I have switched to 147 grain loadings and wonder what the consensus is on the 9mm subsonics vs the lighter 9mm bullets? I have come to wonder if the 115 +P+ bullets will exit or penetrate deeply enough?
I practice with 115 grain what evers. But I carry 124 grain loads,for no particular reason.
124 grains seems to be a good balance between mass and velocity for THIS cartridge.
This discussion will never end, neither will it be settled which is better, a 9mm or 45 Auto. For the sake of simplicity it matters more where the bullet goes than the bullet itself. This is true for any cartridge...
124's in +p, at least in the 9mm style.
If I was going to carry a Nine it would be with a 147 grain JHP. Any old ball for practice.
There was a Larry Vickers posting on Facebook the other day in which he asked 10 "experts" to choose between the 9 and the .45. All but Hackathorn picked the 9 (including, to my great surprise, Bill Wilson). One, or maybe two of them said, "there's no such thing as a magic bullet….." but then went on to comment on the technological advances in projectiles having made the 9 a great cartridge. Struck me as a self-negating argument, but logic doesn't play much of a role in these types of discussions. Experts like DocRocket assure us that today's trauma surgeons can't tell the difference between 9 and .45 wounds, so maybe there are "magic" bullets, or at least very efficient ones. FWIW, a close friend just finished Bob Vogel's course and reported that Bob and a few other top IDPA shooters are using 147 gr. bullets as they feel that they recoil less.
I don't go by bullet weight, but by bullet. I like the Corbon DPX 115, Speer Gold Dot 124 and Winchester Ranger 127. From what I've read, they all do the job.
This is a "killer bullet" CEB 90 GR......who ever gets shot by it better go to the best trauma center if they make it.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/PDGImages/PHD%209MM%2090GR.jpg
I use standard pressure 124 gr Federal HST. The HST bullet seems like a good one and, I think 124 is a good blend of weight and velocity.
Ernie
I practice with 115gr but carry 147 grain. I use either the Federal Hydro shock or HST.
The 147gr. seem to shoot better and have less recoil than the lighter stuff.
If it is going to be a 115 pushed fast it had better be bonded or a DPX. I would have no qualms using the Gold dot 115+p load but I prefer the 124 flavors. I would carry gold dot 124+p or HST 124+p as the first choice in 9mm. If I was not so cheap I would grab the 115 DPX.
I like the +p loads because I feel they give an extra margin for reliability when shooting one handed, injured etc. I know I can make a Glock or M&P choke with standard 124 if I limp wrist it but cannot make it happen with +p loads.
Copy and paste from Dr. Gary K. Roberts (aka docGKR) below:
"The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)"
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo
Forgot to mention that the list above from Dr. Roberts was updated 2/6/15.
For those not familiar with docGKR (from 2008, so a little outdated):
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at Stanford University Medical Center; this is a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center were he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency at Navy Hospital Oakland in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied
at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performi
ng military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent
wound ballistic testing and analysis. He remains a Navy Reserve officer and has recently served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC ammunitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound
ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition,
he is a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and
Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.
There was a Larry Vickers posting on Facebook the other day in which he asked 10 "experts" to choose between the 9 and the .45. All but Hackathorn picked the 9 (including, to my great surprise, Bill Wilson). One, or maybe two of them said, "there's no such thing as a magic bullet….." but then went on to comment on the technological advances in projectiles having made the 9 a great cartridge. Struck me as a self-negating argument, but logic doesn't play much of a role in these types of discussions. Experts like DocRocket assure us that today's trauma surgeons can't tell the difference between 9 and .45 wounds, so maybe there are "magic" bullets, or at least very efficient ones. FWIW, a close friend just finished Bob Vogel's course and reported that Bob and a few other top IDPA shooters are using 147 gr. bullets as they feel that they recoil less.
Someone posted an extensive list of top pistol instructors including Vickers, Hackathorn, Haley, Costa, etc. and the vast majority carried a 9mm for personal defense. Either a Glock or M&P. I don't recall a single one choosing an XD or a 40 of any flavor.
I use Winchester Ranger T 127 gr. +P+.
My Browning HP always liked 147 grain best. My CZ 75D PCR is most accurate with 124 grain HydraShock.
The new to me Glock 19 also seems to do best with the 124 grain stuff.
I don't go by bullet weight, but by bullet. I like the Corbon DPX 115, Speer Gold Dot 124 and Winchester Ranger 127. From what I've read, they all do the job.
I prefer either the Speer Gold Dot 124 +P load, or the Corbon +P+ 115 HP.
I'll have to buy some of that Winchester Ranger 127 gr ammo, and see how it shoots in my 9mm's. Looks to be a good round.
funny no one but the hoi polloi seems to like the Croatian pistols. I think the 147 grain Remington HTP seems good. Also Chuck Hawks says never use a 147 grain 9mm bullet and he is such a dip, that they must be good. All I know is that +P+ 115 will not shoot thru too much due to a dog attack a few years ago, into the head it don't matter I guess.
I have switched to 147 grain loadings and wonder what the consensus is on the 9mm subsonics vs the lighter 9mm bullets? I have come to wonder if the 115 +P+ bullets will exit or penetrate deeply enough?
115 grain +P+ JHP for me. Cor Bon 115 grain +P JHP is the best and has the same velocity as most +P+ if you are going factory loads and don't care about the cost.
http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/corbon/original-jhp/handgun/sd09115-20
All I know is that +P+ 115 will not shoot thru too much due to a dog attack a few years ago, into the head it don't matter I guess.
Which bullet? he bullet is more important than he pressure rating
I carry a .38 Super daily because it comes close to the .357 Magnum 125 grain round at 1400 fps... 115s make 1450+ and 124s make 1350+. .357 SIG rounds are doing about the same from a slightly shorter barrel and have an excellent track record.
In 9mm I prefer the Buffalo Bore or CorBon 115s because they both break 1300 fps...
When it comes to 9mm/.35 caliber guns I''l give up a little penetration for some speed...
Bob
124 Speer GD +p. One of my carry guns won't tolerate 147 g bullets so I run 124 in all my 9mm for consistency sake.
I don't go by bullet weight, but by bullet. I like the Corbon DPX 115, Speer Gold Dot 124 and Winchester Ranger 127. From what I've read, they all do the job.
If I'm carrying 9mm, I'm carrying Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ for years. It hasn't changed much in the last 10 yrs, but is still up in the top tier.
There was a Larry Vickers posting on Facebook the other day in which he asked 10 "experts" to choose between the 9 and the .45. All but Hackathorn picked the 9 (including, to my great surprise, Bill Wilson). One, or maybe two of them said, "there's no such thing as a magic bullet….." but then went on to comment on the technological advances in projectiles having made the 9 a great cartridge. Struck me as a self-negating argument, but logic doesn't play much of a role in these types of discussions. Experts like DocRocket assure us that today's trauma surgeons can't tell the difference between 9 and .45 wounds, so maybe there are "magic" bullets, or at least very efficient ones. FWIW, a close friend just finished Bob Vogel's course and reported that Bob and a few other top IDPA shooters are using 147 gr. bullets as they feel that they recoil less.
I read Vicker's post. Some choose the nine because of cost to shoot and capacity but conceded the larger wounds of the 45. One of them claimed the nine penetrates hard barriers better than the 45 again this is not my experience. I recently shot a 124 +P into sheet metal and wood as well as a 220 grain +P in 45 ACP both were JHP Hornaady bullets. The 9 was loaded by Underwood and the 45 a Hornady load. In both cases the 45 penetrated slightly deeper. Not enough to get exited about, but definitely was not out penetrated.
I have also read what Doc Rocket posted about not telling the difference in wounds between the two. I'd wager that he only worked on one patient at a time, not side by side so a proper visual comparison is made. I've seen too many animals shot with by laying side by side and there is most definitely a larger wound with the 45.
The nine definitely has the capacity advantage and less recoil, IMHO that is the only advantage.
Win Ranger T 124gr +P
RangerT's in 40SW also an excellent round
I like penetration in my SD loads and favor 124 XTP and Gold Dot in +P.
" ... Also Chuck Hawks says never use a 147 grain 9mm bullet and he is such a dip, that they must be good. ..."
I don't know who Chuck Hawes is, but the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. long used the Win. 9mm Ranger SXT 147 grains JHP in their issued Beretta 92 FS pistols. That bullet has worked just fine for them in a number of actual shootings out on the streets.
It also functions perfectly in the LASD's SEB (SWAT) H&K MP5 submachine guns.
L.W.
hawks is some blabbering idiot on the 'net.. kinda like the original savage99.
I practice with 115gr Blazer Brass FMJ. It sells for $12 box which is as low
as I can find. For personal protection I like 115 gr Winchester SXZ. It's
hollow point ammo.
I have also read what Doc Rocket posted about not telling the difference in wounds between the two. I'd wager that he only worked on one patient at a time, not side by side so a proper visual comparison is made. I've seen too many animals shot with by laying side by side and there is most definitely a larger wound with the 45.
John, I think you may be misremembering on this topic... I have written several times that when I have looked at data from large database there is no difference in outcome between 9mm and 45 ACP and when you look at the damage inside a human or animal body shot with either caliber it's impossible to tell the caliber of the bullet that did the damage.
When I look at bullet entry wounds in skin, I can usually tell approximately what caliber it was going in, and yes, .45 cal bulletholes are usually bigger than 9mm bulletholes, but not always. I've seen guys shot with up to 3 different calibers in the same OIS, and it can be tough to tell a .40 bullethole from a 9mm bullethole, or a .40 from a .45. Depends on angle of incidence, intermediate barriers, etc.
As for what 9mm bullet I prefer, I will take any of the ones on Dr. Roberts' list. I mostly carry Ranger Talon 127 gr +P+, because I have several cases of it let over from duty days. If I was starting fresh, I'd likely use either a 124-127 gr JHP or a 147 gr JHP. They will all get the job done within reason.
Running 115 GoldDots or 124 +P GoldDots, depending upon which shoots best in the 9x19 in the inventory at the time. Currently, that's the 124s.
For years I carried 115g Gold Dot handloads clocking 1252fps.
Recently I switched to Barens 115g TAC-XPD advertised at 1100fps.
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P is my carry load in my Glock 19
If you go to youtube and look up tnoutdoors:
[video:youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9[/video]
He shoots a TON of 9mm ammo into ballistic media gel using FBI protocols for same, then dissects it. Really great info source.
This guys shoots a little bit of everything into that gel, even shotgun slugs! What a 12ga 3" slug does to a 65lb gel block is something to see, lemme tell ya
jimmyp,Much like my rifles,I prefer heavier bullets.I like to have a little more bullet mass for less than perfect shooting conditions. Over-penetration may be an issue,but a"cardinal rule" is knowing what is beyond your intended target! So,it's 147's for me!! memtb
My preference in the 9mm is the Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain Flexlock load. I use the standard pressure load in a BHP.
A couple of interesting videos show gel tests comparing the
standard pressure and the
+P load. Penetration is very similar - slightly more for the slower standard pressure load - with the expansion edge going to the +P load.
If i was going to use the 147 gr it would be the Fed HST
115 gr Barnes Tac-Hp's at 1250 fps hands down, I have shot to much media, dead cattle, freezer burnt turkeys, old car doors/windshields to use much anything else, although, any carry gun I have on me will always be accompanied with a mag or two of full metal jacket flat point bullets in the heaviest for caliber bullet weight.
pappy
i shot the 115 barnes and the 124+p hst.
the hst had alot more on it than the barnes. more noise more recoil
Ammo Quest 9mm: Federal HST 124+P ammo test P9HST…:
https://youtu.be/ld5jpsaDjbA
I prefer 124gr+P Speer Gold Dots or Winchester PDX's.
I like gold dots too, both seem to open more reliably than pdx in denim tests ive seen
pappy
i shot the 115 barnes and the 124+p hst.
the hst had alot more on it than the barnes. more noise more recoil
10-4 RC, was it the factory loaded Barnes ammo?
If so, they're loaded a bit light in the shorts, Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly and Underwood level of performance is where it's at.
Speer 124 GD +P factory load
pappy
i shot the 115 barnes and the 124+p hst.
the hst had alot more on it than the barnes. more noise more recoil
10-4 RC, was it the factory loaded Barnes ammo?
If so, they're loaded a bit light in the shorts, Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly and Underwood level of performance is where it's at.
yep
Watched more than one test video from different people doing the tests. Shooting 127 +P+ ranger T's. Numerous fails to expand. Would definitely have me thinking twice about them
My Sig P226 is loaded with 124 Grain Gold dots
GD's for me. 115 or 124's.
I have reloaded and happily shot plain-jane Remington 124 Hollow points, Nosler Hollow points and Gold Dots.
Pretty much everybody seems to agree that you will never have to say "I'm sorry" if you are carrying Gold Dots.
The +P and +P+ designations have no SAAMI definition. IMHO, it is either marketing hype or asking permission to explode your gun.
Another SAAMI issue is that I believe that some junior draftsman (detailer) made a math error converting Metric to English. Story here:
http://eatonrapidsjoe.blogspot.com/2015/02/reloading-9mm-parabellum-saami-mistake.htmlThat error needlessly complicates the 9mm ammo story.
The +P and +P+ designations have no SAAMI definition. IMHO, it is either marketing hype or asking permission to explode your gun.
Wrong. The SAAMI standard pressure limit for 9mm is 35,000psi and 38,500 for +P. +P+ is anything over 38,500. If you're worried about your gun blowing up, you have junk guns. 9mm NATO standard is 36,500.
The +P and +P+ designations have no SAAMI definition. IMHO, it is either marketing hype or asking permission to explode your gun.
Wrong. The SAAMI standard pressure limit for 9mm is 35,000psi and 38,500 for +P. +P+ is anything over 38,500. If you're worried about your gun blowing up, you have junk guns. 9mm NATO standard is 36,500.
I think you are more than half right.
+P is defined by SAAMI as having a MAP of less than 38,500PSI and a mean + two standard deviations of 39,700 psi. They give no guidance regarding filtering (analog and/or digital) and sampling rate.
People quoting NATO specs get sloppy about whether they are quoting CUP or PSI. Yes, it makes a difference. Unless clearly specified it is not a meaningful number.
+P+ is not defined by SAAMI in that a range is specified. I don't care how "quality" your gun is. You are stupid to shoot it. If you need more zip, get a bigger gun.
-Joe
For 9mm I shoot whatever I can get cheap at Walmart.
Federal HST in whatever flavor you can get. I prefer the 147. Ranger T is also awesome stuff. I've got a stack of both on my shelves right now that should last a while.
For me, the performance of these new bullets has pretty much made the .40 obsolete.
Federal HST in whatever flavor you can get. I prefer the 147. Ranger T is also awesome stuff. I've got a stack of both on my shelves right now that should last a while.
For me, the performance of these new bullets has pretty much made the .40 obsolete.
+1