ok men. it seems i'll have to wait a year for a south carolina made win model 70 super grade, or i can get a sako m85 immediately. the cost isn't an issue. the caliber i want isn't an issue. my concerns are fit, finish, accuracy, reliability, and a rifle that will last through many deer and elk hunts for the next 20 years. which would you select and why?
i look forward to your replies. thanks

For the same money, buy yourself a standard grade pre-64 Winchester Model 70 that's in great mechanical condition and have a rifle that twice as good as either of those.

thanks for the suggestion, but i prefer to keep the focus on either the m70 mentioned or a sako 85. thanks again.

Sako!
1). ATM you don't really know what you're going to get with a new FN Model 70.
2). Will put 5 into 1".
3). One-piece bolt.
4). Dovetail mounting system.
5). 5 action lengths.
6). Slick-ass action & feeding!
7). 60 degree bolt lift.
8). Trigger-guard made from a solid billet of steel.
9). "EVERY rifle that comes off the assembly line is proof tested with two proof loads. These are about 25% above normal factory pressures. Each rifle is then checked with a go-no-go headspace gauge to ensure integrity has not been compromised".

I could add more but I would bore you

Yep, if it has to be a choice between those two, then the Sako is the way to go. Only Sako I have keeps all shots under six tenths of an inch at a hundred yards with its favorite factory load.

Sakos have a rep for great accuarcy, although my only one was disappointing. Anyways, M70s have a cult following due to history, class factor, ect.... I am one of those. M70 for me.

I don't know if that class factor/history thing extends to the newer M70s. The trigger design is untested, and they seem to be having quality control issues over all. For class and history, you have to look for a pre-64 (or at least one of the Classic series from before the doors closed on the Winchester plant), but I digress.

I have both a Custom shop Model 70, and two Sako 85's.

Either are an excellent choice, and both have pro's and con's.

Accuracy - Sako 85 is easier to make and keep accurate

Magazine - Sako 85 kicks butt, the M70 is a no go

Safety safeness - M70 takes it big time - the slide forward on the Sako 85 is the rifles only weakness

Bolt "smoothness" - Sako creams the M70

Controll feed wise - The M70 has a edge here, but the sako is darn close to it, the only difference is the claw vs. the clamp - which results in the sako not catching at the first half inch of the bolt starting forward.

So the question really is what is the most important variables for you.

If it's the magazine, accuracy, and smooth action it's the Sako 85.

If it's the Safety and totally secure feeding it's the Model 70.

Remember you can always have a smith put a new barrel on either so I believe it falls to the action as the ultimate answer.

FOR ME - I go Sako, I just wish there was a M70 styple safety on them.

Spot

I've always wanted a Sako Deluxe. The one I fell in love with was the 75 model but I don't think the 85 is too much different.

The new Winchesters I've looked at have impressed the heck out of me with thier fit and finish.

I would probably opt for the Sako but only if it was the deluxe. The others just don't do it for me.

Terry

PS. I've owner neither so take it for what it's worth

hotsoup,

You will have to sort through the features of each of your choices and decide which rifle pleases you. As for myself I have a Sako (L61R), a battery of M70's and other makes.

I will take the M70 design over the Sako anyday. The M70 safety is three position and it even locks the firing pin. The Sako safety, as I understand it, is only two positions. This is unacceptable to me.

I like the control round feed of the M70 and the Sako is not CRF according to this report. Sako 85 not even CRF!

"...As I see it, the extractor isn’t wide enough to engage case rims without gravity assist and, unlike the big Mauser 98 and Winchester M70 claw extractors, doesn’t grasp the cartridge rim securely enough for true controlled-round feeding. "

Since you have not mentioned the caliber that you would choose nor the way that the rifle would be used there are other factors that come into play. Overall I would buy the rifle made in the USA first.

Model 70 for me, however agree with looking for an older one. I have yet to handle new Super Grade hard to make a decision sight unseen. But I dont care for Sakos to start with.

Sako 85

You won't be dissappointed by a Sako 85.

especially if you've been lifting a lot of weights...grin

Dober

You're just mad cause you couldn't 'em to shoot right....grin

Burnage..

I would go with the M-70 unless you can pick up and old L-579 Series sako..The L series of Sakos were wonderful rifles, but Sako has gone down hill since that time, they got cheap so the bean counters could make more money.

I'm sooo glad I picked up a down hill, cheep AIII..

laughin'


Someone tell me again why Pre64's are better than the 'recent' M70's?????grin

Or a down hill 75 finnlight that shoots like this..

Or if you really want to go slumming try an 85.


Obligatory fencepost pic. I know Ray will appreciate the quality sticker. Happy Birthday BTW!


Can you say classy.....laughin'!




168TTSX/3030fps @100 last Tuesday.

I blame the wind....grin



MOAish out to 330 yards that trip as well.

Cheep POS!!

Tell me about it!

one reason i like to ask questions here is because there is always some humor in the responses. you folks make this gun stuff enjoyable (most times), so thanks.

i had my mind set on a super grade (probably 270win) from south carolina (i actually like the new trigger system), and they only come in wood/blue, which is what i prefer. however, after 2 conversations with the win folks in south carolina, i'll have to wait until they have assembled and shipped all the 08's before they start on the 09's. one guy in sc said don't even look for an 09' till late august at the absolute earliest. so i don't want to wait till aug to even order the thing. thus my interest in a sako 85.

i've owned and hunted with lots of rems, several m70's, and many others. i think i know what i'm getting with a new m70, but have never owned a sako. i've read pleaty about sako's but just wanted some opinions from folks who either have first hand knowledge or like to give opinions regarding my limited choices. thanks and have a great day.

What model/cartridge 85 do you have in mind?

sam - the model would be the 85, wood/blue, in 270 win, although i could settle for an 06 almost as easily. i'm a meat and potatoes fella.

You need a silver scope for the total pimp rig!

Nothing wrong with meat and potatoes bud!

Yah - and happy Birfday Ray.. You've done more in hunting than I can ever dream of, I'm just having some needed fun this morning..

P I M P!




SUPER PIMP!




Talk to you boys later.

Sako 85, you won't be disappointed...Have you seen the Bavarian models?

Nice...

http://www.sako.fi/sako85models.php?bavarian

If it were me, and money wasn't an issue, I'd get both. If it were me, and money was an issue, I'd get the Winchester, because I can't afford a Sako 85. Tikkas are for guys like me.

Man I just hate those cheap rifles that shoot like that!

Reminds me of a buddy I have who shoots a heavy barrel Savage 110 in .308 with a synthetic stock. Out to about 300 yards thats how his shoots. We shoot at cheap candy suckers stuck into the ground and he can hit the sticks their on at 100 yards. With scope he has less than $300 in that rifle! It wears a cheap Tasco 3x9 and he is deadly with it. He uses it on everything.

SamOlsen, very cool pic with the sticker on the rifle on the fence post!

Spoken like someone that never had one . I guess the bean conters have been making the Model 70's better for less money. I guess the bean counters didn't get involved with that exclusive 2 piece model 70 bolt assembly.

Yes any Sako over any model 70



No they are three position safeties but you wouldn't know that since you never owned one.

Ray, you're being silly! You need to come to Auburn, Alabama and have a sleep-over with me and the fam so you can play with my 85!! We can watch movies!

I humbly believe more work goes into the newer Sakos than the older ones! Talking about lifting weights, those older Sakos (My favorites are the A models) are pretty dang stout.

To me, the safety on the Sako is its weakness. But, I'd still choose Sako.

If you like rifles you need to tinker with to get any accuracy out of them, if you like to gamble with quality issues, stay away from the Sako 85, you'll be bored. My 85 in 6.5X55 is so boring it would probably be the last bolt action center fire to go if I were getting rid of stuff.

thanks men. i'm gonna try to find (and handle) a sako 85 in 270win next week. i appreciate the responses.

I've owned a bunch of SAKOs over the years and only had one that wouldn't shoot reliably. It was a 264 Win Mag with a drifting zero. Never could get it right.
The Winchester is still an unknown quantity. Quality control(accuracy) seems to be a problem for FN.
Recently I started to sell an old L61r. Then I asked myself "Why do you want to sell the most accurate 30.06 you ever owned?" I just sold an 85 in 375 H&H. A friend wanted it for Africa. What is all the hype in the past 10 years about CRF? Push feed works and reliably too. Reminds me of the Hurrah about the Remington extractor. Statistically it is more reliable than the SAKO mod so many people went to.
I think the 85s are over priced but they are very nice and accurate.

What cracks me up are the people that NEED a CRF action for a deer rifle.

Well, since the fools at Winnie decided to replace the 'perfect' trigger with a complete unknown, and as much as I, of all people, hate to say this; buy the M85...

Unless you're ok with a pre-FN M70 SG, then I'd buy that over the Sako every day of the year...

Just my .02

I hear Sako's safety is it's weakness. Enlighten me?

I guess when people say that they mean that the Sako safety doesn't block the firing pin.

It does in the rear position, so what's the problem?

Me? M70. because I'm prejudiced.

M70: And it has nothing to do with being prejudiced.

I love the M70. It's the perfect hunting rifle.

Loves a strong word, but real close to perfect. However could stand to slim down a little.

I agree but you need to cross a Pre-64 with a CRF-Classic & then you will have something very special & near perfect!

Does it? I didn't know.

Yes

If you were talking pre 64 it would be a tough call but compared to new m70's I'd be grabbing the sako for sure.Right now my rifles are half pre 64 70's and half sakos...if a model 70 lover like Redneck picks sako, thats saying something!

Red neck.
have you handeld a new model 70 yet ? I have a pre 64 and 2 classics.
I had no complaints about the trigger, except that after i learned to tune them myself, i was a bit pissed I had paid someone else to do it in the past.
But My impession of the new trigger from having dry fired mabye 5 of them is quite good.
And these were out of the box, I think they are adjustable.
Not a thing wrong with a sako 85 either.
I have seen a couple with real nice looking wood. and the ballance is terific.
But all the new model 70s I have seen have been featherweights in either 30,06 or .270.
I want to handle a short action. a .308 in either the fetherweight or the new coyote light.
...tj3006

Whilst talking about the "improved trigger"/X-trigger . I've said it once & I'll say it again. Winchester stuffed up big time here. If Winchester were really serious about a new revamped Model 70, they would of kept the original trigger design! And if I had my way. I would of pushed for a one-piece bolt(pre-64 design & shape) & ALL STEEL bottom-metal. So what we would have would be a Classic design action, Pre-64 bolt & barrel(cut-rifled) with the original & PROVEN trigger.

If they had kept everything the same except the post 64 Quality I would go down to my local dealer and buy one, but no they change one of the 70's strongpoints. Those beancounters did it so 2 gun designs can share the same trigger.

Me too. Beancounters ha ha ha I like that. How true

Winchester had two great designs to work with, Pre-64 & CRF Classic. So if these beancounters would of put logic forth they could of come up with a truly great design. Or at least just duplicate the CRF Classic if cost$ was a major factor. But no, they took one of best features & tossed it into the scrap bin.

Is there a chance of an aftermarket trigger to be available or has the action been modded around the X-trigger?

i have read that the trigger from a classic will not fit (work) in the sc version. don't know, just read it. sad in a way cause win needed something to catch the rest of the field in sales. who knows - the sc win may indeed sell well. i do believe the sc versions will be a winner based upon those i have handled and the few smiths i have spoke with who have handled, disassembled, and shot the sc version. i think the trigger issue only affects folks who are hard core win fans. time will tell (it always does).

Yep. A couple, in fact. Then you have three excellent rifles..
They can be 'adjusted' by the owner.. But a true tigger job needs to be done by a pro - and you WILL notice the difference..
They feel ok. On average, probably a lot better than the pre-FNs and they are adjustable.. However, it's a closed, sealed unit. When (not if) something goes wrong, it's a trip back to the service center for repair/replacement.. According to the article, there's 12 parts to this new trigger, whereas the original has 7 (trigger, pin, spring, 3 nuts, post) and is open for cleaning, lubrication, inspection, etc... What happens to this new and improved closed unit when you're hunting in dusty, dirty conditions and grit gets in that trigger group? What happens when your hunt starts out in cold rain and it turns to freezing rain and it gets in that trigger? You're DONE.. With the old unit, the owner can disassemble the parts, clean and lube and reinstall in minutes..

Leave it to Browning to turn a simple, outstanding unit into a much more complicated, user-unfriendly item that, when it goes south, will require a factory fix.. This whole thing might have been suggested by lawyers and bean counters; surely not by hunters and shooters.. JMHO, but the changes should have been dedicated to quality barrels instead of messing with the trigger. To date, in the local store anyway, sales of the 'new' M70 have not occured and this is a place that sells hundreds of guns/month.. Those of us most familiar with the m70 concept are not fooled by the invention of this new trigger.. But it's very early in the production and sales.. Time will tell if the rifle becomes accepted.. It will also tell if this new trigger will actually stand up to rugged hunting conditions.. As far as that goes, I'm holding my breath..

I'm hoping an aftermarket will develop for fitting a different trigger to the new FN M70 that will allow the owner to get back to a more simple, user friendly design..


Added: Did you happen to read the article in Amer. Rifleman on the new M70? Didja happen to note the average groups they were getting? Over 2.25"!!! Maybe they just got a lemon.. But if I were the dudes making these at FN I would have been horrified at those results.. You think, after reading that article by all the members of the NRA, that hunters are going to run out and buy a rifle that may (operative word there) give them THAT kind of accuracy?? That's fine if you're hunting buffalo at 50 yards but if you're having to take a shot at a deer at 300 with a crummy barrel evidenced on that test rifle, well, good luck.. Most guys I know who have a rifle that shoots anything wider than a 1" group at 100 yards either limit their shots to 100 yards or less, trade the rifle for something better or rebarrel in order to have a bullet go where it's supposed to..

Interesting times ahead for Winchester & their new owners . And as RN stated, the big test will be how well the new trigger holds up in dust, dirt & the wet over time???
I will most likely give one a go but I would of been allot happier with an unchanged NH style M70 only with better quality control.

I have a number of Model 70's including some pretty decent custom rifles. I also have several Sako's. I tend to Hunt with the Sako's quite a bit more, especially the Finnlites.

Out of the Box I think that the Sako's are much better rifles than the typical Model 70. The just work without doing anything to them. They are smooth, accurate and rarely have any problems.

Model 70's have been made into the finest hunting works of art ever known but out of the box they can require a good bit of work to get them as accurate and smooth as a new Sako.

I'd recommend that you go with the Sako. If you really want a model 70 you'll know why you do...................DJ

How are you liking the silver and grey 85 DJ? It was another .270WSM isn't it?



They have an 85 Finnlight in .25-06 at the local shop. If I had extra rifle money it would be coming home. Great rifles.

A Sako 85 is a known...the new 70's not so much. I have a few of the 75's and one 85. I like the 75's better than the 85's tho most don't. I would go with the 85, but then again I've never even owned a winchester anything from any time period.

I'm no rifle expert but can appreciate quality when I'm smart enough to notice it.

I hope the new M70's are great too.

I shot a decent deer with it last year:





I like it as a good all weather stand gun. It shoots well, maybe 3/4 MOA or so but to be honest one of my Kimber 8400 270 WSM's outshoots it but that particular Kimber is an absolute drill. I prefer the new 85 style mag release over the 75's. All in all an excellent rifle but probably the next rifle I buy will be a 85 Finnlite in 270WSM or 7 WSM. The Finnlite would be a better carrying around all day rifle vs the heavier Grey Wolf. For deer and antelope I think it's tough to beat the 270 WSM.

My next Model 70 is a 7x57 that will be the twin to my 9,3x62 in front. I just haven't had a chance to work on it for quite a while yet:




I also have a Pre-64 action barrel to 375 H&H but I need to do some more metal work on it before I even start the stockwork. Might be a while depending on my work schedule.........................................DJ

You got some nice planes and Japanese chisels there...

I knew about the 9-3 but I didn't know about your 7x57 project, WOW what a cracker. Very nice! You have all the toys