I have a Ruger 77 in 7mm Rem Mag with a barrel that is quite heavy. I have considered having it fluted or turned down but decided against it. I have one other 7mm Rem Mag, a 7mm Dakota and a .300wsm. That power range/diameter is pretty well covered. I have decided to have the barrel re-bored to something bigger as my only big bores are a .358 Win and a 45-70; neither a long range proposition. Even though what I already have will handle elk/moose/black bear nicely, I need to have a reason; so I guess that is what I will use it for. I would want to be good to 400 yards, in the case of a long shot at elk. I would think that with bullets in the 250 grain range, the the 338 will be a little slower and the 375 should be fastest by a 100fps or so. The 338, however, will have a better sectional density and higher ballistic coefficient, and at longer ranges will have higher velocity and slightly flatter trajectory. So, finally we get to the question- am I better off with the higher BC and SD of the 338 or the larger diameter of the 375, or should I split the difference and go with the 358?
Also, I am thinking that the .375/.300 Win should give slightly better velocity than a 375 H&H because, according to my Barnes manual, the Win case has a couple grains more capacity. What do you think?
BTW- The reason I don't just dump the rifle and do something different is that this rifle is the first one I ever bought as a young teen with proceeds from my trapline. I put God knows how many rounds through it (I bought primers by the thousand for it) and the action is now incredibly smooth. Besides that my 'smith does a great job with the re-bores.
acy...We are realy splitting some very fine hairs IMHO. However, if I were facing the same, I "think" I may cast my vote for the .338 for it's "shootability" over the others mentioned.
I also feel sure you may get as many different answers as there Gun Owners, as this question borders on the 270 vs 30-06 debate. I don't know that there is a good answer.
Your thoughts on a 400 yd shot is certainly not impossible for many shooters, albeit a "fur piece" for this old goat. I think this may prove an interesting thread to follow. Good luck on your endeavor.
Russ
Thanks Russ. I know I am really splitting hairs here. Probably no real "right" answer to the question. That is what makes the decision so hard to make! I can, at various times convince myself that any one of the three is the best choice- then a minute later... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I guess that is part of the fun.
Acy,
Just thought I'd chime in here. I don't know if you read my post about my .338-06 that Al rebored for me. But the 1st 3 shots for group went into .695" outside to outside. Minus .338 = .357" Now we all know that his barrels shoot.
Concerning your dilemma: The .358 Norma is a good one but the drawbacks are that there is only one factory load available. 250 gr. RN. And most .35 cal bullets are meant for less velocity that the .358 Norma puts out. Basically your are left with the 250 gr. Nosler part. the Barnes x bullets and factory loads. Choices are limited. I would vote against the .358 Norma for that reason.
The .375/.300 Win. is fully the equal of the venerable H&H, but you realize there are NO factory loads availble and there are not going to be. However bullet selections if far better than the .35 cal.
About the .338. There's is nothing I can say about that that you don't already know. YOu now have my $.02 worth FWIW...the9.3Guy
The 338 WM is the most practical, useful, shootable and readily available mid-bore for NA use that can be chambered in a moderately light 22" bbl'd rifle, period. You can get fancy and follow your desire wherever it leads you but it really doesn't get any better. Boring? Yep... boring AND reliable just like the 30-06.
BA
I agree with Brad, and like his assessment of a 22 inch barrel. The .338 is like a big .30-06. If animals are larger than 300 lbs, it is my favorite, esp in Alaska, Africa, or elk. There is a guy named Ray who lives in AK and loves it.
The 358Norma mag is the best choice by far. Powerful close and flat shooting long. Actually, many bullet choices. Nosler partitions, grand slams, hornadys, woodleighs and swift Aframe to the elite bitteroots for starters. The norma can be downloaded to 358win power (with lower velocity bullets also) and can be loaded up to 375H&h power with 310gr solids. I even have a beanfield load of 180gr barnes x at 3200fps. Everyone has locked on to the 338mag which is a good round but the 358 is a good deal better and has never been offered by an american manufacturer!! It's special.
Just not many shooters with 358 norma knowledge. Be different.
I can't think of one thing wrong with the 338 Win. Mag., however, give me the 26-inch barrel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The 338 Winnie is probably the most practical cartridge NA, as Brad has already stated. One (if not) of my favorite cartridges out there.
My .300wsm was custom built on a long action Ruger tang safety. I load 180gr XLC's to 3.15"OAL at 3125fps. Groups run around .5" or under with that load. Is the .338 enough different to make it the best choice?
Not really concerned with factory round availability. I rarely shoot factory ammo and at least half of my rifles have never had a factory round through them.
9 3GUY- Glad to hear your .338-06 shoots well, but no surprise either. Al is as good as it gets, IMO.
Acy, I've shot one elk with a 300 WSM (300 yards, two shots through the lungs)... not much of a test. The elk died. Still, I couldn't detect that it dropped that elk any differently than those I've shot with an 06 or those my friend dropped the same day with his 270 (130's). However, those elk I've shot with the 338 WM reacted differently than those hit with the smaller bores. They typically let you know they're hit when 338'd and seem to go down a bit quicker. Deader? No. Is the 338 WM necessary? No. If I were in your position and had your battery (sounds like you've got a lot of 24-26" bbl's) I'd do something very different and cobble up a short barreled elk thumper (22" bbl.). 210's run just over 3,000 fps in mine (with a 22" tube) and 225's run 2,850 fps. Or, you could be real dfferent and trade the rifle for an 06! (I know you want to keep your current rifle, grins) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Brad- If the elk act differently to the 338, would they act more differently to a 358 or 375? I think I like the idea of going with a 22" barrel instead of 24". Should be handier in the thick stuff. Al
Acy
338 Win mag is tough to beat in my opinion. Plenty of reloading comps and factory loads. But there aint nothing wrong with a 358 Norma or a 338-06 either.
Charlie
Acy, I can't comment on that as I've never seen elk slain with either, though friends that have downed elk with the 375 H&H tell me they think the 338 WM works better. That might well be a function of bullet design/speed. As I wasn't there I can't comment. A 358 Norma would work well in a 22" tube as it's essentially the same case. Personally I like "standard" US chamberings... heck, WallyWorld here sells the factory 338 WM stuff! I had a 338-06 and really don't think it offers much if anything over the standard 06' and in some ways I doubt it's as good (trajectory, rifle weight, etc.). If I want a step-up in power over the 06' I think the 338 WM is a solid choice... obviously not the only choice.
You sound like you lean more towards the off-beat. If that's your bent go for it... this is all fun and games anyway. I'm too practical for all that I suppose...
BA
Brad- This most definitely is fun and games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think I am leaning slightly towards the 338 with 22" barrel. That will make a good large/medium bore; and leave room in the future for a much needed larger bore! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Mr. Sisk- Do you second Brad on the 22" barrel for the .338; or would you go a different length?
If you reload there is no reason to worry if wally world carries your ammo. I got my 358 norma mag brass from midway. it is not cheap but it lasts a quite a while. I am on the 3rd or 4th reloading with no problem signs. I paid something like $80 for 100 brass and it came in 20 round norma marked boxes. they are currently $95 a 100. tom
Acy, one thing to think about is the bore-volume / case-capacity ratio of the 338 WM... it's about exactly the same as the 30-06. We all know the 06 works fine in a 22" tube. Long before I'd ever heard of anyone cutting a 338 WM to 22" I reasoned it would work well and did it. Subsequently I found out that the likes of John Barsness (our own Mule Deer), Finn Aagaard, Bob Bell and David Petzal all have 22" bbl'd 338 WM's... guess my reasoning wasn't too lame <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie's excellent test's tend to shoot holes (ha!) in the idea of long barrels. Obvioulsy smaller bores with large case capacities get too LOUD in short tubes... I've not found the 338 WM to be overly loud in a 22" bbl'd rifle.
BA
acy, I started hunting with a 7mag when I was thirteen. Learned to really shoot it over the years but had a yen for something different. About 12 years ago put together a 338 win. and haven't looked back or forward since. I've shot deer, elk and bison with it and can't imagine something else doing a better job. You can buy factory ammo anywhere (In case the airlines loose the good stuff) so you wouldn't have to panic. I've shot a 358 AI but nothing in the 375 camp. The 338 is in the front of the safe so it's the first one out everytime!
Here is my bag with the .338 Win Mag:
1 grizzly bear
1 bull moose
5 bull elk
2 mule deer
1 whitetail
2 kudu
3 gemsbok
1 zebra
2 hartebeest (lichtenstein's and red)
1 wildebeest
1 warthog
1 impala
I am sure I missing something, and I am sure others have shot more, but there is quite a variety there in terms of size.
I started out shooting a 7mm Rem and consequently have the most experience with that, but the .338 really shines. In no case was anything lacking, although I did lose a kudu once (killed 2, lost 1), my only loss ever. It simply was not a good shot; kudu are certainly not as tough as elk, and everyone of them were pole-axed. The .338 isn't a sexy laser beam, but it dispatches game without requiring a fat long barrel, an oversized scope, or a need to worry about barrel life.
I go whole heartedly with caveman. I plan on rechambering my 7mm rem mag to 358 norma with a 26 inch barrel in the near future. I just feel that it is just a bit better.
Brian
Probably leaning towards the .338; but unfortunately my gunsmith has both 338 Win and 358 Norma reamers, so he is no help <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. .375 has been ruled out, but for no real reason that makes any sense.
come on acy dare to be differant lol tom.
I think for a long shot at elk like that I'd be praticing with one of those 7mm's you already have, with a heavy pill.
I say convert this one into 375 Dakota.
It will round out your battery nicely, once you get that 416 you been wanting.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I currently have a .358 Norma Mag and .375 H&H Mag (and I have had a .338 Win Mag).
If you handload go with the .358 Norma for versatility! I shoot bullets ranging from 110gr to 310gr. Furthermore, there is a huge variety of .35 cal bullet molds if you cast, and realy few for the .338 or .375 by comparison.
The .358 is the best combination of flat shooting, large bullet diameter and mass vs recoil -- if you can handle the recoil of course!
The .358 is a dandy (if very gruesome!) varmint rifle. A 125gr Hornady HollowPoint designed for .357 Magnum handgun velocities like 1200fps will really have a noticeable effect on a varmint when it connects at 3000fps! You can push them even faster, but some bullets destruct in mid air. Forget all this if you value the pelt though... ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
If you don't handload, go for the .375 or .338. Rifles in .375 tend to be overly heavy, so in general I'd give the nod to the .338 for a non-handloader who has to carry his own rifle.