That is what I called my 10mm this afternoon when another pistol packin patriot asked me. He was carrying a SIG 40, so when I answered about my handgun I tossed out the moniker "40 super" which caught him off guard.

It seems to me that the 10mm is to the 40 short and weak, in many ways what a 38 Super is to the old 38ACP and what the 357 Magnum is to the 38 special. Same-same with the 44 special and 44 magnum. The velocity gains (when the 10mm is loaded to its originally designed pressures) has velocity and power increases right in line with the difference between the other examples I cited in 38/357 etc. As a matter of course, my 180gr loads for the 10mm are running the same real world velocities as 125gr 357 Magnum loads.

So, I think I will start calling my RIA Tac Ten a 40 Super. Saying "10 mm" Just does not convey the realities of the power and real performance of this great round. It SOUNDS like "just a tiny little bit bigger than a 9mm" which is of course way off the mark. What do you all think??

Calling the 10mm "40 Super" would be incorrect, since their is already a cartridge with the 40 Super moniker. The 40 Super is based on the 45 Winchester mag round.


http://www.underwoodammo.com/40super.aspx

I agree. It also is a misnomer since the 38 ACP predates the longer and more powerful 38 Super. The longer and more powerful 10mm OTOH, predates its shorter, weaker sibling, the 40 S&W. The "10mm" already has a long list of synonyms.

Callit the .40 Super-Duper and tell'em all to go to hell.

SM, as much as I share your enthusiasm for the 10mm Colt - I have a G-30SF with the right 10mm pieces and ammo at hand and a Colt DE in the safe - minimizing other cartridges isn't really needed to recognize the great performance of the 10 mm both for defense and field.

As catchy as the 'short & weak' monicker may seem, it isn't really accurate as the 40S&W cartridge is a very good real world defensive performer - my 40S&W Shield is enough for EDC when the situation requires it. And I bet few miscreants would be willing to face the business end of a 40S&W thinking that it doesn't have enough power to do its work.

As to the 38ACP/38Super and 38Spl/357Mag comparisons, IMO they miss the mark. Neither of the older cartridges were ever considered adequate defensive performers, as both were markedly lower pressure loadings of the latter, but they were all that was possible with the technology of the time and both represented performance gains over previously available defensive cartridges.

BTW EthanE, IIRC, the case length of the 38ACP is the same as the 38Super, but the chamber pressures are different.

Calling the 40 S&W weak doesn't make the performance of the 10 MM Colt any more or less than what it is - an excellent. modern, high intensity defensive round. But so is the 40 Smith & Wesson. Live and let live IMHO YMMV.

The 40 UBER!

jfc....

Well said...

Every time I hear the ".40 short and weak" it causes me to laugh my ass off.

I don't have a problem with your nickname for the 10mm, but I don't agree with your comparisons of it to the 40 S&W.
First of all, the 40 S&W has a SAAMI pressure standard of 35,000 psi. The 10mm, in a slightly longer, .85 vs. .992 inch case, has a SAAMI standard of 37,500 psi. That isn't a big difference. The .38 Special vs. the .357 Magnum have a much wider pressure difference. The .38 Special is rated at either 17,000 psi, or about 21,000 psi for the +P ammo. The .357 Magnum, however, is rated at 35,000 psi.
I'd also point out that the "original" 10mm ballistics cannot be duplicated unless one exceeds the 37,500 psi limit set by the SAAMI. E

Damn, talk about a SD slapper of a round, 165 gr gold dots at 1600, dang.

Me too , I use the 140 gr Barnes XPB-HP's to 1250 fps in my Sig, 16 of those sob's on tap is anything but short on power or weak. <G>

I think it sounds like you care too damned much about what others think and impressing them, regardless of facts.

That's for sure!

The 40 Super is really �ber and is what Safariman thinks the 10mm is.

He's suffering from SDS.

While the 10MM is an excellent pistol cartridge, the 40SW is a far more popular cartridge.The 40 makes a lot of sense as a defensive handgun cartridge and will work in a more compact pistol. I like the 40, but don't need a 10.YMMV

I was just having some fun, nothing serious. Thanks for the input and all, though.

Are you really this starved for attention?

I get annoyed at the 'short&weak' moniker. The 40 is neither. It hits like a hammer. It is every bit as much the game taker as the 10, with the proper loads. The comparison with the Special vs. Magnum cartridges was far from apt. It seems that you have shot nothing but your 10, and think it is hot [bleep]. It is, but it isn't so much hotter than a 40 to make a comparison with Spec/Mag. Both 10 and 40 are great cartridges, and one is 10% faster. Just like a 357 is 10% faster than a 38....

Call it a centimeter......

think they're both great rounds

though prefer the 10 for walking around the big piney


the .40 for the big city


though either one is apt to get you by in a pinch


provided

you remember the 5 cardinal priorities for shooting when it counts


1. shot placement

2. shot placement

3. shot placement

4. bullet/cartridge combo

5. platform

Now THAT is funny!

I do believe that you have hit the nail square on the head with this post, of course. But those truisms are not nearly as fun to argue over! Great post though, for sure.

Agreed. Wisdom here.

The .40 originally was a shortened & loaded down version of the 10mm - the so-called FBI load was a subsonic 180gr. The supersonic loads have always been good stoppers, and with modern bullets, even more so.

Shoot a .40 in a Kahr P40, you will say ouch, and cease calling it short & weak.

Cooper frequently did call it just that, and he was mathematically correct, too.

The AK-40 (Asskickin 40)

The .40S&W was a caliber that did not have to be, except to make money for smith and wesson, and winchester. And is ballistically similar to a 1900 vintage .38wcf.
Issues of it's own on reloading, and the ugly middle child between 9mm and 45acp.

That is a GREAT nickname for it!

I guess one of my hopes with this thread, and another like unto it about two years ago, is to maybe come up with a good nickname for it even if only used here. Kinda like in custom rifles they refer to a model 700 as a "sucks" action and the 7x57 often as an Ingwe special.

Something that gives it the ring and it should have, something that better indicates the performance of the round even if just in name. AK40 is a good one so far.

Speaking of the .38-40, anbody ever shoot one with factory ammo ? I got to try one a while back. Now there is an easy to shoot, mild recoiling round with low muzzle blast. Very nice in an old Colt Peacemaker. E

Good grief. Thanks for proving my earlier post correct. The 10 is a damned good round on it's own merits. It doesn't need a ridiculous nickname by someone more concerned about feeling better or bigger about himself or impressing someone else.

If it were called the .39cm LimpDick but had he same ballistics, would you carry it or be more concerned with appearances than appearance? At this point, the answer is rather obvious - you'd shun it, regardless of facts and performance. You quoted the earlier post as being truth, as it is, but do everything possible to avoid the logic and wisdom in it.

Why doesn't he just get a 40 Super? The 40 Super is about 200 FPS faster than the 10mm with every bullet weight. He is infatuated with velocity.

Someone has to provide an occasional target for those who do so love to fire off their own, in it's way, "short & weak ammo".

Som

You yankee koksukker. GFY

Ager, kill yourself.

TAK,

The only way you'll get past your anger is through Christ's love.



Travis

LOVE LIFTED ME....
LOVE LIFTED ME.....

WHEN NOTHING ELSE COULD HELP,
LOVE...... LIFTED.......... ME......

Was that directed at me?

Who's angry? Don't confuse candor for anger.

TAK,

Denial is not the waterway to Christ's love and forgiveness.




Travis

For sure, gettin' sloshed in front of the young'uns is the WAY, so they say.

I'm not one to judge, but that would be poor parenting on your part.




Travis

Sheesh! Just trying to have some fun with nicknames and such.

I am under no impression that whatever we come up with here as a nickname, even of a bunch of folks DID agree on one, is ever going to be stamped on the side of a box of factory ammo anywhere.

Not a serious thread here, but being taken a bit serious by a few. Tossing around a nickname for a cartridge is the kind of conversation starting idea one might throw out at a real hunters or pistolero's night time campfire.

safariman,

What do you use your 10MM for?

for making nicknames for, silly rabbit.....

You two aren't singing along.....

Where is the love?

GFY.

Why Flave is one of my FAVORITE yankees.

Yesterday I tried to post from my iPhone well traveling. I seems that with the ipad or iPhone when I want to start typing, the key pad disappears on the touch screens. It can be a p i a. And with my key pad disappearing and rode bumps I touched submit by accident, so I thought F it.

But anyway I recall in some 90's magazine, I believe American Handgunner they referred to the 40 as the 40 Short and Wimpy.

I myself like it.

we already have a nickname

.40 'flave

Its all the rage with the tranny crowd

Oh dear, here we go.

Nothing wrong with the 40 short & weak....other than the fact that it was never really needed.

What did, or does, need have to do with it? I think the sales numbers would speak for themselves regarding the 40's validity and utility. I've found that proper handloads put the 40 into respectable performance. It is a fine cartridge, and the only thing I can see that people have to bitch about is that it isn't a bit faster, or maybe a bit fatter. I'd love to get 10mm numbers, but top end 40 loads, such as a 180 cast flat nose at 1200, are the limit of the snap I want from the platform. And really, no more is needed.

We had the 45 ACp 185 gr at 1000 fps. So why the 40?

Many +P loads will do 1100 fps and the 45 Super 185's will do 1300 plus fps. The 45 Super operates at about 27,500 PSI. About 10,000 PSI less than the 10mm and 40 S&W.

For bipedal self-defense, I don't see advantage of 10MM vis-a-vis .40 S&W. In fact, I'd take a hi-capacity .40 S&W over a 10MM every time if we're talking bipedal self-defense. As a trail gun, I'd rather have a 10MM.

The .40 S&W doesn't not have to fly at 10MM speeds for it to be effective for self-defense. A 180 grain bullet at about 1000 FPS and you're good to go.

There is a marginal advantage as a hunting round when heavier bullets are used. The 10mm handles the 200 grainers better. A good 200gr hard cast Makes a great hog stopper. Very good penetrator through all that mud, gristle and boney shoulder.

Everything I shoot with my .40 seems to die pretty fast.

Can anybody tell me what I'm doing wrong?



Travis

Absolutely! My 45 super does as well with Power pistol.

It needs a catchy nickname.

Don't blame yourself. 40's kill too well.

I have used it on hogs, carried it in bear country hikes or fihsing trips and on big game hunts. It is also my EDC firearm. Though a full size steel 1911, it hides rather well under an overshirt, light vest etc. 'tis also my truck gun, I keep a small supply of loaded mags and ammo in the back seat of my truck for it.

Everywhere and everything load is 180gr Gold Dots at 1375.

Shoot larger animals.

What are you shooting? Maybe that's the difference between your .40 �ber Souper and the Terrific Ten.

How large?

(that's what she said)



Travis

Bullets.

What else?



Travis

If my 40 trail load didn't do the job with 12 shots, I didn't need a cartridge burning a few more grains of powder. I needed a different class of cartridge altogether.

Capacity.

Safariman,

I do think that the 10MM is one of the best trail guns available. It's superior to the venerable .357 Mag for bear defense.

I wouldn't turn my head to a good deal on a 1911A1-type 10MM deal.

My fn hold 15 45's

The 10mm is a cartridge, not a trail gun. The cartridge might be in the running if the trail gun a revolver. There are relatively specific needs that a 10mm in a semi-auto answer, but the overall versatility of the revolver make it a better trail gun.



They're probably a tie for mediocre for that purpose.

Where was your FN in 1990?

Next time I come across a smokin deal on one, I will PM you. I just snagged a neat little commander sized 45ACP with MAster series Rosewood lazergrips real cheap, more gun show Table fodder. Deals come along when one looks diligently.

Hmm. I don't see it that way. A 10 with maxed flatnose 220's or a 357 with wfn 180's seem like good options to me. Not a Casull, but controllable and portable, with lots of firepower. Defense shooting and retail business have 3 important similarities in order to succeed: location, location, location.

A 10mm with maxed flatnose 220 grainers is going to have to be getting pretty slow. I just took it that JOG meant compared to full strength 44 Mag's or taking it up a notch to hot-loaded 45 Colt's or a Casull, the 10 is going to come off pretty weak. I have no idea how much difference there would be in the real-world, because I've never shot a bear. I do know that if I were to shoot one, I'd much rather have a hot-loaded 45 Colt or a 44 Mag. than a 10mm, especially if the bear was of the Horribulus tribe.

The 10 when in a high cap platform like the Glock, makes for a moderately powerful pistol with a lot of firepower. If you're really in Bear country and you choose one, you're making the old choice between power and firepower. From what I've read about bears, if you're really in danger, you might get off two shots before the bear is on you, making the issue of how many rounds, moot, unless you're talking a Contender or other single-shot pistol, which aren't commonly carried for defensive purposes anyway.

IOW, this...



not this.



But if that, it isn't going to make much difference if it is this instead.



And I wouldn't say that this is inferior to the latter two.

So to summarize, if in Bear country, make mine this.



Sorry, but this thread needed pics.

I'd rather have a hot-loaded 10 with heavies, or a 40 with same, than a hard-kicking heavy wheelgun. Unless we're talking big coastal bears, then I'd carry a lever gun. You aren't going to intimidate a big grizz just by firing a big bullet, and it doesn't take a big bullet to stop an attack.

I'd rather have a gun that I've shot 1000's of times and can shoot really well, loaded with the right bullet. I can rapid fire my 40 with decent accuracy, and it will be a CNS hit that stops the attack.

I'm going into bear country today to pick huckleberries. We can suppose all kinds of gack about guns and firepower and magnums and whatever, but I know from my tests that my 40 with 180gr hardcasts at 1200 will penetrate a bear's skull, or make it through at least a foot of soft tissue and then break bone. Consequently, that is what I will carry.

Secondly, part of being in bear country is being completely aware of your surroundings as much as possible. Bears are quiet when they want to be, but they haven't cared to be very quiet when I've come across them before, and I'm confident that I can notice them in plenty of time for more than 1 or 2 shots from my 40, if I have to shoot. It hasn't happened that way yet. I pray it never does, but if it does, I am confident that I can do what needs done with my 40. My brother carries a 9 with 147 hardcasts at 1050 in bear country, and feels good about it.

From looking at the data, it looks like the 10 can get a 200grn bullet up to 1200. Don't see data for a 220, but I'm sure at least 1000 is doable, which is plenty for penetrating the skull, or the soft tissue around the neck to get to the spine.

Once again, if these can't get the job done, then I want a rifle, not a bigger handgun.

Oh really? I got the bear on the lefts attention rather quickly with one big slug fired from my revolver.


.


I had a rifle,but it was out of reach. Give me the larger handgun at least it will always be available in time of need.

Sooo, you don't think the 10mm is mediocre for bears, but you'll only use it on mediocre bears?

Yes, that's it exactly. A 400# MT griz (and that is probably an old, mature boar) ain't no 800# brownie. And before you mention it, I'm well aware of that #800+ griz that was hit by a truck years ago on the west side of the Bob (It is mounted at the USFS HQ in Lincoln). They are out there, just like there are 400 class elk.....somewhere.

I've seen that bear in Lincoln. There have been some big SOBs in that area in years past. Edited to add: that is where I was picking berries yesterday, with short&weak at hand. I don't consider any bear that I'd come across mediocre. Either it will run away or it won't. I'm not going to wait around to see if I get mauled if it doesn't.

I'm not going to argue about what works for huge Browns that live thousands of miles away from me. WTF would I know about that? I know what I've seen in the mtns of Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. And I know what many bullets can do, because I shoot many at all kinds of stuff. Sure, a big revolver shooting a big cartridge with a big bullet will hit harder than a smaller gun, etc. The point I am making is it is easier to shoot and carry what I carry, and I am fully confident in it. If I'm wrong, its no skin off anyone else's ass. Carry what you want, as it is no skin off mine.

Very well stated. And spot on. Don't know how my thread about kicking around a new nickname for the full size and full power 10 became a thread about.... what exactly IS it that we are talking about now, besides a better,, catchier and more fitting nickname for a great cartridge....

I'm talking about killing Alaskan Browns from central MT with a 40. Can't let 'em get too close! Actually, I was talking about the utility of 10mm/40 cal heavies in top loads in guns that are relatively easy to carry and shoot well, including using said firearm as a bear defense gun. Of course, well-placed shots are essential and...blah blah blah.

I like the 10mm and I have no problem with its current name. I also like the 40 and have no problem with its name. At one time it looked as if the 40 Action Express would become a big deal. It was fine too and I have no problem with its name.

I hAve no experience with big Bears, or the 10MM. But one of the Norweigen Countries have a long range patrol force that has fairly regular run ins with Polar bears. The Glock 20 is their issued Sidearm

Yep, here it is...the Sirius Greenland Patrol. They also carry 1917 Enfields in 30/06.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A6depatruljen_Sirius

VERY interesting! And IMO they are quite well armed and set up, both handgun and rifle wise.

Have not read the whole thing here , but what is the name for a 45 necked down to a 40 ? I always called that a 40 super, gets pretty much same FPS from a given bullet weight with less pressure than a 10mm.

I never did like the 10 mm name...just too plane. 40 super is kinda catchy....

Pretty sure that is a 400 CorBon. I could be wrong, though.

The 40 Super is a 45 win mag necked down the 40 caliber and it is about 200 FPS faster than the 10mm.

Got that part. Isn't the 45ACP necked to 40 the 400 CorBon?

I believe so. The necking down loses a little length that is why the 40 Super uses the 45 win mag case inorder to maintain the same case length after necking down. Since their is now factory loads and brass made, no need to make your own.

.40 Super has a cool factor, but to me it's a bit overdone. To me it's worthless to rely on shooting .40 S&W bullets at velocities faster than the bullet is designed for. Faster isn't better just because, it's good if the bullet can handle it, but .40 S&W bullets aren't designed be pushed endlessly. We should know that faster doesn't always make a hardcast penetrate deeper, it depends but sometimes even then faster equals less penetration.

The 10mm somewhat suffers from this too I say somewhat because it is slower than the .40 Super but also you have how many people out there loading the 10mm hotter than it was ever really designed for?

I mean most 180gr JHP bullets don't hold up that well beyond 1150-1200 fps, the tougher ones can manage around 1300 or so but when you look at recovered 180gr .400" bullets going that fast, they look mangled because they're not really designed for that speed.

TO me, the .40 S&W is ideal for a few reasons. Slightly smaller 9mm sized platform makes it easier and lighter to carry. Secondly, if you're honest about it, a warm 10mm and a warm .40 S&W aren't that different. For a long time I handloaded the 10mm until it dawned on me one day that really I'm not gaining much of anything by shooting it over the .40 S&W.

I mean sure I could load a 200gr WFNGC hardcast to a hair over 1300 fps from a 4.6" KKM G20, but that same bullet will do just over 1150 fps from a smaller 4" KKM G23. Both will punch a hole in and out of any deer and most any hog, so again, where's the need for faster? With a G35 that 200gr can hover around 1250 fps if I want to gain some velocity back.

Same with 180grs, I could do around 1350 with a 180gr JHP from a 4.6" G20, good for sure but too fast really. The same 180gr JHP can do 1200 from a 4" G23, which is fast enough. Not identical, but considering that even at 1200 fps, every 180gr JHP will expand to and even past its limits and many will even begin to break apart to one degree or another at 1200 fps. So why faster going to be better when the bullet is likely to penetrate less, not more due to design limitations?

If I want that speed back, for whatever reason, the G35 can get me over 1300 fps with a 180gr JHP. The .40 eats less powder too, not to mention brass is much more available and essentially free if you just take the time to pick it up.

But that's just my opinions, I don't think the 10mm (or .40 Super) has any real world "usable" advantage over the .40 S&W. If a well placed, warm .40 won't do the job, neither will a warm 10mm, at that point it's time to step up to the .45 Super (250gr @ 1300 fps) G21 or my .45 Colt Blackhawk or 454 Casull BFR.

45 Super 230 grain XTP at 1100 plus FPS and a 10mm 180 XTP at 1300 plus FPS

life is full of compromises, but more snort ='s more snort ime. guess your mileage varies.

give me a hot 10mm over a hot .40 anyday when lookin to put holes in furry with teeth

but give me my .45/70 over either, and no I ain't talkin the judge