.338 mag vs. .340 wby mag - 24hourcampfire

Gentlemen,
 
 Been looking at larger bore rifles, I was wondering (other than the name and price) what is the difference between a .338 mag and a .340 wby mag. I was looking at the Speer manual and their reloading manual gives me the impression that the .338 out performs the .340.
 
 What are the opinions of the forum? Is the Weatherby worth the extra premium that one would pay for it? The ammo seems more expensive.
 
 Thanx
 
 George

Quoting from Lynman's guide to: Big Game Cartridges & rifles
 
 "The 340 Weatherby is a step up in performance over the .338 Winchester. It has a velocity improvement of 150 fps over the 338."
 
 However, the ammo is a lot more expensive, harder to find and it has more recoil.
 
 The .338 can generally do just as good of a job as the .340 weatherby.

Well...............
 
 The 340 certainly outperforms the 338. But then the 338 ultra, outperforms the Wby, and of course the 338/378 weatherby outdoes the ulta..........then again if you took a 50 BMG and necked it..........Oh!!! sorry, sorta lost my head.
 
 The Weatherby offers more velocity as do the others but the price in ammo costs, recoil (yikes) and related aggravations would not be worth it to me. You (can) use calibers like these for lots of things, and they (will) work, but if you have other choices, I don't see much usefullness in Baja Alaska.
 
 On the other hand, if big and bad is what blows your skirt up, these are all in the baaaaadddd category.
 
 JimF

I had a 340 Wby built on a fully accurized 700 with a Shilen Barrel in a HS Precision stock. I couldn't get more than 2800 fps with 250 grain bullets with any accuracy. I tried chambers both with and without the freebore. I had that exact barrel rechambered in 338 RUM and picked up a solid 150 fps and improved accuracy. I did change stocks with the 338 RUM to a McMillan.
 
 The recoil from a 340 is stout. I did not think the 100 fps increase in velocity the 340 provided over the 338 Win was worth the exponential increase in recoil the 340 provided. However, the 338 RUM--in the McMillan stock--isn't any more uncomfortable to shoot that the 340 was in the HS Stock.
 
 From what I've seen through my chronograph, a 338 Win will get 2600-2700 fps with 250 grain bullets. (I chronoed some factory loads at the range last week, and they barely went 2600). A 340 Wby will get around 2800 fps with handloads. I didn't chrono any factory ammo through my 340, but I think the claimed 3000 fps with 250 grain bullets is extremely optimistic. As you have noticed, most handloading manuals don't show much over 2800 fps with the 340.
 
 The 338 RUM gets around 2950. The 338 Win's recoil is mild (300 Win Mag level). the 340 and 338 RUM's recoil is stout, and does take some getting used to. In fact, my 416 Rem is more comfortable to shoot than either the 340 was or the 338 RUM is.
 
 I do know of one guy who had Blackstar electro-polish his 340's barrel and uses moly coated bullets. He gets 3030ish with 225 grain Barnes X bullets.
 
 Blaine

avagadrp.
 
 Here are some "Relative Recoil Factor" numbers:
 
 .30-30 1.69
 .30-06 2.19
 .338 2.93
 .340 3.33
 
 Source: "Ammo & Ballistics For Hunters, Shooters and Collectors."
 
 Norm

Recoil is a very subjective thing with many variables. Here are the recoil numbers from my 338 Win, 340 Wby, and 338 RUM. The 340 and 338 RUM are from my actual loads, the 338 Win data is from the Nosler manual for a higer velocity accurate load. Rifle weight is 9.5 lbs as shot.
 
 338 Win - 250 grainer at 2650: 33 ft lbs
 340 - 250 grainer at 2800: 43 ft lbs
 338 RUM - 250 grainer at 2950: 50 ft lbs
 
 However, the RUM is more comfortable to shoot that the 340 due to the better stock (McMillan vs HS Precision). Also, lighter bullets weights will decrease the recoil.
 
 My recommendation to a guy just stepping up to his first 338 bore is the 338 Win Mag. It has mild recoil (relatively) and enough thump for anything in NA out to as far as a good shot can hit with it. Ammo and components are readily available. I love my 338 RUM, but it does take some effort to get comfortable with--as does the 340. Also, I bought 500 cases of brass when I had the rifle made so I would never run out. This just isn't an issue with the 338 Win.
 
 Blaine

I agree with AFP that recoil is very subjective. I'll take the recoil of my (lighter) .338 Ultra over my .300 Wby accumark (with lighter bullets). Seriously! A large part of the equation is the stock fit.
 
 OK that said, get the 338 Ultra and don't look back. You can load it to 338 Win velocities if you want and are worried about recoil, but you can also stoke it up if you wish. I get over 3300 fps with 200 grain ballistic tips, 3100 fps with a "light" load using 210 grain Barnes XLC's. Another infamous poster here gets about 3400 fps with those blue wonders.
 
 LOVE the rifle!

Yeah, If you handload,get the 338 Ultra and don't look back. If you don't handload,I wouldn't consider it.
 
 They all three kick so it's important to try several and get the stock that fits YOU best.
 
 I'm getting 3260fps with the 210gr XBT/Moly bullets with very good accuracy. You can start off with light bullets and work your way up to full performance loads.
 
 My 338 Ultra has less "Felt Recoil" than my 338 WinMag because of the stock fitting me perfectly.
 
 Good luck...

Muley,
 
 For the benefit of those who don't know, The Accumark uses a HS Precision stock. That stock is Kevlar/Graphite over a foam with a full length aluminum bedding block--it doesn't flex--just like the HS Precision stock I had on my 340. A stiff stock may be very desurable in the "almost no recoil" BR chamberings, but when you start exceeding 35 ft lbs of recoil, a stock that soaks up recoil is a nice feature.
 
 Now, I had the 338 Win in the HS stock with no problems.
 
 Blaine

AFP,
 Actualy,only for the first couple years of production was the HS Presicison used on Accumarks.Then they changed the the cheaper and 8 oz. heavier Bell&Carlson.I had the same rifle with both stocks (LONG story!),and comparing the HS to the B&C was like comparing a high grade walnut stock made by a fine craftsman to a 2x4.
 
 The easiest way to tell the two apart is that the HS will say so on the recoil pad,and the B&C will say Decelorator.
 
 WB.

Bummer!! While the HS Precision isn't my favorite for heavier kickers, I do have a couple and like them on my 6mm Rem and 300 Win (700s).
 
 I wonder if Rem did the same thing on the Model 7 SS?
 
 Blaine

One of my favorite stories, which I admit to having told here before, is about a gun guru at the local Wally World telling a customer who had expressed an interest in the 338WM, "you need to look at the 340W... it might not seem like much, but those two extra thousandths make a BIG difference!"
 art

Art,
 
 He was more right than he knew.............. [Linked Image]

Blaine

Can any NA game tell the difference between a .338 Win. Mag. and a 340 WBY? If so, I want to see the stories.

Bearstalker, there you go being all logical again! [Linked Image]

Bearstalker,
 
 What the game animal can tell is irrelevant. It's what the hunter can tell (or thinks he can tell) that matters. A rifle chambering is maybe 25% for the game and 75% for the hunter.
 
 Blaine

If you think that a .300 Win Mag is the same as a .308 than you will like the .338. If not than you should get the .340.
 
 The fact that it will shoot 250 grain bullets 200fps faster if need be is a GOOD THING.
 
 For those of you who don't like the Weatherby Rifle, I have a Winchester SS in .338 that I had rechambered at Kesselrings Gunshop and a Pacific Research stock added four years ago.

Having hunted both, the 338 Win Mag is a real pussycat compared to the 340 Wby. I am not one who is recoil shy in the first place, however accuracy achieved with the 338 Win Mag is excellent because it does have a milder repor and can be dialed in from the bench quite nicely.
 
 Today, I should think the 338 Ultra would be more suitable than the 340 Wby. I am not a real fan of freeboring, as such, the 338 Ultra has no belt and is headspaced on the shoulder. A better setup for accuracy in a long range thumper does not exist (5,000 ft-lbs of ME). That said, the 338 Win Mag probably displays the best accuracy of all .33s and thats simply because it shoots milder than the rest. The case, even though wearing a belt is a good one producing excellent speed and accuracy in the .33s. Todays factory loadings with mixed powder propellents put the 338 Win Mag in new unchartered waters with Hornady's 225 grain at 2950 fps and now Federal pushing 250 grains at 2800 fps. What more do you really need.
 
 If I wanted a really fast .33, the Ultra is the call. The 338-378 Wby is a beast and requires most shooters to brake it for accuracy and handling. Again, freeboring is not my bag.
 
 Factory loaded ammo does not really give much of an advantage over the 338 Win Mag. With 250 grain factory loadings, here's the scoop.
 
 REM-338 Rem Ultra Mag, 250gr Swift A frame - 2860 fps
 Wby-340 Wby, 250 grain Part - 2941 fps
 Wby-338-378 Wby, 250 gr Part, - 3050 fps
 Fed-338 Win Mag, 250 Part, - 2800 fps
 Dakota - 330 Dakota, 250 Nos Part, - 2800 fps
 Norma - 338 Lapua, 300 grain load - 2800 fps
 Lazzeroni - 338 Titan, 250 grain Swift A - 3150 fps
 
 Handloading would open a whole new ball game for some of the big cased offerings, however, the 338 Win Mag with it's many factory offerings and handloadings may still be the most accurate of the bunch and will kill any game the above is attempting. Many Cape Buff have been killed with the 338 Win Mag, so don't be lead to believe that somehow your hugely handicapped by carrying a 338 Win Mag.

The reason I asked for input from the group is that in hopefully the next 3-4 years I want to go an a hunt for brown bear in alaska. I have been checking out websites and I have read that guides will not even considering taking some one out without a .338 WM or higher (with .375 HH prefered).
 
 I currently hunt with a .300 wby mag and am comfortable with the recoil. from Weatherby's literature the .340 really isn't that much more than the .300. When I purchased the .300 wby I was under the impression that it would meet my hunting needs for any game in north america (bad advice i guess). So if this bear hunt becomes a reality I'm going to have to step it up a little bit.
 
 I was going to go checking the local gun shops this week-end but research got in the way. So hopefully I will get a chance to go looking around and see what a .338 WM costs. I pretty much know what a .340 wby costs (aint pretty!!)
 
 I greatly appeciate all the input from the group. Since archery has just opened up in parts of the country I will wish you all good luck with the season and upcoming rifle seasons!
 
 George

avagadro,
 
 That info about the guides requiring a 338WM as a minimum...
 
 You didn't hear that at this site, right? [Linked Image]

I hope not, because I don't believe that to be true. My suggestion would be to call a couple guides, in the area you think you want to hunt, and ask them about what rifle to bring.
 
 I suspect that you'll get an answer that goes something like, "the biggest cartridge you can comfortably and accurately shoot". Naturally that cartridge should be something reasonable, like a 30-06 or bigger.
 
 The 338WM is a great cartridge, and if your really want to buy another rifle, then this is a really good choice. Can't fault your reasoning there! [Linked Image]

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is don't be hung up on a couple opinions from the internet. Ask the guides and see what they think.
 
 What rifle do you have now, that you might take if needed?

If you are going to buy this rifle for one hunt than buy a .375, the recoil of it and the .340 is about equal and not as daunting as most gunwriters would have you believe. I honestly believe my .340 with glass stock has less felt recoil than my partners wooden .300 Winnie.
 
 If you don't really want a new rifle for BB's than just load your .300 with 225 grn. bullets. It will be fine unless you get into a serious charge. Than even the .375 can be too small.

BW is dead on... if you shoot any 300 well and use premium bullets, bring it... wrong answer, wrong answer... buy whichever new rifle blows your dress up and then bring whichever one you shoot best. This should be viewed as a buying opportunity, just don't get hung up thinking you need more bore. ;-)
 
 I used to use a 300WM for back-up and never felt under-gunned...
 art

My current rifle is a .300 WBY MAG. I bought for the variety of game that i could hunt with it (thinking this would be the one "big" gun that I could use anywhere in North America). I feel really comfortable with it and enjoy shooting whenever i get the chance. It is the one gun that goes to the range with me each and everytime i go, regardless of what I plan on taking.
 
 Don't get me wrong I would love another reason in the future to buy a new rifle. [Linked Image]

I don't plan on an Alaska trip (for brown bear) for at least 3-4 years. I am hoping within the next two years to make it up there for a caribou hunt (which I'm pretty sure the .300 Wby should be plenty).
 
 Thanx
 
 George

I agree with the notion the 375 H&H is a better choice. It's felt recoil is less than the 340, and it has a bigger bullet. Also, ammo is available everywhere. However, like most everyone here will say, the 30 cal and up rifle that you can shoot best will be your best choice.
 
 BTW, I have become very skeptical of manufacturers claims, especially Wby's velocity claims.
 
 Blaine

I've had four 338 WM's and two 375 H&H's... since you already have a 300 WBY, I believe the 338 WM (and 340 WBY) aren't enough of a real step up over the 300 WBY... for a Brown Bear hunt I'd rather have a 375 H&H that's tuned and feeds perectly... you'd be set for the entire world with those two.
 
 AFP, I chrono'd a friend's 26" bbl'd 340 WBY... 3,020 fps with 250 grain factory ammo... that's scooting along!
 
 Brad

Anyone have any experience in converting a SUCK Mag Action to the Ultra Mag? Other than changing the magazine box, is there any other conversions necessary?
 
 2nd

I have done plenty of the them.
 if doing a 3006 or other LA with a standard bolt face, then the bolt face must be opened and small bit of milling must be done in the action to widen it. it is fine length wise.
 If it is to be done on a LA with a magnum bolt face, then only the mag box must be changed.
 
 There is a small differerance in the width of the opening into the action. The bolt rails are a few thousanths wider on the non magnum action VS a new 700 from the factory chambered in the RUM offerings. I mic'd them and now do a very little mill work on them to make them the same. I reallt dont know if it is neccesary, but I figure why not make em the same.
 
 Celt

Another convert to the Dark Side???? (grin)

Brad,
 
 That is is sreaming........My barrel was a 27 inch Shilen, and I tried it both with and without freebore. I was able to achieve 3000 fps with 250 grainers, but the accuracy just wasn't there and pressure were a tad high--it would give me 1.5" at best, and that was with Gamekings.
 
 Blaine

There is a great ballistics step from the .300 Weatherby to the .340 Wby.
 
 For example, a factory .300 Weatherby round with a 220-grain SP bullet produces 2,845 fps/3,954 foot-pound at the muzzle. At 400 yards, this bullet is traveling around 1,751 fps, and the retained energy is around 1,497 foot-pound. Sighted +1.7" at 100 yards, the bullet drops to -8.8" at 300 yards, and -26.4" at 400.
 
 A .340 factory round with a 250-grain SP bullet produces 2,965 fps/4,873 foot-pound at the muzzle. This bullet is traveling around 2,149 fps at 400 yards, and the retained energy is 2,563 foot-pound at that distance. Sighted +1.7" at 100 yards, the 250 grainer hits the 300-yard mark at -7.2", and -20.3" at 400 yards.
 
 Yes, one can argue that ballistics do not matter in real hunting conditions, but they can give you an idea on which one of the two has more punch. That said, in Alaska the .338WM outnumbers the .375 H&H by a wide margin. In fact, the most popular cartridges in Alaska are the .30-06, .300WM, and the .338WM.

Ray,
 
 Brad's point was that if you are going to make a step up in power from a 300 Wby, why not take a major step up? The 340 (like the 338 Win Mag and 338-06) is certaily a step up in killing power over a 30 caliber. But the 375 H&H gives you a much larger step up for no more recoil.
 
 Blaine

Blaine, exactly. Also, with the great bullets available today I've become doubtful that the 33's (as much as I love them) are really much of a step up from the 30's. I'll put my idea to the test this year as I put away the 338 WM and will take all my game this year with a 300 WSM loaded with 180 FailSafes at 2,900 fps. I'll probably use the 300 WSM for the next few years to try to gain some real field experience with it in order to be able to honestly evaluate it against my longtime favorite, the 338 WM. I'll report back on the subject in a few years!
 
 Brad

Boy I don't know,my 338Ultra/210XLC combo is MOST impressive. I like the Big30's,always have,but the 338Ultra is a whole 'nuther class of animal!
 
 It has MOJO that the Big30's never even dared dream of....................

I have NEVER seen an animal hit the ground like what I witnessed in AK this spring -- twice. The 338 Ultra with 210 XLC's pretty well slam big bears to the ground like I've never seen. Imagine an invisible freight train turning 500+ pounds of solid muscle and bone into a limp rag doll, hitting so hard the bear is whiplashed in the process. One of those events that make you look at the guy next to you and simply say "whoa!"
 
 I came home and bought one! I have 2 cow elk tags, a buck tag and a bear tag to try and fill in a few weeks. In a month, I'll be happy to report what the Ultra does to any of these critters that happen to cross my path ...

Muley Stalker,
 
 I wanted the 338 Ultra earlier this summer, after I already bought my 338 WM, but ended up in being coaxed into buying a 375 H&H instead. Maybe a few years down the road.
 
 Good luck on the hunts.

Stick,
 
 If you were going into the alders after a gut shot record book Brownie, would you rather have the 338 RUM with a 210 XLC of a 375 H&H with your choice (250 grainer?) of XLC/X bullet?
 
 Blaine

The end result would be the same. A good shot would seal the deal,a poor shot would call for some rapid bolt manipulation,in either chambering!
 
 The most fantastic Brownie footage I have been privvy to(one shot kills),has been way of the 338Ultra. It stands them up! None of my Ultra totin' pards has recovered a bullet(X's of course),to see how well they worked(grin).
 
 I see the 338Ultra as a magnificent "all arounder",if the guy toting it,can shoot it well. I know quite a few guys who have them and are very serious about eeking the most out them(practice,practice,practice). The consensus is that it is simply marvelous,in both it's Oooomph and flexibility.
 
 I concur wholeheartedly.......................

I wouldn't want either of the rifles with an X bullet.
 
 The .375 with a 300 grain Barnes or Woodleigh Soft. .458 better still. At that point you may need something to knock it back on it's butt and the bigger the bullet the better chance.
 
 While the X bullet seems to be the popular choice hear in Africa the jury is still out on them because of a tendency to act like a solid at times and not open up. A small hole clear through a large animal is just that. A small hole.
 
 In the latest Rifle Shooter Mag (got it today) Boddington posts factory ballistics of the RUM and the .340 250 grain NP and the Weatherby is about 100fps faster. Handloading would change that but if you have to buy a box, then which one would you want?

Stick,
 
 I'm pressing you a little on this because you are one of they guys who post here who has access to real experiences, like you described in your last post. My questions is not intended to be sarcastic or challenging, but are genuine requests for info.
 
 If I understand correctly, you are saying a 338 RUM (with the proper bullet) will stop a big brownie as quickly as a 375 H&H (also with the proper bullet)?
 
 How would the 338 RUM compare to the 340 Wby, 338 Win Mag, 338-06 in the same situation (Assuming peoper bullets and shot placement)?
 
 What about the 30 cals?
 
 Blaine

Proper bullet placement with any of the above cartridges/bullets equals a dead bear and dead is dead. I shot a brownie with a 338 winny first shot broke its neck where it meets the shoulders with a 250 gr. silvertip. The bear collapsed forward into the sand. The same results would happen with a lot of cartridge/bullet combos. Proper bullet placement doesn't create much controversy.pak

Blaine,
 
 I am a simple creature. I like great bullets,to strike in a great place. That means the X (my favorite) and breaking skeletal structure (I'm a bone breaker of the highest order,that is my preferred shot)or hopefully hitting CNS in your prior post.
 
 All of the chamberings you mention,are very good and arguements could be made for eternity. I can't produce any Science to weigh in favor of something,over another. All I have is gut instinct and that of course is very subjective.
 
 The 338Ultra with great bullets,slams stuff in a manner that is very,very convincing. I've always liked the 375H&H and have owned quite a few. I prefer the 375H&H and my favorite was the 378Wby,but I aborted it because it wasn't S/S. So I'm the last guy to cuss 375's in general and those prior mentioned,in particular.
 
 But when looking back and looking forward,the 338Ultra is just one hell of a sensational cartridge. It is not for everyone,but few things are. It amazes me to shoot something that accurate,of that diameter/weight,going that fast. It is an amazing combination of attributes and it is a Holy Terror on critters.
 
 My intent was not to twist arms,because as usual,my notions are rather different than most folks and I very much understand that. I've dabbled with a lot of "big" chamberings and only the 378Wby impresses me in the way the Ultra does.
 
 I'm thinking very seriously about building myself another 338Ultra,that is of lighter weight,for even greater utility......................

Stixk,
 
 If you are simple, then I am a non-argumentative guy [Linked Image]

.
 
 I too am impressed with accuracy and velocity of my 338 RUM. It shoots as well as many smaller chamberings, and should impart a lot of "whump." It is one of my favorite rifles. Of course, don't keep them anymore if they don't achieve a most favored status (MFS). I always thought of my 338 RUM as an "any range" elk chambering.
 
 I guess what weighs most on my mind is Mr Runyan's experience with "fast" (2700-2800 fps) 416s and 300 grain Barnes bullets on big bears. Randy Books verified this info to me on the phone last December. In the article I read he told how he had killed some 40 big Alaskan Brownies with 416/300 grain combo. He describes that combo as literally "flatteneing" these big critters with well placed body shots.
 
 I have heard and read of many shots from 30 caliber chamberings being less than impressive on these critters. The 338 bore (from 338-06 on up) stories I've come across have described reliable performance.
 
 Since all of my info is from "research," I was hoping you could share an experience or two on how a couple of these chamberings work in comparision to each other. I certainly don't see any of these as bad choices, but they do vary in the degree of specialization.
 
 My "gut" feel--which is based solely on research--is that the bigger the bullet (of proper construction), of decent velocity and being well placed, the more satisfactory the results. I also see a point of dimishing returns, and the 338 bore may well be that point.
 
 However, my "gut feel" here isn't anywhere nearly as valid as yours in this area. Now I can tell you a 300 grain 416 caliber bullet with a MV of 2750 really messes up a hog..............
 
 Of course, all this will hopefully give Avagadro some perspective on what rifle he should buy next. I know from personal experience a 375 H&H recoils significantly less than a 338 RUM. Based on my "gut feel," I believe a 375 H&H will be better on big bears and Moose (not to mention Cape Buffalo) than would a 338 bore chambering. Therefore, it makes sense to me for him to get a 375 H&H. The 338 RUM is not an extremely common chambering outside of us rifle loonies here. I personally bought 500 pieces of brass to make sure I'd always have some if the 338 RUM never caught on. The 338 RUM takes some getting used to, where the 375 H&H is a pussycat.
 
 However, based on your last post, it seems that you have seen ALL these chamberings work well. If that is the case, then I guess Avagadro should just pick the one that seems the "coolest" to him personally.
 
 Blaine

Ya' know, I keep going over this same argument with myself all the time- "Self, don't you think you really NEED one of those new 338 RUM's to keep up with the other guys shooting critters all over God's green earth?" Then I keep trying to count all the times I've had a plain old .338 Win Mag fail on me when I've done my part.
 No matter how many times I try to count and no matter how many fingers, toes, and "other appendages" I count on, I still come up with ZERO! With 2 338's in my cabinet, I just can't convince myself that either one has let me down enough to go behind it's back and play with the bigger brother "just for fun".
 However, I will concede one thing to AFP's last sentence. Buying a gun just by "Cool factor" is definitely alright with me any time. In fact any reasonable justification for the latest whiz bang is okay with me as long as the kids aren't going hungry. [Linked Image]

- Sheister

Sheister,
 
 Is it still okay if the kids just go a little hungry?
 
 Blaine

Cool is coolest,when the coolest works best.
 
 That's cool!...............

Blaine-
 
 Hypothetically speaking...
 
 if it were me and I had both with me a .375H&H and a .338Ultra stuffed with 210 X's and a big beautiful black bear appeared in front of me at 310 yards...I'd definately choose the .338 Ultra!
 
 ...hypothetically speaking of course because who would have both rifles with them?
 
 [Linked Image]

I think I have the world covered with my .338 Win. Mag. and my .375 H&H, especially everything that Alaska has to offer. I have yet to take my .375 H&H bear hunting with me.

Spike wrote...
 
 <blockquote>In reply to:<hr>if it were me and I had both with me a .375H&H and a .338Ultra stuffed with 210 X's and a big beautiful black bear appeared in front of me at 310 yards...I'd definately choose the .338 Ultra!<hr></blockquote>
 
 At those ranges, I can see the preference for the 338RUM, but that's the only reason.
 
 Let's face it, using the bullets of equal construction, at velocities which result in complete penetration (and most likely an exit wound) there is no reason the larger caliber would not be a better choice.
 
 The 210gr .338 "X" bullet has a S.D. of .263 and a B.C. of .471.
 
 In .375 caliber, the 250gr "X" bullet is listed as S.D. of .254 and the B.C. is .450. Slightly worse numbers than the 210gr .338 bullet. But, at 270grs, the .375 bullet is listed at an S.D. of .275 and the B.C. is .503. Those numbers 'beat' the .338 bullet.
 
 I'm not into the number game myself, but I know some of you quote them frequently. Just thought I'd look them up and post them here.
 
 It may be possible, to bring the 338RUMs great velocity advantage into the equation, and there is something to that, but remember these bullets are going completely through the animals, so not all that 'energy' is being used.
 
 In fact, I'd venture to say that in the pure 'charging bear stopping mode' it may better for a bullet not to pass completely through the bear. In the 'stopper' mode, a blood trail means nothing. Having the bullet break as much bone as possible, dumping 100% of it's energy into the animal, and ending up lodged under the far side hide may be the best possible result.
 
 That might make an interesting debate?
 
 Just for more info, I'll mention again the details of my brown bear hunt a couple weeks ago. My buddy shot the bear with a 338 Win Mag loaded with 230gr Fail Safes (factory load) from about 90-100 yards. I suspect that woud be near equal to 338RUM velocities at 300 yards?
 
 That bullet entered the bears left eye socket, traveled through the head (missing the brain), part of the lower jaw, the neck, into the chest area, through the body, and ended up buried in the right rear leg. No major bones hit. The bear was still standing when I shot a second later. Although it had turned 90 degrees to it's left, and was looking to escape into the nearby treeline.
 
 While it's probably more due to it's injuries than anything else... When it was hit in the chest with a .416 370gr bullet at a measely 2100fps (or so) it hit the ground immediately. That bullet did exactly what I described above. It dumped all that energy into the body and 'stopped' that bear in it's tracks.
 
 Don't get the wrong idea guys! I also want a super-duper' 338 caliber rifle for black bear hunting. But in my own opinion, there's still no substitute for cubic inches (or big bore bullets) when it comes to knocking these critters down right now.
 
 Now that I've stirred up the hornets nest, I think I'll run for cover! [Linked Image]

BW,
 
 What condition was the skull in after skinning that hoss? Was it messed up pretty bad from the bullets path?

Spike,
 
 I guess a guy needs a Caddy,so as to have the Ultimate Iron at his immediate disposal?!!? That's funny.
 
 Long story short,I already gutted one of my 375H&H Ackleys. That thought would had never crossed my mind,UNTIL I built my 338Ultra and saw what she'd do........................

Stick, what do your 338 UM's weigh? I'm curious. Being another simple soul (sure!) I don't like my rigs to weigh over 8.5 lbs "all-up" (this would include 375's). I can't imagine a 338 UM's recoil being anything but obnoxious in a rifle of less than 9 lbs... what's your take on weight in a kicker like the 338 RUM?
 
 Brad

Well guys,
 
 I've been reading these posts and learning a great deal. Let me set the record straight ... I'm a single graduate student and have no children that will go hungry. I enjoy having nice rifles that shoot accurate and just by dumb luck have been able to fall into three which I like a lot and got great deals on. My Weatherby Sporter (.300 WBY MAG), Tikka Continetal (.22-250), and my newest arrival the Beretta Mato (7mm Rem Mag). All purchased new and less than $500 (except the Weatherby which was at $700). For the next 3 years rifles in that price range are the best I'm going to do. So with that said, now everyone knows my kids won't starve. [Linked Image]

As far as cool goes .... wouldn't be real cool to own a .338-.378 WBY?? Not many of those floating around. I kicked the idea of "building" a .338 WM from the point of getting a cheap on in ADL format and going from there. But Rem doesn't make an ADL that big ... only the BDL's .... now that SUCKS [Linked Image]

. Relplace parts slowly stock, trigger, barrel and such .... but at the same time having a rifle that could always be taken to the range. I fear I do not know near enough about this trade to attempt just buying an action and going it from there. But I do have two local gun shops that are real good (IMO) and probably get help there. Actually the building interests me the most ... now that would be cool to tell others ... "I built it [Linked Image]

" Reading these posts has me looking into the .375 H&H. Not much out there in .375 that is at a reasonable price (my definition (<$600).
 
 But then again I'm not in any real hurry. Gives me stuff to think about.
 
 Once again thanx for all the great input!!
 
 George

Avagadro- What's field are you pursuing in grad school? Just curious. I'm chasing down an MS in ecology.

Why mess around? You can get a CZ-550 416 rigby for ~$650. Being as the 416 Weatherby is essentially a belted 416 Rigby, you can load this up to truly insane levels of mojo, me thinks 300 gr @ 3000 fps, and .416" before expanding!

I'm in the Analytical Chemistry PhD program at Texas A&M working in the area of Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry (SIMS).
 
 I went and looked at a CZ the other day (it was a 30-06) I thought the trigger was horrible ... can they be worked to remove the creep? The stock was really crude ... but it did have decent wood that I feel I could refinish and make pretty nice. Or perhaps (may the god's tradition strike me down) put a nice synthetic on it. Do any of the companies make tupperware for this rifle? How do they shoot?
 
 Just curious
 
 George

The CZ's have a single set trigger. Try pushing the trigger forward to set it, then see how you like the "hair trigger" release.
 
 Plastic is available for them, but I have never investigated them, as I have an aversion to plastic stocked rifles, though I did just purchase a Benneli Nova, so perhaps I'm a bit of a hypocrit.
 
 All I've heard is that the CZ's are accurate to very accurate. As I recall, one 416 owner shot a 1/4 moa group with his.
 
 To the original thread, I'd take a 375 H&H over a hot 33 bore for big bears. It really depends on where you are hunting as to long range shots, but I can think of many more good reasons to shoot inside 250 yds then past that distance. I can also see a 375 being a more conservative choice then a 33, and the H&H being more pleasant to to shoot then a hot 33.

I tried the single set trigger ... It took 3 tries before either me or the salesman could get it to work. Overall it seemed like a pretty good rifle (except the trigger). If I knew those could be worked I think it would be a worthwhile rifle to me to look into.
 
 Thanx
 
 George

Is there an ADL action that would work to make a .338 WM? ...is the .300 WM action be the same and could it be used to build a .338 WM ?
 
 Thanx
 
 George

Yes, the actions are the same.
 
 2nd

Can a person buy just an action new, if so what is the cost as compared to a whole new ADL rifle? Or do you have to get lucky and find someone who is looking to sell that type of action?
 
 Thanx
 
 George

Brad,
 
 My current 338Ultra is on a Sako L61R action,wears a 26" long #4contour barrel and is in a heavy filled Sako Hunter stock by McMillan with a Decelerator. Up top is a Leupie 3.5-10x. I purposely built the rifle heavy,to negate recoil. It is a beautiful blueprint,served my initial purposes well and has me doting on the chambering due to that rifle's excellence.
 
 However,I'm thinkin' about another on a S/S SUCKS,dropping at least one contour and bobbing it to 25". It will go in a "regular" filled Remington Classic pattern by McMillan and wear a 6x42mm in DD's. I figure that will shave nearly 2lbs total weight.
 
 My intent for the second 338Ultra,isn't for high volume Varminting(grin). It is would be a strictly "Meat and Taters" Business Rifle,of the highest order. No frills,no fanfare and I doubt a whole helluva' lot of fun at the bench(grin).
 
 I abhor brakes and gangly gizmos,dangling from my rifles. I WON'T do it. So if it comes to my trading a bloody nose,for a well placed poke of Mucho MOJO and Oooomph,I'll happily ante up that asking price(it's been proved). In reality,I expect it to be very "do-able". My lightest 375H&H Ackley goes sub 8lbs all up and is not that unpleasant to bang around with,even while employing Full Throttle 270's(it's regular diet).
 
 I expect the lighter weight Ultra will recoil faster,but won't be much "harder",if that makes sense.?. My light Six-Bits is perfectly balanced and I sorta roll with it and she is FAR from abusive and I'm just a lil' feller! Hell,even guys from Montana can make due with it(grin).
 
 Balance and stock fit/design are critical factors,as you well know. A scope of MORE than "adequate" eye-relief is also a very major component in the friendliness category,in my humble opinion. The Remington Classic stock pattern by McMillan and the Leupie 6x42mm,are my bread and butter. I'm heap big familiar with both. In harmony,they suit me best,for dealing with substantial recoil levels.
 
 So undoubtedly,a lightish 338Ultra is a very potent beast,on both ends. I'll grant that. But I am thinking,that with my shooting numerous Factory 700's so chambered,my Hybrid HAMMER will not be any more abusive,in a diret comparison. Plus it should grant an even higher level of average accuracy expectation,will be tailored to fit me ergonomically and boast the best stock on the planet.
 
 I'd HATE to be somethin caught betwixt that 6x42's crosswires! Damn!!..I think I just talked myself into a new rifle!(grin).............

2nd,
 
 Would the 300WM ADL action also work If I tried to build a .375 H&H?
 
 George

Yep...................

Mr. 2nd and Mr. Stick,
 
 You may very soon be getting many questions on how a man goes about building a good quality rifle. So perhaps now I'll apologize for the plethora of stupid questions coming your way in the future.
 
 George

In my opinion,the FIRST rule of building a GREAT rifle,is to KNOW what you want.
 
 Without doubt,my tastes/quirks,suit me best. I'd assume you to know that,which suits you best.
 
 Translation? There are few rules,governing the building of a splendid rifle. Though it will most certainly hedge your bet,if you have a good idea regarding what feels best to you,in the area of stock design. From there,you have much latitude.
 
 After you have an idea of which sort of stock design you prefer,you can start to visualize balance/overall weight. There is much leeway in those avenues.
 
 My advice is to grab hold of as many rifles as possible and to weigh all those attributes,you deem as pleasing. The trick is to add as many attributes as possible,without going crazy in overall weight(my opinion,all).
 
 The MOST bang for the buck,comes from research and the crafting of a good plan. Pay close attention,to those things that weigh heavily upon YOU and chase your dreams from there.
 
 Good shoppin'............

Stick, Why dont you just go a little bigger and get a
 375 RUM? I'm seeing how people compare the 338 WM and
 375 H&H and how the 375 is better. Seems the same
 logic would apply.

Avagadro,
 
 With an ADL in 300 Win or 7mm Rem mag, the conversion to a 338 Win mag, 340 Wby, or 375 H&H is extremely easy. Conversion to the 338 RUM is a little more difficult, as work to the feed fails and possibly follower will need to be accomplished.
 
 Please do me a favor. Actually shoot one of these things before you build a 338 RUM. With the 338 Win mag and the 375 H&H, go ahead--they recoil easy enough to not be a problem (unless you build a super-light rifle). The 338 RUM is a different animal.
 
 I am currently stationed at Randolph AFB, and live at the NE corner of San Antonio. If you can get down here, I'll let you shoot my rifles, which include a 338 RUM and a 416 Rem Mag. I'm not sure how long the drive is, my guess is around 4 hours. I'd even put you up overnight. I'll be on an elk hunt from 16 Oct to 1 Nov, but after that we could probably hook up. My e-mail: painterb@sbcglobal.net
 
 Blaine

Spike,
 
 If it were only a black bear I'd be just as happy with my 30-06..........
 
 The hypothetic situation was being 30 yds away from a 1200 lb Alaskan Brown bear.
 
 Blaine

Stick, good post... thanks. There was a guy at Saeed's whom I took to task as he maintained a 338 WM was no different recoil-wise than a 338 RUM... Lord. Some newbie who may be thinking of moving up from a 243 might read such rubbish and actually buy one! With your passion and experience you could almost "convert" me to a 338 RUM except I know I wouldn't handle the recoil well in an 8lb rifle... your light 375 Ackley... now that's intriguing. Actually, my next project will probably be a SS M70 with a Douglas #3 in 375 H&H, stocked in a High-Tech and scoped with a 1x4 Leo... should come in at 8 lbs "all-up."
 
 Hope you have a good season... antelope opens here Sunday, can't wait.
 
 Brad

The 375RUM has appealed to me,since it's inception. Prior to that,I dreamt of such a cartridge(as I had nothing but GREAT experiences with my 378Wby).
 
 But the beauty of the 338Ultra in my opinion,is it's ability to bring EVERYTHING to the court. It has ample projectile diameter,coupled with ample weight/SD/BC and delivers the above at very impressive velocities.
 
 In your comparison,the 375H&H is a bigger cartridge(more capacity). The 338Win is a shortened H&H offering. The 340Wby is a more realistic comparison,as it utilizies brass of very nearly the same length and couples it with a free-bored throat. That keeps it's Ooomph on an even keel,in my opinion.
 
 The Ultra brings even more to the table,as it offers even more capacity and does so in "standard" throating geometry. Plus it is sans a belt(another plus,in my opinion).
 
 Soooooo,when weighing the 338Ultra vs. the 375Ultra,I believe I will take the reduced diameter,at a much inflated velocity,as a more versatile all around chambering................

If the .375 was "better" than the .338, then I would assume that most hunters in Alaska would have .375's. In Alaska, the .338WM outnumbers the .375 H&H by a wide margin, but it does not mean that the .338 is "better." Both a great cartridges, and whichever of the two one is most proficient with should be the best one.
 
 The reason why the .338WM is so popular is because most hunters are not hunting bears alone, but instead moose, bears sometimes, caribou, deer, and other Alaska game. The .338 has become much of an "all around" cartridge.
 
 Also, .33 bullets can keep their own against those for the .375, except that while .33 bullets stop at 300 grains, heavier ones for the .375 are available. The .375 with its greater powder capacity does its best with 300 grain bullets and up, while the .338WM does its best up to 300-grain bullets.
 
 About shot placement: I remember reading a story from a couple of hunters that shot a brown bear several times with a .338WM and a .375 H&H, then had to track the bear after it ran. They finally killed the bear as it charged them, but it took a couple of fast shots with both rifles. There was no problem with either rifle, just that the hunters may not have hit the right spot until the end.
 
 Then in the late '60's there was a guy from Anchorage who killed three grizzly bears with five shots from his .338WM. He stepped too close to four grizzlies feeding on a moose carcass and they charged. One of the bears ran, and he killed two of the bears with two shots, and shot one on the shoulder to turn it. This one he killed at point blank with a shot through the head after reloading his rifle. I bet this guy would have done the same with any other rifle of equal power, but the main difference in the outcome was the way he reacted during the charge, and his proficiency with that rifle.

Blaine,
 
 Thanks for the offer. I will take you up on it sometime in November whenever it would be easiest on you.
 
 Good Luck with the elk hunt.
 
 George

Avagadro,
 
 Listen to what Stick tells you, he knows the Rem 700. I personally have a .300 RUM and a .375 RUM. I haven't breached the gap yet with a .338 RUM, but hopefully it will be coming in the near future.
 
 As for the .375 RUM, I LOVE IT. I have taken a bull elk and a bull oryx with mine, and the performance has been stellar. The recoil (mine is the LSS) is very high, and I find myself bleefing from my right index finger everytime that I shoot it. (The bottom of the bolt handle scrapes the skin off).
 
 As far as being practical, the .338 RUM is far more so. But, who says that we have to be practical as rifle fanatics?
 
 2nd

Avagadro,
 
 Send me aen e-mail around 1 Nov, and we'll see if we can't find a time....
 
 Blaine

Gentlemen,
 
 When looking for a donor rifle for building a .338 WM or .340 WBY, which actions should i be looking at?
 
 From what I know so far, either the .300 WM or .7mm RM both will work. Is there any other chamberins that I can be looking for?
 
 Thanx
 
 George

Regarding a 700 donor action,any long action belted magnum chambering(.532" boltface),will work without modifications. That means 264Win,7mmRemmag,300Winny,etc.
 
 If a Sako extractor on the 700 appeals to you,than any standard long action chambering will suffice(.473" boltface). That means 25-06,270,280,30-06,etc.
 
 Lots of donor choices available to you,in either route...............

Stick,
 
 How does one get a 700 with a Sako extractor? Have it installed or is it a whole new bolt assembly? Is one type (.532 vs. .473) inherently stronger than the other?
 
 George