New Revolver Cartridge idea.......

Not nearly enough revolver cartridges out there to completely fill all the voids and niches. So I'm doing my part to complete the library. Made a comment on another thread about a 10mm Rimmed, not really seriously. But the more I think about it there's a good dang gap that needs filling and I have just the solution. The 10mm AutoRim. Should be able to fit 6 in an L-frame cylinder and possibly stretch the case just a little bit beyond the standard 10mm. 5" barrel should get 180 to 200 gr bullets up to similar speed as .357 158 gr, maybe more. Nice medium weight revolver, good ballistics, and you don't have to go up to the N-frame bulk to do it. Another good name would be the .400 S&W. I like it. I'd buy one.

Have you tried a 41?

Nope. Too close to a .44 package in weight and bulk for what I'm suggesting.

I'm on board with the rimmed 10mm idea.

.41 is too close to a .44. A .39 cal would be "perfect" but with so many .40 bullet options, I think something like a .401 powermag would be ... interesting.

This rimmed 10mm should not be trying to be a .41 or .44 magnum, it should push a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps from a 4" barreled revolver. I've long said that's my formula for perfect deer medicine, a .40 cal, 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. More isn't better, more is just ... more.

I have a Ruger Buckeye Special .38-40/10mm ... it's fun to shoot, more snot than a .357 but a lot less buck 'n' roar than the .41 and .44. A rimmed 10 would work .. whether it'd sell enough to survive ... not so sure about that.

10mmR would be cool. I love the 45 auto rim.
I always wanted a 50 Special. I know some custom revolvers have been made in it. Not looking for magnum performance but something cool to me about those 1/2" holes in a target. One of the reasons I like my 50/70 Trapdoor.

Would need to make sure it totally avoided fitting the 41 Colt in some way...

The definition of a RCH...

RCH?

200 gr at 1200fps, sure sounds like a 41 special.

Guys build them on the Single Six, thinking an L frame would be a piece of cake.

Sounds kind of like a hot .38-40

Originally Posted by shootem

Not nearly enough revolver cartridges out there to completely fill all the voids and niches. So I'm doing my part to complete the library. Made a comment on another thread about a 10mm Rimmed, not really seriously. But the more I think about it there's a good dang gap that needs filling and I have just the solution. The 10mm AutoRim. Should be able to fit 6 in an L-frame cylinder and possibly stretch the case just a little bit beyond the standard 10mm. 5" barrel should get 180 to 200 gr bullets up to similar speed as .357 158 gr, maybe more. Nice medium weight revolver, good ballistics, and you don't have to go up to the N-frame bulk to do it. Another good name would be the .400 S&W. I like it. I'd buy one.

Colt made a very small batch of .41 Mag Pythons, but abandoned the idea quickly. Always thought a .41 Python would be just theawwfultimate DA revolver!! I'd trade a LOT of my current guns for such a revolver.

Originally Posted by kingston

RCH?

Me thinks he's referencing splitting hairs, in this case a Red C**t Hair, the tiniest unit of measurement known to engineering science.

And for the OP, a GP100 in 41 Special does 220-230 gr lead at 1200.

.41 Special.

Dave

...simple solution from a LONG time ago.... .401 Herters Power Mag... Would have been the perfect round for the 60s vintage Colt Python/Trooper and todays L-Frame Smiths and GP100...

http://www.gunblast.com/Fryxell_Herters401.htm

make the gun also take 40 S&W and 10mm in moon clips and you can sign me up for a couple....

.375 Winchester cut back would be even better. But it's been done. No one liked it.

Originally Posted by Dan_Chamberlain

.375 Winchester cut back would be even better. But it's been done. No one liked it.

You mean a shorter version of the .375 Maximum?

Originally Posted by sdgunslinger

make the gun also take 40 S&W and 10mm in moon clips and you can sign me up for a couple....

It would be easy enough...both TK Custom and Pinnacle convert .357 DA revolvers to take 9mm and .38 Super via moon clips so if there was a Smith or Ruger chambered in .401 it could be done.

Originally Posted by shootem

Not nearly enough revolver cartridges out there to completely fill all the voids and niches.

Bullshit.

Carry on...

I'll also suggest the Herter's .401 Powermag has "been there, done that". I am working up loads for mine now using 180 gr hard cast to about 1200 fps, but it has been loaded "hotter". Also, a .357 Herter's cylinder can be re-chambered to 10mm, or a .401 to .38-40, both used in a .401 frame, for a "switch cylinder" handgun.

Mike

Taurus makes a .40 in their L sized frame.

Dave

Originally Posted by nick

10mmR would be cool. I love the 45 auto rim.
I always wanted a 50 Special. I know some custom revolvers have been made in it. Not looking for magnum performance but something cool to me about those 1/2" holes in a target. One of the reasons I like my 50/70 Trapdoor.

Yup, 50 auto rim in a 5 shot case hardened single action revolver with adjustable sights and a 5.5" octagonal barrel with black micarta grips.

Originally Posted by T_O_M

I'm on board with the rimmed 10mm idea.

.41 is too close to a .44. A .39 cal would be "perfect" but with so many .40 bullet options, I think something like a .401 powermag would be ... interesting.

This rimmed 10mm should not be trying to be a .41 or .44 magnum, it should push a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps from a 4" barreled revolver. I've long said that's my formula for perfect deer medicine, a .40 cal, 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. More isn't better, more is just ... more.

I have a Ruger Buckeye Special .38-40/10mm ... it's fun to shoot, more snot than a .357 but a lot less buck 'n' roar than the .41 and .44. A rimmed 10 would work .. whether it'd sell enough to survive ... not so sure about that.

i have a buckeye too. loaded with 200gr 10mm, and that long barrel, it pushes them out there pretty fast.
i like the 38wcf, and in a modern steel gun it can sure go faster than the old turn of the century guns.
having said that, i have a bisley turn of the century, it was used to kill a grizzley, which it did, and it did serve to wax a guy back in the 30's, worked for that role too.
there is a lot of stuff out there already in 200 grain, 1000 to 1200fps. Incuding 357 magnum.
lets see .400, .410, .429 i don't see a lot of difference there.
there is some stuff on the net about a guy running 38wcf up into those velocity ranges, but he ain't doing it with a gun made in 1900.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

200 gr at 1200fps, sure sounds like a 41 special.

Guys build them on the Single Six, thinking an L frame would be a piece of cake.

i finally got around to loading, and shooting some 41special loads, with universal and titegroup, in dedicated starline 41special brass.
fired them out of some 3inch smiths and a taurus. Its a real good combination.
all a .40s&w is, 10mm is, is the 38wcf pushed in a more efficient casing that was not originally like black powder.
i think they are to a large degree overlaping dependent on the power/velocity one is trying to obtain.
The 10mm has been limited by a lot of the factory ammo really being about the same as 40s&w. you load it up to the upper levels of what the old norma loads were, its in the territory of where i fire a lot of 41 at.

Originally Posted by HawkI

Would need to make sure it totally avoided fitting the 41 Colt in some way...

I have a 41 colt that was made back in the 1890's, and actually have factory period ammo for it. But have never shot it. One of the issues they had at the time was several different diameter bullets all labeled 41colt. I bought at auction a bag of loose ammo all labeled 41colt, found out the different when not all would fit the cylinder of the gun.
it used a hollow base bullet that would swell to fit the barrel too.
They supposedly had a flat spring in them that if it breaks today it is almost impossible to replace. which is the reason i haven't shot mine. Nice design on the gun tho.

How 'bout a .25 revolver cartridge based on a shortened, expanded .22 Hornet case? Or has that been done, too?

Originally Posted by sdgunslinger

make the gun also take 40 S&W and 10mm in moon clips and you can sign me up for a couple....

That's one of the strong points of the round. As in the .45 AutoRim the 10mmR would also shoot the rimless rounds with clips, even the .40S&W if you don't mind a carbon ring in the chamber. As far as doing a .41 Special instead I think that's a great idea. Knock it out. But another strong point for the 10R is bullets. For those who like variety there's about every design, material, and usable weight imaginable at every price point. And going back to brass availability, if you absolutely must be able to shoot and there's nothing else available there's more .40S&W fired brass out there than cockroaches in New York. A collaborative effort between S&W and Hornady or Federal to introduce the .400 S&W in a 4, 5, or 6" medium frame with ammo waiting to be bought would work. Later package it in a 5 shot small frame 3" and feel the love.

Originally Posted by Savuti

Originally Posted by kingston

RCH?

Me thinks he's referencing splitting hairs, in this case a Red C**t Hair, the tiniest unit of measurement known to engineering science.

And for the OP, a GP100 in 41 Special does 220-230 gr lead at 1200.

Another vote for the .41Spl, and the GP100 is the perfect platform.

If the that doesn't appeal to the OP, how about a .38-40 loaded a little stiffer?

Hmmm. Special. Thinking 1400 or so w a 170? Not a bad PD gun and 220's on tap. I can't see anything a 40 can do that a 41 slug won't. Same weight and speed. JS. Not knocking the 40 cal. Just thinking it would be awful simple to do a 41 Sp and no 🌙 clips. From a Ballistics and practicality viewpoint....I did pass years ago mom a 5" 610. Nice package but it or the 4" in a 41 sure would be Sweet IMHO. Built the OLD S&W way...

FWIW, personally I like the 40...in 10mm form, in an autoloader. It gives the extra punch for decent deer and hog hunting performance.

GP100 in 41 spec.....very intriguing.

Any suggestions as to a 'smith to do the work, and estimated cost?

An L Frame makes a dandy 41 Special,

Ronnie

That is puuurteee.

Thanks,
The Ruger old model single six also makes a nice 41 special, but it's a 5 shot,

Ronnie

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

GP100 in 41 spec.....very intriguing.

Any suggestions as to a 'smith to do the work, and estimated cost?

Between the purchase of the gun, shipping and the work...pushing $15-1800....

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/gp100.html

I've thought about it but with having the stainless and Ti Trackers just could not justify it...

Bob

Ronnie...that is a beautify S-S...who did the work....

What do you shoot for loads?
Bob

The 10mm is a fine, versatile cartridge right in the middle of the handgun power spectrum. An AR version for revolvers is an excellent idea and Starline might even be talked into a producing a limited run of it.

A 10mm field revolver should be chambered in 10mm Magnum and if it's a DA, the cylinder rebated for moon clips so .40 standard 10mm loads can be used. A single action 10mm Mag, with a spare 40 S&W cylinder, would handle everything from mice to moose if a fella reloaded for it.

[Linked Image]

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mag.htm

http://shop.reedsammo.com/10mm-Magnum-200g-Hornady-XTP-1620FPS-10MMMAG200X.htm

Originally Posted by RJM

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

GP100 in 41 spec.....very intriguing.

Any suggestions as to a 'smith to do the work, and estimated cost?

Between the purchase of the gun, shipping and the work...pushing $15-1800....

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/gp100.html

I've thought about it but with having the stainless and Ti Trackers just could not justify it...

Bob

It helps when you get the base gun for $299 as a security company trade in.
$625 for the stainless conversion. I had Dave trim down the full under lug, but don't recall what he charged for that.

Had the 41 Colt not been around, its pretty likely that the 41 Mag would have been a straight up 40 caliber. Elmer stated that as one reason the 41 was a 41.
He also didnt care that the original Blackhawk and Colt Officer frame guns werent big enough to handle it as a six shooter. He was an N frame man.

It would have also fit more guns at the time with the margin of safety the manufacturers would have liked.

Thats the other issue: half of us want a lighter, packable gun with decent power and a 40 frontal area. Others want a full on hunting canon.

The shrinking revolver market is getting better with more specialized guns, not cartridges.

I agree Hawk and it nearly came to pass several times. Excerpted from Lee Martin's excellent article on the 400 Colt Magnum.
http://www.singleactions.com/400Colt.pdf

Quote

Modern .40 caliber revolver rounds evolved in the 1920’s when Pop Eimer developed his .401 wildcat. Essentially, the .401 Eimer was a Winchester Self-Load case that was trimmed back to 1.21” and shot in altered Colt single actions. Its performance was impressive with 200 grain bullets topping out around 1,200 fps when placed over 2400 powder. Gordon Boser further developed the round in the 1940’s and in time a few Colt double-actions were converted to .401.

Herters Incorporated unveiled its .40 caliber magnum in 1961, and based it on a very strong Sauer & Sohn single-action. It was called the .401 Powermag and was a good performer with bullets ranging from 160 to 200 grains. It sold, but was never distributed in a way that promoted a national following. Remington and Smith & Wesson followed suit in 1964 with the .41 Magnum, which was loaded at two power thresholds.

What many don’t realize though, is that a third middle-bore magnum almost came to be…..namely, the .400 Colt Magnum. There isn’t a lot of history on the cartridge, other than the fact that it was devised in the early 1960’s. As I understand it, Bob Roy of Colt originally
modified .30-30 cases to create the .400 Magnum, and Winchester latter provided loaded prototypes. I was fortunate enough to obtain two of these and found the headstamps to read “W-W, 400”. Both are issued with what appears to be the same 200 grain soft nose bullets that Winchester used in the .38-40. Also, one of the cases is grooved, while the other is not. In terms of its dimensions, the .400 is quite similar to both the the .401 Powermag and .41 Remington Mag as illustrated below:

.400 Colt .401 Herter .41 Magnum
Case Length 1.275” 1.285” 1.290”
Web Diameter 0.420” 0.426” 0.434”
Case Mouth 0.417” 0.425” 0.434”
Rim Diameter 0.463” 0.483” 0.492”

Alan Harton did the work. The only loads I've shot through it have been 215 SWC with 6.5 grains of unique. I've got a lightweight MP mold that cast around 170 that I want to try in it, also a HBWC mold from MP that I think would be dandy.
Ronnie

Andy Horvath, lil' Ruger in 41 Special,

Ronnie

And a Ruger GP100 by Dave Clements in 10MM is a handy little package.

Ronnie

Originally Posted by RJM

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

GP100 in 41 spec.....very intriguing.

Any suggestions as to a 'smith to do the work, and estimated cost?

Between the purchase of the gun, shipping and the work...pushing $15-1800....

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/gp100.html

I've thought about it but with having the stainless and Ti Trackers just could not justify it...

Bob

Thanks Bob.

Dave...You are welcome... A good clean GP-100 around here is in the $5-600 range... Add shipping and the conversion fee and looks like one could get one for less than $1500...

Ronnie...those are some beautiful guns... I also have several of the MP molds. Just got done with my last casting session for the season and made about a thousand of the HBWC. My first try with that mold was a disaster...just could not get them to come out right. This time smooth as silk. The little 180 with the HP options is now my go-to bullet for the Freedom Arms 97.

Sarge...looks like that .400 colt would be the one as it is already the same diameter as the 10mm vs. the .401 Herters that is a little too large...

Maybe if Colt ever brings back a full size revolver again they will chamber it for a 400/10mm...

Bob

Originally Posted by SargeMO

The 10mm is a fine, versatile cartridge right in the middle of the handgun power spectrum. An AR version for revolvers is an excellent idea and Starline might even be talked into a producing a limited run of it.

A 10mm field revolver should be chambered in 10mm Magnum and if it's a DA, the cylinder rebated for moon clips so .40 standard 10mm loads can be used. A single action 10mm Mag, with a spare 40 S&W cylinder, would handle everything from mice to moose if a fella reloaded for it.

[Linked Image]

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mag.htm

http://shop.reedsammo.com/10mm-Magnum-200g-Hornady-XTP-1620FPS-10MMMAG200X.htm

Wasn't aware of the 10 mag but that case looks to be a perfect pattern for a 10AR as you say. Reading Starlines specs for the case length it's +\- that of a .357. And that GP in 10mm is veddy veddy nice. Should be able to juggle the magnum case length to make auto rim COAL fit a standard .357 cylinder. What kind of pressure comes with a 200gr bullet at 1200fps from the mag? Got a Trooper Mk lll that could be modified if the cylinder walls could handle it. But on your idea for an extra .40 cylinder, I just saw a used Blackhawk .357 on GB with an extra cylinder in 9mm. DONOR !! I'm liking this a lot.