Was in the local emporium today and saw something quite unique.
Here's the bolt out of an ATR in 308 that has fired less than a box of factory ammo.
![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/laketrouter/IMGP2429.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/laketrouter/IMGP2424.jpg)
The bolt body is not threaded into the bolt head. It is pressed in.
Worse, the bolt body is splined, but the head is smooth!
![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/laketrouter/IMGP2427.jpg)
The customer is upset, but the dealer here is really choked, as he has sold a few, and now is concerned about his customers having this happen in the field.
Anyone else seen this?
Ted
If that isn't a poor design I don't know what is. Actually, I'm not sure that even classifies as a design.
Sorry, I don't have any experience with the ATR and likely never will. Thanks for sharing the pics.
My son has killed a bunch of deer with his.
Nothing that JB Weld can't fix...
Nothing that JB Weld can't fix...
Or a Hobart...
They should change that moniker from ATR to LD (Lawyers' Delight)..
not surprising from a cheap manufacturer, why not spend the extra hundred and get a used remington? or better yet a savage 110
Disgusting!
So, is this one of those bolt designs where it might be possible to close the bolt but the lugs not be engaged? The thought scares the chit out of me.
Press fit?, no threads?, not even a pin?
Disgusting!
So, is this one of those bolt designs where it might be possible to close the bolt but the lugs not be engaged? The thought scares the chit out of me.
I was thinking same. By all means, skimp on the part most likely to get the user killed. I heard from several local folks about a guy who was seriously injured last year by a similar rifle coming apart in his face.
I recently had someone ask me about one of the new "tricky" bolt guns on the market. I told him that I didn't know anybody who had one, but that a good used 700, 70, or 77 could be found for the same price. Not to say there are no new advances to be made with rifles, but I'm leery of some of these rigs.
Repeat after me, "It's only a Raptor, it's only a Raptor, it's only a Raptor". Why would anybody buy a Raptor, even a 3rd generation Raptor with Mossberg's superior manufacturing and QC, when Marlin is selling the excellent XL-7s for only a few $$ more?
Jeff
Friggin amazing to me as the Mossberg 494 (the re-engineered model 94) seems like a very well made rifle (with ugly wood).
Mossberg started with a good, proven, foundation upon which to build when they copied the Winchester 94. Not so when they bought the rights to "improve" the basic Raptor design.
Jeff
I'm just glad you didn't buy it Ted...
Heck, I want the Mossberg Raptors to fail, as I have bet a steak dinner that they wouldn't last for 10 years and they have been going longer than I would have expected.
Jeff
Hmm. I don't think it's supposed to come apart like that
I'm thinking if it backed out as you "closed the bolt" so the the bolt lugs didn't engage, that it wouldn't be able to fire either. I could be wrong there. It does look, for sure, like it lacks something where reliability is concerned.
At least it isn't one of those deals where you close the bolt and the handle comes off leaving an unfired live round in the chamber with no way to get it out other than to fire it. (Remington) That's slightly disconcerting when it happens too; that or not being certain whether one was in the pipe as the handle lies loose in one's hand.
I'm just glad you didn't buy it Ted...
I was there buying a Marlin XL7, just to give one a try, when the dealer showed me the gun.
Ted
Sounds good Ted.308 Win the new one?
Well, you get what you pay for, I guess.
and I nearly bought one....
It is a really good thing that the stocks and such are such an abomination in looks and function that they will sell VERY few of these chunks of crap. Again, and has been stated by more than one here, WHY would one consider such a piece when there are so many really good and proven (and decent looking) rifles out there?
Yukoner
Has anyone sent a copy of this photo to Mossberg for an explanation. It seems like they should issue a recall to fix this. Yeah I almost bought one for one of my sons but found a used Ruger.
Yukoner
I almost bought one for one of my sons but found a used Ruger.
ED, Ya done good there. And I see that you have a 25 Roy speedmaster.... you seem to have developed a fine taste for good rifles!
Was in the local emporium today and saw something quite unique.
Here's the bolt out of an ATR in 308 that has fired less than a box of factory ammo.
The bolt body is not threaded into the bolt head. It is pressed in.
Worse, the bolt body is splined, but the head is smooth!
The customer is upset, but the dealer here is really choked, as he has sold a few, and now is concerned about his customers having this happen in the field.
Anyone else seen this?
Ted
Any wonder why those bolts will fly back into the shooter's skull?
Um, no thanks, though I can think of a few folks I'd wish that would use such..............
I would guess the bolt handle is intended to be silver soldered in place just like that of the Winchester M70 which features a similar joint. It looks like somebody omitted the silver solder and the joint was tight enough it got through QC. Not a particularly good system but it would be strong enough if the silver solder was there.
With this design, the potential does exist for the rifle to fire with the locking lugs not engaged should this joint fail when closing the bolt. That is, unless there is a backup system to prevent this. I have not looked closely at one of these rifles so can't say for sure. GD
I used to own,and used a raptor for a few years to take a few bucks with.It had so many "bad" features I sold it at a huge loss and have been happy ever since.Picked up a charles daly 98 mauser to replace it.
I would guess the bolt handle is intended to be silver soldered in place just like that of the Winchester M70 which features a similar joint. It looks like somebody omitted the silver solder and the joint was tight enough it got through QC. Not a particularly good system but it would be strong enough if the silver solder was there.
With this design, the potential does exist for the rifle to fire with the locking lugs not engaged should this joint fail when closing the bolt. That is, unless there is a backup system to prevent this. I have not looked closely at one of these rifles so can't say for sure. GD
Kept comming back to this post. You say the model 70 Winchester is done the same way? Trying to figure if this is a manufacturing fault or a design flaw.. seems like there should be splines in both parts to mate and lock. I don't like it and hope Winchester doesn't do the same thing.
Thanks,
Geo
Scary this could happen to a Mossberg but even more scary that others use the same design.
g
according to greg rodriguez, mossy sold 30k of those rifles last year.
-Matt
Maybe a bolt recall in order. If I owned one I would be asking questions.
g
Sounds good Ted.308 Win the new one?
No, got the new Marlin XL7 in 30-06, just to see what all the fuss is about.
It impressed me enough to order one in 270. Supposed to be here this week.
Ted
Maybe a bolt recall in order. If I owned one I would be asking questions.
g
The dealer is doing exactly that. Apparently they want to see the rifle........
No kidding, eh?
yeah i bet they do. see that it doesn't let the news out.
-Matt
Like every thing else in life, you DO get what you pay for.
see that it doesn't let the news out.
-Matt
If you are reading this, the news is already out. Can't hide from 24hour!!
Fast Ed
The Winchester is similarly done but with a difference. On the Mossberg, the cocking cam is part of the handle/base. On the Winchester. the cocking cam is cut through the bolt handle base and the bolt body. Practically speaking, this means two things. First; the joint on the winchester is in the middle of the cocking cam while the Mossberg cam is wholly in the bolt handle base (advantage; Mossberg). Second; because the cam is cut into both pieces, should the joint fail while closing the bolt, the Winchester cannot fire with an unlocked bolt (advantage; Winchester.
The browning A-Bolt design isn't too different from the Mossberg except that the handle is pinned in place rather than being silver soldered (or not, in this case!).
There is no dounbt in my mind that the BEST bolt handle attachment on commonly available factory rifles belongs to the Ruger 77. The one piece bolt is just plain better. When I make a bolt, I make the cocking cam and the extraction cam integral with the bolt and weld on the handle.
As I mentioned before, if the silver solder joint is properly done, the Mossberg system would be sufficiently strong that failure would be virtually impossible. If the silver soldering step is improperly done or omitted altogether, things are not so good! GD
If I'm not mistaken only the post-64 Model 70 is like the Mossberg ATR. THe Ruger is a good design, but it's still a Ruger. I prefer an accurate rifle.
is there an actual news article we can read bout these incidents?
i have owned 2.
the fiorst was a little 308 number that was cut down to 18" and had an A2 flashhider on it. it would smack golf balls at 200 yards.
the second i bought NIB w/ a scope installed. on the second shot the extractor broke and t took over 3 weeks to get a replacemnt from mossturd.
WOW!! I'm at a loss for words! If I owned one of those rifles I would try to get a refund from Mossberg! If that didn't work out I would cut it up and throw it in the dumpster so no one could get hurt with it!! Whats up with Mossberg? Are they just ignoring this? This is going to blow up in their face!! No pun intended!
The Winchester is similarly done but with a difference. Second; because the cam is cut into both pieces, should the joint fail while closing the bolt, the Winchester cannot fire with an unlocked bolt (advantage; Winchester.
+1
I was once running my hunting loads through a Win Model 70, when to my surprise the bolt handle ended up in my hand with a live round in the chamber. The solder joint failed. I drove out to the range figuring I would just pull the trigger and mail it back to Winchester. No way a Winchester fires with the bolt unlocked. Had to take it to the gunsmith with a live round down the tube. He removed the round and sent the gun back to Winchester for repairs.
in answer to what Mossberg is doing--they are simply throwing rotton tomatoes on the victim--digging up dirt that he had a small--and legal amount of alcohol in his system at the time (per the hospital records at most he had .03 when the impairment rating is .08)--asking any enemys he has about him--talking to his ex-wife
3 100 ATRs all owned or used a matter of days
all 3 exploded
We will see what the jury says in April
I dont claim to know much about the functioning of the Mossberg 100 ATR--other than what i have painfully aborbed from my experts that are forced to repeat themselves to me because of my slow learning curve without any background in this area --but greydog looks like he is right on point, and it helps me to see the written email he did in understanding the difference between the Mossberg Bolt Action and the other models of bolt action rifles
Any input from you gun gurus is greatly appreciated
Well, if Mossberg is just looking for why the rifles caused injury I don't blame them, as there could be factors we don't know about. On the other hand, if it's a design/part failure, they need to be held responsible for putting a flawed product of this nature on the market.
Anyone heard any more about this?
Attorney Holt?
Art?
Ted
This is must read thread. I sent it along to all my shooting friends and called a few others.
Bump...
Now how about those Mossberg Maverick pump shotguns for $170 ??? lol
A friend was asking me about them the other day.
The maverick is a stripped down version of the model 500. They are fine and a proven design. I have 2 model 500s a 12 and 20. They perform nicely and are easy to maintain.
On the other hand I'm really disappointed in how this is being handled by Mossberg. I hope they change their approach to the problem otherwise I will not be buying anymore of their products.
Did mossberg modify the bolt or recall the rifles? What happened to the lawsuit and attorney Holt?
Pics like that make me think...."Ruger,Mauser 98, pre 64 M70"....
Good grief, what crap!
in answer to what Mossberg is doing--they are simply throwing rotton tomatoes on the victim--digging up dirt that he had a small--and legal amount of alcohol in his system at the time (per the hospital records at most he had .03 when the impairment rating is .08)--asking any enemys he has about him--talking to his ex-wife
3 100 ATRs all owned or used a matter of days
all 3 exploded
We will see what the jury says in April
Any news?
I am late to this discussion. Ms Holt is representing a client who was injured and her search for information is completely ethical. Thirty odd years ago I represented a 16 year old who lost an eye shooting a Marlin 39A. A case head burst because of insufficient support from the bolt face and brass and gas came back out the rear of the breech. This was long before the internet, I ran ads in Shotgun News and found similar accidents had occurred with this rifle. Eventually the case came on for a two week trial in Federal court in Manhattan and there was a substantial recovery.
Yes, but people are wondering what has happened as Attorney Holt has not posted since Jan. 14.
Looks like the case was dismissed on 3/26/09
Cotterill vs O.F. Mossberg
rember back a remington 710 was fit this way plus barrel and few more parts if i rember correct when they first came out
I would have thought the case, if properly presented, was winnable. GD
I would have thought the case, if properly presented, was winnable. GD
An attorney who posts here offered his opinion in the Gun Writer section of the Forum...
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3288632/17
I don't feel I'm above anything, nor do I make alot of money. But these cheap rifles never work, their junk, and gone in less than few years. You made absolutely no investment and will be left with nothing of value. If I can't afford atleast a Savage mid grade rifle, I'm not buying one.