I've not seen any H110 as of late and wondering if anyone has a good substitute for it in 45LC with 300gr to 335gr cast bullets. I've been a fan Taffin's writing and he's not steered me wrong in the past. Thanks for any input. stevek

I've tried Alliant 300-MP and it worked great. But I can't find any more of that, either......

Winchester 296 is the exact same powder, and Accurate #9 is a close substitute. Alliant 2400 will also work for the same application.

Add IMR 4227, but it's a little slower.

I forgot that one, it may even be better with those heavy bullets.

Thanks for the replys. I use the 2400 with the lighter bullets 250-270. I had heard that 296 is the same as H110, but thought I'd ask. Appreciate the confirmation. Has anyone tried the VV n100? If not I'll just grab some w296. Thanks.

I have not tried it yet in the .41 Magnum but have used AA1680 in a .41/.445 SM and it did well. It is just a little slower than H110 and if you look there are some loads listed for heavy bullets in Magnum cases...

Bob

I thought so...

I haven't loaded in several years, just don't have the time. But my carry .45 Colt load was a 270 grain Keith (RCBS 270-SAA mold) at around 900fps out of a 4 3/4" barrel. It was loaded with 4227 but I don't recall the powder charge. It was a little louder, a little more muzzle flash, but she was very accurate and 900fps at Colt SAA pressure levels.

Lil Gun.

Yup, don't forget LilGun; it's probably the closest performer to H110/296, other than maybe 300-MP.

Vitavouri N110 works well in Magnums. 41, 44 for myself. Probably hard to find as well.

Man, I want some Lil Gun!

Don't know if I'll ever find it before I die, though...

I've been using 4227 in my .44 Mag with decent results (it's all I could find). The reports of it seeming to shoot 'softer' appear to be true.

I'm also loading 300 gr cast at 900-1000 fps.

4227 is a great powder. All I use for my stiffer loads.

I've used a lot of N110 in 460 and 500 Smiths and the Casull. Also in the Beowulf and Savage ML. You can't use the same data, like 296, but you get around the same speed, often with better accuracy and less felt recoil, as reported by my feelers. Kinda hard to find around here, but when it's plentiful I prefer it to H110, even though it is more pricey.

I would not use Lil'Gun. Way too hot burning. I mean HEAT as in fire, not pressure.
My revolvers all get 296, 2400 is good.
I don't like 4227's as they were very sensitive to gun heat in the .44 but I don't know about the .45. 4227 is super in the .357 max though. Worth a try.
300 MP has not panned out, slower then H110/296 so not enough can be loaded and you should not down load it. Do NOT down load H110 or 296 either.
There is no true sub for H110/296.
Years ago I found a difference in accuracy between H110 and 296. SBH, S&W 29 and many others preferred 296 but the RH loved H110. WW got one batch while Hodgdon got another and I do not know if it is still the same today since Hodgdon has both under their control but I still stay with 296.

I have heard about flame cutting with lil'gun but have not seen it in my example of one Ruger. I dont shoot a ton of hot loads but when I do lil'gun pushes them as fast as I want to make them go. I run a 280 LBT at 1200fps and thats plenty of fun for me.

I think the flame cutting with Lil' gun comes from when it's used in cartridges with real high pressure (for a handgun) such as the Casull. I've not noticed an issue with the .44 mag and loads at around 33 to 35 Kpsi.

N110 is another powder I have used, and found it gave up very little in velocity and was much more accurate than H110/296, but that was using longer OAL rounds in a Ruger SRH. I have not tried it with a standard OAL of 1.610".

It does burn very clean.

I've used lil gun and 2400 in the past, and while they can work as a temporary substitute, I've yet to find a powder that works as well for providing top accuracy, consistency and velocity in magnum handgun loads.

The trouble is all handgun/shotgun powders are in short supply. I can hit every gun store in town and they're shelves will be bear of every pound of every handgun powder.

Another vote for 4227.




Travis

I have an 8-pound jug of H110 from which I've loaded under 20 rounds. I loathe the powder and would trade for IMR4227 or H4227 in a New York minute.

Lil'Gun

I think I've read there are temperature (flame cutting) and/or pressure excursion problems with Lil Gun, I forget which. (Both?)

What I do remember is that I researched it for possible use and nixed it.

Anyone else read this?

Wish you lived in the Denver area...

CH, my understanding is that the flame-cutting and excursions were with some of the later, higher pressure rounds such as the Casull. I have used it for about 3 years now, in .44 Mag, and holding the pressure under SAAMI max (I.E.<36 Kpsi)---no problems.

I am simply speaking for myself and with my particular pieces, both rifle and revolver.

300-MP is what I'd like to get hold of about 50 lbs of.....

[quote=Vic_in_Va]I think the flame cutting with Lil' gun comes from when it's used in cartridges with real high pressure (for a handgun) such as the Casull. I've not noticed an issue with the .44 mag and loads at around 33 to 35 Kpsi.



This has been my observation also.

Ramshot enforcer which I believe is the same, (or very close too), accurate 4100. Of course I haven't seen either for a very long time.

Lil,Gun turned a .357 into a soldering iron, 12 shots and I could not touch the barrel. Freedom will not warranty a gun shot with the stuff. It has no flame suppressor coating. It was made for the .410 shotgun.
4227 was used by most IHMSA shooters in the .44 mag so I tried it. I shot the best 200 meter group with it working a load. But at a shoot in hot weather I kept hitting lower and lower and primers got dead flat. At 200 meters I was 16 clicks over normal and hit 50 meters short with the last shot. I reduced the load, same problem. I changed to 296 and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80, last ram miss was my fault.
I used 4227 in the .357 max and shot a 39 out of 40 with no sight settings using a new Ruger out of box.
As calibers change so does powder results.
Seeing such things makes me stay away from some powders in other guns also.
Those that shot 4227 from the .44 on the line did the most cussing. You shoot five shots and call it good, how about 40 or 80? How about the hot days and sun? If I still had the max, it would be my powder but it will never go in my .44.
If you think Lil'Gun only does damage at high pressures, I am not going there because Lil'Gun generates lower pressures to start with. The pressure range and accuracy is good but it is HOT burning. All powders can exceed the melting point of steels but Lil'Gun does not let the steel absorb it and radiate it away fast enough.
Do what you want to, it is your gun after all.
Call me an SOB and dispute but things I never promote is to go over pressures or damage a gun in any way.
The rich man-poor man enters all the time too, some have 10 Freedoms or 20 Rugers while a man has ONE Ruger that took forever to buy. He wants the gun to shoot and last his lifetime. Don't blow smoke about what you do all the time without knowledge.

My favorite powder in the 45 Colt is 2400, 357 Magnum is H110 and Unique . I only use Lil'Gun in my 22 Hornet and 454 Cas

j

According to Freedom Arms it is not the pressure but the high flame temperature that is the problem with Li gun FA will not warranty any of their revolvers if Lil gun is used in them.
Bob Baker tested the powder in a 357 mag when they kept getting revolvers back with forcing cone erosion. Call FA and Mr. Baker will explain the problem with Lil gun.

Thank you John, 100% true.

The only pressure related anomaly I'm aware of with Lil'Gun is that at high pressures (talking 55-60K in 300 BLK) it actually loses a little velocity sometimes, particularly if the load is compressed.

Not to say it doesn't happen, but I personally never had any issues with flame cutting or bore erosion from Lil'Gun in 45 Colt +P loads, and haven't seen any issues in the 300 Blackout either, although that's a completely different thing.

One noticeable difference between H110/296 and Lil'Gun is the amount of flash and blast, with Lil'Gun making significantly less.

Better yet. Call Hodgdon. They will tell you that Lil'gun has the same burn temperature as H110, Win 296 and HP38.

Who do we believe? Who does the most testing across the board with different cartridges?

You take cartridges like the Casull,.460 and .500 that burn a lot of slow burning powders at high pressures, pushed by Rifle primers across the cylinder gap of a revolver where the partially burned powder is mixed with oxygen. It is a tough situation for a revolver design. Look back at the problems Ruger had with the .357 Maximum in the Blackhawks. This was before the introduction of Lil'gun.

It did not work so well in my revolvers, accuracy-wise, so I gave up on it there. 300-MP is currently my (unavailable) favorite.

In my 77/44, It has better accuracy than 296. I haven't tried 300-MP or N110 in the rifle.

During sighting-in sessions, I haven't noticed the temperature of the barrel getting any hotter than with 296, but then again I haven't read it with a digital thermometer, nor have I tended to fire rapid strings.

Though not a conclusive determination, in my experience Lil'gun, in a .44 Mag, and with SAAMI compliant loads does not have the negative effects seen with the bigger capacity and higher pressure loads. I am aware of it's reputation, though, and have kept an eye out for any signs of damage, but so far it's been good.

Freedom Arms 307-883-2468

I agree. Just keep an eye on things.

Another thing is, I do know that there are many different formulations of steel be it carbon or Stainless. I do not know what specific steels FA uses and what properties those alloys have in all respects.

Back in the early to mid '90's, Lil'gun was responsible for the development of two new cartridges. The CCI Velocitor and the .17 HMR. Both very good cartridges. I have used 1000's of both with no problems what so ever. But both operate at a much lower pressure level than what we are talking about here. ... and at much lower quantity of Lil'gun per cartridge.

Hodgdon 913-362-9455


Hi John, How are you?

Flame temperature might be the same but where is it applied and how fast? I am sure a pile of FFFFG BP has the same temps as cartridge but I assure you FFFFG is not where you want it in a rifle.
Powders have a suppressant coating to slow burn rates from one piece of powder to another to extend distance. The coating must be breached for flame to enter. Most powders are exactly the same formulation and only the coating and shape, size of grains changes the burn rate.
I think Lil'Gun has a different formulation where the coating has changed. There must be a flash over. It might not burn hotter but where is the heat in relation to your steel?

I am fine, think you.

I have Hogdon number and have spoken to them many times, thank you. I also believe Bob Baker after speaking with him.

In this kind of situation, the one with the least to lose.

I use H108 which was sold as being interchangeable with AA#9. It works in my Model 629. Fwiw

I know it isn't often mentioned when magnum handgun rounds are discussed, and I haven't done a huge wring-out of it, but I have found 800-X to shoot well in my revolvers from heavy 38 Special loads (180s) through 41 Mag (220s) as well as the 44 Mag. It isn't the fastest powder with heavy bullets in the 44, but it has been available which is a lot more than I can say for H110/W296 or Lil' Gun or 2400 - or just about anything else in handgun applicable propellents.

WW-296 is as close to H-110 as it gets.

That is because it is the exact same powder.

Say it ain't so…



(THis is a screenshot taken directly from the Hodgdon MSDS on their website.)

Not being able to find H110 has allowed me to learn how little use I really have for it.

One does need to get inventive in todays powder market.. Couple of times I have found things better than the old stand by.

Elmer Keith used 2400 in the 44 magnum. I do too and also have 4 pounds of H110 stashed BUT it is temp sensitive and requires magnum primers here in WYO winters.

4227 is also fine as are Red Dot, Unique and Green dot for light loads. A 300 gr hardcast at 900 fps will kill anything that walks in the lower 48.

My lettered 1926 New Service 45 Colt match with 300 gr plain base sorta Keith design bullet loafs out @800 fps. Using the Keith back position (old eyes), bouncing around Kitty Litter jugs at 100 yds is an 80% game. Valuable revolver so I never stress it.

One of the things I've always like about 110/296 is how easy it is to use; load heavy and it shoots well!

It troubles me that my latest 8-pounder is down to a trickle, but I have enough loaded heavy loads for the 44 and 45 revolvers to handle my 'needs'. I just don't have enough to go out and shoot that powder up so I have to resort to whatever I can find. Caught a pound of 800-X a few months ago, and a pound of HS-6 recently. Pistol powders are still scarce.