This round seems to have very high remarks for SD use in 9x19.

I know they make standard and +P for each, I have seen results in tests showing larger expansion for the slower heavier 147. Also it shoots only about 50 fps different in two loadings, perhaps in a shorter barrel. I hear it jumps less and recoils less than the faster 124 loadings.

1) Do many of you 9 fans load up with 147's for SD?

2) Would barrel length affect which load you use?

I've got several 9mms that I only occasionally carry but when I do I prefer the 115s run as fast as possible...1300+...CorBon +P or the Federal LE +P+.

To me no matter what bullet you stick in a 147 9mm all you have at 950+- fps is a 15 shot .38 Special +P...

Like the dopers say..speed kills.

Bob

I have shot the 147s, 124s, and 124+p.
I like the 124s. I prefer them in Glock 26,19, and 17.
Federal did their research. They shoot well in every 9mm I own.

I compromised and settled on the 124 gr. everything whether it's FMJ plinking ammo or in hollow point form for my carry ammo. I too like the HST's.

I run the 147 gr. +P in my 5" M&P and the 124 gr. +P in my Compact and Shield. Both are Federal HST.

Same for me; I don't have any love for the 147gr stuff, unless it's suppressed.

Also, if they are loaded to the same power levels, 147gr loads do not recoil less, they recoil more. Some people may perceive the slower heavier recoil differently, and think it's less, but that's subjective. The gun gamers claim 147's recoil less, but they're loading to a power factor formula, which is a little different.

Not HST's but I have carried and shot 124+p Speer gold dots for a few years. I am now taking a look at winchesters 147 bonded ranger. After attending ballistic workshops from both manufacturers, my opinion was that the expansion and penetration were close enough that it didn't matter. If anything, we saw a little more penetration from the 147. Remember, with hollow point pistol rounds, if you push them fast, they often open and start to slam on the brakes fast causing less penetration.
The 147's also feel like the shoot softer to me.

i use 147's in my G43 and G19. Guess I should worry about it.

Was watching some "ballistic test" videos on YouTube the other day and came across one done a little differently. It was one for the 115 grain CorBon +P that was clocking right around 1300 fps. In Jello the bullet always comes apart, like in multiple pieces.

In this test the tester shot first into some cloth and then an expired chicken...with water jugs as backup...and it blew a nice hole in the chicken and stopped in one of the jugs...perfectly mushroomed and weighing 114 grains I think...

My belief is that ballistic gelatin being homogeneous is not giving the same results as shooting into a human body. The chest covering over the average human is only a couple inches of fat/muscle and then a very porous organ...

Only time will tell if the "new" 147s will work...

Bob

I have 124+p and 147

I have shot both into gallon milk jugs filled with water out of a 4" barrel.
Both went through 2 jugs and stopped in the 3rd. Both made the 1st jug spilt in half. I'm not sure which is better...I figure on bone the higher weight might help more

Here are some pics of them

147 on left. 124 on right

You can see how much difference 23 grains makes on size...gold dots perform similarly but since they're bonded, they lack the jagged petals/talons the HST'S have...

here is a link to Federals testing and pictures

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

ballistic gel is a just a consistent medium to test bullet performance, it is not a replacement for human tussue

Sako75,

Were it me, I'd go big as in 147 grain.

Sako75,

Great link. I like the .40 S&W & .45 Auto HST's.

thats what the 147 HST does, it expands reliably at the lower speeds
but still penetrates...

i also think it has slightly less "Snap" compared to the 124+P

The "new" 147's have been performing really well in law enforcement shootings. The 124 gr. +P is very good for the 9mm but the 147 gr. seems to be even better.

Hmmmm, to JimmyP comment, I would not want to get hit by ANY of these Lol.

I guess the debate will continue. Likely a slight change in shot placement will have more impact on Stats. I don't know.

I would say if you have a lighter ie 124 at higher speeds, though smaller frontal area, the extra speed might enhance a wound cavity.

Yes to the comments above that "Gel" tests are one thing, but not necessarily how they will work in a live target, for lack of better words. I would think those 115 +P+, 124 +P, and some of the best 147s are all quite effective and likely more similar than different in outcomes...as is the 127 Ranger.

Those Gold Dots come up often, no doubt the 124 has a great reputation. The HST seems to slighter better it in some test, how that translates to future Outcomes stats will be interesting. Perhaps the improvement if there is minimal to marginal.

It seems the 9 has come a long way over time with bullet technology, and that is a great thing.

I do like the idea of sticking with one weight ie. 124 fmj for range work and a quality SD load in same weight for carry. Test would have to be done to see if the POI is similar in said given two loads.

Odds are most actual situations would be very close up and personal and POI shift may not be relevant.

Let's say one had to stretch a shot to 50-100 yds, would that sway your choices? I know heavies carry energy better, though their often is a "sweet spot" in a given round, as too heavy can have a loopy trajectory and also fail to expand as well.

I am wondering if say out of a 3.5 or so compact gun, if the 124 +P might offer the best balance of short and long range (say 100 yds max) effectiveness, as well as trajectory.

One can study paper ballistics, but we know that is just that...good info to ponder from all. Appreciate any and all comments. Surely this debate has been going on for many years and will continue.

147 left. 124 right

Much longer skiVing on 147

I'm in the 124 grain +P or +P+ camp, the extra speed in a smallish caliber is worth having. I'm not a 115 grain fan, can't give up penetration

There is lot to lot variation on skiving depth of HSTs as the tools wear. And tweaks to the design over time.

Here, 147's are impossible to find. 124's are sorta common but the Gold Dot's easily found.

22.50 a box of 50

http://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/9mm-147gr-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-50rds-p9hst2

124 for every day carry , 147 if using a suppressor

After the FBI team was shot up by two serious perps during the Miami Massacre of 1986, the FBI ballistics people thought it was all about penetration, penetration, and penetration...
The original 147 grain bullet load was made for suppressed subsonic use in pistols and the MP5 sub gun. Expansion wasn't an issue.

Famous battle, my takeaway, bring a rifle to a rifle fight, but no doubt penetration to vitals must be the priority before expansion. Of course we have FMJ....but...

Yes, before better ammo, the 147 was not known to both penetrate and expand well.

I would not want to be limited to a typical handgun against folks with 223s and in body armor.

The FBI wasn't going admit to poor tactics or choice of weapons

Of course a standard pressure load has less snap than a +P load. That doesn't prove anything about bullet weight, you're just comparing a hot load to a mild load.

I carry hand-loaded 147gr XTPs, at 1100 fps from my Glock 17.

Buffalo Bore has a +P+ 147 that is going faster than many standard pressure 115s and 124s...

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=120



As to the question of stretching the range to 100 yards...Buffalo Bore has charts attached to each of their loads that shows velocity, energy and drops.

This load at almost 1200 fps is still over a 1000 fps at 100 yards...the MV of most 147s...

But a 124 +P+ at 150 fps faster is only going about the same velocity at 100 yards because the lighter bullet has a lesser ballistic coefficient...

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=119


Bob

That'll do to ride the river with.

just an fyi

https://youtu.be/i67WILeK66Y

HST 147+P chrono at 1086 out of a 4" barrel glock 19

Bob, yes I was looking at fast fall off in speeds and energy with several loads on the federal website. Gives credence to the 10mm and 41 IMHO The 357 and 45 fare well with heavier bullets as does a 40, but it seems the 10 and 41 come into their own as the range stretches out.

I may try a box of 147s just to try the feeding and may just run them across a screen. The 124s seem to be preferred by alot of compact/sub-compact guns. I would want 950 or better MV in a 147 for expansion confidence...Still low vs a lighter bullet especially in a longer barrel, or better yet say a 357. For the purpose of a SD gun, more than likely any SD scenario will likely be up close it would seem, statistically speaking.

No doubt many 9s are just to get one out of a tight situation and they likely will do a decent job assuming marksmanship. Cheaper ammo might encourage more practice than say a 40 or 45.

I recon the G43 and 950 FPS would expand one of the 147's. Looks better in the shorter gun, less expansion more penetration.

147's in gel from 3 inch barrel

Good to know, thanks Jimmy. I could well be satisfied with the best of the major 3 weights, though leaning on the 124 and 147. I could see the reputation of the old hot Federal 115s and similar weight higher pressure loads, and likely they show their best in longer barrels.

Appreciate all the input folks. Likely will try a few different loads for POI, accuracy, and reliability in feeding given a few reports that certain guns do not like some ammo due to how they approach the feed ramp.

What length barrel are you trying these in? From,everything I've seen, the standard 147 should get you 980-1000 in a 4"

Ballistic gel is great for testing but how many feel the heavier 147 would fare better when bone is thrown into the mix?

3.5" - I think bone might promote more bullet upset and the 147 IMHO would be expected to punch thru heavier obstacles, based on reports a 45 does the same.....

The 124+P Gold dots seem to hold up well against bone and tissue

The better 9/147's are comparable to a 38 +P/158/LSWCHP. That round settled a LOT of hash and developed a good reputation in the process.

I would definitely take the 147.

I shot these out of a Shield this evening. Both went through 3 gallon water jugs. It was too dark to chronograph but I like what I'm seeing.

i have shot the HST 124+P and the 147 out of a g19 from approx 5 feet and both were stopped in the 3rd jug....did yours go through the 3rd?

gold dots are great, but the bonded bullet doesnt allow for sharp, jagged petals...The HST mushrooms just as reliably as the gold dot but I like the sharp "talons" FWIW

my feeling is they will create more trauma in soft tissue but i cant prove it

HST on left, GOld dot on right

Yes, both of them went through all 3 jugs at 7 yards. I really need to chronograph these and see how fast the short barrel throws them. All the tests I've seen has stopped them in the 3rd jug, really surprised me that they both went through. Surprised me even more that we found them just a foot or so away behind the 3rd jug.

Widest expansion on the HST was .667 and the sharp petals do look mean.

Lower velocity from his shorter barrel probably resulted in a little more penetration. That's a pretty repeatable phenomenon that I've seen in a bunch of my own testing.

Re. the sharp petals above - personally I think that's a bit overrated. Water jug or other media testing is useful, but remember that neither of those bullets will look that clean and pretty when fired into meat and bone.

I researched this a week or so ago, and was surprised to find that the +P 147 grain HST actually had poorer performance than the standard pressure.

When they were "Black Talon" the petals were even more fearsome in appearance, and likely caused even more trauma, but the liberals thought that we shouldn't be able to do that much damage on criminals, so they outlawed them. Or, perhaps just intimidated the manufacturer to stop making them.

Just a point of clarification, the HST is the new Federal bullet and never was a Black Talon. Black Talon was a Winchester bullet and the currently available PC version is called the Ranger SXT.

Thanks for the clarification. Are the Ranger SXTs available for civilian sale?

Black Talon's didn't really do any more damage than a conventional HP, they just looked wicked. In the famous shooting that caused Winchester to pull them from the shelves, the trauma surgeon noted how wicked the bullet looked, but said there was really nothing different about the wound channel.

A little hard to believe.

the Ranger SXT's look wicked when they expand, unfotunately they do rather poorly through denim from what ive seen, HST and GOld DOts much more reliable in the dept. one would think as the bullet is spinning, those petals would act like saws but maybe they dont add any appreciable trauma

RANGER EXPANDED:

FWIW, I'd rather get hit by an FMJ, than those above

Better yet, not hit at all

Re: the +P being less in the 147 HST test, I fathom "It all depends" - on bbl length/velocity on impact.

Other factors like shot to shot recovery time, and flash at night, etc. might be considered as well. I would guess all HST's are bad news if placed in the vitals.

Now if you add a barrier, car glass/door and/or clothing, then you start complicating the ammo selection process, as some do better thru obstacles enroute to flesh, and yes gel tests are different, though a consistent medium to do testing.

I shot both the Gold Dots and HST's at dark and neither provided any noticeable flash.

The Ranger SXT's are available to civilians and is what I was carrying, key word "was".

So now you carry HST or Gold Dots? 3.1" Shield?

HST's, Shield.

this thread made me again peruse the 47th lyman book on cast bullets in the throne room this morning, and compare the 147grain 9mm against the 158grain 38special. Awful similar in weight and velocity leading one to say all the 9mm offers is a hicap 38special in that bullet weight. Now i was fooling with some 155grain gas checked Lyman 358156keith style bullets a couple of months ago, can be loaded in both 38special and 357magnum. I was running in 357magnum but not at the higher velocities, but around 1000fps. That bullet was cracking river rock for those familar with it, penetration would have to be pretty good, my unscientic approach was the "thunk" when they hit.
I have the 170 mould too, and i think they would settle a lot of "hash" too. Where the 9mm loaded in a similar fashion comes to mind is current events such as in north carolina where there is a distinct atvantage in having more than six rounds. Since i have a springfied XD, the mag capacity is similar to that of a lot of 9mm's. I have a bag of 45 185grain jhp's, either winchester or remington, that i have had sitting around for years. I know that i can run them at around 1000fps. I need to load some. Similar velocities to that of that 9mm 147grain, heavier yet bullet, and similar mag capacity in the XD.
and they dont HAVE to expand to get similar results to the 9mm, but if they do expand, game over.

That's exactly why I like the 40 S&W, Ron. It has lots of good attributes of many top drawer pistol cartridges, with enough overlap to give me peace of mind.

http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2009/06/blog-post.html

Keep in mind few load manuals, and definitely not Lyman's, have +P load data, so you're comparing to relatively mild 9mm loads. +P or even +P+ in a modern pistol can be a significant step up from that.

For example, the little subcompact G26 can push 147gr hard cast at 1100 fps safely. Compare that to what a similar sized 38 can do.

100% in agreement! I just started reloading the .40 in 2013 and it's become my favorite pistol cartridge to reload. Really enjoyed your blog.

My buddy chronograph'd his Shield tonight.

147 +p HST 3" barrel 947 fps

124 +p GD's 3" barrel 1133 fps.

Still hard to beat the GD's.

Way back when I would plink with a 9mm Hi-Point carbine, the various 147grain loads also grouped better at 100 yards than lighter bullets. Up to 50 yards there weren't a whole lot of difference, beyond that 115gr hollowpoints especially wouldn't group worth a darn.

IIRC, the 147 gr was originally developed for suppressed weapons, especially for the precision work of taking out sentries and such. I often wondered if they settled on that longer bullet on partly on account of inherent accuracy.

Birdwatcher

Hard for me to use anything but the 124 gr +P Speer Golddots. They are impressive on feral hogs at the Ranch.
I've also had great results with the Remington Golden Sabre +P loading on hogs, and one old cow I had to put down.

My new Kimber Micro 9 is loaded with the 124 gr +P Speer Golddots right now.

SPEER GOLD DOT RESULTS
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/GoldDotPoster.pdf


HST RESULTS
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/HSTInsertPoster.pdf