actually the Dad to my surrogate daughters has a problem.
His oldest one is 13 and this is her second year of hunting with Dad. He bought her a good used Ruger with a Nikon scope in 7X57. Number one daughter is a good size girl, not fat, and the 7X57 makes her a good elk and deer rifle.
Number two daughter is a eleven. Next year when she turns twelve she wants to take hunter safety and go hunting with Dad and number one daughter.
Number two daughter is a little bit of a thing. She's almost 5' and weights 85 pounds. It will probably take her two years to hit a 100 pounds. She can lift a .22lr rifle but that's about it. Montana allows a .22 center fire rifle for elk and deer hunting and that's probably the caliber she will have to use for the foreseeable future. I'm thinking a bolt or single shot in .223 will probably have to do and weigh no more than 5 to 6 pounds.
Any of you guys with very petite daughters have any suggestions?
It sounds to me like she needs a lightweight 257 Bob. The Montana is great, but if number 1 daughter already has a Ruger then the Ruger M77 UL in Bob might be a good fit for number 2.
I am thinking the same. Plus a good sling will help. Easier for her to carry up to the point where she needs to shoot. Find a rest and go from there. I assume she can't hunt alone. Just means she might need some extra help from Dad is all.
yeah i think using a 223 on elk would be like spitting sunflower seeds at squirrels.
I have no experience with in this but you may check out the Ruger Compact, lots of different calibers including .223 .243 among others.
fwiw
IMO it'd be like starting the kid out with a .410 on ducks. Why set her up with a good possibility of failing? A light weight 7-08 and taking the time to acclimate her to shooting it with light loads progressing to heavier loads will take her where she wants to go.
I have never understood the rationale of folks wanting to start their wives or kids out with a weapon that was marginal at best and then add in buck fever and overall newness and expect them to precisely place the shots needed to kill the animal. If the time can't be taken to train the wife or child to shoot well an adequete weapon for the game sought, they shouldn't be in the woods.
Take a look at ruger compact and savage youth. the ruger has more chamberings
Savagage in 243 and 7mm-08
Ruger has in addition 260 and 6.8mm spc
these are the offerings that will not back up to bad and the 243 is as small as I would recommend for elk.
The savage is "suppose" to be easy to put a different barrel on While I have never done it you may be able to make a 260 or 7mm-08 or 308 out of a 243 down the road some time. You need to check with someone that knows more to be sure on that.
Be the way I hope all your problems are this good.
8mmwapiti
For deer and the possibility of an elk, I would vote for the Ruger compact (youth model) in 260. I would load the Hornady 95 gr V-max bullet to 2800 fps and let the young lady shoot a few hundred of them during the summer.
Then I would switch over to the 120 ballistic tip at the same velocity for deer hunting. It is a pretty decent deer bullet, and I doubt the young lady would notice much difference in recoil in the field.
For use on really big muley bucks, or even for elk, under these conditions I would recommend the use of the Nosler 130 gr accubond at 2800 fps.
The trajectory of the three rounds will be so similar inside 250 yds that a young shooter should not have to worry about the difference on big game. The only caveat might be if the rifle does not shoot them to the same place. One might have to resight the rifle when switching to the heavier weight bullets.
The savage is "suppose" to be easy to put a different barrel on While I have never done it you may be able to make a 260 or 7mm-08 or 308 out of a 243 down the road some time. You need to check with someone that knows more to be sure on that.
8mmwapiti
As a matter of fact, the Savage is just as easy to rebarrel as the rumors claim. I have done it myself with a standard bench vise in the garage.
I drilled a hole in a piece of 2x6 hardwood just big enough to secure the barrel and then rip sawed the block through the center of the hole.
I used the wooden block to pad the vise jaws as the barrel was clamped and loosened the barrel lock nut with an inexpensive wrench from Midway USA.
The newly chambered barrel was headspaced on a freshly necked down empty case and then the locknut tightened.
Contact Sharp Shooter's Supply for all things related to Savage rifles. They can rechamber your barrel, or supply you with new or factory takeoff barrels in a variety of chamberings. They rechambered my 22-250 to 22-243AI.
There you go, Derby. Now grab your wallet and go for it!
Get the Marlin XS-7 youth rifle in 243. Since it is nearly a clone to the Savage 110 series, you can swap barrels with a minimum of 'smithing to set the headspace. Lots of 1 in 9" ROT Savage/Stevens 223 barrels out there just begging to be rechambered to 22-250.
I'd also suggest getting her the Savage Mark II BV 22 as an understudy rifle and have her shoot 2000+/- rounds from a variety of positions with the same scope that you're going to put on her hunting rifle. This rifle has a heavy barrel, so she'll get used to the weight while building her confidence. I know that it is an extra cost that you might not have factored in, but it is hard to "unlearn" bad habits.
Jeff
I sure like my new 308 win kimber montana and my select classic in .257 bob. The bob in the kimber montana sure would be a nice light low recoil rifle.
the kimber is a hell of a rifle for the money a mod 7 rem or faux TI would be another good choice!
Another vote here for a lightweight Kimber 260.
In my opinion the Kimber is more expensive than I would put in the hands of an 11 year old. Most 11 year old kids can not appreciated a fine firearm and would be better served with a less expensive starter rifle. But that is just my opinion.
8mmwapiti
Kate is 14, runs a Remington Seven Youth in 7-08 and loves it but she is over 100 pounds by a lil bit and an athlete but her 11 year old sister who is closer to 100 can run it fine.....my Kimber 84M Montana is a full pound lighter at a couple ounces under 7#'s when both are ready to hunt but its also got a longer length of pull that a smaller build might not like...
Thanks guys for your input. I'm looking a Thompson Center as a possibility.
I never thought of a Ruger sub compact or the Savage. Will have to look at both.
Dad doesn't re-load never has and I don't think he ever will. Strictly a factory man. If the factory doesn't make it you don't need it.
As to caliber it has to be really light. She has the body mass of eight year old. I think the re-coil of the 7X57 would break her shoulder, certainly dislocate it. Weight of the rifle is a real problem. We have her doing push ups to build up her upper body strength.
We are talking really petite light body mass. Personally, I don't think she will have the strength and body mass to handle the re-coil of a .260 Remington until she is about 18.
A buddy of mine had a similar problem his son was about the same size. Put together a tc contender carbine with the youth stock and it worked very well. Over all length was very short with the 16 in bbl. one thing to remember is when they are that small is weight out front seems to make a much larger difference than for a larger person. Leverage and all that. Nice thing about the contender is you can run a 22 lr for practice then just swap barrels and everything else is the same for them. What we did was use a 30-30 barrel and run light bullet low recoil handloads. Now remington makes low recoil factory loads. I am not a fan of brakes but a buddy had one from ea brown co that had the muzzle brake you could turn off and on. You could chamber it in something like 6.8 spc and stay away from the hot loads.
Ruger makes a kid size model 77 that can probably be had in a 243. We have one in a 223 for our hunter safety classes, and the smallest of kids handle it with no problem.
Thompson Contender Carbine...pick a caliber. They are light and most important, not muzzle heavy.
Good luck!
DD: What kind of ranges are you thinking she'll be shooting?
Marlin 1894(38/357 or 44spc/44Mag) 6 or 6.5 pounds almost no recoil for woods ranges. Plus she can build comfort and familiarity by shooting the lighter loads and working up to some hotter heavier loads once she gets used to shooting.
H&R 243 Win. Superlight Handi-Rifle Compact (SB2-SY5) 5.3 Pounds
For field ranges.
TC G2/contender carbine in 7-30 Waters with a 16" barrel and cut down youth stock.
I actually have one set up with a 14" barrel but that's an extra $200 for 2 inches less barrel.
Much better choice than a .22 centerfire and a lot lighter than a bolt .260.
DD: What kind of ranges are you thinking she'll be shooting?
Well if you listen to the ranges nothing under 1,000 yards, well maybe 400 yards, well maybe...
Realistically, likely around a 100 yards.
hell a trapper length Marlin in 44 mag......
actually the Dad to my surrogate daughters has a problem.
His oldest one is 13 and this is her second year of hunting with Dad. He bought her a good used Ruger with a Nikon scope in 7X57. Number one daughter is a good size girl, not fat, and the 7X57 makes her a good elk and deer rifle.
Number two daughter is a eleven. Next year when she turns twelve she wants to take hunter safety and go hunting with Dad and number one daughter.
Number two daughter is a little bit of a thing. She's almost 5' and weights 85 pounds. It will probably take her two years to hit a 100 pounds. She can lift a .22lr rifle but that's about it. Montana allows a .22 center fire rifle for elk and deer hunting and that's probably the caliber she will have to use for the foreseeable future. I'm thinking a bolt or single shot in .223 will probably have to do and weigh no more than 5 to 6 pounds.
Any of you guys with very petite daughters have any suggestions?
.............#2 daughter needs the lite-weight 5 3/4 lb Ruger Hawkeye compact chambered in the 260 Remy or 7mm/08, with a lite Leupold scope on it.
Its OAL of only 35.5" and shorter LOP, will make things easier for her when carrying, shouldering and manuvering. For a bolt action, you cannot beat the Ruger compacts when it comes to overall handling.
In my opinion the Kimber is more expensive than I would put in the hands of an 11 year old. Most 11 year old kids can not appreciated a fine firearm and would be better served with a less expensive starter rifle. But that is just my opinion.
8mmwapiti
My opinion also. But it also too expensive for my hands also. If I took something that expensive to the woods I would worry so much about scratching the rifle I would not be able to have any fun. An 11 year old should not have to worry about the care a rifle. They should just be thinking about safety.
Also, an 11 year old may not want to hunt more than once.
Remember to make it fun.
My $.02, buy 243, buy used, used low recoil loads, and get a limbsaver pad. Teach her to shoot by supporting the rifle on something to help her control the rifle. I use this method still.
Saw a Marlin XS youth model in 7-08 at Sportsman's Warehouse today.
Would certainly make a nice gun for a small framed beginner only $300.
Gotta agree with 260remguy here.
Marlin XS7 Youth in 243. Get her a bigger one (308?) in a few years when she can handle one. Would still cost less than one Ruger, Rem, Winchester.
Edit to add, they have great recoil pads, perfect for beginners or old folks.
In my opinion the Kimber is more expensive than I would put in the hands of an 11 year old. Most 11 year old kids can not appreciated a fine firearm and would be better served with a less expensive starter rifle. But that is just my opinion.
8mmwapiti
My opinion also. But it also too expensive for my hands also. If I took something that expensive to the woods I would worry so much about scratching the rifle I would not be able to have any fun. An 11 year old should not have to worry about the care a rifle. They should just be thinking about safety.
Also, an 11 year old may not want to hunt more than once.
Remember to make it fun.
My $.02, buy 243, buy used, used low recoil loads, and get a limbsaver pad. Teach her to shoot by supporting the rifle on something to help her control the rifle. I use this method still.
seriously? you guys worry bout beating the chit out of a $1,000 gun? how is it any different from a $600 gun with a $400 scope? its stainless and synthetic meant to be abused.....if i dropped a couple grand on nicely figured walnut i might, and thats a big might, feel guilty bout beating the hell out of it.....its a tool meant to be used who cares bout dings and scratches? i certainly dont.....
I'd go Rem 700 youth in 243 with 4x Weaver or Leupold in talleys. Please check her eye dominance though. I am relearning shooting after 35 years of shooting against my dominant eye. Both my kids are righthanded and shooting lefthanded to match eye dominance. They both shoot very well.
The Rem youth is available in either right or lefthand configs. Good luck.
For 100 yards, Rattler has it. Trapper length Marlin in 44 mag.
6 pounds, virtually no recoil, and with the leverevolution ammo it has plenty of thump. Plus it is a dandy cool gun.
After raising children hunting, my honest opinion is that they are not old enough to shoot animals, until they are old enough to use proper equipment. There are too many disappointments along the way if not.
.260 Rem would get my vote, and I agree with Itppowell - if the girl can't handle anything bigger than a .22 centerfire she probably isn't ready to hunt.
In my experience, since I started elk hunting in 1982, I've seen .243's wound and lose more game than probably all other cartridges combined. Those .243's were often in the hands of young hunters.
After raising children hunting, my honest opinion is that they are not old enough to shoot animals, until they are old enough to use proper equipment. There are too many disappointments along the way if not.
Her Dad and I have talked about that. She may not be able to hunt until she is into her late teens or early twenties. It will break her heart but she is just to small.
.260 Rem would get my vote, and I agree with Itppowell - if the girl can't handle anything bigger than a .22 centerfire she probably isn't ready to hunt.
In my experience, since I started elk hunting in 1982, I've seen .243's wound and lose more game than probably all other cartridges combined. Those .243's were often in the hands of young hunters.
I actually think over all the .22 center fire maybe be a better killer than the 6mm especially with premium bullets. I've seen too many big animals flatten with .22 center fires. I think it's because people shooting .22 center fires tend to practice more and because of practice they place their shots better. Another thing the .22 center fires explode like a bomb inside of the animal releasing all energy inside instead of out side the animal. YMMV.
Losing an animal after a shot does not envoke confidence in a hunter and seems to be particularly demoralizing to young ladies. Making them wait a little longer only strengthens their desire. In the meanwhile, let 'em pick on something their own size.
Pat i know a gal locally thats 20, 5 foot tall and MIGHT be 85 pounds, good friend of one of my sisters.....should she not hunt? some ppl dont get very big, waiting may not be in the cards cause if they do they will never get to hunt.....hell by wife was 105 when we met and not much for upper body strength, wasnt till we started dating and going canoeing and chit that she got the upper body strength to hold a decent sized rifle....
if the kid is gonna get to practice i see no reason why a 223 or 22-250 with good bullets wont work for deer at moderate ranges....hell going out and being picky bout your shots beats not going out at all.....teach the kid, let her practice all she can and load up good bullets and go hunting and be done with it....
If the obvious answer of .243 or .260 is too much for her then I would look for something in the intermediate AR calibers.
Ruger makes their compact in 6.8 SPC or 7.62x39.
The CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39 is downright dainty.
Pat i know a gal locally thats 20, 5 foot tall and MIGHT be 85 pounds, good friend of one of my sisters.....should she not hunt? some ppl dont get very big, waiting may not be in the cards cause if they do they will never get to hunt.....hell by wife was 105 when we met and not much for upper body strength, wasnt till we started dating and going canoeing and chit that she got the upper body strength to hold a decent sized rifle....
if the kid is gonna get to practice i see no reason why a 223 or 22-250 with good bullets wont work for deer at moderate ranges....hell going out and being picky bout your shots beats not going out at all.....teach the kid, let her practice all she can and load up good bullets and go hunting and be done with it....
I never said anybody shouldn't hunt. The girl in question is eleven, not twenty. Dad may not care if she loses an animal or two with a little gun, it comes with the territory. Right? I promise that she will care...a lot.
rather have someone that runs a 223 with good bullets and practices versus giving a kid a 30-06 that scares the crap out of them.....the real question is, if yah hand her the 223 can she put the bullet in the boiler room? if she can the 223 with good bullets will work just fine at 100 yards on a deer....she cant shoot straight with the 223 wont matter what she is running.....buy the kid a 223 that fits her, get her shooting it, if she can hold'er steady from field positions or from a rest in a stand or hide if thats how yah hunt she is good to go.....if not she needs to practice more and wait....
seems simple to me especially since from Derby's post im guessing the gal is here in Montana which means she cant hunt till next season anyway as you have to be 12 to hunt big game and the main seasons are over as of yesterday so they got bout 10 months to sort out if she can put one in the boiler room or not.....
Happy birthday dude! Sorry I missed the cake ealier.
The original post was about shooting deer AND elk with a .223. You guys know know more about elk than I do, but if they are as tough as some guys say, I wouldn't shoot an elk with a .223 unless it was in the head.
sorry missed the elk, was just thinking deer......wouldnt choose to shoot an elk with a 223, especially with a kid doing the shooting.....however i ran across a few the last couple seasons i am positive i coulda killed with a rock which means i prolly coulda taken one or more of them out with a 22 revolver....but its a quirk of the area we hunt where bull tags are hard to come by so the bulls dont get to riled up bout seeing a person....
Is her heart set on hunting elk? Would she be happy just hunting deer for a while?
I know you have had lots of suggestions, but here is one more.
300 Sav. I don't know what it is about that round but mine (in a 99) has about the same kick as a 223. Honestly. Maybe it's the stock design; I don't know. I handload mine (I know her dad does not) to 308 velocities. I am always amazed every time I fire it at the lack of recoil.
Maybe another hunter can carry the rifle for her until it is time to shoot. Then a more suitable round can be used. It is legal as long as they both have tags. I guess I just have a bad feeling about elk, inexperienced hunters and 22 Centerfires.
In my opinion the Kimber is more expensive than I would put in the hands of an 11 year old. Most 11 year old kids can not appreciated a fine firearm and would be better served with a less expensive starter rifle. But that is just my opinion.
8mmwapiti
My opinion also. But it also too expensive for my hands also. If I took something that expensive to the woods I would worry so much about scratching the rifle I would not be able to have any fun. An 11 year old should not have to worry about the care a rifle. They should just be thinking about safety.
Also, an 11 year old may not want to hunt more than once.
Remember to make it fun.
My $.02, buy 243, buy used, used low recoil loads, and get a limbsaver pad. Teach her to shoot by supporting the rifle on something to help her control the rifle. I use this method still.
seriously? you guys worry bout beating the chit out of a $1,000 gun? how is it any different from a $600 gun with a $400 scope? its stainless and synthetic meant to be abused.....if i dropped a couple grand on nicely figured walnut i might, and thats a big might, feel guilty bout beating the hell out of it.....its a tool meant to be used who cares bout dings and scratches? i certainly dont.....
Yes, seriously. The Kimber ad I based my reply to mentioned was a $1,400 rifle. Add a scope and you are up to $1,500- $1,800. In my opinion that is too serious for an 11 year old that may or may not love hunting. I think it would be wiser to get her something in the $500 range and put the extra $1,000 in her college fund.
Also in my opinion that is too serious for me. If I have that much to spend, I would also like to stay in the $500 range and put the extra $1,000 in my daughters' accounts because they are both in college. All I need is MOA of deer.
But, that is just me.......
Derby,
I have not read this whole thread so it may already have been mentioned but a 250 savage has little recoil and there are a few lightweights around such as th ruger ul.
With the 87 grain bullet it makes a fine low recoil deer round and with any of the 100 grain premiums it can be used on elk.
Some of the older rifles have 14" twist and may have trouble with the 100 grain but most of the newer models use 10" twist'
Good luck with your search for the young lady.
a 84M Montana runs closer to $1000 even.....guess i just view guns as tools and dont worry bout dings.....its nothing to drop a grand on a gun anymore dont see the difference in dinging up a $500 gun or a $1000.....if Jess wants to use my Kimber when she starts hunting ill hand it over, if she likes Kates Seven ill get her one of those, she prefers the feel of a Ruger Compact ill get her that...whatever she prefers fit wise ill get her but given the Kimbers stock doesnt fit her mom or her sis cause how their cheek bones are so im fairly positive she wont want a Kimber......
Yup Rattler, the young lady in question lives in Montana.
When I first moved to Montana all most 30 years ago I was amazed at the number of people both men and women that used a .22 centerfire to hunt deer and elk. I thought they were absolutely crazy until I saw the results. DRT. I admit most used a .22-250 or .220 Swift but there were some .223's mixed in as well.
A guy I knew killed a good size black bear with one shoot with a ,223 Ruger Mini-14 at about 75 yards with a shot to the boiler room.
I worked on a political campaign one time with a retired US Fish and Wildlife damage control office who used a .220 Swift for all animals in the lower 48 including both black bears and Griz. I asked him if he thought he was under gun especially for the Griz he said not at all DRT.
There are two things I have learned from observing and talking to people who use .22 centerfire rifles, one is that these people tend to shot a lot, a lot more than most big game hunters using bigger calibers. The second thing I've learned is that a hit in the boiler room usually turns the boiler room into Campbell soup. It is a real mess in there.
One final item. From my experience hunters using heavy re-coiling rifles tend to need 3-4 shots to put down an animal and leave a lot of wounded animals in the field. It's been my contention for a long time that if we hunters would back down the horse power and practice more we would be better hunters. There is nothing like practice and shot placement to do the job.
I do thank everybody for all the ideas and there are some real good ones that I intend to pass along to the girl's Dad. As Rattler said the girl can't hunt until she is 12 and has taken a hunter safety course so there is time to try and work things out. One of things we are trying to get her to do is push ups.
can a 223 be used for elk, sure but wouldnt be my choice, would prefer something a lil heavier like a 260 or 7-08 or the like wouldnt hesitate to use either for the majority of elk hunting, 223 requires pretty damn precise placement, a 60 grain pill runs out of steam pretty fast after hitting meat.......
would say take the girl out with the 223 after deer and save elk for a later date or run with something a tad bigger.....Kate says she is bout 129 at the moment and can run a ready to hunt 8 pound rifle in 7-08.....granted she has had the rifle for 3 years on Christmas Eve so she was prolly dealing with it when she was just under 100 pounds in 2006/early 2007 before she was actually hunting....
can a 223 be used for elk, sure but wouldnt be my choice, would prefer something a lil heavier like a 260 or 7-08 or the like wouldnt hesitate to use either for the majority of elk hunting, 223 requires pretty damn precise placement, a 60 grain pill runs out of steam pretty fast after hitting meat.......
would say take the girl out with the 223 after deer and save elk for a later date or run with something a tad bigger.....Kate says she is bout 129 at the moment and can run a ready to hunt 8 pound rifle in 7-08.....granted she has had the rifle for 3 years on Christmas Eve so she was prolly dealing with it when she was just under 100 pounds in 2006/early 2007 before she was actually hunting....
That's a good idea. Get her a rifle and let her pick it up and use it (empty of course) to build up muscle. We used to use our M-14's to do presses and curls.
another idea.....since her dad doesnt reload pick a chambering that offers a managed recoil load and even if the gun is a bit to heavy for her to shoot it well off hand get her her own pack and teach her how to use the pack as a rest from sitting or whatever....its what i did with Kate for the first year, took one of my packs, stuffed it full of sweatshirts and the like and let her get used to figuring out how to position it for a shot....lay it over a rock or branch.....get behind it and hunker down and use the top of it for an improvised shooting rest....
another idea.....since her dad doesnt reload pick a chambering that offers a managed recoil load and even if the gun is a bit to heavy for her to shoot it well off hand get her her own pack and teach her how to use the pack as a rest from sitting or whatever....its what i did with Kate for the first year, took one of my packs, stuffed it full of sweatshirts and the like and let her get used to figuring out how to position it for a shot....lay it over a rock or branch.....get behind it and hunker down and use the top of it for an improvised shooting rest....
Good idea, managed re-coil loads and learn how to use a rest.
My buddy's daughter started killing deer when she was ten with an original 92 Winchester SRC .44-40 I gave her for the purpose. She's been very successful with it for the last few years, always with 200 grain cast RNFP's at about 1000 fps. This year Dad bought her a .243.
Oh boy, now we get into the "oh yeah, a 22 center fire is lightning in a bottle" and will knock anything teats up. Thereby implying that the poster is one real Cool Hand Luke.
The same folks that will eagerly suggest that a .300WM or bigger is a good starter rifle for elk will think nothing of putting a untested kid or wife out in the woods with a varmint gun.
I read in here somewhere that the father wasn't a reloader, would never be. Well if he is so hopped up to have his daughter hunt, if this isn't just some sort of vicarious ego stroking, then he can start. If he really wants to do right by his daughter. If not, just buy her an AR or one of the clones that go pop pop pop and shoot up a few phone books and turn her loose in the woods.
One interesting question: Has the girl completed her hunter safety course?? When my kids went, part of the program was they had to load, unload, and shoot various types of weapons up to and including a 12 gauge shotgun.
Oh boy, now we get into the "oh yeah, a 22 center fire is lightning in a bottle" and will knock anything teats up. Thereby implying that the poster is one real Cool Hand Luke.
The same folks that will eagerly suggest that a .300WM or bigger is a good starter rifle for elk will think nothing of putting a untested kid or wife out in the woods with a varmint gun.
I read in here somewhere that the father wasn't a reloader, would never be. Well if he is so hopped up to have his daughter hunt, if this isn't just some sort of vicarious ego stroking, then he can start. If he really wants to do right by his daughter. If not, just buy her an AR or one of the clones that go pop pop pop and shoot up a few phone books and turn her loose in the woods.
One interesting question: Has the girl completed her hunter safety course?? When my kids went, part of the program was they had to load, unload, and shoot various types of weapons up to and including a 12 gauge shotgun.
No, she has not completed a hunter safety course. She can not take one until she is 12 or close to 12. I'm not sure on just what guns they shoot. If she has to shoot a 12 gauge shotgun well than this thread is a moot point. She'll never shoot a 12 gauge at least not until she is an adult.
Dad doesn't re-load and probably will never re-load. Dad is your typical Montana elk/deer hunter, buy a big rifle and a box of ammo and go hunting. I see that type at our shooting range all the time. Not knocking Dad he is by and large a good man just a typical Montana hunter. He has started to change a little now that his daughters are of hunting age.
I don't mean to put down Montana hunters but the typical Montana hunter shoots the biggest magnum he can fine, a box or two of ammo. sights in his rifle, and proceeds to use a half a box of ammo the kill an elk at a hundred yards.
I'm not kidding, I get to talk to a lot of people at the range especially women and girls who use "varmint" calibers on elk/deer and put their game down with one shot. It's also funny, in an ironic sense, to watch the female side get 1/2 inch groups at a hundred yards with those puny "varmint" calibers and than watch the male side get 3" to 5" groups with big magnum and call it close enough. I would much rather hunt with a person that can hit a target and kill an animal with a puny "varmint" caliber than someone with big magnum who relies on the "Hail Mary" shot to hit a target and kill an animal.
I am amazed that more people aren't killed in hunting accidents in Montana. The only thing that can count for that is that we have a few thousand hunters hunting over a month over hundreds of thousands of square miles.