In the thread discussing whether the Glock 42 will be a flop, the issue was raised about whether mini autos have any purpose whatsoever. I thought the topic deserved its own thread. I'm undecided and looking forward to hearing your opinions.

To prime the discussion, I gathered a few of the "usual suspects" from both sides of the aisle:



The auto's from top to bottom: Colt Mustang .380, Glock 42 .380, Kimber Ultra 1911 .45 ACP, and a Kahr PM9 9mm.

The revolvers: S&W 49 .38 Spcl, S&W 642 .38 Spcl +P, Ruger LCR .22 Mag, and a Ruger SP 101 .357 Mag.

Maybe to keep the discussion focused, let's leave the .22 Mag alone as to whether it's sufficient as a self-defense cartridge. The LCR comes in .38 Spcl and .357 in basically the same size package. Feel free to attack or support the .380 ACP though.

And the main issue is: Why or why not carry a mini auto? And if you oppose mini autos, at what point is an auto so small that it's "useless" and should be replaced by a wheel gun?

For a small auto my choice would be a Walther PPK/S or a Sig P232. Both would make a small belt gun.

For a mini auto my choice would be a Seecamp in .380 would be the ticket.

I don't know where the cutoff for mini is but I like the Shield. It's small enough to carry owb and still disappear under a tshirt.

I don't quite call the Shield a mini, nor is the Kimber Ultra, the G42 or the Kahr PM9, though it's close.

My preference is a S&W J-frame 442/642, but I could live with the Shield if I had to, but probably w/o +P ammo.

MM

I really like the Keltec P3AT, Glock 42 not so much

I like the sig 938, but I have the sig 232, s&w 637, p7m8, s&w 35ipd ,n/a mini, and LCP .Carry the 938 daily. S/E Texas is polo shirt and shorts most of the time. Hard to hide a full size even on a fat boy. Hasbeen

You'd be surprised what an oversized & loose T-shirt & the right holster/gun combination can do for you.

MM

I've come to really like the Kahr P380. Fits my hand well, very good trigger pull, excellent night sights...

Bob

Did we just time travel back to the 1980's?

I like the new S&W Bodyguard .38sp Revolver with Factory Lazer for my BUG. It only ways 13 ounces and rides in the right front pocket of my cargo shorts. But I very rarely carry it as my only CHL Pistole.
It's usually the BUG to my 1911 LW Commander or my Glock 32.

About the only small auto I carry any more is a KelTec P-32 loaded with Buffalo Bore Ammo. And it's usually in my shorts pocket when I'm just setting around the house watching late night TV.
It's NOT a CHL gun that I would want to bet my life on! It's just mainly a pocket gun for here at the house. I'd much prefer my old cutdown Savage SXS 12 ga. that's leaning behind the door.

So everyone thus far thinks mini autos have a place in the world and shouldn't be replaced by a revolver?

I have the S&W Shield 9MM and my wife has the S&W Bodyguard .380.I can conceal the Shield pretty good with my DeSantis OWB holster and its comfortable to carry all day.

The Bodyguard on the other hand is even more concealable because that goes in the front pants pocket.

As with any firearm (self defense or hunting)shot placement and bullets matter more than headstamps, with the 380,IMO it becomes more important than with a .45.

Theres a site that does some testing on 380 ammo that I found interesting. I think its called Shoot the Bull,Google it its easy to find

Yes, I think mini autos have a place. The practicality of a Kel-tec P3AT drew me in. It's so small that you can carry it even when you're not really carrying.

S&W J frame has my vote.....I carry a model 38 Airweight most everywhere.

For a number of years I carried the SP101 in 357 Mag. I had an action job, night sights, & Mag-N-Ported. Accurate & not too obtrusive. Only pulled it once when some druggies demanded money at a 7-11 at about 4:00AM on the way hunting. I live in liberal Northern Virginia & needed something as a small back-up when working as a S/O & also when around the area. If anyone even suspects that someone is carrying here you are likely to be visited by SWAT. I purchased the S&W Bodyguard in .380 with the laser. Accurate enough for its purpose, but a lousy trigger. Not sure if a good smith could improve or not.

I can fire a revolver from INSIDE a coat pocket and empty the cylinder if need be. No way in Hell can a semi match that. Ask Gunner 500. He learned.

642 w/laser, worn crossdraw or in pocket holster, depending on what I'm wearing. In winter, it often goes in my coat pocket, in the pocket holster to keep it upright.

Hell ET, you're crazy enough to light one off from inside your shorts I'm betting!

Enjoy your day!

froggy

+1.

The Shield esp. in 40 S&W can be a primary or BUG. Though similar to the Kimber 45 ACP Ultra, my EDC, the lighter weight and (internal) striker vs. external hammer makes it much more of a very powerful mini. Less complicated manual of arms to boot.

I don't see the Kimber Ultra as a mini BUG, but still very concealable for a powerful primary CCW.

I agree 100%. I should have left it out of the pic.

I was more curious about how many people disfavor mini autos, generally, and think that revolvers are the better choice.

No, not quite correct.

Small autos have a place, but mini autos will never replace either small autos or revolvers.

Guess it somewhat depends on your definitions of small & mini auto.

MM

Here's the statement that got me thinking about all of this:



I was/am wondering if others think similarly or not.

If you are truly talking about pocket pistols (i.e., those that are carried in a pocket and not in a holster), then both semis and revolvers have their pluses and minuses.

Autos:
* Mini-autos are more finicky about ammunition, grip, and everything else that can occasionally plague a full size auto. The further you shrink the size and attempt to maintain a full power cartridge, the more exacerbated any small issue will become.
* The small size and grip frame can make practicing with and controlling a full power cartridge capable pistol difficult.
* Until you get to the P3AT/LCP size, weight can be an issue with them. The shrunken 1911s are a perfect example of this.
* The autos can't be fired more than once from inside a pocket.

That said, reloads in a new magazine carry and conceal well. The smallest autos in .32 and .380 are light years ahead of where they were in terms of concealment and effectiveness over similarly chambered pistols just 20 years ago. There are several true pocket pistols available today in calibers up to and including .45ACP; something that was unthinkable not long ago. The carry flat, if the overall size is conducive to pocket carry. The semi-auto platform is one that most people who shoot today are familiar with and thus "cross training" is easy.

Revolvers:
* The are generally thicker and can print more easily due to the girth around the cylinder.
* They generally have less rounds in a single load (5 to 6 vs. 6-8).
* Reloads carried in a speedloader don't conceal well at all.
* Revolvers are not commonly carried or used today by most shooters.
* Recoil in a true pocket sized revolver can be an issue.

That said, ammunition reliability problems are generally avoided in revolvers. True, it may have one or two that it shoots better than others, but feeding and reliability are not a normal concern. The standard revolver calibers of .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .44 Special are the most common revolver chamberings and they have a long track record of success in defensive use. The concealed hammer or shrouded hammer revolvers can be successfully fired multiple times from within a pocket without jamming, and they are also quite slick to draw from a pocket without snagging.

We truly live in a golden age of firearms. If you had wanted a true pocket pistol 40, 30, or even 20 years ago, you were stuck with just a couple small revolvers or sacrificing power to get into a .32 or .380 that quite often had reliability issues in addition to marginally effective ammunition. Today, you have your pick of dozens.

I personally think that they both have their place and their values. I've carried the smaller .380s for a good number of years, as well as a 442/642. I don't find it that difficult to conceal a full sized pistol these days due to great belt and holster options, but the little guns still have their place. Pick one that works well for you; get used to it; carry it; and don't worry about what someone else thinks.

I think small autos are easier to conceal than small revolvers, due to the lack of bulk the cylinder of the revolver presents.


but as Jim pointed out, the revolver can be shot from the pocket, the semi, only once before it must be drawn.


but other than coat pocket that point seems pretty well moot. Front pants pocket, at least on my pants the weapon would have to be drawn unless I just want to shoot myself in the leg or foot and scare the hades outa the guy how badazz I am

"hey I just shot myself, ain't nuttin for me to shoot you, ya big jabroni"


man I wish Col. Cooper were still alive, this last epiphany of mine might inspire him to include it in his writings as part of the maxim of handgun defense.

Move over Ayoob, there's a new sheriff in town, 2l2q

Although I have nothing against a mini auto, I personally prefer a revolver for a pocket gun for the following reasons:

1. I have never had a revolver malfunction when coated with all of the lint and crud that seems to accumulate on the gun in a pocket holster.

2. I prefer the revolver grip shape for quick access to the handgun in the pocket.

3. I prefer the DA trigger as a safety feature when a handgun is carried in a pocket.

4. I like the idea that the revolver can be fired repeatedly from a pocket if necessary with less chance of malfunctioning.

My opinion is colored somewhat by the fact that a friend of mine shot himself accidentally with a Glock carried in his right front pocket. None of the hundreds of officers I worked with who carried pocket revolvers ever did that. Yes, he mishandled the weapon...but its design is much less forgiving of mistakes than a revolver is.

I always have my 638 in my pocket, and about 3/4 of the time also have a Glock 19 in an IWB holster on the opposite side. I'm not quite sure which is the primary and which is the secondary.

As long as it has an enclosed hammer and you carry an extinguisher for the fire. I hear this recommended but it was pretty damn interesting to actually do it a few times. I saw triggers fail to reset and cylinders get bound up in liners and not turn. The thought of 5 shots guaranteed turned out to be a myth.

I hate carrying in my pocket. I always have to put the stuff I normally carry in my right pocket into my left.

I much prefer a clip like techna-clip or the kel-tec version and stick it in the waistband.

Have not tried the hip .grip on a five shooter, would rather have the auto.

If I'm wearing a jacket and you are talking those pockets then I would hide something bigger IWB.

Mike

As much as I like revolvers, I like my Springfield XDS 45 more, as a tool. I won't ever carry it in a carved leather holster, but it'll get the job done if it ever has to.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. The Walther PPK goes all the way back to the 1920's. It's sort of like the 1911, over a hundred years old and still going strong.

I absolutely agree with that statement.

J-frame/LCR or bust.



Travis

Holy schit...



Travis

'Flave, please don't quote that idiot. Some of us are quite happy seeing the exact same thing every time he posts.

PPK/S is a boat anchor compared to the Modern plastic guns!

Mike

Yes Mike, but a boat anchor is simple, reliable and doesn't go out of its way to cut your hands.

Which means the PPK is not a boat anchor, as it will bite the hand that fires it, is not necessarily simple not reliable.

It was a good design in it's time as the PP, and worked as the PPK and PPK/S. It has been surpassed by more than a few better designs and some not necessarily that recent. For that size and weight today, it's better off a 9x19 class caliber.

Sorry I have taken so long to post on this thread, as I feel like I have been one of those who stirred the sheet, so to speak.

My feeling in reference to pocket guns is that revolvers do a better job of giving me more than one shot from the pocket.

Semi automatics will fire from the pocket on the first go round, but I feel like they stand a good chance of a malfunction before the second round can be fired.

My rule of thumb is that anyone or anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.

With that in mind, I give the revolver the nod for a pocket gun.

Mine is a Smith model 38, airweight bodyguard. I practice with non plus P loads and carry plus P for social issues. I shoot it well enough out to 25 yards and count it the baseline for myself.

I've been forced to carry a PPK/s in 380, and it was one of the old Interams versions. Due to that experience I will not have another one in my house, let alone my pocket.

There are so many things that fulfill the same role and do so in a better manner than the PPk or PPk/s platform.

If you think a PPk/s won't cut your hands, you got another think coming.

I bleed every time I shoot a PPK/S and I bleed every time I shoot a Browning HP. But the injuries have, so far, not been fatal to anything other than my interest in both pistols.

A quick hammer swap on the BHP will cure those ills.

Mini revolvers peaked around the time that WW1 was transpiring.

Back then, the manufacturers thought that it was important to hit what you aimed at.

My 1920 Colt Police Positive in .32 long still will.

It rests comfortably in the inside pocket of a sports coat and will push a 100 grain cast flat point to Mach 1 without excessive stress.

A Fitz Special would do nicely after that, with a bit more punch. The S&W Bodyguards don't lack much either, and the Centennial hammerless has been a go-to for a good while:

The S&W J frame was the demise of the mini revolver.

A 4.25" "I" frame regulation police was where they peaked.

You couldn't give me a Walther PPK/S! I NEVER found a reliable one with anything but hardball ammo. The only "Big" .380 I would ever own would be a Sig 232. Very reliable and accurate, too.

I still prefer my 5-shot S&W BodyGuard Revolver with the Factory Lazer over any of my other "Pocket Guns". Mines loaded with 5 of the Buffalo Bore Flat nose Wadcutters for Penatration.

,...as compared to a fairly recent 5" Model 10.

It essentially a miniature of it.

A PPK, PPKs is a piece of crap if you have hands bigger than a school girl. I have a couple of S&W 36's but they roll around in a pocket carry and in a holster I might as well be carrying a !911. A small plastic frame DA only 380 loaded with Hydrashocks like the Keltec or Ruger(a poor copy of the Keltec) tucks nicely in the front pocket with your keys and crap and is always there. If you can cover it up, carry a pistol with a whole lot more going into the game

I guess, since it was my statemt that got the Oap to think and start this thread i should chime in.

I stand by my statement, "I" don't see the need for a mini auto. Now by mini auto i'm not talking the "ultra" sized 1911, or a baby Glock or Shield. I'm talking guns on the same scale as a Beretta Tomcat, and the little tiny Keltec, and LCP sized guns. If I meed a Handgun in a defensive situation, I want as few "Murphy" factors involed as I can, and those tiny guns, to me, seem to have been designed and built by Murphy and his family. I have big hands, and those tuny autos don't lend well to getting a good firing grip initially, and I have to finger faux them in my hand to get a good grip on them.

As has been posted in another tread, the ease of carrying them because they "slip right in a pocket, and you don't even notice them there" creates it's own unique problems namely. You may not remeber you even have it when you meed it because "you hardky noticed it when you stuck it in Your pocket". And do to positional problems you may not be able to get to the damn thing in a pocket.

Assuming the S will hit the F rapidly and without warning and the episode will be over in 2-3 seconds, it doesn't matter to me if the firearm has a cylinder or a slide, it just has to meet these requirements:

1. It has to hit where I'm looking without aiming. Yes, aiming is much better, but in sudden death I want something that fits my hand such that it will hit where my bug-eyed eyes are staring just by point shooting it. I missed a very pissed off Florida razorback three shots out of four at 6-8 feet because Smith K-frame service stocks, when grabbed very rapidly, point way right in my hand. A Kahr 9mm, when grabbed as fast as I can from multiple locations and fired from chest height will let me make a first round hit on an 8" target every single time at 7 yards - this by looking at the target, not at the pistol.

2. It can't hang up on anything, ever. The more protrusions, shelves, hooks and hangups it has, the more chances Murphy will use one to ruin your day. I practiced pulling an SP101 out of my back jeans pocket really fast - the hem inside the top of the pocket hung up on that little bit of cylinder sticking out past the recoil shield. An exposed hammer spur - fuggedaboutit - that hammer will catch on shirt tails, belts, hems, anything and everything. I had a gunsmith bevel the back of the cylinder, the back of the cylinder release and remove the hammer spur and that made it a very slick little piece to draw from front, back or coat pocket. But it still weighed about 1 3/4 pounds loaded and would really drag down any coat pocket short of a heavy parka.

3. It has to go bang reliably. Revolvers do that. All four Kahrs I've owned have done that. Not to tout Kahrs exclusively, I'm sure there are other brands just as reliable but they're the only ones I am familiar with in this genre.

4. Once it passes 1, 2 and 3, caliber is secondary as long as it is at least 35 and will penetrate 6-8 inches through heavy clothes - a .38 Spl or most modern 9mm ammo seems capable of that. When I'm startled, scared, in the dark, off balance, maybe stunned by a sucker punch (if I'm still concious - the one time I got punched like that in New Orleans by an "urban yute" I was), if I can put a really really really fast first round hit center of mass just by point shooting, that's the one for me. If I then have the opportunity to take an aimed or semi-aimed second or third or fourth shot, that means I'm still alive so those are gravy.

But I want to be able to yank that handgun from its hiding place in a blind panic, have it come free without hindrance and make a first shot hit. If it does that then what type of firearm it is is unimportant to me.

My PPK/S functioned perfectly with every thing it was fed, it was a very accurate pistol also!

It was just really heavy, was my truck gun and got replaced by a Glock 22.

Mike

These are as small as I will carry.

As Jim said, I want to be able to point shoot and the revolvers do that. My Shield has gotten a lot of carry time this summer, had a hiccup this afternoon that reminded me just how nice that little 357 is.

As for a pocket sized carry gun, I wear Wranglers and carried a Berretta tip up 22 a few years ago in my back pocket. Sure it was always there but it was almost always hard to draw compared to a real pistol in a real holster. Give me a J frame hammerless snubby.

I get hammer bite with both the rowled hammer and the spur hammer on a BHP. If there is a third type, I've never tried it.

Try C&S's "no bite" hammers: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=BHPham

for me, it's not so much the size of the platform, but what cartridge is involved.
I won't go below a .38 Special, and I trust them implicitly for self defense. I prefer a .45 auto though, and can get that in my little XDS.
I carry both a J frame, and the tiny Springfield XDS, depending on my clothes. With it being summer time in Miami, most of the time I am in shorts and tee shirt. The J frame and the little XDS will fit into a front pocket., and are virtually the same size.

the profile is similar but the width on the revolver is a bit of an issue for me
I would like to carry a J frame but a CM9 just fits better imho
Hank

Out of all my handguns, I carry a J frame most of the time. Followed by the 938 and then a Charter .44 Bulldog.

Having carried both a PM9 and a S&W 340 alot in a front pants pocket, I find that the auto's blocky shape makes it look like you have a gun in your pocket where as the J frames lumpy more rounded shape is less obvious.

While I keep a 9mm semi in my car and my wife keeps a Ruger LCR in .38SPL, the gun I most often have on my body is a Walther PPK/s .380.

I guess the answer could depend on definitions of a "pocket gun" and a "mini auto".

I have a Model 60 that I had a gunsmith bob the hammer and do the sweetest trigger job on it I have ever seen and then I added some Hogue grips to it. I had a client that I was seeing a lot in a nearby town in a bad location where a lot of drug/crime traffic was rolling. I put the Model 60 in an ankle holster and went off to work.

Then one day when I was shooting it I noticed that there are only 5 holes in that cylinder!! And I wasn't carrying extra ammo and didn't want to.

Moved on to a Glock 26 and did some trigger work on it and put it in the same holster and away I went. 11>5 was simple to me, like the 9mm caliber over the .38Specl. and I don't consider either of them a "pocket shooter". Both are almost identical weight at 21-22oz.

I do have a pocket rocket that might qualify for the "mini auto" definition in a Kel Tec P3AT .380 which at 8 oz unloaded will fit in a pocket of most pants and works swell in cargo shorts.

The accuracy with the P3AT is better than expected but still a very limited range in that is is more of a "get off me" gun than anything. Or it could be classified as "dog shooter".

If I was in a shootout, no question I would want the G26.

I'm 6'7"and 365 lbs. Where can I find these oversized T-shirts?

I don't care to try to convince anyone about what gun or method to use. For me though, the micro pocket autos are the perfect solution for being"always armed..."

6'7", 365 and carries, damn ya must live in Sasquatch country. lol.

No.1-a guy THAT big could likely carry a 105mm tank cannon without it being noticed. No. 2-He NEEDS a gun to defend himself???

Hell. I'd want a 105 if I saw that guy in a dark alley!

He's the size of a baby Grizzly!

I have some T-shirts that look like a mini dress on me but would be just the right size for our baby Grizzly.

I have my idea of a mini auto: Glock 35 with 5.31 inch barrel. For a mini revolver: a 3 inch Model 66 .357 S&W Mag. I guess Mini Autos and Revolvers come under the functional rabbit's foot category to me. My serious choice of small revolver would be a S&W J frame 38 Special with +P ammo. I carried an AMT .380 Auto in an ankle holster as back up to a 4 inch S&W 29 44 Mag or Colt 1911 45 Colt belt gun in the early 80s but moved on to 5 shot J frames. The Glock 20 10mm Auto and Glock 21 .45 ACP are good guns but the oversized grips are just too big for a secure grip, even in the SF models. I have them and shoot them but don't love them. The Glock Model 35 and all similar size polymer framed guns at least allow a firm grip and a place for all fingers. It is amazing how much the little finger improves the grip during rapid fire. The new polymid textured surface is almost as good as 30 lines per inch checkering on the front strap of a Kimber CDP. In the old days we paid big bucks for custom checkering and a beavertail grip safety, now its standard on good carry guns.

I�ve been gone so I�m late to the party. The definition of a mini-gun of the pocket variety varies from person to person. To me, it is a least common denominator that I will always carry, and with which I would be willing to go up against the Batman movie dude or the Clackamas Mall shooter. It has to be something I actually would carry in a gun unfriendly city, where it better have been used to avoid death or great bodily harm if it gets noticed.

Revolvers and mini .380s are totally off the list for me. I suck at 25 yards with small revolvers, and .380s just don�t have the downrange energy to suit my preferences. Very few have sights that are easy to pick up in the dark, as in movie theater dark. Reloads with revolvers are a pain and also can result in dumping live rounds that might be needed later. Many teeny tiny autos have difficult magazine release switches and no slide stop to hold the slide back after it runs dry.

My least common denominator is my Sig P938. Great sights of the night sight variety, full functionality with a good magazine release button and a slide stop. I can carry it and a couple of reloads (all 6 round BTW) very easily. It shoots almost like a full sized gun at 25 yards. It has proven reliable, including shooting it, as carried for months, with lint and dust all over the gun. In terms of versatility and performance, I think that, on balance, it is a better gun to carry than the 4 inch K frame loaded with 125 grain Remington .38 Special +P and 2 speedloaders that I carried back in the day, and that is without making any accounting for the obvious weight and concealability differences. The advance in technology is astounding as far as I am concerned.

Is it my first choice? No. It usually serves a backup. But, there are times when I am outside my home state where I need to use discretion and I can only bring one.

In terms of nuances, there are times when a small revolver would be better. A S&W Centennial draws smoother from the pocket. I find the issue of whether it can fire from the pocket or not irrelevant, as my pants pockets would not allow me to shoot at anything more than an opponent�s foot or shin at best if I tried that. Coat pocket carry is just not in my modus operandi. I try to compensate by partially drawing the gun when I get the spidey sense. It can be done without being noticed if you wear the right clothing. As far as a panic draw is concerned, well, that is just a matter of training and hoping one is cool under stress, and sometimes the stars and planets just need to align properly. Cops fumble panic draws out of today�s retention holsters.

If all I worried about was one or two guys inside 7 yards, a Centennial or LCR with the concealed hammer with a couple of speed strips for spares would be fine.

Comments on other posts: While an XDS will fit in my pocket, it does not allow me to get a firing grip and draw smoothly from the pockets of the jeans that I wear, especially after I installed the night sights. I have to go to my belt with that one. Similarly, Waders� Kimber wouldn�t work, nor would the Shield or G26/27. The G35 isn�t even on the table for me as an open carry belt gun.

I live in the high desert of Nevada, and wear the same thing in the summer. With a good IWB and a large T-shirt, I have no problem concealing a LW Commander with shorts and a T-shirt. It's all in the holster you choose, and the T-shirt you wear.

60 miles from Mordor (Rockford,IL), 120 from Chicago...

Yep thats Sam-sqantch country. Lol

Old school S&W model 38 air-weight (instead of the 1/2 pound heavier model 49). No lock, no MIM parts makes it reliable as the sun coming up every morning. I have one in my back pocket at all times!

And I shoot the damn thing almost as well as my G17 I bought in 1994.

depends on my mood either carried a colt gov't 380 or mauser 1910 in 32acp and revolver is colt police positive in 32 s&w.

Now adays normally carry to shot 45

For a true go-everywhere handgun I much prefer a LCR or J-frame.

I've been known to wear the same flip flops, t-shirt, and swim trunks for three days straight. LCR's and the UBER light j-frames have no peer IMO.



Travis

If anyone ever opines that carrying is occasionally a burden because of size or weight, I'd have serious doubts they ever slid a 442 in their front pocket or tucked in their waistband.

It's too damned easy.

I wound up selling my Shield and full size M&P first of the week. Been carrying my 640-1 357 in a Kusiak IWB holster across Texas and Louisiana. Never felt under gunned and it disappears so easily.

I may pick up a new Shield without the safety or I may not.