I'm kinda new to handguns, having lived in Md, where you essentially can't have one...anyway, in their infinite wisdom, the Game Commission has decided the pistol range at sgl 109, will now be a 25 yard only range. Just wanted some educated opinions, on the wisdom of that. I've been going there regularly for the last couple of years, and the VAST majority of patrons shoot short barreled, self defense pistols, usually at around 10 yards. I'm not a bad pistol shot, but my smallest 9mm, a Kimber Micro 9, is good for about a 6" group at 25. The larger handguns do a good bit better. From what I've seen, most guys run about 6" at 10 yards. They'd have a very hard time running any kind of decent group at 25. A beginning shooter would be lost. It's too far. I think a 25 yd minimum would render the range unusable, for most that use it now. I'm gonna try to talk them into a shorter range, but want to know if you guys think I am wrong, in my assessment. The issue is the shooting bench is at 25, and they want all shooters at a common firing line. I get that. Moving the targets closer apparently would cause ricochet to be a concern, as they may miss the berm. I'm thinking moving the line to 12 yards would be a good compromise. There is a 25 yard target available at the adjacent rifle range. Thanks guys.

I like to shoot at claybirds at 50 and 100 yards.
10 yards has it's purposes, just not for me.

Sorry.

25 is kind of useless. It's ok "long range" for defense purposes, or short range for
Initial sight in on a hunting gun. As the only range? A compromise that suits nobody.

Thanks. Sorta what I thought, too. It IS the only designated pistol range. The rifle range is about a 1 minute walk away, and has target backers at 25, 50, and 100. You CAN shoot handguns there, as well. I'm thinking if you have a new shooter trying to hit something at 25 yards with a short range, defense type handgun, they will be very frustrated. Some people have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn at 25. No birdshot at this range. Single projectiles only.

I hope the government helps you out.

Hahaha! Yeah. They don't give a [bleep]. Figured I'd rant a bit, and then shoot at 25 yards. I really don't have a huge problem with that, but it should be interesting to see what happens. Virtually NOBODY shoots at 25. They aren't issuing citations at this time, but they will, eventually. Bottom line is they want everyone at the same firing line. In true government fashion, they put it at an unusable distance. Safe as can be. Nobody will use it.

Ever thought about making portable stands that have the height for the target backer at a level to reduce the possibility of ricochet.
You actually should feel lucky as most if not all WMA’s and state owned target ranges have been shut down here due to a variety of reasons.
And don’t sell short defensive weapons or the 25 yd. mark short lots can be learned. My Glock sucks at 25 but have a 1911 4” and a 4” revolver that do very well at that range. And yes I carry both.

Yeah, I suggested the target backers, but those are already unsat. My Springfield Armory. 45 XDM, is entirely capable at that distance, and the S&W 3913, is no slouch either. The Kimber Micro 9 is capable, but more difficult to shoot real accurately at that range due to its size. For me, anyway. From what I've seen, a lot of folks don't have much chance at success. Beginners really dont.

I like backstops at 12 and 25 myself.

I thought 12 as well, since 25 is available at the other range.

Me too, but fortunately I am able to go on days where I pretty much have the range to myself. Put up 4” steel plates at 7, 12, 15 and 20 then use the 25 backer as a stop shot. Practice variable target distance transitions with 4 different 22’s. Most defensive centerfires are done from the draw @ 5 ft. 7, 15, 20 yards by walking up to the backer and moving back using standard NRA target

If the range is a per NRA standards with proper berms, soil, and grading, ricochets should not be a problem with close targets - well anymore so than if the targets are placed at the 25 yard line. The targets at any range should never be higher than eye level and should always be designed so the barrel is angled down slightly when firing - whether standing or sitting. People miss the targets ALL THE TIME regardless of the distance. Placing targets only at 25 yards will not stop people from overshooting the berm or jerking the gun down (anticipating recoil) and shooting the dirt in front of the targets/berm. There is also a "no blue sky" option where a piece of steel is supported over the firing line at such a height and angle that even a negligent discharge (pointed downrange) would have trouble leaving the range. The berm location does not need to be changed; just sounds like they need someone who understands range design.

Thanks. I really appreciate all the responses. Trying to educate myself as much as possible, to offer criticism AND solutions!

Damn you are funny.

This is the PAGC, they will tell you what's right and how it is.
If you PROVE them wrong, you will still be the one who's wrong.


And, if their officers or the PSP shoot there,
it will be at distances of THEIR choosing. Not the REQUIRED distance.
PSP used to shoot on our local Gamelands, big holes shot into the bank at
qualifying time. 38, 9mm, 40 brass everywhere. (I got a couple gallon )

Right behind the signs warning that it was not a shooting range, and illegal to
target shoot there.

Yeah, I realize that. I also realize they don't know their azz from a hole in the ground, and are content with that. I will have a say, though. Even if it's [bleep]. 20 years in the Navy taught me that the boss may not be right, but we have to do it the stupid way.

Best way I found to deal with this is to not shoot at these dumbass game ranges. I'm lucky enough to be able to shoot at my home, but if not I would just hit one of the many local owned gun range. Screw the pagc

Probably gonna end up at a gun club . That said, I sure don't mind shooting at 25. The woman won't hit diddly squat at that range, with her M&P 22 compact. She would be so frustrated, we might as well not go. Challenging for me, but doable. I grew up shooting on our own property, which is all gone now. Don't ever take that for granted!

I guess they want to discourage self-defense training with handguns. Discourage all but handgun hunters.

That said, I usually start at 25 yards (off-hand, pie-plate-sized, groups are pretty easy with my Glocks at that range). Then I move the targets closer for more realistic self-defense type scenarios.

Can you set-up plates or poppers short of the 25-yard line/berm?

Nope. Suggested that too. Going out today to see how 25 yd goes. I can hit stuff, but I am not proud of my "groups"! Mostly gotta figure out how to pass the info on to the woman, who is a lousy pistol shot, and gets frustrated easily. I have to get better so I can help HER get better. I'll assume that the government ain't gonna change anything. Still gonna try, though.

We're talking about 9" groups of 10 shots with the 9mm Kimber Micro 9. About 3" or a bit better, with the Buckmark. Not terrible at 25, not great. Experimented a bit with grip and finger position on the trigger. Anyway, 25 is doable, but the woman is just gonna cuss at me. I don't think she'd be able to have much success.

At the local GC range on GL 205, they knocked down the 25 yard butt and its now 50 or 100 yards. And I'm good with that. I've been there when the boys from the hood were shooting and it wasn't safe. Good riddance. I go there now only if the club range is closed when I want to shoot. Here in the Lehigh Valley there are almost as many gun clubs as golf courses. And not much money. Outside of Philly and Pittsburgh, I would expect its much the same.

My wife and I used to shoot at a PGC range in Luzerne County, up off Rt 118. The handgun range used to have targets at 15 and 25 yards. A few years ago, they re-did the range and got rid of the 15 yard targets. Even with the 15 yard targets, it was hard to teach a new shooter at that distance. At 25 yards, forget it. I don't know their rationale for getting rid of the shorter targets.

The current PGC range I use to sight in my guns has 50 and 100 yard targets. It's still in Luzerne County, but in a different part of the county. I think the PGC lists it as a "rifle range".....while others are listed as having both rifle and handgun targets.

You have to remember, the PGC ranges, both handgun and rifle are centered around hunting and not necessarily self-defense shooting.

Yup, you're right. The ranges,are really for hunters. Still, ya gotta start somewhere. I'll take the beginning shooter tack, and not lean on the defensive shooting angle.

Sadly, this is how many of the "handgun" targets look on the PGC ranges. And this one isn't really that bad compared to the others I've seen.