Considering buying one and have two questions.

First, can you fire standard .45 acp loads down the .460 barrel ?

And can you use your .45 acp reloading dies to reload .460 Roland cases ?

From what I understand yes in both cases. You might want to go out to the Rowland web site as they have many answers to your questions.

http://460rowland.com/

Thanks DD I'll check it out.

yes
yes

Thanks! Might have a to buy me a Christmas present from me this week!

I've got an old Custom Springfield 1911 that I shot ISPC with for years that just sets in the safe. After seeing my buddies Conversion, I thought it would be cool to install one on my old race gun.
And with the longer barrel and compensator installed, it will be nice if I can also shoot the 45acp ammo and leave the .460 Conversion Kit on the pistol, since I have a truckload of 45acp ammo and brass, also. It ought to also be a hog hammering machine too with the .460 Roland Ammo.

You might want to check out the you tube videos on the .460 Rowland. Somebody had one of a sub machine gun is .460 Rowland and holy smokes.

I had a Clark conversion with comp I used on my Sig 1911 and it shot great. Played hell on deer

Quote from Rowland website: "In order to prevent our high-pressure round from being chambering and fired from guns that may not be up to the task, the .460 Rowland�s shell casing is 1/16 of an inch longer than a standard .45 ACP cartridge. Due to their identical overall length, however, an Authentic .460 Rowland Conversion will reliably feed and fire standard .45 ACP cartridges from standard .45 ACP magazines; just like the .357 Magnum feeds and fires the .38 Special� only bigger� much bigger."
If the 460 Rowland case is 1/16" longer than a 45 ACP, I do not see how a 45 ACP would fire in a Rowland chamber because the case headspaces on the rim of the case. Perhaps the ACP case sitting 1/16th of an inch deeper in the Rowland chamber can still be reached by the firing pin?
The other issue is the heavier recoil spring required in the Rowland conversion. Will the slide still cycle fully with a lighter recoil impulse of a 45 ACP considering the heavier spring and the greater mass of the compensator?
Any information about the carbine referred to on the website?
I have a 460 Rowland Clark 1911 conversion as well as a Mec Tec carbine. Both are great but I have never tried a 45 ACP round in either firearm. With a 230 grain flat point lead bullet, I chronographed 1370 fps from the sidearm with AA7 loads from Accurate provided reloading data.

Rowland is not as critical as Clark. Clark says not to try to fire .45ACP ammo in a .460 barrel, because since the round head spaces on the mouth of the case, instead of the rim (rimless cartridges). This makes the relationship much different than that between a .44 Special/.44 mag or .36 Special/.357 mag. As mentioned, the .45 might not even fire if the extractor doesn't hold the cartridge in place. Even if it does fire, performance might be spotty.

As to the reloading dies, yes, .45ACP dies, as well as primers and bullets, will work for the Rowland. I have a Springfield Mi Spec with a Clark conversion barrel that works very well, shoots accurately. Most I've pushed a hand load to so far is a 200 XTP to 1340 fps, and there is a lot more to go.

I had the same question...since the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth how can a .45 ACP be safely fired in a Roland chamber. This would be like trying to shoot a 9mm in a 9x23 Winchester chamber.

Anyone here shoot a .45 Super? Same size case as the ACP but thicker brass.

Bob

http://www.underwoodammo.com/460Rowland185graingdjacketedhollowpointboxof20.aspx

Supposedly the overall cartridge length is the same for the .45ACP and the .460 Rowland. However, I just looked at the Hodgdon reloading site and it shows the .460 Rowland being .070 overall longer than the .45ACP. So I don't know about interchangeability.

I shoot 45 Super and absolutely love it. A 185 at 1300. FPS + a 230 at 1100 FPS + and a 255 hard cast at 1075 to 1090 FPS. I shoot 45 ACP, 45 acp +P and 45 Super without a hitch and changes to my 1911 from one to the other.
I find that the 45 Super is a significant step up from a +P 45 ACP.

The 45 ACP, 45 Super and 460 have to be loaded to a cartridge over all length that will work through the magazine. From any practical stand point they are the same length and powder capacity.

I know that's true but I wonder how they get the higher velocities if all things are equal.

.

All things are not equal, to get more velocity is very simple. Just add a bit more powder which increases pressure thus increasing velocity. This is not brain surgery.

Just because length and capacity are basically equal it is als obvious that pressures are not equal.

As pointed out, the Rowland cartridge CASE is a bit longer. Overall loaded length is the same, so .45ACP magazines can be used with Rowland ammo as well as reloading dies. The ACP will chamber in the Rowland, because it is shorter, Rowland will not fit in an ACP chamber.

Thanks, but it is brain surgery for me, just like political philosophy and history is brain surgery for most on here.

So, while the overall length might be the same the oversize cases contain just a smidgen more powder thereby increasing pressure and velocity. Okay I think I have now.

Mike: Thanks for the extractor explanation

DerbyDude, the powder capacity for for all cases is basically the same. It is like up the charge in a 30-06 case and increases the pressure from the SAAMI max of 60,000 psi to 55 or 70 thousand psi this will crease the velocity.

Derby Dude the only reason the Rowland case is longer is to prevent clambering in unaltered pistols. If the Rowland case can be shortened to 45 ACP length and the same power loads can still be assembled.

Same here Bob...

I had Jack Huntington set my 1911 up for 45 Super (which was not expensive and the turn around time was only 5 or 6 weeks), other than that I run an 18 1/2 pound spring and run my target loads (200 H&G around 850 fps) up to my 45 Supers (230 XTP's around 1,100) with no change. 45 Supers are put up only in Super brass!

While I like the 1911 in 45 super... I really like my S&W 625 which I run 45 acp, 45 acp +P, 45 Super and 45 Auto Rim (mainly for cast bullets that will not feed in the 1911).

from Starline's website; "45 Super* is the same externally as the 45 Auto, but has a thicker web, denser grain structure in the metal, and special heat treat process that enhances the durability of the case. Similar internal capacity as the 45 Auto."

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Super-Brass/


460 Rowland; The 460 rowland case is 0.954-0.960 long vs. the 45 acp which is 0.892 - 0.897

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/460-Rowland-Brass/

Jerry

Jack also set my 45 Super and I also run an 18.5 pound spring. Mine feeds anything I put in it. Jack can correct the feeding for any bullet you want to shoot, he just needs a few to check function with.

The case hangs on the extractor, as do most all 45acp cases.

All things are NOT equal. The web thickness of the 460 Rowland brass is thicker than the 45 Super, which is thicker than the 45 ACP. It's the web thickness that makes the difference in pressure capabilities.

I love my 45 Super.

Here is my Springfield Mil Spec with the Clark .460 Rowland conversion. Also a .45ACP (center) with a 230gr JHP on top, 255 gr Buffalo Bore Hard cast on the bottom, showing the little bit of extra case length of the .460.

Yep. This is why case length isn't as critical as many think. How many of you actually check to see if your acp and parabellum cases are actually headspacing on the chamber or actually not quite? Of course - if you have push-feed issues, that longer headspacing may allow a misfire.

The Starline 45 Super brass is identical to the Starline 460 except for final length.

This is the reply from Starline to my email question

I have a 21SF converted and love it. The conversion on a 21SF Glock will reliably and accurately fire .45ACP +p, .45 Super and .460 Rowland. The only issues I have heard using the shorter cases in the Rowland chambers have been with 1911s. Here is the converted gun. I hunt with it and it is devasting to deer. Using a 265gr Beartooth sized .451" it is super accurate.


Here are the OAL for loads with different bullets worked up to function well in the Glock:


Here it is with a group shot from sand bags

Thank you for the correction.

What weight recoil spring do you use with your conversion?Do you use the Glock factory original?

Which barrel are you using in the 21SF, and was that a 25-yard group? Was pondering .45 Rowland v. Super v. G20 aftermarket barrel for my 21SF just last night...

Fixing to give my G29 to my oldest son.

In May 2000 I worked up 460 Rowland loads with mixed once fired 45acp brass from Scharch and 45 Super brass from Starline in a 20 ounce Patriot 45acp.
The manual said "No +P". Patriot Pistol 45acp designed by Nehemia Sirkis was first built but by Republic Arms in Chino CA, now built by Corba Arms Of Salt Lake City Utah. The two guys in a biz park that were Republic Arms sent me any parts I needed for free.

Recoil was horrific. I built a 38 pound triple recoil spring assembly, and then it was ok.

I also built a 45 acp rifle.
The pistol I only took a couple grains higher than published 460 Rowland loads, but in the rifle, I went all the way to case failures.





What I found was that:
1) ANY brand of 45acp brass and Starline 45 Super were all about the same in web thickness and max pressure.
2) VERY different from all other brass was Starline +P 45acp. It has thick walls way up past the web and less case capacity as a result.

I spoke to the male at Starline about this back in 2000 and he said the +P was for pistols with poor case support.

Copied from Starline web site.
_________________________________________________________________

45 SUPER BRASS (LARGE PISTOL PRIMER)
0.892 - 0.897 O.A.L.

45 Super* is the same externally as the 45 Auto, but has a thicker web, denser grain structure in the metal, and special heat treat process that enhances the durability of the case. Similar internal capacity as the 45 Auto. Some 45 Super load data was published by Triton Cartridge before they went out of business. *Loads to be shot ONLY in guns modified professionally to handle extreme pressures of this cartridge

JWP475,
I measured when I worked up the 460 Rowland loads in May 2000,
I will do it again 14.5 years later right now.
See if I can do a better job in my 60s than in my 40s

Web thickness:
Starline 45 super 0.187"
Starline 45 +P 0.164"
Starline 45 auto 0.164"
RP 45 auto 0.187"
WCC 92 0.183"
WCC 91 match 0.178"
TZZ 87 0.175"
WC 93 0.180"
IMI 45acp 0.176"
TZZ 92 0.177"
TZZ 87 0.183"
WW 45 auto 0.171"
WCC 87 match 0.177"
Federal 45 auto 0.155"
WCC match 97 0.176"
PMC 45 auto 0.173"
TZZ 92 match 0.187"
WCC 95 0.177"

But I can tell you this... Take the worst 45acp brass. Work it up to brass failure or short brass life in a strong rifle, like I did with a 98 Mauser. Back off a safety margin in the powder charge to assure long brass life under a wide range of conditions. You still have a 45acp load that has too much recoil [for a semi handgun with typical slide mass] and is a step above 460 Rowland published loads.

0) 45 acp....................... 185 gr 07.6 gr AA#5 jams w/stock Patriot spring
1) 45 acp........................185 gr 10.2 gr AA#5 1100 fps 18,000psi
2) 45 acp +P...................185 gr 10.8 gr AA#5 1200 fps 21,700 psi
3) 45 Super.....................185 gr 12.4 gr AA#5 1312 fps 28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland............... 185 gr 14.5 gr AA#5 1500 fps 38,800 cup
5) Easy extraction ............185 gr 15.0 gr AA#5 *rifle
6) Case starts to stretch....185 gr 15.2 gr AA#5 *rifle
7) difficult extraction ........185 gr 16.0 gr AA#5 *rifle
8) primer falls out ............185 gr 16.5 gr AA#5 *rifle

This a very interesting thread and thank you for the information. I've been working up loads with longshot and a 250 NOE in a four inch xd.

My 21SF is using a captive 25lbs spring. When I was running the gun as a .45 Super without a comp I used a non captive 24lbs spring. The group was shot at 25 yards from sandbags. This is 5 shots. When I had the guns as a Super I fired a 10 shot group that was just a hair over 1". Regardless the upgraded barrels make a huge difference in accuracy. I have had a slight issue with the ambi frame and Glock is going to replace it with a standard Glock Rail frame. Once I get it I am going to scope it for some 100 yards groups. I am expecting no more than 3". reflex264

My 21SF is using a captive 25lbs spring. The barre is the actual "Authentic .460 Rowland". When I was running the gun as a .45 Super without a comp using a Storm Lake barrel I used a non captive 24lbs spring. The group was shot at 25 yards from sandbags. This is 5 shots. When I had the guns as a Super I fired a 10 shot group that was just a hair over 1". Regardless the upgraded barrels make a huge difference in accuracy. I have had a slight issue with the ambi frame and Glock is going to replace it with a standard Glock Rail frame. Once I get it I am going to scope it for some 100 yards groups. I am expecting no more than 3". reflex264

I have a 1911 Clark conversion that I will sell for $250 shipped if you're interested.