Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M

Posted by: SoTexasH

Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 06:21 PM

I might have to get a new .308 and I lent a buddy of mine my .308 Tikka SS Laminate .308 and he took his first 3 deer with it. He is presuring me to buy it from me. So what do your think of these 3 options? Or any other ideas..

Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M

I have personaly never had any of them so looking for some others experience.. Thanks..
Posted by: M12

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 06:27 PM

I like em all. Flip a coin wink

It you want the lightest trimmest toy on the shelf get the 84M. But you might want to checkout the X-bolt too!
Posted by: 257Deland

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 06:31 PM

I have a Kimber Select Grade Claro 308. Weighs 6lb 6oz with a Leupold FXII 6x36, and will shoot MOA with most of the handloads I feed it. No experience with the other two, but I sure love my Kimber.
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 06:53 PM

Find folks that have each and shoot them. I can't comment on the other 2 but, the X-Bolt I have is a good rifle.

Don't think you could go wrong with any of those.

JM
Posted by: Fishinado

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 07:56 PM

I have two A7s, .308 & .300WSM, and four 84Ms, two in .308 (one Little Sky, one in wood), And two high grades in .300WSM.

The A7 is an absolute tack driver, shoots ~2" at 200yds, great trigger, it's my knock around gun. I like it a lot, and would buy another. Same goes for the WSM version.

My 84M Montana is one of my favorite rifles of all time. Shots sub MOA at100yds, great ergonomics, trigger, feel...AWESOME rifle. The wood version is all of the above but not as accurate. The two WSM 84Ms were an absolute nightmare. One had a dangerous head space problem (according to my smith), the other a high spot in the barrel. Both had to be skim bedded and re-crowned. Now both shoot ~well. Would I buy another Kimber? No. I did just buy a Sako 85 Bavarian. Could be my new best friend next to my Blaser!

I've heard some people bashing the A7. "not worth the money, may as well buy a Tikka, all plastic......" I don't agree. The extra features make it a better gun then a Tikka (have two of those), haven't been able to find another gun as perfect out of the box for a grand, and as far as the plastic thing? Well, if you prefer wood and metal buy another gun, but the plastic works just fine. Remember the plastic pistol that came out in the '80s that everyone laughed at? Exact same comments I have heard about the A7. If it feels, and looks good to you, buy it! You will not be sorry. I also think the .308 is an EXCELLENT choice.

In regards to the Browning? Uh, well......gotta go!
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 08:06 PM

Hate to mention another website but GB has Sako A7's stainless for $565.
Posted by: Duc1198

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 02/28/10 10:04 PM

XBolt, A7, then Kimber. You know the Browning and Sako will shoot. The Kimber is more of a crapshoot.
Posted by: VaHillbilly

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 12:23 AM

I know a guy was just bragging on how good his kimber's are but beware for every guy who brags and blows about how good his Kimber is there's another that's gutting his for being the biggest POS he's ever owned, for this reason I'd stay away from kimber. that being said I bought a new Mod 84 in .308 and had no problems and it shot OK, but wasn't a tack-driver by any means, Kimber is too big a gamble for Me to try another.....I think either of the other two choices would make a superb rifle..............Good luck.....547.
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 04:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Fishinado
I have two A7s, .308 & .300WSM, and four 84Ms, two in .308 (one Little Sky, one in wood), And two high grades in .300WSM.

The A7 is an absolute tack driver, shoots ~2" at 200yds, great trigger, it's my knock around gun. I like it a lot, and would buy another. Same goes for the WSM version.

My 84M Montana is one of my favorite rifles of all time. Shots sub MOA at100yds, great ergonomics, trigger, feel...AWESOME rifle. The wood version is all of the above but not as accurate. The two WSM 84Ms were an absolute nightmare. One had a dangerous head space problem (according to my smith), the other a high spot in the barrel. Both had to be skim bedded and re-crowned. Now both shoot ~well. Would I buy another Kimber? No. I did just buy a Sako 85 Bavarian. Could be my new best friend next to my Blaser!

I've heard some people bashing the A7. "not worth the money, may as well buy a Tikka, all plastic......" I don't agree. The extra features make it a better gun then a Tikka (have two of those), haven't been able to find another gun as perfect out of the box for a grand, and as far as the plastic thing? Well, if you prefer wood and metal buy another gun, but the plastic works just fine. Remember the plastic pistol that came out in the '80s that everyone laughed at? Exact same comments I have heard about the A7. If it feels, and looks good to you, buy it! You will not be sorry. I also think the .308 is an EXCELLENT choice.

In regards to the Browning? Uh, well......gotta go!



I respectfully disagree with all of this. I've owned all 3 and honestly think the Tikka is a better design than the A7. Based on accuracy, weight, handling, fit & finish I rank them like this; X-Bolt, Kimber 84m, Sako A7.
Posted by: Fishinado

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 06:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Horseman
Originally Posted By: Fishinado
I have two A7s, .308 & .300WSM, and four 84Ms, two in .308 (one Little Sky, one in wood), And two high grades in .300WSM.

The A7 is an absolute tack driver, shoots ~2" at 200yds, great trigger, it's my knock around gun. I like it a lot, and would buy another. Same goes for the WSM version.

My 84M Montana is one of my favorite rifles of all time. Shots sub MOA at100yds, great ergonomics, trigger, feel...AWESOME rifle. The wood version is all of the above but not as accurate. The two WSM 84Ms were an absolute nightmare. One had a dangerous head space problem (according to my smith), the other a high spot in the barrel. Both had to be skim bedded and re-crowned. Now both shoot ~well. Would I buy another Kimber? No. I did just buy a Sako 85 Bavarian. Could be my new best friend next to my Blaser!

I've heard some people bashing the A7. "not worth the money, may as well buy a Tikka, all plastic......" I don't agree. The extra features make it a better gun then a Tikka (have two of those), haven't been able to find another gun as perfect out of the box for a grand, and as far as the plastic thing? Well, if you prefer wood and metal buy another gun, but the plastic works just fine. Remember the plastic pistol that came out in the '80s that everyone laughed at? Exact same comments I have heard about the A7. If it feels, and looks good to you, buy it! You will not be sorry. I also think the .308 is an EXCELLENT choice.

In regards to the Browning? Uh, well......gotta go!



I respectfully disagree with all of this. I've owned all 3 and honestly think the Tikka is a better design than the A7.


Really?! Can you please explain what makes the Tikka better than an A7?
Posted by: 264guy

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 08:11 AM

Horseman,

I might be in the market for a new rifle and am considering the A7, X-bolt and the Tikka. I would like to know your thoughts on why you think the Tikka might be the better rifle over the A7. Thanks.
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: SoTexasH
I might have to get a new .308 and I lent a buddy of mine my .308 Tikka SS Laminate .308 and he took his first 3 deer with it. He is presuring me to buy it from me. So what do your think of these 3 options? Or any other ideas..

Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M

I have personaly never had any of them so looking for some others experience.. Thanks..
why carry a heavy rifle in such a light caliber? 5 pounds 4 ounces +scope for the Kimber montana, I like mine, does Browning still use the pot metal trigger guard in the Xbolt?
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 11:02 AM

I think it's aluminum. And chances are, it will shoot circles around that Kimber as well, for less money.

5 lb. rifles can be made to shoot consistently tight groups, Kimber just don't make 'em consistently do that, at least not the ones I've been around.

JM
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: 264guy
Horseman,

I might be in the market for a new rifle and am considering the A7, X-bolt and the Tikka. I would like to know your thoughts on why you think the Tikka might be the better rifle over the A7. Thanks.


OK here goes. The Tikka is actually a very similar action to Sako's premium rifle...the TRG. The angular Tikka action with small loading port is amazingly ridgid for it's weight. The triggers are the same on each and actually is a Tikka design now used on Sako's since Sako mfg's Tikka. The bolt lift is stiff IMO on all 3 lug Sako's. By comparison the Tikka's bolt lift is light and feels as precise as my Stolle Panda BR action that cost $1250 for the action alone. My Tikkas have shot as well or better than my Sakos. Tikkas dominate my clubs factory class 300yd matches even over high dollar Sako 85's. I also prefer the simpler 2 position safety of the Tikka that locks the bolt on safety. The 3 position of the Sakos I find difficult to manipulate in the dark or with gloves on. The A7's plastic bolt handle plug and exposed hollow plastic magazine look cheap to me. A7's are modified versions of the old Sako 75 action and are good guns but when it comes to the details I just prefer the Tikkas. Admittedly I've only owned 1 A7. It shot well around 1" or less groups. But shoot it back to back with a T3 and the T3 feels smoother, more positive, and all 3 of mine shoot better than any Sako I've owned 75's, 85, and A7.

Bottom line they're very similar but I feel the Tikka is a better design in general. The beauty of the T3 is it's dead simple, lightweight, and they shoot like target rifles. If Sako were to put better wood on the T3's and machine the few plastic parts on them I believe they could sell them for the same as the 85's.

This is purely opinion and I'm sure others would disagree.
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 12:50 PM

Being that the going price for both the T3 and the A7 is nearly the same (~$500-$575) then how does that change the calculus?

I've never had an A7 (no lefties) but I did have a T3. I liked many things about the T3 but the one size fits all action is not one of them.

Does the A7 have cartridge specific lengths?

Spare parts like magazines were outrageously priced for my T3 and they are probably the same or higher for the A7.

Mr. Moses sure seems to like the X-Bolt but once again no lefties.
Posted by: OldCenterChurch

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 01:40 PM

The Kimber 84M is a rifle! The other two are firearms! wink

I loath plastic parts on a rifle!

I think Browning's designers moonlight as comic book illustrators!

What in the world is this???:



Posted by: StrayDog

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 02:28 PM

I would keep the Tikka, and let your buddy buy whatever he wants from someone else.
Posted by: Ghostman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 02:37 PM

Originally Posted By: StrayDog
I would keep the Tikka, and let your buddy buy whatever he wants from someone else.


Me too! The laminated stock Tikka's are getting very hard to find. If you decide to sell it to him I'd go with the A7. My A7 in 308 is an absolute tackdriver and will shoot just about any 165 grain bullet into a 5 shot 1/2" group.

Kimbers are hit or miss for accuracy & quality. The X-Bolt is a big improvement over previous A-Bolts but I'm not a Browning fan.
Posted by: 264guy

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 02:51 PM

Thanks Horseman, very persuasive!
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: OldCenterChurch
The Kimber 84M is a rifle! The other two are firearms! wink

I loath plastic parts on a rifle!

I think Browning's designers moonlight as comic book illustrators!

What in the world is this???:





That is a button to lift the bolt handle while leaving the tang safety in the SAFE position. This is actually a pretty clever way to retain the tang safety and still have a locking bolt that's safe to unload. That's the best design of any gun I own.
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 03:20 PM

It ain't plastic either. Try looking at one first.

Better yet, try shooting one. You may find out you can actually shoot a decent group, especially if you have been using Kimbers.. laugh

JM wink
Posted by: M12

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: OldCenterChurch
What in the world is this???:





That is the invisibility button wink
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
I think it's aluminum. And chances are, it will shoot circles around that Kimber as well, for less money.

5 lb. rifles can be made to shoot consistently tight groups, Kimber just don't make 'em consistently do that, at least not the ones I've been around.

JM
My Kimber's shoot good enough for me, 1 inch is good enough and about the best I can do. It's pretty well documented that weight helps with shooting and when you have a heavier rifle like those that Browning produces, its easier to shoot off the bench. I cannot really think of any thing innovative that Browning makes such that it would make me want me to consider one of them. If I could find an older Belgium made BAR in 30-06 and the barrel was good for $500.00 it would be worth it, not so much the new aluminum framed devices where they had to add steel inserts to keep the scope screws from tearing out. I recall that Jeff O was considering one of them and it looked kind of like a cross between an aborted Sasquatch and a Camo-green turd, that's about the most innovation I have seen from Browning...the camo green turd BAR.
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 04:47 PM

The very button you incorrectly called plastic, is an innovation Jimmy. So is the new recoil pad and stock design of the X-Bolt. So is the rotary magazine and last but not least, their new trigger.

Don't be blinded by your bias.

As far as the aluminum recievers in the BLR and BAR, I agree with you, I can't stand that either. Mine are steel.

If folks don't care for Browning, that's cool with me, just wish they would stick to the facts.

Do you consider a 6 lb 11 oz. rifle heavy? I know an 83 yr. old man that hunts with one, not too heavy for him...



JM
Posted by: Fishinado

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Horseman
Originally Posted By: 264guy
Horseman,

I might be in the market for a new rifle and am considering the A7, X-bolt and the Tikka. I would like to know your thoughts on why you think the Tikka might be the better rifle over the A7. Thanks.


OK here goes. The Tikka is actually a very similar action to Sako's premium rifle...the TRG. The angular Tikka action with small loading port is amazingly ridgid for it's weight. The triggers are the same on each and actually is a Tikka design now used on Sako's since Sako mfg's Tikka. The bolt lift is stiff IMO on all 3 lug Sako's. By comparison the Tikka's bolt lift is light and feels as precise as my Stolle Panda BR action that cost $1250 for the action alone. My Tikkas have shot as well or better than my Sakos. Tikkas dominate my clubs factory class 300yd matches even over high dollar Sako 85's. I also prefer the simpler 2 position safety of the Tikka that locks the bolt on safety. The 3 position of the Sakos I find difficult to manipulate in the dark or with gloves on. The A7's plastic bolt handle plug and exposed hollow plastic magazine look cheap to me. A7's are modified versions of the old Sako 75 action and are good guns but when it comes to the details I just prefer the Tikkas. Admittedly I've only owned 1 A7. It shot well around 1" or less groups. But shoot it back to back with a T3 and the T3 feels smoother, more positive, and all 3 of mine shoot better than any Sako I've owned 75's, 85, and A7.

Bottom line they're very similar but I feel the Tikka is a better design in general. The beauty of the T3 is it's dead simple, lightweight, and they shoot like target rifles. If Sako were to put better wood on the T3's and machine the few plastic parts on them I believe they could sell them for the same as the 85's.

This is purely opinion and I'm sure others would disagree.


With all due respect, this is what I know:

The TRG and Tikka are different actions. The TRG is a three lug, the Tikka is two, and the bolt designs are different. The ONLY similarity is the smaller loading port which certainly helps the rigidity of the action.

Bolt lift is a little stiffer on the A7, no issue in my opinion.

The safety is a two position on the A7. There is an added button to work the bolt while on safe. Just like all other Sakos. A welcome feature in my mind.

I happen to like the bolt handle plug on the A7. If you don't, then take it out.

The A7s ARE a modified 75 action. Is there something wrong with that?!

What details do you prefer on the Tikka? I like Tikkas A LOT, but don't think there's a single detail that I prefer. Just me though.

What do you mean by "hollow plastic magazine" on the A7? I'm looking at them both side by side, and the A7 has a design on it and the Tikka's is smooth.

If you just like the "look" of the Tikka, OK, nothing not to like, but, I think it's hard to argue that it's a "better" gun.

The A7 gives you a real recoil lug, not just a washer, a three lug bolt, an action sized to the cartridge, not just one size fits all, weaver type mounts, a magazine with metal lips that can be loaded while in the gun and the new magazine locking system that prevents accidental magazine releases, , the ability to work the bolt with the safety on. Now that the price has come down on the A7, I question the future of Tikka.

Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 07:45 PM

Fishinado, different strokes for different folks. Most of your ?? can be answered by rereading my post.

The point of my post was not to convince you of anything. I was merely stating my opinion after owning all the rifles mentioned and shooting factory class competitions with them.
Posted by: Fishinado

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Horseman
Fishinado, different strokes for different folks. Most of your ?? can be answered by rereading my post.

The point of my post was not to convince you of anything. I was merely stating my opinion after owning all the rifles mentioned and shooting factory class competitions with them.


OK. No problem. Peace!
Posted by: OldCenterChurch

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/01/10 09:00 PM

I never suggested the Browning was made of plastic, though I believe the one I handled had a plastic magazine. The Tikka and A7 are just "short-cut" rifles. Too much plastic on both for me. Brownings just have too many questionable parts and I'm pretty sure they're assembled in Haiti. I could be wrong. Handing down Brownings, Tikkas/A7s, and something nice like the Kimber could be the difference between having your kids keeping the grass cut around your grave or a cardboard box full of ashes forgotten in the tool shed!
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 02:33 AM

That depends on how bright your kid is. If he likes high priced guns that carry a crap shoot guarantee on accuracy, but thinks it's CRF makes him look fashionable, he probably won't be smart enough to run a lawn mower anyway.

If he's a smart fella and you leave him that Kimber, I wouldn't be suprised if your ashes, along with the rifle end up in water off Haiti.. grin

Maybe some poor Haitian can use the barrel as a blow gun, then again, he may not be able to hit anything with it. wink

Giving Old Center a hard time aside, I do like the Kimber rifles and I plan on getting one someday, but I can't understand why the accuracy in those rifles are sometimes hit and miss, no pun intended.

I'm just guessing here, but could it be that the factory pillars are improperly installed on some rifles, preventing the action from fully seating in the bedding? I wouldn't think the quality of the barrel is the culprit. Maybe it's the lighter construction??? I don't know.

For that kind of money and the effort they put into them, there is no reason a greater percentage of those rifles aren't tack drivers IMHO. I believe if they were, most every other make would be an also-ran.

JM
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 03:11 AM

6 pounds 11 ounces is a weighty hunting rifle compared to 5 pounds 4 ounces. That FN owns them and is making them in South Carolina is the only good thing to see in the Browning proposition. For less money a Ruger is more gun and shoots just as well...well unless you just have to have a Platinum White Gold Pimp-medallion in 30-06. It comes with a "grill" and a recording of the general singing "pants on the ground".
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: jimmyp
...well unless you just have to have a Platinum White Gold Pimp-medallion in 30-06. It comes with a "grill" and a recording of the general singing "pants on the ground".


They call that one the "Jimmyp-pimpomatic model". laugh

I see you have not run out of incorrect facts to post, FYI, they are not made in S.C.
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 03:42 AM

not made in SC....you just crushed any regional sympathy I had to muster for the big B... and to think we have a Browning Buckmark on the outhouse toilet seat lid down at the deer lease to show "solidarity" (or not so solidarity if a lot of burrito's and chili) with Browning.
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 04:17 AM

Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
...well unless you just have to have a Platinum White Gold Pimp-medallion in 30-06. It comes with a "grill" and a recording of the general singing "pants on the ground".


They call that one the "Jimmyp-pimpomatic model". laugh

I see you have not run out of incorrect facts to post, FYI, they are not made in S.C.

next time I am in Louisiana let me stop by to see you and you can convince me to buy an X bolt..their 7 pound SS 375 H&H is interesting. smile
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 05:42 AM

Come on by. I got one you can shoot. If I made 'em there are things I would do different, but I've been pleased with mine.

I don't think that .375 would be much fun to shoot.
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 06:04 AM

Any low bolt lift action like the one in the A7 will be slightly harder to lift than a conventional lift bolt action.
This is because the cocking ramp has to be steeper on a low lift action to pull the firing pin cocking piece back the requisite amount.

Lower lift = steeper ramp = harder lift.

Now that A7's are the same price as Tikkas, Fishinado may be right about Tikkas future.
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Any low bolt lift action like the one in the A7 will be slightly harder to lift than a conventional lift bolt action.
This is because the cocking ramp has to be steeper on a low lift action to pull the firing pin cocking piece back the requisite amount.

Lower lift = steeper ramp = harder lift.

Now that A7's are the same price as Tikkas, Fishinado may be right about Tikkas future.


This is generally true. However much can be done with polishing, firing pin spring, and the hardness of the bearing surfaces to affect bolt lift. Tikkas have amazingly light bolt lift for a 2 lug action. My Sako 85 is by far the hardest bolt lift of any I've owned. A lot has to do with the design. The Browning X-Bolt has the same 3 lug design as the Sakos but the bolt lift is much softer, smoother. Guess I just never fell in love with my Sakos.
Posted by: OldCenterChurch

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 08:14 AM

grin wink
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Horseman
Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Any low bolt lift action like the one in the A7 will be slightly harder to lift than a conventional lift bolt action.
This is because the cocking ramp has to be steeper on a low lift action to pull the firing pin cocking piece back the requisite amount.

Lower lift = steeper ramp = harder lift.

Now that A7's are the same price as Tikkas, Fishinado may be right about Tikkas future.


This is generally true. However much can be done with polishing, firing pin spring, and the hardness of the bearing surfaces to affect bolt lift. Tikkas have amazingly light bolt lift for a 2 lug action. My Sako 85 is by far the hardest bolt lift of any I've owned. A lot has to do with the design. The Browning X-Bolt has the same 3 lug design as the Sakos but the bolt lift is much softer, smoother. Guess I just never fell in love with my Sakos.


Perhaps you misunderstood.

The Tikka, being a 2 lug bolt with a higher bolt lift should and does have a lighter lift than a 3 lug low lift SAKO.

The fact is the firing pin has to move the same amount in 67 degrees as it does in 90 degrees. That means the ramp has to be steeper on the 67 degree rifle.
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 10:27 AM

I beleive the force required to cock both rifles is very similar.

The difference is that it occurs higher in the lift of a 2 lug design, giving you more leverage compared with 3 lug designs which essentially starts cocking at the point of lift off.

JM
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 10:36 AM

The late Frank deHaas in his book "Bolt Action Rifles" explained this whole concept.

I don't know of any actions whose cocking ramp is not engaged by the cocking piece immediately upon movement of the bolt. There may be some which have a cocking ramp with a flat portion prior to a steep ramp but I've never seen one.
Posted by: cole_k

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 11:26 AM

IMO, Sakos and Kimbers are over priced at $1200 - $1500. Brownings and Tikki's are also over priced at $700 - $900 for what they are.

Personally, I would by a Ruger. That is what I did.
Posted by: OldCenterChurch

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 11:27 AM

Brownings are good for??: laugh grin cry wink I got too much time today!

Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 11:28 AM

SAKO A7's at $1200 would be wrong but SAKO A7's at $565 seem about right.
Posted by: OldCenterChurch

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 11:34 AM

These new Southern made M70s oughtta be ending this debate!! The Model 70 EW rifles being had between $800-900 should be the death blow to those mentioned.

Hell, I'd rather shoot and miss with a M70 or a Kimber than show up totin' a Tikka and a trophy!!! But, I'm just a good American Southern Boy!! So, .... wink
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: OldCenterChurch
Hell, I'd rather shoot and miss with a M70 or a Kimber than show up totin' a Tikka and a trophy!!! That's just me though!! wink


That's funny!
Posted by: OldCenterChurch

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 11:37 AM

Uggh, I changed it too late!
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Originally Posted By: Horseman
Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Any low bolt lift action like the one in the A7 will be slightly harder to lift than a conventional lift bolt action.
This is because the cocking ramp has to be steeper on a low lift action to pull the firing pin cocking piece back the requisite amount.

Lower lift = steeper ramp = harder lift.

Now that A7's are the same price as Tikkas, Fishinado may be right about Tikkas future.


This is generally true. However much can be done with polishing, firing pin spring, and the hardness of the bearing surfaces to affect bolt lift. Tikkas have amazingly light bolt lift for a 2 lug action. My Sako 85 is by far the hardest bolt lift of any I've owned. A lot has to do with the design. The Browning X-Bolt has the same 3 lug design as the Sakos but the bolt lift is much softer, smoother. Guess I just never fell in love with my Sakos.


Perhaps you misunderstood.

The Tikka, being a 2 lug bolt with a higher bolt lift should and does have a lighter lift than a 3 lug low lift SAKO.

The fact is the firing pin has to move the same amount in 67 degrees as it does in 90 degrees. That means the ramp has to be steeper on the 67 degree rifle.


No I didn't misunderstand...you misunderstood me. I realize a 3 lug has more to overcome in 60 deg compared to a 90deg 2 lug. I was stating not all 2 lugs are the same. A Tikka has a much easier bolt lift than other 2 lug guns like 700's etc. Also the Sako's have a harder bolt lift than other 3 lug guns like the Brownings and Weatherby(nine lug but in sections of 3). My point was there are other factors contributing to bolt lift like polish, hardness, firing pin spring etc. Smiths can even tune the cocking ramp angle to improve bolt lift.
Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 02:27 PM

Originally Posted By: OldCenterChurch

Hell, I'd rather shoot and miss with a M70 or a Kimber than show up totin' a Tikka and a trophy!!! But, I'm just a good American Southern Boy!! So, .... wink


With the Kimber, you would probably get your wish. cry

I just realized why you like Kimbers so much, when you blow a shot, you can blame the gun. wink
Posted by: SamOlson

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 04:39 PM

Just took my A7 for a snow hike. I still like it!
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: SamOlson
Just took my A7 for a snow hike. I still like it!


Did you harpoon anything with it?
Posted by: SamOlson

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Horseman
Originally Posted By: SamOlson
Just took my A7 for a snow hike. I still like it!


Did you harpoon anything with it?




As a matter of fact I did.........(grin)


Posted by: JohnMoses

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 06:10 PM

How did you walk in that?
Posted by: 264guy

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 06:15 PM

Did you shoot it like that, if not, try it and send us a picture!
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 06:17 PM

Hunting the mighty field mouse eh? Looks like snowshoe country.
Posted by: Fishinado

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 07:21 PM

I love this place!
Posted by: SamOlson

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 07:33 PM

Trick photography!

That was just a drift, only about 8-12" on the level.


The A7 is a great deal at under $600.
Posted by: boatammo

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 08:51 PM

Starting to like my A-7 real well. I can't got around the tikka's or the new brownings. I have 5 Kimbers and they all shoot and feed. I guess I'm lucky. if Kimber would have made a 22-250 monTANA I would own it instead of the sako, but the sako is nice and alot more gun than the tikka.
Posted by: Dr_Lou

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/02/10 10:56 PM

Originally Posted By: OldCenterChurch
The Kimber 84M is a rifle! The other two are firearms! wink

I loath plastic parts on a rifle!

I think Browning's designers moonlight as comic book illustrators!

What in the world is this???:



+1 I played with an X Bolt earlier today. What a train wreck!
I

Posted by: VaHillbilly

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/03/10 04:47 AM

Originally Posted By: OldCenterChurch
I could be wrong. Handing down Brownings, Tikkas/A7s, and something nice like the Kimber could be the difference between having your kids keeping the grass cut around your grave or a cardboard box full of ashes forgotten in the tool shed!
Good one CenterChurch!! I laughed out loud when I read this....................547.
Posted by: SoTexasH

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/03/10 05:48 PM

Thanks for all the advise guys. I ended up ordering a Sako A7 SS in .308 today and then ordering a Zeiss Conquest 3-9 x 40 from Cameraland to top it off. My buddy is happy that he is able to buy my Tikka from me..lol
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/03/10 06:09 PM

Sounds like a nice package. The Conquest is outstanding.

Just remember to turn the magnification down if you're gonna shoot field mice like SamOlson.
Posted by: Fishinado

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/03/10 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: SoTexasH
Thanks for all the advise guys. I ended up ordering a Sako A7 SS in .308 today and then ordering a Zeiss Conquest 3-9 x 40 from Cameraland to top it off. My buddy is happy that he is able to buy my Tikka from me..lol


You won't be sorry! Perfect choice of scope as well! Try Warne mounts.
Posted by: VaHillbilly

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 03:35 AM

Great choice, I really like the caliber, I'd add Talley lightweight rings........Enjoy!..............547.
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 03:56 AM

Originally Posted By: SoTexasH
Thanks for all the advise guys. I ended up ordering a Sako A7 SS in .308 today and then ordering a Zeiss Conquest 3-9 x 40 from Cameraland to top it off. My buddy is happy that he is able to buy my Tikka from me..lol


when you get to shoot it post some of your groups and your overall impression of the rifle. Again for such a low mild caliber I am of the opinion that the Kimber montana is the correct weight.
Posted by: nsaqam

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 06:40 AM

Nearly 2 Sako A7's for the price of 1 Kimber Montana changes the calculus just a bit though.
Posted by: FullMetalParka

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: SamOlson
Trick photography!

That was just a drift, only about 8-12" on the level.


To funny! grin
Posted by: thin_man

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 11:25 AM

I hope you'll be working out while you wait on the A7 to arrive. To overcome that hard bolt lift. smile
Congratulations. I'm sure she'll work out great for you.
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: rmpace
I hope you'll be working out while you wait on the A7 to arrive. To overcome that hard bolt lift. smile
Congratulations. I'm sure she'll work out great for you.


Oooohh that burns. Sorry if I offended you by stating fact.
Posted by: thin_man

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 11:39 AM

No offense taken. All in good fun. smile But seriously between my 3 sako's, Weatherby Mark V, and Kimber Montana, I can hardly tell the difference in bolt lift other than the shorter throws.
Posted by: Horseman

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 01:18 PM

Yeah my Sako 85 is stiffer than my 75's or the A7 I used to own. They shortened the bolt handle on the 85 which didn't help matters. I own dozens of different rifles and that 85 is noticeably stiffer than the others. It almost requires a slap to lift when uncocked. Lube/cleaning doesn't help. The only reason it bothers me is it then requires totally taking the rifle down from your face for a quick follow up shot. It's not the end of the world and IMO no rifle is perfect. I have bigger complaints about most of my other rifles.
Posted by: old_willys

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/04/10 03:19 PM

Sold two Tikka's to purchase a 85 Finnlight in 300 WSM (from the campfire classifieds) and a Sako A7 25-06.

Once they get here I will give my comparison of these against my less expensive Tikka's I still have in .270, 30-06 and 35 Whelen.
Posted by: jimmyp

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/05/10 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Nearly 2 Sako A7's for the price of 1 Kimber Montana changes the calculus just a bit though.

not for me
Posted by: Firecookie

Re: Sako A7 Vs. Browning X-Bolt Vs. Kimber 84 M - 03/05/10 09:18 PM

I Just picked up my A7 in 7mm rem mag today!!, It feels beautiful. Comes up to the shoulder very nice!! Can wait to get it to the range! have exams at the moment so cant get there for a week damit!!! mad