two probably more effective would be a 10mm with full loads in 135-165 grain weight and the 9x23 Winchester that throws a 125 grain bullet at 1450 fps which is about 75-100 fps faster than a SIG will do with the same weight bullet...
I reiterate what I said previously. A cool head and hand with a 32 Mag 6 gun would be as deadly as anything or anyone who were in that fight.
..until you have to put it through a windshield, trunklid, car door or just a standard wood door....
Of all the gun carriers I know there are only a couple of "gunfighters". As my brother once said..."there are welders and there are people that weld"....
IMO....the software problems drove the hardware problems......mistakes on top of mistakes.
A HS buddy of mine just retired in 2013 from Miami/Dade County. In school we and our buddies were all gun lovers and still are. Always studied everything we could about firearms and ammo. My buddy ALWAYS carried extra guns, extra ammo. He NEVER used anything owned by the dept....anything my buddy had in his car was his.....shotgun, AR15, primary sidearm, backup sidearm, .308 bolt gun in trunk, full size binocs. He always upgraded his equipment when something better came out. He is more like Jim Cirillo's ideal canidate for a Stakeout officer. That is what these FBI guys lacked and unfortunately, they and their families paid a steep price.
after watching that video I am left asking why in the world adopt the 10mm???
FEMALES in a man's job...
Which led us to the "10mm Light" AKA 40 S&W. Doc you and I have discussed caliber and weapon carry and like you, both my carry guns are Glocks now in 357 Sig and 45 ACP. For those of you in the know, I would be interested in your opinion of the 357 Sig (125gr JHP). All I have to go on is what I read in the literature. jorge
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The .357 Sig is a very competent round with 125 grain JHP's. It does everything a +P 9mm will do only better. The only down side to the .357 Sig is the muzzle flash, which is pretty impressive, especially when compared to the .45 ACP.
I know you've mentioned flash in the past and you're unlikely to find a bigger .45 fan around. That said, I've shot the Sig plenty in low/"no" light and haven't "seen" (or not seen ) enough difference to worry about. My eyes, of course, and YMMV.
Another story but one that shows it ain't over until it's over. LAPD officer shot center mass at point blank range with a .357 mag and still killed the perp and survived and went back on duty.
RJM, the most effective gunfighter in recent times was Jim Cirillo. He used a S&W Mod 10 HB with NYPD ISSUE ammunition which at that time was a 158 SWC or a 158 RN. Crappy ammo by our standards, but he racked up a score of bloody wins. Jim was a killer. To win gunfights that is what one has to be. No hesitation,no reflection. Just cool head and purpose. He won. Hardware was marginal. You'd like laugh-all the way to the grave because he would win.
after watching that video I am left asking why in the world adopt the 10mm???
FEMALES in a man's job...
Which led us to the "10mm Light" AKA 40 S&W. Doc you and I have discussed caliber and weapon carry and like you, both my carry guns are Glocks now in 357 Sig and 45 ACP. For those of you in the know, I would be interested in your opinion of the 357 Sig (125gr JHP). All I have to go on is what I read in the literature. jorge
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The .357 Sig is a very competent round with 125 grain JHP's. It does everything a +P 9mm will do only better. The only down side to the .357 Sig is the muzzle flash, which is pretty impressive, especially when compared to the .45 ACP.
Jorge, most of what I have to say about the 357 SIG is what I read in the literature, as well.
The 357 SIG is no better a "manstopper" than any of the other service calibers. The higher-than-9mm velocity might make a difference in isolated instances, but in the main it's just a 9mm on steroids. GSW's from the SIG are no more impressive than from any other handgun caliber, in my experience, and the literature bears this out.
As Kevin points out, what you gain in velocity in the 357 vs the 9mm you lose in increased muzzle flash, muzzle blast, recoil impulse, and cost of ammunition. The equation doesn't balance for me.
I know you've mentioned flash in the past and you're unlikely to find a bigger .45 fan around. That said, I've shot the Sig plenty in low/"no" light and haven't "seen" (or not seen ) enough difference to worry about. My eyes, of course, and YMMV.
George
George, I think it depends on the ammo you're using. Many of the duty/carry loads available today use low-flash powders, which makes the flash question a lot less of an issue regardless of caliber.
We did a night shoot at an instructor class some years ago, about '05 or so, and we all stood to the side of the demo shooter as he went through a pile of guns in various calibers with a hodgepodge of ammo, and there were striking differences among the various offerings. Federal HST was the lowest-flashing ammo demo'd, and GDHP and WW Ranger Talon were almost as low (these were all 40 S&W loads, IIRC). Caliber was less of an issue than was the specific brand of ammo fired.
Just for comparison, I demo'd a 357 Mag revolver loaded with old Super Vel 125 gr loads. Talk about a fire-breathing dragon that completely degrades your night vision!!
I consider the "vice" to be a virtue. If the blast and flash have some effect on me, it will have a much worse effect on an adversary. Between blast,flash and bullet, that would discombubulate just about anyone. I would KNOW what was coming,he/she would not. I win.
Doc, I have a hard time believing that a 9mm is equal to a properly loaded 45. I have shot to manny animals to buy into that concept. There are of course doggie loads that do not put either caliber best foot forward, but when properly loaded the 45 is higher on the food chain IME. The advantage to a 9 is the higher magazine capacity.
John, your experience in killing animals is just that: YOUR experience. One man's observations in the field are no more than that. And I'm not arguing with your observations, I'm just saying your sample size is too small to be statistically significant.
This is why there are databases on street shootings compiled by law enforcement agencies all over America: to get definitive answers to what works and what doesn't. The database in California that I have had a small bit of access to is enormous. These databases all prove the same conclusion: all of the handgun service calibers are roughly equivalent in terms of stopping power.
Originally Posted by jwp475
I did a test a few years ago using a 124 grain XTP +P shot into gallon milk jugs full of water I caught the bullet in jug number 3. I shot a 255 grain flat point hard cast +P into the jugs and exited 9. The damage to jug 1 was greater with the 45. This mirrored my experience shooting game with a 9 and that is once I got good expansion for a decent wound channel I lost needed penetration. The Hornady Critical Duty ammo in a 45 ACP is hard to beat for a defensive load IMHO. The recoil is not bad at all yet the bullet expands and penetrates very well
You're comparing apples to oranges here, John. If you want to do a true comparison, load a 9mm 147 gr hard cast flat nosed bullet and run that head-to-head against the 45. I've done so, in gelatin, and the 9mm outpenetrated the 45 by quite a bit.
As for Hornady Critical Defense ammo, it's okay but not at the top of my list in any caliber. Speer GDHP and Winchester Ranger Talon have consistently been the best-performing service loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP for years and years. Hornady's loads have been really inconsistent... they've changed bullets and bullet construction several times, so unless you actually test the loads you're carrying, you won't know whether what you're carrying is good or not.
I consider the "vice" to be a virtue. If the blast and flash have some effect on me, it will have a much worse effect on an adversary. Between blast,flash and bullet, that would discombubulate just about anyone. I would KNOW what was coming,he/she would not. I win.
As long as you incapacitate your adversary with the first shot/double-tap. Followup shots are a b!tch with the 357 Mag, I've found in night matches and training.
I fooled around some with the .400 Corbon, which is a bottleneck case, like the .357 Sig. It's a pretty touchy round, with plenty of quirks, especially if you handload it.
If for some reason someone decided a 9mm +P wasn't enough, then I think the .38 Super or the 9x23 would be a better choice than the 357 Sig
RJM, the most effective gunfighter in recent times was Jim Cirillo. He used a S&W Mod 10 HB with NYPD ISSUE ammunition which at that time was a 158 SWC or a 158 RN. Crappy ammo by our standards, but he racked up a score of bloody wins. Jim was a killer. To win gunfights that is what one has to be. No hesitation,no reflection. Just cool head and purpose. He won. Hardware was marginal. You'd like laugh-all the way to the grave because he would win.
Doc, I have a hard time believing that a 9mm is equal to a properly loaded 45. I have shot to manny animals to buy into that concept. There are of course doggie loads that do not put either caliber best foot forward, but when properly loaded the 45 is higher on the food chain IME. The advantage to a 9 is the higher magazine capacity.
John, your experience in killing animals is just that: YOUR experience. One man's observations in the field are no more than that. And I'm not arguing with your observations, I'm just saying your sample size is too small to be statistically significant.
This is why there are databases on street shootings compiled by law enforcement agencies all over America: to get definitive answers to what works and what doesn't. The database in California that I have had a small bit of access to is enormous. These databases all prove the same conclusion: all of the handgun service calibers are roughly equivalent in terms of stopping power.
Originally Posted by jwp475
I did a test a few years ago using a 124 grain XTP +P shot into gallon milk jugs full of water I caught the bullet in jug number 3. I shot a 255 grain flat point hard cast +P into the jugs and exited 9. The damage to jug 1 was greater with the 45. This mirrored my experience shooting game with a 9 and that is once I got good expansion for a decent wound channel I lost needed penetration. The Hornady Critical Duty ammo in a 45 ACP is hard to beat for a defensive load IMHO. The recoil is not bad at all yet the bullet expands and penetrates very well
You're comparing apples to oranges here, John. If you want to do a true comparison, load a 9mm 147 gr hard cast flat nosed bullet and run that head-to-head against the 45. I've done so, in gelatin, and the 9mm outpenetrated the 45 by quite a bit.
As for Hornady Critical Defense ammo, it's okay but not at the top of my list in any caliber. Speer GDHP and Winchester Ranger Talon have consistently been the best-performing service loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP for years and years. Hornady's loads have been really inconsistent... they've changed bullets and bullet construction several times, so unless you actually test the loads you're carrying, you won't know whether what you're carrying is good or not.
Agreed. Gold Dot and Ranger T are top performers, to which I would add Federal HST and Winchester PDX1 (which is just the repackaged FBI duty load). Hornady's Critical Defense would not pass FBI protocols. That's why they came up with Critical Duty. I'm not yet aware on any data on street performance for this newer load, though. Are you?
I want to thank RJM for his detailed analysis of this shootout. It's sad to see that even years later, it's really tough to get a detailed, clear idea as to what happend and why. But, thanks to RJM, I think we've come to a point where we have a clear idea what happend and why. I thank you for that, sir. E
I consider the "vice" to be a virtue. If the blast and flash have some effect on me, it will have a much worse effect on an adversary. Between blast,flash and bullet, that would discombubulate just about anyone. I would KNOW what was coming,he/she would not. I win.
So you consider potential night blindness to be okay as long as the other guy has it too?
I also think it's important to remember that this was 28 years ago, and the performance of handgun cartridges are considerably different today and it probably wouldn't be the best idea to make deep judgments about handguns/ammunition performance based on this event. Yes, there are lessons, but you should think long and hard as to how best to apply those lessons.
I want to thank RJM for his detailed analysis of this shootout. It's sad to see that even years later, it's really tough to get a detailed, clear idea as to what happened and why. But, thanks to RJM, I think we've come to a point where we have a clear idea what happened and why. I thank you for that, sir. E
As to the side discussion about muzzleflash and nightblindness...it doesn't happen.
NH K9 and I both shoot on the same indoor Range where I have run NRA and tactical shooting classes, 4-6 classes a month for 22 years. A lot of the shooting is low light or no light both with and without flashlights.
I have seen everything from a .22 Short to a .500 S&W fired in that range and the only one that causes a "distraction" is the .500...that is a fireball to the extent one can not keep their eyes open.
With all the rest be it non-flash-suppressed 9mm or .45 ACP, muzzleflash, loss of "night vision", diminished ability for followup shots is a NON-ISSUE. And one of the worst of the worst for muzzleflash is the .38 Super...
We have run tests not only of muzzleflash but also being hit in the face with a 650 lumen flashlight both on high and strobe... One thing that test confirmed is that don't expect an "disorient" someone with one of these tacticool lights as it ain't going to happen. The guy will have a great aiming point however.
Ageing eye may take longer to adjust to the dark and may not see as well as younger eyes but once adjusted a muzzleflash, either yours or his, is the least of your worries...
Doc, I have a hard time believing that a 9mm is equal to a properly loaded 45. I have shot to manny animals to buy into that concept. There are of course doggie loads that do not put either caliber best foot forward, but when properly loaded the 45 is higher on the food chain IME. The advantage to a 9 is the higher magazine capacity.
John, your experience in killing animals is just that: YOUR experience. One man's observations in the field are no more than that. And I'm not arguing with your observations, I'm just saying your sample size is too small to be statistically significant.
This is why there are databases on street shootings compiled by law enforcement agencies all over America: to get definitive answers to what works and what doesn't. The database in California that I have had a small bit of access to is enormous. These databases all prove the same conclusion: all of the handgun service calibers are roughly equivalent in terms of stopping power.
Originally Posted by jwp475
I did a test a few years ago using a 124 grain XTP +P shot into gallon milk jugs full of water I caught the bullet in jug number 3. I shot a 255 grain flat point hard cast +P into the jugs and exited 9. The damage to jug 1 was greater with the 45. This mirrored my experience shooting game with a 9 and that is once I got good expansion for a decent wound channel I lost needed penetration. The Hornady Critical Duty ammo in a 45 ACP is hard to beat for a defensive load IMHO. The recoil is not bad at all yet the bullet expands and penetrates very well
You're comparing apples to oranges here, John. If you want to do a true comparison, load a 9mm 147 gr hard cast flat nosed bullet and run that head-to-head against the 45. I've done so, in gelatin, and the 9mm outpenetrated the 45 by quite a bit.
As for Hornady Critical Defense ammo, it's okay but not at the top of my list in any caliber. Speer GDHP and Winchester Ranger Talon have consistently been the best-performing service loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP for years and years. Hornady's loads have been really inconsistent... they've changed bullets and bullet construction several times, so unless you actually test the loads you're carrying, you won't know whether what you're carrying is good or not.
The 9 can be loaded with hard cast and made to penetrate better no doubt but the wound channel is then less than desirable. That is the advantage of the 45. The Hornady "Critical Duty" is excellent. Not the "Critical a Defense" which expands too much and gives up penetration. The Gold Dot is OK if you do not have to shoot through barriers.
My experience on game for 40 plus years is very enlightening, wound channels and depth of penetration does not lie.
I consider the "vice" to be a virtue. If the blast and flash have some effect on me, it will have a much worse effect on an adversary. Between blast,flash and bullet, that would discombubulate just about anyone. I would KNOW what was coming,he/she would not. I win.
So you consider potential night blindness to be okay as long as the other guy has it too?
I consider the "vice" to be a virtue. If the blast and flash have some effect on me, it will have a much worse effect on an adversary. Between blast,flash and bullet, that would discombubulate just about anyone. I would KNOW what was coming,he/she would not. I win.
So you consider potential night blindness to be okay as long as the other guy has it too?
Kevin, not on the Police job, but I AM a survivor of many gunfights. Just like why I preferred an M14 over any M16 because I shot THROUGH the "cover" my adversary hid behind. I won,they lost. I always have a dirty trick and I am around to drive folks nuts as a result.
Kevin, not on the Police job, but I AM a survivor of many gunfights. Just like why I preferred an M14 over any M16 because I shot THROUGH the "cover" my adversary hid behind. I won,they lost. I always have a dirty trick and I am around to drive folks nuts as a result.
Could not agree more penetration along with good wound channels are tour friends.
PLUS the really dirty trick was that I procured a couple of boxes of linked 7,62 from a tank crew. Standard issue for tank coaxial MG is AP. Play dirty and live.
PLUS the really dirty trick was that I procured a couple of boxes of linked 7,62 from a tank crew. Standard issue for tank coaxial MG is AP. Play dirty and live.
Can't say it enough penetration, penetration and more penetration is your friend when the SHTF and the going gets tuff.
JWP, it really just underlines the mindset that the FBI Agents did NOT have. When you are looking for heavily armed robbers who were suspected of at least one,maybe two murders already, the approach mindset must be sharper. As a wiser man than I once said, a good plan goes out the window when the first shots are fired(paraphrased). The incident underscores that the base of real police work is a "come as you are" party and one needs to have certain mental approaches to make it through to the other end. One can blame equipment failures but it really boils down to the men, their individual abilities and their mindset. This one was a disaster. One would also do well to keep in mind that just about all training is based on correcting previous perceived mistakes.
One can blame equipment failures but it really boils down to the men, their individual abilities and their mindset.
Jim, I couldn't agree with you more, and your post reminds me of the times when I saw knee jerk reactions to change or withdraw equipment completely when in fact trouble arose from a human failure in a given situation.
Those days are behind me now, but I still worry about the kids doing the job, and our young people overseas.
That's what've noticed as well. Muzzle flash from a 9mm, a hot .38 Special, or a .45 ACP never affected my ability to shoot at night or under poor light conditions. BTW, most nightime shootings in cities have some light. Enough to pick up the front sight on a Smith 29 or the flu. orange paint I put on my 1911's front sight. Did one shooting on a well lit street with a 4 inch, .44 Magnum. I had no trouble seeing the sights. E
[quote=The_Real_Hawkeye] I read a M-13 3" with .38+P 158gr LSWHP but some sources now say a S&W 686 with the same ammo. I read Mireles carried a SIG P220 with Federal 230gr Hydrashoks later.
The 9 can be loaded with hard cast and made to penetrate better no doubt but the wound channel is then less than desirable. That is the advantage of the 45. The Hornady "Critical Duty" is excellent. Not the "Critical a Defense" which expands too much and gives up penetration. The Gold Dot is OK if you do not have to shoot through barriers.
Thanks for the correction. You're right, "Critical Duty" is not the same as "Critical Defense".
However, I'll stand by my original assertion that Hornady has not shown the consistency in their "duty" ammo loadings that Winchester and Speer/Federal have shown over 2+ decades. I load Hornady XTP bullets in some loads and calibers in my handloads, but these are bullets/loads I've tested thoroughly myself. I still do not trust their factory ammunition.
As for GDHP's not shooting well through intermediate barriers, I strongly disagree. I've assisted/witnessed Federal ballisticians in testing/demo'ing numerous handgun loads into gelatin through intermediate barriers from windshield glass to automobile steel, and they do very well. All of the top bonded bullets (Ranger Talon, Remington GS, etc) perform more or less equally well.
Had Jerry Doves's bullet had enough penetration to have reached the heart no FBI agents would have been killed and probably none even wounded. That is what continually gets missed in theses discussions.
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