This post is not intended to cause controversy, just to get some expert opinions based on experience to help me decide how to start out with the Super 38 Auto for SD EDC.

I've decided to add a Super 38 Auto pistol. Already have the 45 ACP cartridge well covered in both 1911s and polymer frames, so this request for opinions is specifically about the Super 38 cartridge in a 1911. Purpose is filling a rotation slot for EDC not competition, so reliability is a primary consideration.

I'm not really interested in considering a Kimber and I want to stay with a Govt. model 1911, not Commander or Officer models, as I'd like to benefit from the full MV the Super 38 brings to the table in a 5" barrel.

Options are very different but they are what I've actually considered so far:
1) Buy a Springfield standard GI model in Super 38 (barrell installed by Springfield custom shop) available @ LGS, asking price ~$700 on consignment. Then I'd fit beavertail safety, new Wilson sear & hammer, add tritium sights. I'll do this work myself and need to buy few new parts - about $250 total, including a new rearsight + my own (free) labor. What would be a good price for a standard Springfield Armory pistol like this? Is this Springfield model reliable and durable enough to allow several thousand rounds of practice ammo a year and EDC?
2) Buy a Super 38 Kart easy fit barrel & bushing from Brownell's & fit it to my spare Colt S-80 1991-A1 slide.
3) Expand the budget and have a Super 38 Auto barrel installed by SA on a TRP model. Big price difference. For those who have one, is the TRP performance worth the many extra bucks this option requires?
4) What are other options I should think about before laying down some hard earned greenbacks in getting a Super 38 Auto 1911 into my EDC rotation?

The most recent run(s) of Colt GM Supers are very good pistols out of the box. They are accurate, reliable and have good triggers. If you can do your own fitting of parts there's no reason you can't set one up with a beavertail safety, skeleton hammer, etc.. If you're patient you can get a NIB for somewhere around $825 - 850. They seem to be doing a good job on their barrels and bushings and it's reflected in the accuracy. If you're really motivated to mess around with tweaks then fit a match bushing. But shoot it first. It probably doesn't 't need it - at all. The Colt mags have functioned flawlessly in both of mine. As for sights, the standard 3 dots are quite serviceable. The sight setup on my TALO Super commander - black rear, Trijicon front - is excellent. Bottom line, I'd stay with the Colt platform and dress it up to suit my taste and budget. It'll give you the mist gun for the money. And a damned good gun.

Thanks for all the info sounds encouraging. Are talking about the pistols Colt calls the 1991 series?

Yup. Model 02991. I shoot it better than the lightweight Commander and the Commander is a fine pistol.

Thanks. GS going on this weekend in town so I might get out there tomorrow and look around to see what might show up.

Can't say much about the full sized one but I carried a 1952 LW Commander .38 Super as a duty weapon for many years. Never a lick of trouble, reliable as all get out with Speer Gold dots, ball and Winchester Silvertips. Always went bang and put them where I wanted them, still ticking after many thousands of rounds.

I have a Springfield 1911A1 .45ACP fitted with a complete . 38 Super assembly; Colt barrel, slide, bushing, and a custom muzzle break. I'm happy with it, easy to swap back and fourth, but I'm a casual handgun shooter at best.

If you are looking for a full size Government Model that you won't have to do anything other than shoot, take a look at the Kimber Stainless Target II. They have a BoMar style rear sight. I believe at one time there was also a Combat model with a Novak rear.

Already has:
Great sights
Ramped barrel
Beavertail safety
Beveled mag well
And extremely accurate..

I bought mine in 2003 cleaned the course of fire of two combat matches and then a friend talked me out of the gun. Bought the gun back from him in 2013 as he shot it once...

Price new for the Target II is $1000 but I have seen mint used ones for as low as $750.

If you want to go SA, if you can't find the .38 Super platform you want see if there is what you want in 9mm. Drop in a .38 Super barrel and you are done.

I have Super barrels from Colt, BarSto, Kart, Nowlin and ROTO 4M and they are all excellent...a ROTO 4M barrel will set you back $50 at SARCO....

My carry guns are all Commanders, as in aluminum frame. In combat matches I shoot them with the same speed and accuracy as a GM and it is faster for the first shot from the holster..

Bob

I would get this one if I was going to buy a .38 Super. I have no connection or knowledge or affiliation with this gun or owner


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=478803141

The one thing that would make it perfect would be to have it sent off to be bobtailed.

Thanks Bob. My experience is like yours with respect to the Commanders and OMs being faster for the 1st shot out of the holster. In 45ACP the slightly lower MV in the 4-4.25" bbls doesn't concern me much.

Thinking that a greater part of the 38 Super's efficacy is due to high MV, I've been reluctant to consider other than the GM's 5" bbl. What has been your experience with the MV difference between your GM & Commander 38s?

For the 3/4" of barrel...less than 50 fps in most cases...

One actually has more concerns over a .45 with a short barrel because most .45 loads are already under 950 fps. Loose much more and the hollowpoints won't open at all.

With a CorBon .38 Super going from 1450 fps to 1425 fps is within the area of standard deviation from 5" barrel...so one won't even notice the difference.

...and to me Commanders just point and balance better than a GM....

Bob

Pulled out my .38 Super journal and looked at the factory and reloads I have chronographed:

Remington 130 FMJ:
GM: 1180
Comm: 1148

Winchester 125 JHP (old soft point style):
GM: 1225
Comm: 1150

CorBon 115 JHP:
GM: 1500
Comm: 1460

CorBon 124 JHP:
GM: 1380
Comm: 1340

CorBon Powr'Ball
GM: 1550
Comm: 1520

SuperVel 107 SP:
GM: 1385
Comm: 1325

Reloads:

124 gr Hornady FP/6.5 Unique
GM: 1225
Comm: 1150

115 Sierra JHC/9.3 SR4756
GM: 1450
Comm: 1445

A few thoughts....

I have one done by CheckMate...they did nice work.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=478678915

This is one of the TALO Commanders...perfect out of the box.. Not many left on the market and this is the cheapest NIB one around..

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=478253851

Dan Wesson has a nice one also...I am not a fan of checkered front straps however...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=478332588

Great info, see your point about insignificant MV loss with the Commander barrel. I've been looking at the Colt & DW Commander Supers on-line too.

I'd like to see the DW and handle it to see if the price premium over the Colt makes sense. Headed for the GS this morning to see what's locally available and probably decide then what to do.

Just got back from the GS. Found 2 Super 38s, despite it being a fairly good sized show. One was a RIA and the other a collector Colt pre-Series 70 Colt GM. The Colt's asking price was $2400, which didn't make sense for what I want.

I was able to handle a DW Guardian in 45 ACP and was duly impressed. Looks like I need to look in GB for a TALO Commander or DW Guardian - right now this would be my first choice if the price is right.

Thanks to all who helped. This experience is much more like the old 24HCF community than some of the recent shennanigans.

Pre-Series 70 Colts now start at $2K for a mint one...even shooter grade guns bring $1700....and yes, it is NUTZ...

Bob

I haven't handled the DW but what RJM noted about the TALO Commander is certainly true. He turned me on to them and I'm glad he did. I was looking at the fit on mine today and it really is excellent.

This is my TALO...switched out the thin grips to standard thickness ebony, arched mainspring housing, Dawson adjustable rear sight and extra barrels in 9x23 Winchester and 9mm....







Stock....







[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911/DSCF6166-1.jpg[/img]



Bob

You mentioned converting guns to .38 Super, just some words on that. The .45 and .38/9mm frames are different in the feed ramp. It’s much easier to convert a .38/9mm to .45 than it is the other way around. Most .38 Super barrels will slightly overhang the feed ramp of a .45 ACP gun unless you modify the whole thing for a ramped barrel. So you’re probably better off going for an all new gun. Either that, or use that slide you have as the starting point to build a new gun starting with a new Caspian .38 Super frame.

That's as close to "convertible perfection" as one can get in a 1911 carry gun. Some thug, or pair of thugs should be honored to meet their maker while looking at the business end of Bob's super commander.

Mine is tricked out exactly like Bob's (thanks to Bob) except for the switch barrel setup. It's a good carry gun.

Went back to my LGS yesterday, where I originally found the SA 38 Auto Super and got a very close look at its consignment mate. That other 1911 is SA, from the SA Custom Shop, that has been turned into a 9x23 Win with all the features of the SA Loaded model, minus the LH thumb safety - as I prefer anyway - Novak sights, etc. Ready to go.

While there spoke for a while with the GS, who while a young guy prefers, uses and carries 1911s. He sells a lot of Glocks - calls them the AK-47 of pistols, because "they are loose, but work all the time." He ought to know as he's an approved Glock & S&W armorer and also does good 1911 work.

Also heard about some DWs, arriving NIB at the LGS with significant rust on the SS surfaces. Rapid replacement by CZ, but not a great recommendation for an EDC pistol, especially at the DW price point and the humidity in my geography.

He's looked the 9x23 over and tells me it's in great shape and shot very little. Also found out he'd fit a spare 38 Auto Super barrel for not much money. I can get 9x23 dies and brass from the current owner as part of the deal and I'd plan to shoot Starline 38 Super Comp (rimless 38 Auto Super) brass in the other barrel.

So at this point, I'm in a bit of a different place than I'd been pursuing, but it would still get me the 38 Auto Super I started after and a second pretty hot 9mm. What do you all think?

Sounds like a GREAT shooter...and if you don't mind the weight a good carry gun.

As to 9x23 Winchester...one can ONLY use Winchester brass to make full 9x23 velocities, as in 1450 fps with a 125 grain bullet. That is why there are no commercial loads left on the market except for the Winchester whitebox 125 grain soft points. The other companies, CorBon, Georgia Arms, etc. all used the Starline brass and all had big smilies on their brass when shot from guns with unsupported chambers...so all have been discontinued. 9x23 runs at 55K PSI vs .38 Super at 37K. You get an extra 100 fps with a 125 grain bullet but is it worth it...to me it is not. I have two dedicated 9x23 1911s setup and a case of the Winchester Soft Points and a few boxes of Silvertips...they rarely get shot... It was a shame that the caliber wasn't introduced back in the early 1980s...it would have blown everything else out of the IPSC market.

But if you can get it right and have a Super barrel and maybe a 9mm barrel installed that gun will do everything you want it to...

Bob

^^^^^^

I learn new stuff all the time listening/reading what Mr. Super aka Bob writes.

Makes me remind myself to resist temptation, in regards to setting up a new caliber..

Bob's .38 Super 1911 collection, as well as converted wheel guns is almost too much!

Thanks Bob. What you say is in line with what I've read as well. I'll have to see what kind of brass the current owner has and then decide whether the 9x23 setup is worthwhile.

I have a TRP in 45 ACP & it's an extremely fine gun........very accurate, totally reliable, snugly fitted & one of the best out-of-the-box triggers on any 1911 I've ever owned.

Since SA would do the conversion work, I'll assume it will be reliable & fitted well so that's not a drawback.

If you want to spend the money & want a 5" gun, I can't see you going wrong with this option.

But for EDC, I prefer to go with a 4.25" gun with an alloy frame & my choice of what you are considering would be the DW Guardian.........I also have one in 45 ACP.

The DW feels way better in the hand than any Colt ever made except maybe a GC & my 45 has been an absolutely perfect gun in all respects.

Personally, I prefer the 45 ACP & really can't see the enamoration or performance on target with a Super & besides, I don't want to start in with another chambering.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

Speaking of Supers...rather than starting another thread just thought post something Super here...

Picked these grips up a few years ago on another 1911 that I bought just to get the grips...was able to find some old adds that picture this grip and they were reportedly made from Indian elephant ivory... Just put them on this old Colt to see how they match....













...and yes I do shoot it...

Bob

A pistol from the Springfield Custom Shop is going to be a nice pistol. If one of those fell on my radar and if the price was real good I'd probably buy it myself.

I'd want to know if it's a ramped barrel or not.

Either way, you might be able to get a great deal on it because of the "oddball caliber"...(even if 9x23 is the best .35 round option...just don't mention that to them...tell them you'll do them a favor and take it off their hands real cheap because ammo is hard to get.)

But I used to load Major 9, and the 9x23 is hands down the best of those 3 rounds!

If you want to load to max MV 9x23 is the way to go, and I guarantee there is no need to load it to 50k...I don't know what genius would want to do that...only the nutzo comp shooters, because they got tired of blowing up Super brass... but considering that for real world use, 9mm, Super, Largo are all going to end up in about the same ballpark as far as terminal effects go...a decent ballpark to be in, but the same ballpark, none-the-less.

The SA is a cool pistol just as it sits there, so I wouldn't want to bother with the expense and hassle to have a new barrel fitted to step-down to the 38 Super case.

That makes no sense to me, personally, but it would be your choice, and there's nothing really wrong with it, but I'd likely put that money into 9x23 brass and bullets and powder and dies, and enjoy that fine pistol just as it is already tricked out and optimized!

I could see a spare 9mm barrel for simplicity, and if I were going to use it for competition, but for the cost, if I wanted to shoot a 9mm bullet out of a case a few mm shorter, or shoot 38 Super, I would put the money toward a package deal at a great price on that other 38 Super pistol...I'd buy both of them...you can't have too many you know!

(The consignment dude probably needs the dough or he wouldn't be selling those 2 pistols...hint!!!!)

The next real step up from the nine is to the 40, and I know lots of guys that used to shoot Super that are now shooting 40 in their 1911s.

But if you don't currently have a LW Commander in your collection, I'd plan to get one sometime soon.

Personally, I'd just pick up one in plain old boring 45...there's a lot can be said about 45 for carry.

No big deal...that's actually encouraging, because it might mean they are using a tougher stainless alloy with less chromium to prevent galling.

The more stainless a steel is, the less useful it is for weapons...why they would not be shipped with an appropriate protectant coating or inside an oil soaked plastic bag like the old Colts is the real question...probably dealers whining about it.

I'd buy that DW at 50% off and bead blast it...I'd be bead blasting a stainless slide anyway, at a minimum, because you don't want to carry anything shiny...it lights up like a torch at night.

Having said that I don't actually own any stainless 1911 slides. Any of the ones I might carry might be phosphate and moly coated, but stainless or chrome moly could easily be nitrided...or just coated with Simonize Car Wax...if they still make that...or Meguiars...if not.

I've not found it difficult to prevent rust, but a little rust just adds a little character.

Thats a Bad Ass Officer's ACP.

Love the serial #.

You could probably triple your money selling that close to the border of Mexico. Seriously.

Makes me want to polish my Officer's ACP. I need to shoot that thing, as I have not done so in years that I can recall.

Whooops,

Forgot to add that the grips are smokin' cool!

Thanks...Colt made 500 of them. It is the only Officers length slide 1911 that Colt ever made in .38 Super.

As to the serial number 007...that is one of the El series guns done for Lew Horton. If you bought the first one out, the El Presidente, you got to have right of first refusal for the rest of the series with your serial number. I walked into a shop in Ct. about 2004 and some guy had traded in his whole El series...he had both 007 and 008. My shooting/teaching partner bought 008. She later sold it for a nice profit at $1300...they now start at $4K...and yea I shoot this one...

Bob

WOW, beautiful piece.........but I really love the smooth ebony grips on your TALO.

MM

...my preference also. Most of my 1911s wear all black ebony or smooth black Micarta with silver Colt medallions. Had two sets of ivory grips given to me by a girlfriend and this hand carved set picked up in a trade.

So wildcat...what are you doing on a SUPER...

Bob