Are they going to take the LE community by storm in the next 5-10 years?

They're a plug-n-play as far as contracts are concerned and optics and suppressors aren't going to get less popular.




Clark

Don't know, but, fwiw, Michigan State Police recently switched from SIG to Glock.

Look to the future....




Dave

SIG already did this in the US market with their hammer fired pistols. The days of US LE hammer fired pistols are just about done. A striker fired 9mm is the current future, once the old guns have reached service life. In that arena, Glock owns this in spades on a world wide stage. Making matters worse for others, such as S&W, depending on the US region, some of their US reps have abysmal track records in the LE community, whereas Glock holds the gold standard, with the ability to nearly give the guns away for free. SIG is late in this game, and everything is just too new and unproven to compete, regardless the deal.

Where you see S&W, they likely have a good rep. Otherwise, you are going to see Glock run the table.

Yes. I understand Glock's stronghold on the current market.



Dave

Sigs priced themselves out of the LE Markit years ago. Their new polymer line of handguns are to little too late.

The main reason that Glock dominates nowadays, besides for their Uber reliability, is their pricing and LE discounts. S&W came out with the M&P line to compete with GLOCK. Another example of too little too late.

But Glock can't sell package deals that include pistols, cans, optics, and M4's.

Sig can.





Dave

Okay, but their past treated me pretty well. Several years ago, Michigan State Police issued P226 DA/SA in .40 S&W. An accidental discharge caused them to switch to the P226 in double action only. Troopers could buy the old ones for $500. Local post scored one for me. It had just been issued and the trooper put about 50 rounds through it. Night sights, rail, 6 magazines and case for $500. Only problem with it is it has MSP logo on the slide. When I was a LEO, I was a sheriff's deputy. For the price I can overlook the logo. They only had those for several years and switched to the Glock.

Are the guns and magazines cheaper than comparable Glocks? Do they weigh less than the comparable Glocks? Are they slimmer than comparable Glocks? Are they more accurate than comparable Glocks? Are they more reliable than comparable Glocks? How much will grip module and slide kits cost? Will Sig practically give them away to police departments?

I think the modularity is a neat concept, and certainly simplifies manufacturing and manufacturer supply chain. For a governmental end user, whether this matters may hinge on the cost of the grip modules and slide kits. Sig isn’t really noted for being the cheapest price point for anything (including magazines). As a mere consumer, changing out everything but the trigger group is nothing that would interest me unless we become Europe and you can only have one gun or the price is something like $200. If it costs $450 and a new gun is $597, why bother.

Good Point! S&W could, though. Maybe Gaston Glock will buy out Colt. They are always teetering on the brink of Bankruptcy.

Only one major LE Agency in TX still carries Sigs. TX DPS / Highway Patrol carries Sigs in the 357 Sig caliber. It has worked very well for them over the last 20 years.

We just upgraded our 15 year old SA/DA 226's with the new SA/DA 226. Been serving our folks well all this time, deputies were able to buy their original issue gun, 4 extra mags and holster for $300.00 and most did.

my last year on we were authorized to purchase and carry for duty the Sig 226.

I'd never voluntarily go back to a Glock and I like Glocks

I think as the 320 picks up steam it's going to be a serious thorn in Glocks side.

No.

Next question?

I am eyeballing a SIG can for a 1911.

I'll bet they do.




Dave

I doubt it. I bought one last summer and shot it quite a bit. I just didn't like the high bore axis. Sold it at a loss for this reason. Holding on target shot to shot is just so much easier with a Glock. That's going to be the P320's downfall, I think.

I'm not comparing Glocks to Sigs.

Anybody that can shoot wouldn't give a fugk which they were given.

I'm talking about ONE company being able to provide an entire range of products in the bid.




Dave

While it's true that such a person would be able to effectively deploy both, it's not likely that he wouldn't care which, if given a choice. Low bore axis is a huge advantage. Recoil just feels better, and less focus on perfect form is required for the same level of accuracy in quick repeat shots.

Ed, check out the Rugged Obsidian, also. Got this tip from Ray Hansohn, who I have bought my last 3 suppressors from. PS- he's a 1911 guy.

His company is called Hansohn Brothers, in VA. They've got a decent website.

It looks like a nice design.
I like that modular fire control group.
With a 34 year head start Glock is entrenched.
No one is going to roll them, but they can be pecked at.
The new CZ striker-fired will be interesting to watch.
They even made it so it will fit into a G19 holster.

I say no.

Departments care about these three things in this order:
1. Cost of weapon
2. Cost of ammo
3. Cost of accessories (holsters, magazines, tactical lights, etc)

It's all about the budget.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=16978


http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2016/05/are-pistol-optics-ready-for-duty.aspx

Nothing will replace the Glock as the Premiere Law Enforcement Weapon if for no other reason cost per weapon.

You guys realize the idea that Glock is carried by the overwhelming majority of LE officers comes from Glock, right?



Dave

Certainly the plurality.

Glock likes to reference departments like NYPD and CPD but the reality is the Glock is only one of the pistols those cops can choose from. And neither department buys them. The individual cops buy them.




Dave

Just one example, but my nephew is on the Phoenix PD. Only Glocks are issued, and they can't pick anything else even if they buy it. I believe he even told me he has to choose Glock for an off duty gun, but I will have to verify that last point.

Virtually all the cops in my area carry Glock. Most are department issue (cost per unit factor/positive reputation) and some carry Glock by personal choice. In departments that allow individual choice there are a very small percentage of M&P and XD pistols seen. The only department that doesn't issue a G22 around here is the town I live in city PD, and these officers are issued the Sig P220 .45 ACP.

All new NYPD recruits as of this year will be issued Glock 17's. They no longer will have the option of Glock, Sig or Smith & Wesson. The new Glock will cost them $500. Offices already on the job can switch to the Glock 17 but it will cost them $500, which they are a little ticked off about. The NYPD feels that the Glock 17 will allow their police offices to shoot more accurately:) My brothers (Retired New York City detective) friend is a instructor at Rodmans's Neck, That comes from him. I believe it is Hillsborough New Jersey police department just switched to the Sig 320, don't know what they were issued prior. Talking to one of their police offices he told me that they are very happy with them.

Thanks Bam BAm. Didn't know they changed policy.


Dave

There are many departments that are more restrictive but I don't think Phoenix would even make the Top 10 in size.



Dave

I come from a place that issues the Glock 17. It's hard to beat the logistics of issuing glocks. The company does a good job of taking care of you, parts are everywhere, armorer schools are plentiful, and they run. That being said, the new Sig 320 is legit. Sig now is a far cry from Sig 10 years ago. They have made huge strides to improve product and offer other quality items other than firearms. They will grab some of Glocks market, by it may be awhile before it is significant.

High bore axis killed the P320 for me, when compared to a Glock. You can really feel the difference. You have to wonder why they would make it that way when a striker fired mechanism doesn't require it, lacking a hammer which is what usually gets in the way of designing a lower bore axis.

The UK JTT Force, I think that's what they call them, we're just recently issued the Sig MCX with 12.5 inch barrels and Sig optics. Pennsylvania State trooper's went from Glock to Sig 227. That was about three years ago, I can find out if they still are issued them. Sig can supply law-enforcement with long arms and side arms all from one source. MCX,MPX,320,not a bad package.

psp has had the 227 for 2 years now.


the troopers wanted sigs long before they got Glocks.

originally when PSP went searching for a replacement for their Beretta Sig offered to provide each sworn officer with a back up gun at no charge providing the agency would allow Sig to use their likenesses and patch in advertisements. psp said no. and sig withdrew completely. Psp then selected Glock 37s and then switched to Glock 21s. after having some frame problems with the 21s they went back to sig and ultimately selected the P227

Recheck that Dave, NYPD supplies and issues their officers sidearms. The S.O. in many FL counties, including ours do as well. Sig P226 is very popular here with many Depts.

I remember the bad old days when we bought our sidearms AND leather.

I quoted that the New York City Police Department charges recruits for their side arms. I do not know why I put that in my comment,they do not pay for them they are issued. If any police officer already on the job wanted one they have to purchase it themselves for 500 bucks. Sorry for the confusion.

DeFlave: No.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

That's a double-edged sword. Some bureaucracies get it right and some are guided by the unsubstantiable, anecdotal prejudices of the “experts” who select stuff. Sometimes, it’s better to eat the cost for more functional gear. Of course, being forced to pay for pre-selected bad stuff really sucks.

Nephew got back to me. His department is a strictly Glock department, on or off duty. Only exception is while hunting or otherwise sport shooting.

His department is the sixth largest in the country, i.e., Phoenix PD.

If depts want one stop shopping, Glock can easily contract with 1 of dozens of AR manufacturers. Or, make their own. Uppers and lowers are mostly contracted out, the rest can also be outsourced. Some assembly required. After all this is a gun people assemble in the basement, and glock has a little experience building guns.

S&W could also provide both carbines and handguns. In fact I'm told that the S&W M&P AR is the most common carbine riding with cops.

They may now but I'm pretty sure they were personally owned firearms for a long time.




Dave

Could.

But they're not.





Dave

Told by who? The sixth largest law enforcement agency/department in the country?




Clark

I think you're asking me who told me that Phoenix PD is the sixth largest in the country. My nephew did. Was he wrong?

Looks like he was correct? Link

Oh, wait, you're asking me who told me that M&P carbines are the most common in squad cars. It was the manager of a law enforcement supply in the town where I live. Was he wrong? He could have meant Florida. Or even this county. I don't know.

PS: Nephew says Phoenix PD uses Colt ARs.

In the sense of an actual city police department they may still rank 6th. But I was referring to all departments/agencies to include SO's and federal.




Dave

I don't know that he was wrong but I sure as hell wouldn't say that he's right.



Dave

Appreciated.

Not that I care but your link says your wrong! Check your addition, that link says they are #7 for Cities only. Add in all leo entities (state, county, city etc) and they don't even make the top 20

You're right. I had assumed it was in order top to bottom.

sig 320's rock!! but the future LE market needs to pay attention to canik tp 9 and the new stuff from them