The thread on the elk hunting forum about packing and safety with kids got me thinking. I'm a doctor in a small town, ED and clinic both, and I see lots of horse wreck victims. I've always wanted to use pack stock, but I'm in my 50s, have little experience with horses or mules, and I really don't want to spend a season or the rest of my life laid up. So, I've been using llamas for the last several years. My question: is there a safe way to get started with horses or mules?

Last weekend we were on the trail with the llamas in Rocky Mountain National Park and ran into some horse riders, one of whom turned out to be a long lost cousin. Their horses were the best I've seen on the trail regarding llamas. No bucking, snorting, thrashing, bolting, etc. These turned out to be Missouri Foxtrotters. I commented on this, and their owners opined that a gaited Missouri mule might be a good choce for a novice packer like me. Rather than try to get through all the smoke on the internet I thought perhaps Saddlesore and others might offer well reasoned opinion.

These Missouri Foxtrotters seemed unusually well behaved. Maybe it is just my luck or maybe there is an unusual preponderance of rough, ill tempered broncs around here but whenever I see or hear horses coming I try to get my llamas as far off the trail as I can. These experiecnes plus my observations in the ED make me want to steer well clear of horses and stick with my llamas. I'm not trying to be critical or to start a fight, jsut thinking out loud about the wisdom of starting a pack string at my age.

I'm sure others with more experience will chime in, I've hunted a lot on horses, usually ranch horses put to work during the season. And we put a lot of clients, 30+ each year, on 'em. The best I've seen were a work/Quarter horse cross, pretty docile and they'll handle lots of use.

I like mules also, a good mule (insert expensive) is well worth the money.

This one is the best animal I've ever been on, not a beginner mule though.

One of the work horse crosses, this one's built more like a Quarter horse.

As for getting started, I'd hook up with someone with lots of experience. I learned from the best of cowboys, I'm just not the best learner. Some ranches will allow a guy to help and you can get some time on good using horses.

You'll be hooked if all goes well, even if it don't go well, it makes for great campfire stories!

For someone just learning,it's best to get a horse or mule that knows it all.That means some money, $3K is starting for a decent mule,but that is not a guarantee.

I prefer mules because as the saying goes. A horse will kill you buy accident and a mule will kill you on purpose.They are that much more smarter than a horse. Also a good mule is 10 times better than a good horse,but a bad mule is 100 times worse than a bad horse. These two statements should make you aware of what you are getting into with mules( or horses) and why that up front money pays for the future.

A person needs to start off with riding and packing with someone who knows how to do it and handle livestock.It doesn't come from books and takes several years to get to know how,what,why.

That knowledgeable person also needs to take on the task of watching out for the neophyte and keeping him/her safe.

No matter the knowledge,training and such, sooner or later you will get hurt. How much you learn and how careful you are will determine how bad that injury will be.
I havehad quite afew difernt breedings of mules and one Ihavenow is 30 yrs old cand coemout of Missouri Fox Trotter. Darn good all around mule and good disposition.Howver thear slight of frame.Next,I would go to vote for a Walker mare bred to a good jack. Problem being they usually throw tall mules and I'm vertically challenged.
Quarter horse mares will throw good mules to,but you have to watch the disposition of the mare.

I presently have a Halflinger mule at 15 hands.Too big for me, but she dose very well hunting. Her biggest problem is she is a little bit too fearful of things. She is not a town mule but will sure lead a pack string.You just have to be riding her every minute.She is stout and has no quit in her.
At the bottom of the list are thorobred and arabian mares to make mules out of and just about very warm or hot blood breed. They are just too flighty.

Diposition is the number 1 trait you have to have in a mule. Confirmation is next, looks and cloro is at the bottonm of the list. For the person, he /she needs to be able to bond with the mule and gain thier trust.Mules do not have a lot of leaderhsip qualities and need to have an owner they can trust.

Size wise an mule equal in isze to a horse will out work the horse, all other things being equal so a person can get along with a smaller mule. A taller individual will probably nee da taller mule though, the smaller mules are handier in the timber and easier to load packs on.

I stay away from llamas like the plague.They can't carry much and cause wrecks on the trail when horses are encountered, because most horse just don't get around them much.I want a pack animal that can tote 200lbs day in and day out nand an animal I can saddle up and ride,not walk. I want to do my walking when I am hunting,not getting to and from camp.

That reminds me of a story in "TULAROSA, Last Of The Frontier West," by C.L. Sonnichen, Univ. of New Mexico Press, (c)1960. In it he recounts the history of New Mexico and it's settlers, outlaws, ranchers, etc.

One old crusty rancher, John Prather, who was a third generation N.M. rancher had his ranch located on what became the White Sands Proving Grounds. The Army wanted his property and he would not sell, or move, no matter condemnation efforts, Federal Marshals, local Deputy Sheriffs, etc. He swore he'd die before moving, and he'd die by taking some of the "confiscators" with him.

Finally, trying to reason with the old man, an Army major said to Prather, "Sir, we're going to be shooting rockets and missles right over your house. Doesn't that concern you?"

Prather looked him in the eye and said, "Missles? I am not afraid of missles. I have raised mules all my life."

The Army finally relented and Prather kept his ranch until he died. Then it became property of the Army.

That tells you something about mules, huh?

L.W.

One more question. How would a mule do being led all the time and not ridden, and do they need companions or are they okay going alone. I'm the opposite of Saddlesore. I like to walk, kind of like Po Camp in the Lonesome Dove story.

No problem just walking the mule.They will get attached to the owner,the same as another animal.Problem might be leaving them alone in camp then.They are going to bray, bawl, act out. They don't like to be alone if they don't live alone.

If they spend thier life alone while not being used,it would probably work out.

I'm going to stick my $0.02 in here...

There's a good saying out there that fits; "You have to treat a mule like you should treat a horse".

They are herd animals, so just owning one really isn't an option unless you want behavior problems.

They (horses & mules) are prey animals and don't understand punishment. They understand discipline better than people do and they absolutely live "in the moment", meaning that what they did ten minutes ago is irrelevant, and they have no concept of the future.

Finding a horse that is healthy, has the conformation and the temperament to do what you are needing it to do, and doesn't cost a bloody fortune is not an easy thing to do.

There have been threads here about ranch horses, and some good references given.

Find a rancher that believes in treating his/her horses/mules with dignity and you're on your way.

Equines are different than any other critter I've ever worked with. If you get one that will bond with you, you will have a willing partner that will go where ever you want, whenever you want.

There's a lot of garbage out there about "natural horesemanship", but there is some very sound advice and training out there under that banner, too. Some of it will get you started out with a strong ground-training background and will help you AND your mount stay safe.

Shoot Rio7 a PM and see what he advises about packing. I think he's used a horse a couple of times.

Best wishes in your search!

Oh, I almost forgot. I'm partial to Quarter Horse stock, those stocky, cutting horse types. Like this;



Ed

Find some mentor candidates and swap stories about injuries you have treated. If they can match you story for story, find some one else to show you the ropes.

The above is advice that I would like to have gotten when I got the horse bug in my mid 40's. Saw wrecks every time we went out. Some clinics and different exposures made it clear why we had so many problems - look for a "good deal" (really cheap) on a horse that has done it all, saddle them up just before hunting season and you can learn about wreck first hand.

My next steed I plan to "deal on a good horse/mule" not get a good deal on them.

Good luck

I'll chime in.

There's only one way to brake a saddle in. You can't rub it or oil it broke-in unless the oil is in your jeans.
You've received some very sound advice here. I'll reiterate a few things.
What you need to learn can't be learned by reading or watching. Sure you can go to seminars or clinics and you get general idea's but until you've done it and repeated in a few hundred times you won't learn it. Sometimes it is as much about training humans as much as horses.

You've reverenced some breeds. In the end everyone will have their favorites. The truth is. Any horse/mule of any breed can be what you want it to be. It all depends on who is laying the foundation and who's putting on the time and then who puts on the miles. You can make the worst horse/mule as well if you're not doing what needs to be done.

Having a good lead/saddle horse and a good string that is safe WILL NOT happen after a few rides. It is pure hookie BS that the Missouri Mule is better than X,Y or Z horse/mule. You can't get a good one(s) without sweating leather for miles. What makes em good is the time and miles. They need to experience all the boogie monsters there are. You can show them some of them or variations of them in the round pen but first hand experience trumps all. The goods ones have this. It has NOTHING to do with the breed. However, I will say some horses/mules breeds will learn faster than others.

Can you learn to be a good packer with a good string at your age? YES with out question. It all depends on how much time you are willing to commit. I've thrown a few hitches. I've made a few sparks. But it wasn't until after packing with a couple of good packers many moons ago that I learned what really needed to be learned. I imagine you are located around the CO,UT,NM area's...??
Your Llama's can carry about 80lb's max, each, no? One horse/mule can carry twice that and better built one's even more.
If you do you r part you also can build unique relationships with your ponies/mules. I can't really explain this one as it is only done and understood by those that have.

So to answer your question:

Yes, but you'll need to find good ones, and then spend time with them... and on them... and then both. If you can find an outfitter willing to let you watch and learn when he's taking a pack trip or better yet packing in a camp. you can learn quite a few things that you can go work on.

This thing you want to do is quite awesome. Once you've got a good grip on it and you have a few good ponies or mules, understand the dangers involved, you'll have a freedom few know. However, you need to be realistic about it. Open minded about it. Then willing to dedicate to learning it.

Nothing like a good pony and a tight hitch.

Lot of good advice for you. The only thing I might disagree with is that you can make a good horse or mule out of any breed. I think you can make them useable, but certain breeds aer more ameniable to certain task than others. That is the basic reason different breeds came about.

Thorbreds are bred ot run/jump.
1/4 horses are bred for agility,cow sense, work ethics etc.
Fox Trotters, Tennesse Walkers,Paso Finos etc. are bred for smoothness of gait.
Percherons are bred for heavy work.
Arabians are bred for endurance.
And so on and os on.

Just about all breeds can do any of these jobs, but each of these are more suited to thier intended task, but every once in awhile you can find a horse or mule that does all very well and that can usally be attributed to thier disposition, the trainer and the way they are handled.

There is a HUGE difference in what is referred to as a Missouri mule and Missouri Fox Trotter mule. The Missouri mule is usually referenced as one that has been bred from some type of heavy horse, ( usually belgiums) and a Mammoth jack.
The Missouri Fox Trotter is a gaited small framed horse and produces like mules.

In the mule world for the last several years,the buzz word has been gaited mules. Peopele tack big money on a mule if they claim it is gaited. In actuality, most mules are smoother gaited than a horse and when used in mountain riding, a gaited mule doesn't add much because you are negotiating rough, steep trails. The gaited aspect only comes into play on those not so treacherous trails. Nothing wrong with a nice smooth gaited animals when you want to cover a lot of ground fast.

I have people come up to me and the first thing they ask is if the mule is gaited. Then further talks,I find they don't know zip about a mule.I don't waste anymore time on them after that.

Thanks for all the info and the great photos. Yep, we live out on the backside of Colorado. Along these lines, my wife worked for an old timey outfitter named Jim Brink a couple of seasons ago for free and got pretty comfortable with the horses. He used a bunch of big half draft types. Pretty good horses and by the end of the season she was taking a string in and out by herself. She thinks a big part of that working safely was the high quality of Jim's horses. The big question you all have pointed out is do I have and/ or want to spend the time it takes to do it right.

If one set his mind to it and commits you can do most anything with any breed. However, as you referenced some are quite better than others.
We had a champion bucking horse that was in our dude string. He was as safe as any seasoned baby sitter.
I'm beginning to make a "string" out of these Rocky's we manage and things are going well. However, I prefer Mustangs and mules for "string".
Gaited horses are fun when you have the terrain to use them. I've enjoyed every minute teaching these gaited ponies to navigate the hills. One thing I do see as an advantage is even when not using the gait they have a longer stride and still average a faster speed over all. Truth be told in teaching this pony "Dawn" the ropes... I hardly if ever used her gait.

I whole heartedly agree that a mule is one smooth ride. I do very much enjoy a good saddle mule. The wife and I intend to purchase a few mares from the owner of the ranch we manage for and will breed them to a Jack to find out for ourselves what can be discovered from gaited mules. That's a 5 year thing though.


To the OP.

I think if you invest the time and do it right you'll have no regrets and discover an entirely new freedom to run the hills. Even in consecutive days without ever coming home. Some get it, some don't. Those who do are addicted. Those who are addicted know what I mean.

One thing about using horses or mules is that it can greatly extend your hunting career. I'll be 69 in few weeks with several health issues of back and lungs.If I didn't have a good saddle mule and a pack mule, I'd have to quit hunting. Those issues prevent me for having more animals,so I can't do pack ins anymore, but I can camp at my truck and ride in every day 5-8 miles,mostly in the dark, hunt and then ride back out.

Last year I hunted by myself. I hunted a total of 17 days for elk and was in the woods 24 days thru two differnt seasons.

With horses or mules,you don't tire yourself out walking into your hunting area. You can hunt as hard as you want and all you have to do at the end of the day is enough energy to crawl back in the saddle and ride back to camp without falling off.

Good on ya SS. Well said too.

I kinda chuckle at these guys who brag on hikin' in. Albeit it ain't easy and they work for their rewards. However, when they are 50% spent I've already passed em and go on 3X's further.

A guy who taught me much of what I know about packin' and guiding. (He's in "the books" with many of the trophy's he's guided for.) said...

"why go afoot when you can have a pony under ya", "just seems stupid" and he's a mule guy!

I don't have room for horses but my llamas are in between at that. I still have to walk but I can go in with a llama packing my rifle and day pack. If I score, they will bring out the load.
I'll be 64 in a couple weeks and my partners are 66 & 68. We're getting too old to be backpacking elk quarters but with pack stock, we're all good for some years yet.

Well, boys, I'm working in the ER tonight and just finished putting a nice 53 year old lady into a helicopter for a fast trip to Denver. She was riding a safe dude ranch horse. As near as people can tell, she pulled open the velcro fastener on a water bottle holder and the horse freaked out and bucked her off pretty hard. Looks like bleeding in the abdomen, emergency surgery, etc. Damn. Real nice lady, nice people from the ranch, and so on. Damn.

A good discussion. Just remember that all equines are dangerous under certain conditions. For the mountains, cold blooded breeds do best like Quarters, but I have ridden some excellent little Arabs that were handy to get on and never quit. They had never been ridden by women or God forbid little girls. There are plenty of grade horses that can do the job.

The best mule of my life was out of a Missouri Fox Trotter mare. I got her to flat walk but never tried really to get her to gait because her trots were pretty flat. She had sense and size and could really travel. She did not panic which is the hardest part to accomplish. She was good around bears, but got a little tense around big cats.

Leading pack animals from the ground has been practiced around the world for many centuries. There is little to go wrong. That is worth thinking about on remote trips where you can get bucked off in rough country 40 miles from the nearest dirt road.

It is ironic that at age 62 my packing days are over due to some bad wrecks but I am now backpacking again. I would love to go on a long trip leading a couple of donkeys of a bunch of llamas. My adventerous trips with horses and mules took place when I was a younger man and could take hitting the ground better. I still wake up in a cold sweat some times thinking about the wrecks "out there" before cell phones and sat phones. Don't let peer pressure make you ride if you are not up to it.

Wow...

Who is the one who said it was a safe dude ranch horse?

It appears you are letting the accidents and uneducated horsey people sway your opinion on horses.

Iforget who it was said "Horse's are rugged sport". We can put year's of training and riding into a horse, and they are still a living breathing being that can get frightened by something or simply make a mistake. A 58 year old man from Germany was killed the other day and a young boy injured after coming off their "dude horse's" during a guided trail ride in Yellowstone Park. The horse's were startled by some bird's. IMHO the best we can do is put as much time into our horse's as we can, and be honest as to our ability as rider's.

I am one of the uneducated horsey people...
This time of year it is a rare week that I don't see at least one horse wreck victim. Yesterday I also took care of an ATV rider with a badly broken leg and a downhill mountain biker with a broken neck. Personally I don't ride ATVs while intoxicated or jump mountain bikes over 30 foot gaps. As Byron noted, I'm trying to be real honest about my ability and how much time I want to invest into becoming an educated horsey person. I recognized what saddlesore said: sooner or later you will get hurt. I am just weighing the risks of learning

As much as I would hate this for me; if you like to walk and have llamas already I'd probably just keep that up.

I would never keep one mule/horse alone. Leading them can work fine, but it can also suck. A fast walker can easily step on you, especially in rough country.

If you still want to get into horses than start working with the outfitter that your wife worked with. Having a Doc in camp comes in handy sometimes anyway, for both man and beast.

Everyone who rides will eventually get hurt.

Some of the worst folks to work with while you are learning are the horse folks. If they are a woman, show horses, or belong to the backcountry horse associations then red flags should go up. If they fit into all three then run away.

Find an ol'time outfitter, packer, or cowboy.

I haven't said anything since first reading this, mostly just didn't want to be the turd in the punchbowl, but I don't think there's any such thing as a safe horse. Some just are not as dangerous as others, but all horses are dangerous. Just my opinion Doc.

Would love to have horses haul me in and dump me off sometimes, have and will continue to use horses at times, good ones. However, I've spent 19 days in the Spanish Peaks this summer and for what I've been doing, they'd have kept me from seeing more than half of what I have. Horses cannot walk where a stong backpacker can. Never. Them are the facts.

A llama won't outwalk you. Their favorite gait is what we call a slow ramble...except coming back to camp. Some of them will push you when camp's getting close. I carry a trekking pole to whack a front leg on occasion when one gets pushing too hard. That usually slows them down.
They're much easier to handle than horses because you don't have to carry feed unless there's a fair amount of snow and they normally won't get tangled up in tether ropes. I just lay a long line on the ground with o-rings laced into it and tie them to the rings. If they get their feet tangled up, they'll just keep working their feet until they're untangled.

However, there are times when riding would sure be nice.

Idea is to ride in to a camp and then walk from there or ride into your hunting area and walk from there. I hunted MT Shavano for goat some time back. Too rugged to ride, but we walked two mules in with packs to base camp and then climbed about 1500 ft.

I don't think anyone is saying you ride everywhere.

Just because someone says the horse is safe dont mean it is!.....if a velcroe strap scared the horse enough to buck well........

For the fella that says all horses is unsafe or however you put it......whatever.

I get a chuckle at the guys that say horses/mules have a mind of their own(no chit) and refuse to ride them. Yet they'll run a boat up the river runnin 70-90mph ride /race bikes or atv's. Heck ya horses can be dangerous but so can swimming or riding a bicycle. The rougher the country or the rougher you ride may increase your odds of getting hurt but that can be said for hiking as well.

Anyone ever known of someone gettin hurt playin sports?

If you want a true mountain horse to get you through the rough stuff look e here men.......

That would have been me. Horses are large, dangerous animals.

Fixt.

So according to Richard we should stay away from any large thing that has the potential to be dangerous? Richard must not have seen the pic of my brother on the not so large horse....lol

This boy is scared to death...can't ya tell

My lil nephew is pretty nervous too.....



Guns can be dangerous too. Should we leave those for the cowboys and outlaws too?

Thank you

Dangerous stallion

Maybe he got the good sense in the family?
I think guns are a good comparison. Handled correctly you're not likely to get hurt; same with horses. In your bravado, you somehow over looked I never said anything about not being around them. I've been around them most my life. What I said is all horses are dangerous, just a matter of how you deal with it.

Absolute statements are always wrong.

+1 They can be very dangerous with absolutely no intention of hurting you what so ever. I am still limping around on a broken or badly bruised toe from one of the safest horse I ever rode.

19 days... wow I'm a bit envious. I wish I had a job/boss that understanding. Albeit I don't think I'd want to spend that much of my summer away from the family. anyway...

I thought you'd might take offense. That wasn't a dig on you or what you do. Just a fact that ponies can more often than not extend your adventure. That's a fact and relevant. What you are doing many will not have the opportunity to do, Goat hunt. So your facts aren't really relevant. Horses are a wonderful tool to have. Faster walking through all types of terrain, even in complete darkness. More efficient in getting you there, extend your hunt by saving your energy and often an get you withing mere feet of game animals with out spooking them.

Case in point.

For a guy to get here...





To see this...






You have to go up this drainage.








which is more than 12 miles form the trail-head not including the mileage up the drainage.

You're a strong backpacker. But there is no way you're gonna get to those spots faster or with more energy in reserve than a guy in the saddle. Once the terrain is to severe. You find a place tie off and continue afoot. Simple no?

If I'm not mistaken guys outfitting in BC and the NW territories use ponies quite often for Goats and Sheep? Are they doing it wrong?

Dangerous are the hunters that know when and where to use horses. The guys who hunt as a means to have a horse adventure, have no more of a leg up on the ATV clowns. You always gotta go back to them tied up horses right?? That's a problem. Some guys don't/won't get it.

As for you implying I neglect my family.. I guess you've got to assume... just like you did with all them "outta staters" ruining your wyoming deer hunting by shooting all the dinks..

laffin..

8 and 11. And they love horses.

That's my point you done a better job of saying it. Anything and everything can be dangerous. Had a aunt once break a leg or ankle at a fire cracker show.

GH,

Never implied you neglect your family. Matter of fact, I was betting you'd show the pic of them along. Some things are predictable. Just like the fact you searched out my post in horses and ATV's and you've not posted much too or about horses.

laffin' just as much.

Never fails, if a thread goes to two pages or + it has no use to OP.

Cocadori, I am always up for a good laugh on the internet. After reading your cowboy-up days years ago when you were an outfitter in WY, I just can't look away. Good stuff, no doubt. Damn "outta staters"

Quite right. There a a lot of diffent ways to travel in the backcountry. I did not intend to get into a "my way is better than yours" or who is a better horseman discussion. I just want to learn about horses and mules. I greatly repsect people who have developed equine skills and trained their own animals to a high level.

Riverdog.If you need help, PM me and we can talk there. I have probably done most wrong things once and some twice.I'll share what works for me.

Life's short Kurt. Everyone has opportunities to make the most of it. You never know when life will change. Time and energy seem better spent focusing on positive stuff for ones self and others.

I was never a cowboy. I'm a horseman. There's a difference. I'll keep posting horsey stuff. Your kids might like it as they apparently love em. Keep checking on me it'll be hard to look away. It'll be good stuff too.

Seems to me you were a resident of NM. I was a resident of MT in 1985. I've just come back... albeit a bit further away.

If he hasn't I know I have. Running a guest ranch for 12 years I'm pretty lined out on what makes a good safe horse and the training needed. My mentor as well as one of our contracted trainers has been training horses for 60+ years. He/they worked with (along side of not for) Hunt, Dorrance, Vogt...the list goes on and on. I've got a pretty good pool to dip from. I'm sure if saddlesore can't fill your cup with knowledge I can help top it off. Albeit SS has a pretty damn good dally on what it takes, prolly needs no help getting you lined out.

You're right, life's short. I've never been a resident of NM, though I have hunted elk there, off horses, in a wilderness, without a guide.

I've never had a problem with "outta staters."

Riverdog - To horse or not to horse.. good luck with your search.

One of the most bomb proof horses I was around came from a bucking horse contractor of all places, a percheron cross. The guys saddle was loose and did not mention it to anybody. Anyway off he came,saddle and rider tangled under his belly. That horse stopped dead in his tracks and didn't move a muscle till someone got that guy out. I think its more the horses individual personality than their breeding that makes them a little more safer to ride than some.

I'm inclined to lean that way as well.

Same thing happened to my dad many years ago although he was leading the horse with a deer on top of the saddle. The horse just planted her feet and stayed put until he could get the cinch undone to resaddle her. You don't find too many like that.

Hope the foot's getting better. Shoeing? Had one of the quietest horse ever break my foot trimming him. He meant me no harm, just broke my foot after a large tarp got lifted by the wind. Same tarp he staired at everyday waiting for his hay.

Same thing happened to my wife in really rough country in Az Superstition mts. She slid sideways underneath the horse's belly, laying on the ground could not get her feet out of the stirrups. I jumped off my horse, went and grabbed her out from under the horse. The horse was froze with legs wide apart. We whirled the saddle back into position, tightened the cinch. We had to physically make the horse move, he was scared to death that he was going hurt my wife....hell of a horse to keep his composure like this in the roughest terrain you could immagine.

Wife was having fun with her girl friend and thought that I had cinched up the horse, she never checked her own cinch...she never did that agian.

I had a 3 yr old mule fall in some flat rock country.The rock itself was small,but down she went and jumped back up.I on the other hand, got bounced pretty hard and ended up with my left foot hung up and twisted in the stirrup fender with my spur dug in. My scabbard, with a muzzle loader was on that side and she fell directly on her side with the scabbard/rifle between her and my leg.I heard a loud snap and thought it was my leg as when I looked up, it was twisted at a funny angle.

I had dropped he reins and saw one hanging down, was able to grab it and asked her to stand. Luckily she did. My right shoulder as barely touching the ground.

My hunting partner was able to dismount his mule and come around to grab my mule and then he had to lift me to get my foot unhung. Bad day all around, and luckily my leg was not broken,but it sure hurt like hell for a week or so.

I use STI break away stirrups now.

I'm lucky she was a calm mule and did not spook as I would have surely been killed. A fellow in Grand Junction owns her now and he sends me emails bragging what a good mule he bought.

I have nothing to add except to say I have enjoyed reading this thread.

You need to get on your belly so you can get your foot out of either the stirup or your boot. Having your spur lock you on your back would not be a good thing. Aren't you glad you were nice to that mule saddlesore?

"Aren't you glad you were nice to that mule saddlesore?"
That's for sure.

I have been riding since about ten yrs old, That is about 59 years now. I was bucked off once on a loco weeded mule, another mule who I did not know disliked spurs, and another green mule that I had bent down to adjust a stirrup.

I had one horse rear up and go over back wards with me that unscrewed my neck and put me in a brace for 2 months. I probably fell off my little paint welsh pony a few times when I started riding as we had to ride bare back at first

Aside from those few incidences I have pretty much been lucky. A few step ons, kicks, etc and a jammed shoulder.

A safe horse is an oxymoron.

Loosening the velcro on an insulated saddle bag to retrieve a frosty cold adult beverage. The first time I used one of those bags. That sound must have been new to him.

They know how to take care of their riders. In rough or icy trerrain some horses know how to fall, they know they have to keep the riders on their backs at all cost. The horses I can't stand, and as far as I am concerned should be in a dog food can are those POS that spook and use it for an excuse to buck their riders off.

I don't think any horse or mule is all that interested in keeping thier riders safe.They are intersted in keeping themselves safe and the rider is just lucky enough to go along with it. The more mature an animal is,the more that becomes a learned task, along with good training.
When we start trying to impart human emotions and thought proceses into equines,we usually end up in trouble.

Speaking of saddles...several years ago, my next door neighbor was saddle breaking a 2 yo gelding. He had it saddled and turned it loose in his fenced front yard to get used to having it on his back. I looked over there and saw that the colt had apparently scratched it's nose with a hind hoof and the hoof had gone right through the stirrup. All hell was getting ready to cut loose. I called the guy and ran over there and got hold of the halter about the time that he came out of the house. The colt was scared but we were able to get the cinch unbuckled before anyone got hurt.

Rock Chuck,
Good one. To all those people that insist on using a rear cinch swinging in breeze when they don't even carry a rope. A hind foot or a stick in there has caused some real wrecks.

Kaleb,
Nice photos. I especially like the two front feet on the stump. It is not that easy. But I would urge you to use some more caution. I remember saying to a friend a few years ago:
"Do I look scared?" A year late I was in two wrecks that changed my life. Don't take anything for granted especially with kids and people that lack experience.

I really appreciate the input here. I think the best thing for me is to stick with my llamas. I drew a bighorn sheep tag this year and I'm just back from a 5 day scouting trip, packing with my llamas. We covered some very rough, high, steep, etc. terrain with no problems. I spent a good amount of those 5 days thinking about the horse and mule issue. I think I could learn to ride and be reasonably safe. I have about 3 good friends around here that are lifelong horsemen, and none of them are crippled. They would bring me along and do a good job of keeping me safe. The thing is I really don't want to spend the time and money. I'd rather go fishing, hiking, shooting, etc and then walk into the backcountry with my llamas. Then every now and then I can take a trip with a carefully chosen outfitter and enjoy riding in the mountains. So, to the guys here that have patiently answered my questions, thank you very much. I admire your accomplishments and your willingness to teach a llama packer.

You probably made the right decision for you.

I don't disagree with you often, but more than once I've been bailed out by a horse (yes, a horse) and there was no doubt in my mind he was taking care of me and knew it. On the other hand, a few others have gone out of their way to bust my knee on a tree that really wasn't that convenient for him to begin with and he knew it.

I slid down a steep embankment with my white horse in tow. It ended up with the horse standing spread eagle with his front legs over my head. He could have just as easy stepped on my shoulder or head. That horse is very careful where he places his feet when people are near him. As for my paint, his feet go down where they go down and if you foot is there thats your problem.

This has been a great read fellas, thanks. I haven't been on a horse since I was a little fart. Hope to one day own a couple. Have an uncle that keeps barrel horses and a cousin that trains them, so at least I have some family to ask.

I too am enjoying this thread. Comcur with a good one (mule)is great and a bad one is really terrible. There is a difference in the folks who grew up in this life out in the world and not just the arena. Arena knowledge is not wrong, but one needs much more for the wildlands.

As far as learning to ride and pack, it would be absolutly great to go with an oldtimer and learn from his (or hers!) decades of knowledge. What they have paid for in blood and calluses is beyond price. The animals you need have to have a very sound mind, and reasonably sound body. And you need to know how to "read" them to know how to handle em. Good luck in this process of learning, it could be very rewarding for you..

My husband is still shoeing all week every week at 67, I am 55, need a knee replaced, but we are sure planning on a Colorado hunting trip for elk this fall. With out our riding/packing mules, we can do it, without, no way.

I'm leaving this Wednesday for a 12 day tune up Nancy. hope I don't encounter those 2000 sheep like last year with this mule that does not like sheep.

Just last night I was out riding with my Sister-in-law, almost home, turned in the saddle talking to her when my mule spooked at something. He whirled to the left and back while I went over the front. It happened so quick I didn't have time to do anything but duck my head and luckily landed on my hip and shoulder in the gravel road. Worst damage is the burn on my hand from the rein pulling through. We've been through that spot hundreds of times, between my Brother's commodity shed and a feedlot for dry cows so it was familiar country for him. I'm guessing some coons busted out of the weeds or something at that time of the evening.
The mule has been a good one and this is the first time I've seen anything like this out of him. Cindy was on a 3 year old, green broke, high strung, trouble maker who didn't even flinch. Goes to show they can all cause trouble at some point.

I can heartily recommend a packing school for a week or so to get started on the right foot. Then you will learn from professionals and work with some experienced animals. They cost less than a regular commercial pack trip because the students do most of the work. I was fortunate enough to ride with Lee Rouser in 1978 and Bob Tanner's crew a short time later out of Mammoth Lakes, CA. Sawbucks and diamonds work for most anything.

I went on a private trip with friends in WY once and thought it was funny when they used a scale to balance panniers. We trotted that horse string for miles when we had good trail doing 25 miles a day in the mountains. We never had to adjust a pack oonce.

Good luck on your hunt there Vince... and don't seek the sheep!

Where is Travis when good advice abounds?

I rented a string of horses in WY from some guys we knew. They were all untested. About 40 miles in we were lined out and moving good, but we are all kind of sleepy. I allowed the horse I was riding to get the lead rope caught under his tail and he clamped down on it right on his butt hole. Horses on pack strings should be trained to deal with it. He wasn't and started the crow hopping and bucking on a steep trail. I bailed off after about 4 jumps on the uphill side to the right. It was so steep I slid under the horses feet. He stopped and waited for me to get up. During the commotion a very sharp hunting knife came out of its sheath, but no harm no foul. Forty miles in with no cell phone, no sat phone and no help. The horse did okay. He saved my life. We finished the week long trip without incident except for negotiating a rock slide.

Bad ride beats a good walk any day

I've been around a bunch of horses that have led pack strings for years and miles and roping horses that have roped thousands of times. Some of them consider the rimfire spot completely off limits no matter how many times.

I've used a crouper on some colts to try and get them used to it, but I'm not real eager to find out for sure.

Where were you on this trip?

Ralphie,
We were in the Absoroka Range on the South Fork of the Shoshone River where Bill Cody took Grand Duke Alexis of Prussia on that famous hunting trip.

Your point about off limits areas is well taken. Crouper breaking and any other kind you can think of like mounting on the right, pulling weight with a rope, etc. really helps the useful and safety of mountain horses and mules. Backpacks, bicyckes, gunshots, llamas, the list is endless. People used to ask me if I could shoot off my mules. "Sure" I said, " I can shoot off all of them...once."

You all have it all wrong. You don't ride the horses, you drive them.
http://s716.beta.photobucket.com/user/chochocookie/media/cominghome.mp4.html

http://s716.beta.photobucket.com/user/chochocookie/media/aroundtocabin.mp4.html

Probably the safest thing my mule does is go along with a rope under her tail.Harness work with a cripoer did that,but I ride with britching.

I have croupers on my llama saddles. I don't like them and the llamas like them even less but they do work. Normally I leave them loose and laid over the back of the saddles until I'm going down something steep.
I'd like to replace them with britching but so far I haven't found any that will fit my saddles. I'm about ready to invent my own but they'll have to be nylon. I don't have any way of sewing leather.

Rock Chuck.I rigged an entire pack saddle with leather without sewing a stitch.Using leather strips,you can punch holes in the leather you would sew and string with the leather strips. Just as stronga s sewing.You can also heavy rivet the stress points. This saddle has been going strong for 35-40 years

I don't need them to be nearly as strong as you'd need with mules. They'll be carrying a max of 100lb. They don't need padding, either, as their fleece protects their legs. The main thing is adjustability. Male llamas have their testicles sticking out the back so you have to be careful to keep straps away from them.

Get a quality punch and a speedy stitcher. We've done that to repair leather. It's time consuming, but you can make it exactly as you want it, rather than adapting gear made for a different critter. Probably not a lot of commercial llama tack.

As Vince stated, you can rivet the stress points.

Here is my crew. 2 are out of Tennessee Walker mares and one out of a Fox Trotter mare and the one from a Quarter Horse mare.

They are a whole lot of fun to ride but there is a lot that can go wrong on top of 1300 lbs of muscle and bone with a mind of its own. I reckon they are less dangerous than running 4 wheelers in rough country.

Sharp shod with Drill Tex and snow pads they can stick to an icy hillside in places I have a hard time keeping my footing.






They all have distinct personalities (mulealities?) not to mention strengths and weaknesses. Lots of fun but the risks are real and even the best animals can hurt you if you screw up or are just unlucky.

I don't have anything to add, but I must say I have enjoyed reading this thread. Before I moved to Montana, I had been known to say " I can't see feeding a horse or mule, as long as you can buy gasoline." but I soon learned that there are places here that if you are to navigate, then horses or mules are about the only way to navigate.

Tim

Do your mules like those myler combo bits better than a snaffle?

Those are good looking mules!

Those mules are proprietary.

lol.......

Nice pics John!

No but I sure do.

Actually the combos can work like a snaffle and let you get the neck bent when they are voting for a different direction.

I get nervous in the hills with curb bits when the shanks are locked, especially on a horse with a light front end but with the broken shanks on the combos you do still have a lot of direct rein control and some curb when trying to use one hand while leading a string.

Overall I think it is a great bit on an animal that is used to some curb pressure and the nose band takes some of the under chin pressure off if someone gets too aggressive.

John.

You need to roach those manes>

I have one molly mule that I tried those bits on.Ends up,she fusses with every piece of metal I put in her mouth. Not bad, just annoying. I started her in a bosal, and now work her in a mechanical hackmore.She is a lot happier and I am for sure.
She goes down the trail now with her ears a floppin.

I know what you meant about them voting on things.

I figured you might have a comment about the hippys I was riding and packing.

Next thing you know they will want to get Tattoos, but that is where I will draw the line.

I used Myler bits after running into the Myler brothers several times. I played golf with one of them years ago when I still played golf. I found that a plain smooth snaffle worked fine for nearly everything. I have used hackamores on mules in a big arena to work on legs cues and seat bone cues.

A mule out of a Missouri Foxtrotter mare, was broke and good minded, but didn't have much of a handle. She liked to chase one of our geldings. I used to ride her with the mecate reins loose on her neck. Right before she was going to turn right chasing the horse, I would give her strong leg cues. Pretty soon she got much lighter. She would stop without touching her face just by sitting on the seat pockets and saying whoa. One spring day, she was frisky so we loped down the beach by a lake at high speed. I said whoa and gave her the cues. She left skid marks for many feet. Not bad for a mule with no handle. The mind of a mule is a like a lock that needs a key. You have to find the key and they are all different.

I think saddele sore covers it very well ... he doesn not quite say it but there is a lot of hard knock experience speaking I would love to do a three week move every two or three days with this guy .... thats where the learning comes in... I hasve been to the mountains a couple of times chasing cariboo, alwlays with just horses... there has always been a minor wreck of two... swamps etc., no one ever got hurt, I know we were lucky.... age, lost partners, bad joints dont allow it any more, but I have not lost interest in hearing about it.....