I am contemplating my daugther's first rifle.
Background:
Petite seven year old.
Hunting: Central Texas Axis Deer, South Texas White Tail, and South Texas Hog. Shots: 80-100 yards -senderos with a rest.
I want to get her a rifle she can use until she is a young adult. I am contemplating a 308 because it would be best for Axis. I figure we can practice with Remington's managed recoil rounds and maybe put a regular load in on the big day - or maybe just stick to managed recoil. The other option is to get a 243 and just be sure to use a very high quality bullet. The advantage of the 243 is we all (most of us) recognize it as gentle on the shooter and adequate on deer-sized game.
I am leaning towards the 308-managed recoil option because she can grow into the caliber and use it on a wider array of game. It may also be advantageous because it could be more effective if there is less than perfect shot placement (we are talking about a kid here).
Please give input.
I realize the "rifle for my daughter" inquiry has been posted many times, but I would like input on the two caliber scenearios I described.
Let's keep the discussion to these two rounds. I prefer these classic rounds and don't want a 7-08 or 260. Thanks.

I have found that kids that practice with an adult who is knowledgeable with firearms are some of the best and most disciplined shooters out there.
That being said I would suggest to go ahead with the .243 with good premium bullets and practice, practice, practice.
I think with her small stature even when she gets older and decides that the "managed recoil" days are over, even the .308 in a lightweight rifle is going to kick her around, which she might not enjoy and wish for a lighter kicking rifle.

A light weight 308win may have too much recoil with full power loads even after she grows up.On the other hand,the 243 is not a great choice for larger game.

I know that you don't want a 7mm-08,but with managed recoil loads,it would be the most logical choice.

Axis deer aren't that big or that tough.

243 or 260 would be fine. I'd lean toward the 260 if she's going to shoot bigger game. Put a good decelerator or limbsaver on it, and it should be fine.

I agree with stubblejumper. The 7mm-08 with Managed Recoil loads would be the ticket.

I agree with you guys but,.........

First thing I thought of also.
My nine year will be using a .243 this year for Central TX deer & pigs ( with cut down stock and Pachmayr Decelerator pad), but as soon as possible she will be moving up to a 25-06, 260, or 7/08 for hunting S. TX.
Those .270 managed recoil loads shoot great in my Stevens.

stumpy

I would go with the .243, good ammo, and not look back.

243 would be my choice.

Have your daughter use a gun thats suitable for her size and ability. At 7 yo its hardly a .22 LR. As she grows change her rifle to whats suitable.

As for the CF a .243 would be ideal for a long time. When she gets big enough she can use heavier calibers. The .243 would be ideal for varmints as well and suitable with 55 gr bullets started slower for a while. When I was a kid I shot small animals. Thats how we usually start.

I've set my own daughter up with a Model 70 stainless 308 in a shortened Fwt stock. I've worked up some 130 Hornady Spire points and Bluedot loads that are amazingly accurate and she shoots them quite well, being very mild on the shoulder but should prove quite lethal out to 200 yards. Her shots will be within 100 yards.

Here's a picture of the target I shot while working up a load for her:

The really amazing thing about this load is the gun had been a .75" shooter for all the years I've had it. The accuracy had gone south recently with 1.5-2" groups being the norm. I was set to re-barrel the gun but since she won't be needing or wanting to run any full powered loads through it anytime soon, I can put that on hold for a while while she is in her Bluedot stage. Once she gets out of it, I may be in it, so that little 308 may never get a new barrel.

RickyD,

That sounds like a great setup and very accurate.
Will those bullets expand at a "Bluedot" loads? I have heard from the factory the Managed Recoil Loads from Remington are loaded with thinner jacketed bullets that expand at super slow speeds.

stumpy

So you�re buying a rifle for your daughter but don�t want to consider the cartridges that might be best suited for HER?

At a petite 7, a .243 Win would get my vote over a .308, even with reduced recoil loads.

If it were my kid I�d probably get a .260 or 7mm-08 and go for reduced recoil loads.

Regardless of which caliber you choose I would not buy a rifle with less than a 22 inch barrel. The 20 inch barrels on youth models create a lot of muzzle blast and that tends to scare kids more than the recoil.

This is what I would do: Get the .243 and start off with 55 grain bullets or, better yet, reduced loads. If you scare your kid in the beginning, she may never want to hunt or shoot again. Seven years old is very young and she is most likely going to be very scared to shoot a high powered rifle. It's not a chance I would want to take and there is no need to rush her. You might even consider going with a .223. My 12 year old daughter was scared to shoot the youth model .243 I bought her so I bought her a little single shot .223 and though she was a little scared of it, she shot it very well. She is going to shoot the .243 this year but she still tells me she is scared. By the way, she dropped a five point in his tracks at about 65 yards with the little .223 last year.

If you rush her, or scare her, you may lose her forever.

I'd say definately .243. I bought my son a Winchester model 70 compact in .243, and topped it off with a Luepold 4x in Burris rings. Even at 10 years old, the recoil was starting to get to him if he shot much more than a few rounds. Not enough to stop him from shooting, but enough that he started to develop a flinch. I added a limbsaver pad for practice sessions, and that solved the problem.

At your daughter's age and build, were it me, I'd go with the .243 with a nice recoil pad like a limbsaver, some good hearing protection, and work up some light loads. Should be .223 like in felt recoil to her, and she'll be able to shoot it all day long.

Come hunting season, load up some nice 100 gr. partitions. If she ever gets a critter in her sights, she'll never feel the recoil as we all know. As long as she doesn't get scoped, it's all good.

While I haven't chron'ed these loads yet, I don't believe they will have any problems expanding properly at Bluedot velocities which should run around 2500 fps. We'll do some chrono work later this fall after our unique monsoon season is over. I believe a heavier bullet, such as a 150, would expand quite well too.

Thanks. I haven't tried any "reduced" loads on the pigs yet.

"Regardless of which caliber you choose I would not buy a rifle with less than a 22 inch barrel. The 20 inch barrels on youth models create a lot of muzzle blast and that tends to scare kids more than the recoil. "

Great advice.

stumpy

I really dose not matter a whole lot, as long as the rifle fits her and is not to heavy to hold. This is a 7 year old child, so she may not be able to hold the weight of a normal rifle. You may and to do some looking around for a suitable rifle. For some reason Kids get left out in this regard, they get handed guns that don't fit or are not user friendly and we then wonder why the young to take to the sport?

A Savage bolt would be ideal with the barrel nut. Start with the .243 and if she feels like more power would be needed then buy a swap barrel.

I'm not sure why you won't consider other less "classic" cartridges. If it's classic you want then the 7x57 takes the cake.

FWIW, my .270 Win. with the Managed Recoil loads has less perceived recoil to me than my .243 with standard ammo. Muzzle blast alone from a .243 is a beatch.

Petite 7 year old girl!! 223 REM, Federal 60 gr Partition.

6.5X55 is a classic round. Of the 2 I'd go with the .243.

I have found the 308 (and 270) managed recoil loads to be very effective. They do not have the muzzle blast of the 243.
We have used this load on hogs over 300 pounds and whitetails at 175 pounds.
It does give you a real deer rifle when she gets older.

The 223 with TBBC also worked well.

If you are going to buy two rifles in the long run the 223 and 308 is a better option than a 243 now and a .....(take your pick later)...

The 308 Mangaed recoil loads are nothing to sneeze at.


Also this summer my 12 year old took a 308 to South Africa and made shots of 300, 325 yards, and 455 yards using standard loads
What is the price of confidence in dropping a shell in a gun you have gotten used to having in your hands over the years.
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Blazer guy makes a good point I had not thought of. The muzzle blast from the managed recoil rounds might be even less than that of the .243. He also makes a good point about possibly starting with the .223 and then moving up to the 308 with the managed recoil rounds.

Blazer guy, does anybody manufacture .223 rounds with the TBBC or would I have to load that myself? Great picture by the way, your little man is too cute.

Here's my choice. I just loaded up some reduced loads for my 9 yo son in a 270Win. H4895 under a 130gr Hornady SP. Load shoots very well.

Info can be obtained on the Hodgdon website. I haven't chrono'd them yet, but plan on doing it this weekend. I am guessing they will be running about 2400 fps. But I'll see.

Pleasant, mild and will do the job.

But to answer your original question, I would go with the 308 as bigger diameter kills better and higher velocity kills farther.

Rifle fit is much more important than the actual cartridge.

Interesting question as I'm in the process of getting my son his first centerfire rifle. I've had him shoot reduced recoil loads in my wifes .308 and he seems to handle them fairly well. That said I'm debating getting him a .243. The .243 can be dialed right down to powder puff levels, the .308 while mild with reduced loads is hardly without recoil.

The .223 while not one of your options is probably the best choice for a petite seven y/o. What we percieve as mild recoil can still be quite jarring to a child. A .223 with good bullets will kill any deer, and it's just about the most fun centerfire at the range. I've loaded 35 gr v-max with blue dot for almost recoil less loads, and amazingly small groups.

Hmm, I might just go .223 for the boy and get him a .308 when he turns 16.

I know some adults that got .243's as a child and still shoot them as adults..

Thanks for all the great input guys. You raise some excellent points. I am willing to listen to reason, ie., the 7mm-08 is a viable option.
The best advice I believe is to avoid ruining the kids perspective with giving her too much gun. Maybe .223 now and 308 later is the way to go.

Hey SoTexasH. I am from San Isidro (live in S.A. now). The S. TX hunting I am referring to is the San Isidro/La Gloria area. Glad the ranches down there are getting some rain -sorry the poor folks in some urban areas are getting flooded.

I would go with the .308, no question. If you reload, you can take it down to sub .30-30 levels for her to learn on, and go up a bit more for hunting game out to 100-150 yards. With light loads, the .308 is going to have the advantage on game over the .243 with light loads. With .30-30 to .300 Savage level loads, she can kill just about anything out to around 200 yards By the time she has mastered that, you can go to full-powered loads fit for anything in the lower 48.

If you are willing to expand your caliber choices, things like .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, 7-08 or it's ballistic clone 7x57, .260 or it's clone 6.5x55, or any of the other cartridges in that class would work as well. I really dislike .243 for younger hunters, as it is not as forgiving when it comes to less than ideal shots that younger shooters sometimes take. Especially with light loads and smaller bullets. With a bit more bullet mass and diameter, you stand a better chance of taking the animal rather than wounding it. I know .243 is the favorite of many, but I think it requires a bit more skill to use. That takes it out of the beginner's catagory for me. Again, that is just my opinion. My 6 year old is still shooting with her crickett, and has tried a .43 mauser a few times from the bench. I'll move her up to something a bit bigger in a couple of years. My guess at this point is it will probably be something in the .30-30 class. .35 Remington maybe. After that, we will see what she likes. I have all kinds of old toys for her and her sister to choose from. We'll see what she picks when we get that far.

-Mb

It was never mentioned if you were a handloader or not..
Blue Dot is strictly a handloader proposition...

As far as Rem's Managed Recoil loads, they are pretty simple to duplicate... in any caliber you want to duplicate them in...

all they are doing is using a lighter bullet in any given caliber and then using IMR 4198 or a powder that looks just like it with the burn rate just like it...

Like in the 06, they use a 125 grain PSP Corelokt, and in the 270, they use a 110 grainer SP instead of a 130 grain bullet...

both are using 4198.. ( I have disassembled most of them, shot them over a chronograph and then reassembled handloads and found that they are easily duplicated...)

RL 7 works well also and is typically a little more accurate..

as far as bullets opening up at the slower speeds... that is simple...

Ballistic Tips are a good choice... ( Seafire JR is hunting with a 30/06 for the first time this year... his load is going to be 25 grains of SR 4759, with a 125 grain Ballistic Tip or Speer 125 gr TNT.... we've also played with the 110 grain vMax with great results.. and the 110 grain Sierra HP)...

"Varmint" style bullets work great in larger calibers, when the MV is in the 2800 fps range or less...at lower velocities they don't come apart as easily...

When I hunt in a local suburban area around town here, I frequently hunt with a win Featherweight chambered in 7 x 57.. I run two loads, depending upon 'Mood'.. since the distances we are looking at are 100 to 150 yds anyway...

one is 25 grains of SR 4759 with a 110 HP Speer, or a 115 grain TNT Speer... other times I'll substitute Blue Dot 22.5 to 24 grains of it..

I've taken 2 blacktail with that caliber with a load of Blue Dot and using a 100 grain HP Sierra.. one at 100 yds or so.. the other at 150...

both went down as fast as if hit by an 06, with a 180 grain RN...

folks need to think outside the box...

with a lot of this reduced load, or managed reooil in marketing hype, all we are doing is duplicating the old 30/30 style power, recoil but with a lot more accuracy and in a bolt gun...

as I alway say.. tailor your loads to your game, the environment you are hunting and the size of the shooter/hunter...
one does not need a 500 yd load, with 3500 ft lbs of energy, when 90% of all deer are taken within 100 yds and 99% of them are taken at 200 yds or under..

a 243 with a 95 gr Ballistic tip, with an MV of 2400 fps, took a pretty decent mule deer buck at about 250 yds, according to a thank you note some guy from Colorado or New Mexico sent me a season or two ago...

zero the scope at 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, 2250 fps MV will put you dead on at 200 yds, and 3.5 inches low at 230 yds with about any spitzer bullet.. if ya don't believe me, check out trajectory charts in some of the reload manuals.. regardless of caliber...

heck I can shoot a hot 338 Mag all day long... but why do I need to? I don't need to prove my masuclinity to myself or my buddies

so if you handload, pick any caliber ya want.. then just handload accordingly...

one local 10 yr, old I loaded for last season, shot a good buck at 60 yds or so with a 30/30.. the load was 10 grains of Unique and a 170 grain lead bullet...his dad said the buck went bank/flop...MV on that was about 1200 fps or less..

That would be my choice over the 243 or 308. But I was sticking with what you originally picked, so as not to take the discussion off topic.
Get a rifle that fits her in this caliber, and your daughter is set for life.

Fit is much more important, but she will grow and rifle fit will change.

I would pretty much agree with that. 7-08 is a versitile caliber that can be used for just about anything out there. You can load it down like you can the .308, but get better ballistics with the more efficient 7mm bullets. And it is easier to find ammo for than the .260, which would be one of my other choices. As far as I am concerned, anything between .25-.28 caliber in that class would be good for younger or smaller shooters. Smaller than that, you loose some effectiveness downrange. Larger, you get a bit more recoil as the bullet weight goes up. But I would still pick the larger bullet over lighter recoil if you are sticking with the .243 vs. the .308.

-Mb

In a 243, the 85g tripple shock bullet does not kick much at all. This is an awesome bullet to use on deer and hogs.

I agree, but again, you need a bit more control to use it effectively. Think of it as the difference between a scalpel and a hatchet. You can cut something with either one, but the little one requires more finesse.

-Mb

At the range last week a young fellow and his 5'-3",115 lb. wife were shooting her cut down and 18" barreled 700 in 308.
I handled it a little. It was very well balanced, but very light.
They were shooting the factory reduced loads and she was flinching and jerking the trigger. Bad groups with a bad muzzle blast.
That said, I had two of my grandsons with me. One has shot since he was 5 and is almost 11. The other is 12 and just getting started.
The 10 y.o. shoots a 243 with up to 75 gr V-Max at full speed.
Has a 223 and does well with a Hornet.The 12 y.o. is not ready for the 243, even the bull barreled one.
If she has not shot a rimfire alot. Then get her one and wait a few years to hunt big game. Work her up to a center fire.
I am not flameing, JMO.

I have to agree with the posters who have recommended a 223, especially as you have said she is a PETITE 7YR OLD. Maybe you could find a first generation Contender(or NEF/Rossi) with a bantam youth stock in 223 or 30-30. She has to be able to hold and fire the gun in relative comfort or she won't want to do it again.

The TBBC's in 223 are only sold by Federal in their tactical line(LEO) at the moment. I bought a few boxes when Midway discontinued it in 2006 for $9 a box. ammunitiontogo.com currently has it in the 63(?) gr loading online for sale.

Thanks ccd. I was looking for that info regarding the TBBC's.

Let's look at the criteria:
* You want something mild enough for her to enjoy shooting
* You want it to kill deer
* You want her to be able to use it as she grows and keep it

Now the constraints:
* She isn't going to be shooting huge deer
* She isn't going to be shooting over 100 yards
* You are going to be with her in a stand
* She will have a rest

My suggestion:
* Buy a longer barrel, light rifle, like a 22-inch M-700 Mountain Rifle to reduce muzzle blast. Put on a cheap take-off second-hand youth stock for now.
* Sight it in for 100 yards
* .243 has a lot of muzzle blast, so you will need to download it a bit and shoot a 95-gr to 105-gr bullet, so...

* ... you might as well get a .223 and shoot a TBBC Federal load. DNR officers use them for deer control.

Therefore:
* Get a 7mm-08 and load the 120-gr Ballistic Tip at 2,500 fps

* Get the .308 and load the 125-gr BT, Speer, or the flat-nosed HP made for the .30-30, down to 2,500 fps.

* Load up some 110-gr practice rounds in either rifle to 2,500 fps and practice at 100 yards and closer.

* Put in ear plugs when shooting at game.

"all they are doing is using a lighter bullet" . . .

Actually a lighter bullet built to expand quicker. Check this sales comment:
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-Recoil.asp

I have not tried one on game yet, but they are very accurate.


stumpy

Personally ... 308Win with a reduced load using a 110gr to 125gr at 2200fps. Fired fom a sporter weight rifle, 22" barrel, shortened stock with Decelerator pad. NEVER to be fired without a rest, I'd carry the rifle, so would be inclined to weight it with lead in the butt and forearm to reduce recoil even further. I'd be burning up 22RF ammunition though with them at every opportunity.
Cheers...
Con

I like both rounds but IMHO the 30.30 in a lever action is about as good a gun as there is for a youngster. I started with one and I will start both my son and daughter on the same gun. Heck, I still take at least one deer per year with the gun myself. It really is hard to improve on the design and cal. combination.

Don't forget she is 7 and petite. I would venture to guess that most of us were not shooting high powered rifles when we were seven. Most of us probably started at 12 years of age or older. I really think the larger calibers are just going to be too much for her. Heck, what does she weigh, 50 pounds or so?