You hear a lot of crap in a gun shop but the guy I talked to about a NIB Uberti 45 LC told me they were as strong as the old style Ruger Vacaros. I really doubt that is true but thought I would ask those I would trust.

Doubtful. I don't think the cylinder is as big in diameter as the Ruger and I've never had one cross my bench that wasn't SOFT. Decent enough guns but they're built on a 150yr old blueprint using what appears to be 150yr old metallurgy. I'd not be stoking one with ruger only loads. Of course lots of stuff can be made very dead very quick with a 255 cruising along at 900fps.

They are as strong as a Colt Single Action, and not a bit stronger.

A buddy bought a Cattleman .357 mag. Started out shooting factory loads. It shot way left of target. After a lot of load experimentation we noticed a trend with this gun. The lighter the load the more it shot true to form. Light 38 special loads were right on. Did not matter what bullet we used. The only thing we came up with was that the right side of the frame where the loading gate cut out is,was flexing under the hotter loads.

Succinct and absolutely correct.

The 1873 Cattleman is available in 44 magnum, therefore they must be stronger than a Colt Single Action Army.

Thanks guys. That was pretty much the way I was thinking.

I have seen then in 357 Mag, 44-40, and 45 LC, but have not seen the 44 Mag.

I would say that is correct. A few years ago i went to a auction in scottsdale, for a movie prop company. They had a bunch of uberti's cross in the mid 300dollar range, which i thought was silly. Looking in the barrels they had been shot a lot with blanks and were sewer pipes. The guy who owned the prop company also had one old style vaquero ruger which i picked up in the mid three's. And another poster had it right.
for some reason about ten years ago i loaded some 250grain pills with 9grains of unique. Fired them recently. One cylinder full in a smith, didn't like it at all. They ejected fine and not sticky but just a lot of blast and recoil. So i fired the rest of them through a redhawk the other day. Didn't like them any better in that one either. I am going to stay with my traditional load of 8grains of unique.
I should post sometime a picture of a saa lead bullet i fired through a 8inch .45smith it expanded, a hollow point, to about .90 wide. And that was not with 9grains either.
I would much much rather have a ruger either old style or the new style vaquero than an uberti. The new style vaquero can be loaded hotter than the colts, but just not to the "ruger" only standards which are not needed anyway.

brian pearce had a great article in handloader a few years ago comparing the new vaquero to the old, with recommended loads for I II and III categories. I being the old colts, three being the ruger only loads. The II were for the new vaquero.
I like .45colt and like the smiths. But there is just something about a 4inch saa style revolver. They are easy to carry and quick to point. The only disatvantage i have found is slow to reload.

Here you go, 44 mag.


http://www.uberti.com/1873-single-action-cattleman-revolvers

i might add scott, one day being the idiot i am, i by mistake fired a .44magnum in a old style ruger vaquero. Interesting casing when i got it out of the gun. As to the gun, no damage at all probably because of the smaller bullet and gas bypass going down the barrel. But it does lead to them being plenty strong. One of the things that led me to the .45colt was being able to launch that big fat pill without all the blast and recoil of a magnum. I forget that now and then.
I still have a couple of boxes of buffalo bore .45colt ammo, that i got to take to bear country in colorado. Haven't shot it yet.

if you remind me prior to quemato, i will bring an assortment of .45colts and ammo to indulge your lust.

The old Ruger Vaccaro is the same strength as the SB. The New Vacarro is not.

Thanks. Now I know.

Don't count them before you come.

Yes I have the 45 LC lust. I first got around 1973 but have never owned one. Someday...

I do agree that a sa 45 LC with around a 5 inch barrel is a might fine choice for carrying in the woods. Nothing I will ever run into it would not stop. For some reason I just point a sa faster and better than any da I have held.

Scott, I agree about the clunky Vaquero being stronger, but I'd still take the Uberti between the two. The New Vaquero is more tempting.

The .45 Colt 'limited' to standard loads is still a great round and the Uberti would do just fine.

Absolutely. When you take it out there and start shooting things, you begin to see that you really don't need a "magnum" when you're using a .45 Colt. I had a load that pushed a 275 grain bullet to right around 900fps, and that leveled an 1,800lb bull that was trying to kill everyone. Bullet penetrated the skull and went nearly 1 foot into the neck.

scott
Was that a LGS down near were you are staying or maybe was staying as I don't know if you are still down the road a bit from me. Cheers NC

Not necessarily so! The first .44 Mags were built on Colt SAAs and most of them blew up, however, Both Keith and Casull used Colt SAAs to generate pressures and loads that aren't used in factory .44 Mag loadings today.

The Colt SAA is actually a lot stronger than it's given credit for, but the Uberti gun that is chambered for the .44 Mag, is (I'd be willing to bet) given different heat treatment, and perhaps a different cylinder pin arrangement as well as a few other refinements that one cannot see from a photo.

Interesting to know just what they are.

No, a shoe repair shop in Canby with a FFL. Old fart like you and me. He has several interesting handguns there.

Here's a picture of a Uberti and 3rd. Gen Colt, both in 45 Colt.
Weight, feel, and accuracy are about the same.
Only difference is the Uberti is about $1000 less.
I shoot both the Uberti and the Colt, but only go out in the woods and fields with the Uberti,
I can live with dings and scratches on a $450 gun, but not on a $1,500 one.

Hey Scott,

Another remind me...

I loaded up some 255 lswc with HS-6 pushing it and I really like the combo.

So...

Remind mind me before Quemado and I will bring that load and some "unloaders".

I will remind you both. Just remember to not count your 45 LCs before you leave.


Someday I will have one. I just hope I an not to old yo use it.

I saw both at Cabelas last night. They are beautiful.

There was another SA 45 LC at Cabelas last night. The kid behing the counter said he thought it was made by Ruger under some Italian name. He admitted he was not sure. Anybody know about Ruger manufacturing another line?

If I can get everything squared away I have a 270 gr hollow point mold that I am really itchin to try out.

New to this casting stuff and still putting together everything I need.

^^^This^^^

I've got an early model Ruger. Vaquero that I had Bowen cut down and make into a Sherriffs model, with a 3" barrel and S&W J frame adjustable sights.
It will handle a 300 gr WFN LBT hard cast bullet at 1350 fps all day long without a hitch. All though it's not very pleasant to shoot with that load, It does makes a nice little packer in bear country, riding in a El Paso Saddlery Tanker shoulder holster.

I'll bring it to Quemado this year and let y'all shoot all the heavy loads y'all want to try through it.

I would love to see it but common sense on you part would be to not let me touch it.

You can ask Ron, Brian, or Blue about what happens when I see pretty guns.


Look forward to seeing you there.

That Vaquero rendition sounds interesting. How does it feel in the hand, balance etc?

It's a little heavy, but it points extremely well for a snub nose.

Looking forward to it, Scott!

scott, you know that drug store in springerville has a pretty good gun shop in it.

I have that 270grain rcbs mould but i have a clone of it made by the guy in hungary that throws keith solids, and the hollowpoints, including pentad hollowpoints.
They do open up and are quite pleasant to shoot. Which is the reason i am going to back off on the unique.

The first handgun i ever shot was my dad's colt bisley in 38wcf.
it killed a grizz at the turn of the century, and a guy on whiskey row.
I have more than one hand gun, but about the slickest i ever found to draw and fire was a saa bellly gun. I have debated the slow reloading, but with that big fat bullet, you don't need fifteen rounds. The only negative would be in a crowd situation and i am not sure even then.
I will bring along a few of the early vaquero long barrels ones.
I couldn't swear to it, but you try them against the short barreled one and you could swear they had a action job.
They came from the estate of a well known lead bullet maker in the area, and i am pretty sure he knows the ruger guy in north phx that breaths on them, they are real slick.

Hey Ron,

If life gets in the way and I don't get around to it can you bring some of the Hungarian samples with you?

The molds sure look pretty but I have a lot of things to do before I get my first casting.

Sure would like to try them in a Ruger and the Low Wall.

i intended too, but have something other than paper to mess with.
the hollow points really do open up.
I am saving milk jugs right now for a similar bullet. A 310 grain 44magnum round.
last time i tried it, it went through 7 gallon jugs of water.
next time i am loading u p about 15jugs.
these in the jugs are keith style solids.

I doubt they do anything extra to the 44 mag as all clambering are the same price. Heat treating can increase hardness a bit, but can not increase strength.

Just learned that the 44 mag is a larger frame than the other chamberings.

I've only seen the .44 mag Uberti with the adjustable sights (forget what it's called). It was a nice revolver, but the frame was closer in size to a Blackhawk.

It's called a Callahan. The frame is smaller than a Blackhawk for sure. Whether or not the fame is larger than the other SAA replicas I couldn't tell you, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is a little bigger. Here's the one I had:

My wife has one like Whitworths that she bought for $30 with a broken sear spring. It is larger than the SAA and has a Dragoon grip frame. Hers is branded Iver Johnson and has a CC frame and brass grip frame. The bore is gigantic, .430 cast bullets of harder alloy skid and keyhole at 7 yards, jacketed stuff shoots okay. Think I slugged the bore and it was something like .433.
Anyway it's stamped under the ejector housing, Uberti blah blah Italy yadda yadda and has the same sights as the one in the pic.

She likes it good enough and didn't pay much for it, it's her tent gun when we camp while the bears are out.

Yep, that be the one; thought it looked like a decent revolver. What I remember was a much thicker top strap. Maybe the overall size isn't much bigger, but the top strap is nearly as thick as a Blackhawk...not quite there, but almost.

The cylinder is larger diameter in the 44 mag, I learned.

[/quote]I doubt they do anything extra to the 44 mag as all clambering are the same price. Heat treating can increase hardness a bit, but can not increase strength.
[/quote]

So, you found out they in fact do something different.
As for the heat treating, I'm under the impression heat treating does in fact impact on strength as "hardness" has a lot to do with tensile strength, doesn't it? The whole 1903 Springfield issue with dangerous bolts had to do with tensile strength and hardness.

The Colts that Elmer and Dick Casul turned into magnums (those that didn't turn into grenades) were done so with changes in heat treating, not dimensional changes.

So, it appears the .44 Magnum Uberti is different from the other chamberings? So, it would seem that "copies" of the Colt SAA are no stronger than a Colt SAA, while "renditions" of the Colt SAA, can be made to be stronger. A rendition is not the same as a copy.

I have spent 44 years making a living with steel and the tensile strength is in the material. Heat treating will increase or decrease hardness depending on which way you are trying to take it. Hardness is good in certain applications. The 44 mag Uberrti larger than the other clamberings as I posted above. I did not realize this in my first posts on the subject.

I doubt they do anything extra to the 44 mag as all clambering are the same price. Heat treating can increase hardness a bit, but can not increase strength.
[/quote]

So, you found out they in fact do something different.
As for the heat treating, I'm under the impression heat treating does in fact impact on strength as "hardness" has a lot to do with tensile strength, doesn't it? The whole 1903 Springfield issue with dangerous bolts had to do with tensile strength and hardness.

The Colts that Elmer and Dick Casul turned into magnums (those that didn't turn into grenades) were done so with changes in heat treating, not dimensional changes.

So, it appears the .44 Magnum Uberti is different from the other chamberings? So, it would seem that "copies" of the Colt SAA are no stronger than a Colt SAA, while "renditions" of the Colt SAA, can be made to be stronger. A rendition is not the same as a copy.

[/quote]
i am often wrong, but i think the issue with the 1903 early number springfields was with the reciever, not the bolts.

No, you are absolutely correct.

Dan

the heat treating thing kind of caught my eye. I have brophy's book and others talking about how they did in on the early springfields, and the problems with it, but here's the thing.
I have a early 1903 springfield, made without checking in my records either the first of second month of production, which was actually in 1906. It was rebarreled in 1918 and was in gvt service for a lot of years. I haven't fired it tho, but somebody sure did.
I don't doubt some of those 1903's let go, but suspect it is much overrated.
apologize for the diversion, but it got me to thinking.
As to the uberti unless one wanted to pursue the heavy ruger only loads, and for what reason i don't know, the original loading for the 45colt has worked for how many years?
I made up my mind last week shooting some heavier than normal but certainly not top end loads through a ruger redhawk i am going back to 8grains of unique. Works for me.

A lot of food for thought Ron.

Scott, I have owned all the guns in question. IMO the Uberti is as good as current Colt's. If a man hungers for a Colt, that is all that will do. If you want the same look and feel and a gun that is just as good, Uberti costs a lot less. Only the name is different.

Uberti has made 44 Mag. versions for many years. I've owned a couple. They are indeed larger than the regular Cattleman SAA knock-offs.

The Iver Johnson is an old gun, probably discontinued in the 80's. It is a very light-framed 44 Mag.

The Uberti Cattleman SAA knock off is not going to be as strong as a Ruger Vaquero. They are every bit as strong, if not stronger, than a New Vaquero. If a man wants authenticity and doesn't want to pay for the Colt name, Uberti is the way to go. You will not be able to load it as hot as a Vaquero, but you can load it in the same range as a New Vaquero. I'd rather have one than a Ruger.

About 2000 or so, I had a 3rd Gen Colt in .45 Colt that shot very well, but had some finishing issues that troubled me a bit, namely an unsightly gap between the frame and the ejector rod housing. Also, the metal to metal fit on the grip frame to receiver wasn't as nice as it could have been. I recall paying about $400 for the gun and didn't mind because it was a "genwine" Colt.

Then, I walked into a gunshot and found this baby. It was .44 Special and it too was in the $400 dollar price range. Bought it. The darn thing shoots wonderfully, though I haven't yet regulated the sights so that it hits where they point. They shoot a little low and left, and I'll get around to it someday.



What I noticed most, what that the Italian guns are finished more like the 1st and 2nd Gen Colts, with refinements the 3rd Gen Colts did away with.

I liked the Cimarron (Uberti parts) so much, I doubled my money on the sale of the Colt.

My favorite load is a 240 grain cast bullet at 900fps.

http://www.engineersedge.com/material_science/heat_treatment.htm

This article tends to disagree with you, but the author undoubtedly has fewer years in the business.

I don't know what Elmer did, but I am pretty sure Dick Casull didn't heat treat the frames of the Colts he converted. The first line of defense is still the cylinder, so when he affixed an oversized five-shot cylinder to a SAA, the strength is markedly improved upon just because of the cylinder. However, let me confirm with Dick.

I went by what Jack Huntington told me, since he works on them I figured he knew. He is an extremely accomplished gunsmith/ maker.

again, i ain't preaching to the choir, as i know little of anything about this stuff. But something else i just thought of.
On some garand rifles the butt of the reciever was dipped I think in moulden lead to give it a heat treatment. They are distinctive that have this treatment from the colors.
I think it was done to increase the strength of the reciever.
And i just got to thinkin. I wonder if anybody ever dipped the mouth of a casing in hot lead to anneal it? Wonder if it would work or just stick to the casing? My oddball thought for the day.

You're probably right. It's been 40 years since I read the old G&A articles.

Lead was just a medium for tempering after hardening.