I'm thinking about trading my 300 wsm in Remington 700 SPS Stainless for a plain jain WBY Vanguard in 300 wby. The 300 wsm shoots well and I like it, but the wby is bigger and badder Ever since I picked up my 257 wby it seems I've got Weatherby on the brain. The wby is at a local sporting goods store and haven't asked what kind of deal I would get for trade yet

And?

.........and should I do that or not? I need to be talked into it or talked out of it

How does the Remington handle fatboy?

Dots?

Unless you really just want a .300 Weatherby...

A WSM has got to be a fair bit cheaper to shoot as well.

What are ya using the rifle for?

Stick with the .300 WSM.

Get what's on your brain. You can always trade back one day. But as you know, weatherby ammo aint cheap and I'll bet that 300 wby will kick the crap out of you. Not near as much fun to shoot in my opinion. But none of that matters if you really want one. If the remington is in as new condition you might get 350 out of it on trade. If you really want to go that route, sell it here on the classifieds, you'd get more for it, imho.

Brain-

Dunno if you've ever stood behind a well-charged 300 Roy.
If you haven't, you might consider doing so before making that move.

I'd much prefer the 300WSM that you have but there's something to be said for shiny and new if it make your socks go up and down.

....squirrels and such Actually deer for the most part, but I keep telling myself I'm going elk hunting one of these days.
I have no complaints about the 300 wsm. It shoots great and it feeds just fine. I'm just looking. I have a feeling weather I have the 300 wsm or the 300 wby either wont get used a whole lot because I have a 257 wby that will probably get alot of attention. But, a guy should always have a big 30 caliber in the cabinet just in case he finds himself elk hunting.

From the dark recesses of our souls we all KNOW the 300 Weatherby is the quintisential "300 Magnum".....but Skane is right when it comes to recoil.

I have owned a few of both,and the 300 WSM is a gentler, easier shooting round in a somewhat handier package. I have never pulled off a shot with a 300 Weatherby that I could not have made with the WSM....but if it's the "perception" you want,....well... the Weatherby makes the chronograph really ring

The WSM is maybe the more practical choice if you relish shootability, portability, light weight, etc.

I've been lustin for a 300Wby for a while now myself so I know where your coming from. I've shot my buds Vanguard and it's quite a bit easier on my shoulder then my 300RUM in a lighter M700. Brass is the only difference in handloading cost and that's not enough to change my mind. In the end you've got to use what your excited about.....get the Roy!


Brett

Brain-

If you want a thumper in a Roy, don't even mess with the 300 - get the 340....<grin>

Get the .300 Wby, don't look back. Greatest .300 out there. Stuff it full of 7828, magnum primer, and 180 grain Nosler Partition and you're set.

The WSMs are an oxymoron - if you want magnum performance, get a real one. If you need a light rifle - get a standard cartridge with a light 22" barrel.

I find an 8 3/4# .300 Wby a great hunting rifle. A 180 grain .308 bullet at 3200 fps is among the flattest tragectories out there.

Dance wif who brung ya!! Keep the one you got!!

As a side note...my buds 24" Roy hangs with my 26" RUM pretty well. We both shoot 168TTSX...the Ultra will do 3450fps and the Roy puts out 3325fps.


Brett

The WSM seems to be more than enough gun for your needs, and the Remington seems to be more than satisfying the requirements for a good hunting rifle. The weatherby will take more powder, more $$$ brass, will be a longer, heaver action, and certainly won't kill elk or deer any deader than the WSM.

I agree with Skane, if you're going to step up to a weatherby, then go big or go home, skip the .300 and move straight up to the .340!

Or, just get a REALLY useful rifle, and trade in the WSM for a Tikka in 7RM

backwoodsbrian,

On one hand guns are something that we can desire and then, yes, possess them. They don't cost all that much, don't argue etc.

As to the rifle I am not a fan of Remington 700's for hunting. They have a so so safety that does not lock the bolt or the firing pin for that matter. The 700 has that tiny springy extractor and is only push feed. Its bolt handle is brazed on.

I much prefer the M70, R77-2 and Kimber designs for hunting. They all have good safeties, CRF and good extractors.

As to the cartridge choice do what you want. I would get the 300 WSM in a Kimber 8400.

The price for 100 ct remington 300 wsm brass is about 10 bucks cheaper than remington 300 wby brass...not enough difference to matter.
SKane, I can't get the .340 in the Vanguard! I would have to go to the mark V and alot more money!!! Otherwise, I agree with your logic

.308 win

There is absolutely no logic behind what one wants in a gun when you already have one, or several, that do what is required. If you are a looney then keep the 300 WSM and buy the 300 Wby.

just do it....you know you want to

Now you're talking!

BINGO brother Rich!

i can attest to the fact that the "Roy" will slam your poor shoulder! i am 6'4" 260lbs. and i can only shoot mine a half dozen times or so before i'm hurtin! i have a 700 BDL S.S. with a synthetic that absorbs no recoil at all. i am really considering having it ported this spring. also the dang thing is expensive to shoot, and reload, for that matter.

Limbsavers

I can take the weatherby from prone in a MkV, but who wants to when you can shoot an equally effective cartridge, but one that kicks you much less?

If you wanna tell people you shoot a 300WBY then get it. But, it won't do anything the WSM won't do, with the exception of impress you on the chrono. No elk is gonna be able to tell the difference between a 180gr bullet from a 300WSM or 300WBY. Besides, in all reality, you don't need a 300 to kill an elk anyway. All the really hard chore elk hunters I know shoot 270's, 30-06's, or 7mm's. But then again, those guys have shot more elk then most of us ever will. And I have the feeling they would have no problem killing just as many elk with a 257 wby and a 120gr partition comming out of the barrel at 3300fps.. But then again, theres no room for common sense on the Fire. You really do need the 300WBY in addition to your WSM and 257....

I own 2 300 WBYs one in a Vanguard and one in Mark V. I have shot the crap out the Vanguard. I also have the 300 WSM and I just don't like the cartridge. The Roy will give you an honest 3200 fps with the 180s and I don't find the recoil bad at all. I'll burn 2 or 3 boxes a session and I'm not sore after it. I have used a lot of the Remington brass and have gotten several loadings out of it, so brass cost is not that much different. Loading 80 grains + will eat a pound of powder quick! You can always load the WBY down to the WSM but can't load the WSM up to the Weatherby! I say go for it and get the real 300 magnum performance.

Get a 338Winnie ... would it be a simple rechamber? or is the winnie too broad at the shoulder?

Why don't you get a 308 Win for deer hunting and a 300 WBY "just in case" for elk?

I can't fathom shooting MN deer in the woods with a 300 Wby, but that's just me.

I had a 300 Weatherby Mark 5 and changed it to a 300 JARRETT AND COULD NOT BE HAPPIER.

A 300 Mag will flatten a deer DRT!



grin

At 50 yards, so will a 308 WIn... I've done it more than once!

so will a .308

PS, Sam... deer in the woods of MN are shot at under 100 yards, and usually a lot less than 100 yards... been there, done that. A 308 is north-woods whitetail poison par-excellence!

Couple things...

The 300 Wby will punish you considerably more, which may or may not be an issue.

Unless you load your own, you'll pay more for ammo, with less to pick from.

There's nothing the Wby will kill that the WSM won't.

Some might argue that the Remington is a superior rifle, too, and probably weighs less.

FWIW.

Sounds like the cottonwood riverbottoms back home. Of course there's a few big alfalfa fields in between.

Come on. Ya'll act like a 300 Roy is some shoulder mounted cannon or something and chews bits of ball joint with each trigger pull. I agree, it'll get your attention, but it's not painful. Mine's a Vanguard. I just loaded up some 165 Sierras tonight with 67 and 68 grs. of IMR4064. Should go around 2900 and 3000fps respectively. That's close to '06 velocities and these are Sierra book loads, from an old book mind you, as I don't have one of their new ones. I can run it hot or I can load it down. I choose to load down for whitetails and if I want I can charge it up to chase bigger critters or to flatten it out for open country hunting. It really is a versatile round. Is reported to be a superb candidate for 200gr. bullets.

David

The bad thing is , you are more or less trading a $500 rifle on a $400 rifle , and you are going to take a beating .

Funny , the 30wsm and the 300 Roy are the 2 300 cartridges that interest me , and I did quite a bit of shooting with both last year . The wsm in a synthetic stock weighs maybe a bit over 8lbs and shoots 180s around 3000 . The Roy is in a Vanguard with a laminate stock , weighs probably over 9lbs and shoots 200 s to 3000 .

Blindfolded and with muffs , there is no way I could tell you which gun I'm shooting . There just ain't that much difference in the kick.....take off the muffs , and the Roy definately has more blast .


To my notion , the plain Vanguard has a really evil feeling stock .


I like Brad's idea, 308 for whitetail , Roy for elk .


If there can be only one , if I was you I would stick with the WSM .

Look, this stuff is our hobby. Do what makes you happy and you have the most fun doing. If you really want the Weatherby buy it.

That being said there's no good logical reason to do it. You're trying to trade a more expensive gun for a cheaper one - you'll loose money on the deal.
Both guns shoot the same bullets, the Weatherby just shoots them 200fps faster (maybe only 125-150fps if you use RL-17 in the WSM). This means what? That ta bullet from the Weatherby hits with the same energy at 150 yds that the WSM hits it at 100? Maybe a 1/4" difference in drop? There's not much a difference in results but the Weatherby burns a lot more powder in a much heavier rifle to do it.
I have a couple 300 Weatherby's, they are nice guns and one of mine especially shoots very well. But it's just not a whole lot more gun than a 300 WSM in the field.

But like I said do what makes you happy. Logic and practicality shouldn't interfere with a true Gun nuts decisions! .......................DJ

Hobby? What hobby.

I am on a quest. Holy grail? Smoly Pail - I search for the ultimate all purpose rifle - I call it the Utility Rifle.
The rifle to end all rifle dicussions. Chambered in the cartridge to end all cartridge discussions, shooting the bullet to end all bullet discussions - the Barnes TSX.

How about that? Hobby. Right.

As for 300 WSM/300 Weatherby - man, its the same bulletts just couple fps faster. Really, get your self some itch to scratch.

Brian, you know your gonna get tha vanguard for $399. I'm sure I know the store you are talking about. I'm with the group that says keep the WSM & buy the 300 WBY. (if you can swing it)

If you find that you have completely fallen out of love with the WSM after shooting/hunting the wby then sell it.

You know I like my 300 WBY, of course mine might weigh a bit more than the vanguard� not sure, it would be close though. Vanguard has a lot of rise as well being a weatherby stock. I�m not sure that that does for recoil.

But I�ve handled your 300 WSM & I�ve handled the long action vanguards as well, I�d be willing to bet the vanguard is heavier than your 700. I don�t think recoil is going to be noticeable between the two.




Oh it works just fine, trust me

and yes of course so does the .308, I switch around quite a bit deer hunting in
MN, everything from .243 to 450 marlin. depending on how frustrated i am with the brown timber goats

.308 kills em, but the 300 WBY really, really kills em

i just thought of something Brian. do it! trade that 300 wsm now!! get the WBY!! (then you'll buy the dies & start loading, you could load some for me while you are at it )

Best reason I can think of to get the 300 Weatherby is that John Wayne, Elgin Gates,and Chuck Yager did not use a 300 WSM

The WBY wins HANDS DOWN every time for cool factor, no doubt about that.

Bob, I'm just going to lie in the weeds until you're ready to unload one of yours before I get a 300WBY....<grin>

Skane:Only have one 300 mag; the Weatherby. Think I will hang onto it

Dave, you wouldn't be referring to the great buck of 2005? The one that tried to outrun the mighty 300 wby and cartwheeled abruptly to his death? I keep thinking about that episode and that really makes me want a 300 wby of my own.
The truth is I really don't know that either 300 will get much use after getting my dream gun the 257 wby!! Especially now that I know it will shoot decent. I have a Timney trigger on it's way for it too.

Bob, you need to get another one.....*L*

Dave, Two steps ahead of you. Bulk brass gets alot cheaper when you divide by two

Does your WSM hold a good group? Seems to me that any rifle that shoots 3/4 inch or better groups should never be traded. 1 to 1.25 rifles are tolerable unless the are heavy varmint rigs. Anything over should be traded to those less particular.

Brian, my advice would be get to one of the vanguards as they are not that much money. Keep your WSM, put it up for a while and shoot your new 300 Weatherby vanguard. If you ever want to shoot something a little "less" you have your WSM. Then you could pick up one of the Conquest demo scopes that Cameraland offers or a new Leup. 2 x 7 VXII and your not into a huge rifle investment. Me I like the fat shoulder on the WSM, I size my brass just so that the my Kimber bolt closes and shoot a mild load of RL19 with 180 grain Hornady's, its my short action 30-06 improved, the brass lasts forever and it kills everything I point it at

Bachwoods,

If you thought that you would find a consensus to not buy a rifle you have came to the wrong place.

And if you get rid of the 300 WSM and replace it with a 300 Wea you will leave yourself with a unbelievable gap in your hunting rifle battery therefore you should part with the WSM and get a 7mm Wea and the 300 Wea then you will be able to get by for a year or two before you will need (and I do mean "need") to fill part of the gaps that are left.

Just buy a bigger safe and then fill it. I am sure it is the right way to go as I and many other here are operating with this theory and we are doing fine.

What ever you do please do not try and bring logic to the table. If logic enters your mind try to hide it at the board as it is a violation of the rules.

just another loony

8mmwapiti

Jimmyp,

whats your load for that "30-06 Improved" with the Hornady bullet?

Good points. 8mm too.

Yeah old lawn darts is the one I was thinking of, I think that was 2005. he's the one that flipped straight over backwards & landed on his rack forcing the points of his 8 point rack into the dirt like lawn darts dropped from a helicopter

I found him on the scene of his dirt nap laying on his back with all 4's in the air & his rack jammed hard into the dirt. grabbed him by the snout for leverage to pull his rack out of the dirt.

my best bang flop ever!

freaking awesome!!

there's dead, then there's 300WBY dead.

when you say "dead is dead" it's like saying an orgasm is an orgasm...

Some are better no?

I agree completely. Our opinions match on what is the greatest .300.


I disagree completely.

If you want magnum performance without the "extra" offered by a 300 Win mag or 300 Weatherby mag, then get a 300 WSM.

Where is the cut-off for real magnums? 300 Wby Mag? 300 Win Mag? 7mm Rem Mag? 7mm Wby Mag? 270 Wby mag? 257 Wby mag? 222 Rem Mag?

I said in an earlier post to keep the WSM and buy the Wby. I still stand behind that. However you can always step it.......meaning get the rifle and then then scope it with a great deal from the classifieds here. But.........if you are like me waiting can sometimes be way too hard!!!

Go for it.....but I would try a few shots first if you can.....they aren't "easy" on the shoulder.

Rich has the plan, get the 300 Vanguard and keep the WSM.

The short magnum business really is an oxymoron. The point of shorter cartridges in a hunting rifle is making up a lighter and handier rifle via a shorter action wedded to a lighter barrel. The short magnums really need a longer barrel, and the rifles need to weigh 8 1/2# or more to accomodate the barrel length, as well as recoil.

A short action matched with a light short rifle fit; the short magnums simply don't.

I beg to differ... my Kimber MT weighs under 7lbs 3oz's ready to rock and doesn't kick that much. But the stock design is tops and the action is specifically designed around the cartridge. Because the action is fairly small, even with a 24" barrel it's the equivalent OAL of a long action M70 with a 22.75" barrel. It's a match that works well...

My 2 bits says the .300 Wthby is the catsass and if your recoil sensitive you can always make it under perform and load it down a couple hundred fps to make it perform like the winny. but I think you'll turn out better buying it outright and then selling your's outright online than you will trading it off.

You are simply wrong here. As Brad said the Short mags are available in well designed rifles with good recoil pads that are quite comfortable to shoot. The short action also makes a difference in overall length of rifle. Here's a Mato 270 Winchester with 24" barrel next to a Kimber 8400 270 WSM:




The Kimber is a couple pounds lighter and is much nicer to carry. Some people will prefer the heavier rifle as feeling more comfortable and stable to shooot. If I'm walking much the lighter easy handling Kimber WSM is MUCH MUCH nicer to be humping up and down hills.
And anyone who doesn't think that the WSM's offer magnum ballistic performance doesn't know how to read a ballistics chart.................................DJ

Get the new Vanguard, it has a better trigger.

Talk about recoil, Why? Get one of those Sharp Shooter Magnum Rifle Rests from Cabelas $99.99. Do all your load testing and playing with one of them with your forend clamped in solid!!! I did it with my 264 last season. Point of impact did not change when put on sandbags. It makes a handy tool to hold rifle for cleaning and scope mounting. Best $100 I ever spent for shooting.
It eliminates pulled shots as it holds the crosshair solid without any movement. You still get some kick but not like off the sandbags.

Never have noticed any recoil when shooting at a deer or elk.

Sandbags like a poor orgasm. Rifle rest listed above is like your best 10 combined.

When I was 24 and 155 lbs of muscle I would shoot 5 or 6 rifles off the bench rests. Probably 35-40 shots from magnums. Never got sore. Now at 71 the $99.99 REST is a real shoulder saver and no flinches.

I think I'm going to wait and see what happens. As I said before I just picked up a 257 wby this past December and I've wanted it for a very long time. I probably won't be wanting to shoot anything else for awhile. I already know it shoots decent with the few loads that I've worked up for it and I want to do alot more load testing with it. I also have a Timney trigger ordered for it too. I don't have the attention for a new gun right now anyway. Thanks for the input from everybody.....that's what I love about the campfire!
The 300 wsm shoots very well right out of the box. Before I got it I had several guys tell me that the 300 wsm kicked like a mule. I've taken my 300 to the range several times now and shot 40 to 60 rounds at a session and had no problems or soreness from recoil. Remington has Limbsaver make their recoil pads so I think maybe that has alot to do with the lack of recoil I thought it had?? I did run into a guy at the range shooting a browning a-bolt 300 wsm and he told me his rifle had heavy recoil until he put on a limbsaver recoil pad.
When I decide to get the 300 wby. I'm going to a discount store and pick up a 399 vanguard. Then Im going to jump on line and buy a B & C Medallist stock with aluminum bedding block ($244) and a Timney trigger($110) and I'll still be below the price big green wants for its top end model 700's.

Hey brian, do they still have that M700 gray lam/stainless 338RUM on the shelf there? (used)

that one really had my attention, price was very good, condition was excellent.

if it had been 338WM instead, It would have went home with me.

I have a Vanguard in .300 Roy and love it. I don't think the recoil is that bad. The heavier bullets can be pretty stiff, but no worse then in a .300 Win Mag. Its just not that bad.
Factory ammo is all over the place. Weatherby has more loads for the .300 Wby then any other Wby round, something like 10 differnt bullets and loads. Price isn't that bad either. Heck the other day I picked up Hornady custom with the 150 grain interbond for $39.99. If you reload the options are endless.

I used the Hornady 180 interlocks last year in CO for elk.

Kilt em deader than heck & they shoot better than anything I have tried so far in my 300WBY. At the time I think I got mine for about $33 a box, I don't think that's bad for a big magnum.

Brian if you are going to add the B&C anyway just buy the sub moa, it comes with that stock and it's a guaranteed shooter.

Last month I finished building my .300 Weatherby. It will be my primary elk rifle. I didn't really need it as I have killed almost 3 dozen elk with lesser calibers, but I got it because I've always wanted one. Yesterday I took it to the range and shot a 4 shot group with 180 gr Barnes TSX bullets that measured 0.76" at an average 10' velocity of 3180 fps.
It's a Vanguard with a 24" barrel that I had a local gunsmith install a KDF muzzle brake. I stocked it in AA Fancy Claro walnut. It's glass and pillar bedded with the barrel channel glassed and free floated. I worked on the trigger, including polishing the trigger and sear and adjusted it to a crisp 2 1/2 pound break. I also installed a Limbsaver pad and a mercury recoil reducer in the stock. I topped it with a 4-12x Leupold. It weighs 10 pounds, but that's the same as several of my other hunting rifles that I've carried up many sheep and goat mountains and the plains of South Africa. Felt recoil is about like a .308 Win that I used to have in a M77 Ruger.

It's my new most favorite rifle.

Buffybr that is a SWEET rig!

I really like that.

where did you get the stock?

I have my 300wby req filled but i could easily see myself doing something like this in a 257.

I like that stock.

where can i get one?

PS a 180 @ 3180 with 24" of tube is impressive. especially when it holds that tight at that speed.

nice

Need I say more a 300 WSM is a 300 Weatherby wannabee!

You're glad to pay $2 a round for 150gr hornady bullets!???

Dang I'm glad I reload.........................DJ

What a bunch of Hooey.

Load 180 Accubonds in each. Site in at 200 and shoot an animal at 300yds. The Weatherby will hit with 2650ftlbs of energy and the WSM will hit 1" lower with 2300ftlbs of energy. There isn't an animal in the world that it would make a difference on.

The biggest difference is that the WSM will do it with a rifle that weighs 2lbs less , kicks less, that's 3" shorter and burns 15-20grs less powder.

The difference is in the rifles that shoot them more than the rounds.

I own a couple very nice 300 Weatherby's but I'm not silly enough to think that it's a much more powerful gun than a 300 WSM.........................DJ

That's what I said

If you think the results between the two will be any different you aren't thinking. Either will result in the same dead animal....................................DJ

Looks like a Richards Microfit to me. Very retro 1950's American custom. I'm more into the early German Engish classic styling myself, but it does have a very cool look to it.

Terry

I don't think you'll find a bigger 300 Weatherby fan than me. It's my favorite caliber and it kills very efficiently. It's a big rifle though, 26" barrel, etc. The WSM, although I don't own one, makes a lot of sense. Smaller, lighter package with an almost equal punch. If you don't handload, Wby ammo is very expensive due to it's foreign manufacture.

WSM ammo is I believe, less costly. The Weatherby probably handles 200gr & bigger bullets better. It's a good caliber, but I'll stick with my Weatherby. Now if some day I was lucky enough to hunt Marco Polo sheep, I can't think of a better round to build a light rifle that could reach out with authority than a 300 WSM. jorge

This argument is as silly as the debate over 9mm vs. 45 auto. Short magnums don't do anything a standard caliber hasn't done or even done better ballistically for years.


This picture is evident of that. The two rifles don't have the same barrel length, so you can't say that you are saving in weight due to the shorter action. Look at the actions and you can see less than 1 inch in length difference.

The weight save in a short action is in the middle of the action where the least amount of steel is removed. The difference in case length between a 300 Winchester short mag (2.1 inch) VS. a 300 Weatherby Mag.(2.815 inch) is a whopping .715 inches.

In terms of weight, when you take .715 inches of steel out of the center of the action (because the overall action in front and rear needs the same steel for bolt and lugs) you are only talking a couple of ounces of weight.

Now if you can tell the difference in the weight for that couple of ounces of steel and the stock (as you have added stock material to handle that extra .715 inches of action), fine, you are welcome to that.

Most of the people comparing short magnum rifles to standard rifles are using the concept of a "Mountain Rifle" which has been cut down in weight for carrying in the mountains and needs to be light. The same can be done in weight savings on a standard caliber and the only difference comes down to the .715 inches. That is all you are saving.

If you happen to like all that load of marketing crap to sell new ideas on an old and proven caliber/rifle, so be it, go and get one. When it comes to preferring a peanut butter and jelly sandwich over Ham and Cheese, that is personal preference, just the same as a short magnum preferred over a standard.

I reload as well. I just didn't happen to have any put together and wanted to shoot my Wby that morning. So yeah I was glad to pay the money. Similar stuff for the WSM was running $35.99 I guess I don't think the extra $4 is that big of a ball buster. Maybe thats just me.

I really like it, it says weatherby but it's the anti-bling version.

I'll have to PM buffybr & get the lowdown.

like i said, i would like to do that with a vanguard in 257

The owner of a 30 06 could tell you the same thing.

Brad, not Minnesota but I've shot deer with a 300 Roy in Wisc at about 12 yards............grin

The flat trajectory really helped out

Now the 308 Montana gets the woods nod.

Now that right there is priceless...

this has been a great article to read, much more entertaining then a pair of range dorks nit picking every little detail only to come to a conclusion ya'll did in one sentence.

I'll just say follow your heart. You've gotten some good arguments, and some not so good.

I've had both and the Weatherby is now gone. Mine is not a fair comparison, a MK-V vs a custom Remington. The Weatherby did not shoot particularly well and the Remington shoot extremely well. I could not get my handloads to shoot as good as the Weatherby ammo either. The first and only time that this has ever happened. For a while the WSM's looked to be on the extinction list but the 300 WSM seems to be doing ok. When I had my MK-V Weatherby/Norma was the only game in town for ammo. Now there are a few more choices although I expect the Weatherby/Norma stuff to be better quality.

Good Luck with your decision!

I actually had a 300wby back when this thread originated... 10 damn years ago.. I still prefer that over the wsm. But would take a 30-06 over either one, personally.... Just sayin..