Have not heard much about em anymore? Did the RUMs, SAUMs & WSMs take away their spotlight? (not that they had any) Anyone considering one?

MtnHtr

Thats a good question. I to have not heard anything about them in a long time. Must have lost some momentum with the nembies come on board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When Sako started chambering the 7.82 Warbird in the TRG-S I knew that was the rifle for me, but couldn't find one in Alaska, so I bought the next best thing a Remington 300 Ultra Mag, dumped a couple real nice bull moose and a bunch of Sitka Blacktails in Kodiak, the Rum worked just fine but I dreamed of the Warbird and 3500 FPS with 180's.

By chance I ran into Ken (from Wild West Guns) in Anchorage, Alaska. He announced that they were official distributors of Sako Warbirds and Lazzeroni ammo, brass and dies, my 300 Rum was quickly replaced and a good number of Alaska game was taken over the years with the Warbird using 180 grn. Swift A-Frames @ 3470 fps.

Lately I've been playing around with the Accubonds and have reached the goal of 3520 FPS with 180's and less than 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards, I've got the 200 grn. Accubonds speeding slightly over 3300 FPS with similar accuracy. I'll be using the Warbird and the 200's on sheep and all other game this fall.

The problem with the Lazzeroni's is a lot of folks never give them a chance and dump on 'em without ever shooting them or much less ever holding a round in their grubby paws.

My brother bought one also after witnessing the phenomenal accuracy and velocity that the Sako Warbird was capable of,
between the two rifles we've shot far more 1/2 MOA (and less) groups compared to all our other rifles over many years of reloading and shooting, most people I know are avid hunters and shooters who still cannot shoot a single 1/2 MOA group in a lifetime of shooting with a variety of rifles and calibers.

People fret about the "monstrous" recoil the Warbird generates! Huh ?? What recoil!! My little brother is 24 yrs. old weight a few ozs. over 100 lbs., 5 ft. 0 inches "short" ( brain tumor as a child stunted his growth)he routinely dumps bull moose and blacktail deer out past 400 yards every year, before the Warbird he hunted with an 8mm Mag beginning in his early teens. (As have I)
I still cannot understand what all this "recoil" garbage is, Constantly spewed all over the hunting forums with some guys claiming that a 7mm Mag is a real kicker. I've been loading my Dads, other brother and friends 7mm's for many years working up loads based on high velocity and best accuracy with premium bullets, I still have yet to feel any kick from the 7's..

Okay, okay back to the topic of Lazzeroni stuff,

Brass and ammo is extremely expensive compared to the "junk" floating around (WSM's, SAUM's).

That's cool with me, 'cause I prefer to be one of the few who
packs a round totally different from the other hunters in the field or at the shooting range.

Word is John Lazzeroni is developing an all new and faster 30 Cal. round, guess I'll be upgrading soon as it's available.

Oh yeah!, one more thing....
If anyone is considering the Warbird, get it now.... the accuracy and velocity will simply astound you, you'll never go back to those miniature 30 Cals. again. I know I won't trade my Ferrari in for a Yugo..

They must be alive and well.........I mean heck, it sounds like he sold both of 'em.

JimF

It would be interesting to find out more about them such as actual chrongraphed velocities and actual pressures along with any other information.

I am not considering a Lazzeoni at all but to improve things velocity increases are very good way to do it.

From proman1...


A 7mm Mag pushing a 160g bullet to around 3000fps will generate recoil in the region of 22-25 foot-pounds, depending on the weight of the rifle and scope and the specific powder charge. Hardly a big deal to me, considering one of my .45-70 loads generates 48 foot-pounds, but considerably more than a .30-30, 6mm's, most .25's or even 6.5's and most .270 loads. Since most hunters really don't need something a heavy recoiling cartridge, recoil is a legitimate issue. Last January I picked up a nice .257 Roberts and one of the things that impressed me was the seriousness of the cartridge and the lack of recoil - a real joy to shoot. Your 180g bullet at 3500fps will generate around 36-38 foot-pounds.



Junk? I'm not a fan of the WSM's or SAUM's, but they are hardly "junk". Indeed, the WSM's seem to be excellent cartridges. Will either of the two do shat a Lazzeroni does? No. Does that make them "junk"? No.

You probably have a similar opinion of the RUM's but, as for me, I'd take a RUM any day over a Lazzeroni.





You go right ahead and stick with the Lazzeroni creations, and welcome to them. Most other people will correctly come to the conclusion that for 99.99% of shots taken, a .30-06 is perfectly adequate and the WSM's, Win Mags, and RUM's of the world even more. Acordingly, they will choose to forego the additional recoil and expense and probable shorter barrel life of the Lazzeroni.

If shooting heavy recoil cartridges was the measure of a man, I'd get my Remington M700ML muzzlestuffer and start loading it up with 500g bullets and a handful of powder. But recoil tolerance doesn't make the man, character does.

All my shots go through the chronograph and I keep all the targets with the ballistic and reload data together, pretty much keep a good record of all reloads for all my guns.

What I meant by "junk" is that there is zero improvements with the WSM and SAUM cartridges over the 300 Win, 7mm Mag and 270 Win, they ""might"" go a bit faster but not enough to get all excited about, besides you can load the older ones faster with heavier bullets, at least with the 300 Win and 7mm Mag. The shorter action length doesn't make it better.

I do like the 300 RUM though, at least it shows some improvements over the previous 30 cals..
I still have my 300 Rum, but I've had it rebarreled with a 30 inch Hart #7 Varmint bbl and chambered for the 300 Accuracy Arms, ( very similar to the 300 Tomahawk, based on the Rum case "improved)

Performance wise it is nearly identical to the 7.82 Warbird (due to the long bbl) but is a degree more accurate, groups range in 1/4" Moa consistently with 178 grn. Hornady A-Max bullets,
I do not hunt with it , it's my fun gun strictly for long range target shooting.

It seems every time recoil comes into question some folks immediately point out those silly cliche's like ..."recoil tolerance doesn't make a man, character does" among others along the same lines.

I've never made any claims that my magnum tastes somehow elevate me to a higher status among men, to do so is stupid and doesn't prove anything, only shows that those who do feel "more of a man" 'cause they shoot a bigger cartridge, are screwed up in the head same as the guys that drive the big Dodge Rams and act as if they walk on air,(nothing wrong with the truck though).

I shoot what I like, same as anybody else..............

By proman1:


Yup, and that's fine. But you also took it on yourself to belittle other people and their choices.

These were your words, not mine:
"grubby paws"
"recoil garbage"
"spewed"
"junk"
"miniature 30 cals"
"Yugo"


Seems to me your post would have been a lot better without the disrespect.

PMan,

Do you really have a high powered rifle that shoots 1/4 inch groups? I believe a .30 caliber bullet is bigger than the group you mentioned(unless all the rounds are through the same hole- and then that hole is STILL bigger than 1/4 inch).

I enjoyed your passion, but let's be truthful here. It's like saying I shot a 1/4 group with my .45-70.

I doesn't mater the dia of bullet - when you measure the group - you find the largest spread and subtract your bullet dia to give group size. (thats the standard way I was taught anyway)

Thats how a 6 PPC can shoot a .125 group. As to the ability of the rifle - I don't know just clearing up how it is possible for a 30 or even a 458 cal rifle to shoot a group smaller than bullet diameter.

Teal,

You are right, of course. Instead of being sarcastic, I should be asking what his bench shooting set up is to get 1/4 inch groups with a hunting rifle.

Of course, once I shot one such group, anytime I did not would probably drive me crazy.

The bulk of Lazzaroni's market was already taken up by Weatherby, as well as the newer RUM's. People complain about the cost of Weatherby ammo, but the Lazzaroni stuff is extremely expensive, and brass very difficult to obtain. Also loading dies. When all is said and done, Lazzaroni just isn't worth the hassle and expense. The gain is total diminishining returns. Too much so. Their great rounds, and perform well, but way too costly. Kind of an oddity. I've never seen a box of ammo or brass, let alone a rifle in any shop here in Arizona, and here is where their made. Bill T.

Cabela's in Hamburg, PA has Lazzeroni ammo in some caliber or other. It's $99.95 a box of 20.

Again the specifics of how the velocity is obtained. As someone said when listening to a sales pitch "what am I giving up?"

Proman1 cannot understand why someone thinks a particular rifle kicks a lot and he drives a Ferrari! Heck some people have more ability than others. Proman maybe be one of those. Then maybe it's something else.

A neighbor of mine has an early 20-something daughter who gets off on heavy recoil. Three rounds through his #1 .458 and she's ready for a cigarette....

THAT"S something else to watch, by golly...


Combo

As a native Central Pennsylvanian, I grew up with a 300 Savage. My Step Dad, a Native American, taught me how to hunt....
Don

If they became extinct for no other reason other than what they charge for their ammunition - I think it would be a case of "the people having spoken" and a kind of poetic justice served to a company that feels it's smart business to sell people rifles and then gouge them mercelessly on the ammuntition.

Besides, who really needs four times the barrel wear, three times the recoil and twice the powder consumed - all to produce a cartridge that shoots 4 inches flatter than a "standard" cartridge - when shot at big game a quarter mile away - a difference that no man in the field will ever be able to notice.

Coyote Hunter,
The statements I made were my feelings on the subject at hand, they weren't posted to offend anybody, If you feel offended, then I sincerely apologize.. But to use a few words out of context from my posts is simply inane..

Let me explain the choice of my words..

"grubby paws" one who hasn't shot it or seen it, but disses it

"recoil garbage" simply put, it's not that bad, what's the problem?

"spewed" constant griping about cartridges that have a bit of a thump but usually about one they do not own and shoot

"junk" I admit I shouldn't have used that word, I should've said "stuff", ya got me on that one, sorry!

"miniature 30 cals" short, fat ..basically anything smaller and slower

"Yugo" side by side comparison based on my opinion only and we all have those.

I hope this will clear things up for all.

Gator,

I get that all the time, high powered hunting rifles aren't supposed to shoot tiny groups, a lot of people say it isn't possible. I guess me and my 'Bro stumbled on a couple rifles out of hundreds that do shoot well.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My reloading practices involve techniques used by the top shooters in the accuracy game. I spend countless hours tweaking the brass to accomplish concentric and identical rounds. Too much details to put here, there are many books written on this subject.

Here is what a 1/4" and 1/2" group look like, when fired with my "accursed" 7.82 Warbird with 180 grn. Accubonds @ 3520 fps.

proman1 -



I don't feel offended, but I would have enjoyed your post much more if you had simply extolled the virtues of the Lazzeroni cartridges of your choice and forgone the various terms I mentioned - each and every one of which was perjorative in one way or another.



For example, I have never seen a Lazzeroni, but I can confidently say I will never choose to own one and I can give good reasons why. Personally, I think they are way too expensive to own and shoot considering the marginal benefits they provide and the real drawbacks one must live with (scarcity of brass, scarcity of load data, scarcity of factory ammo, relatively short barrel life, higher powder consumption, limited resale market, and, yes, recoil). Guess that makes me a "grubby paws" person? No.



This morning I went to the range and was shooting at the 100/200 yard line. When I got to the .45-70 I started out with 350g hardcast at 1097fps and around 7 foot-pounds recoil. These are a joy to shoot at the 50 yard line, but the rear sight wouldn't elevate enough to get them on a clay pigeon at 100 yards. These loads will penetrate at least 5 water jugs, but recoil is so low that even my wife and Daughter #2 will shoot them. Next up were several loads in the 30-40 foot-pound range. Most people I know don't care to shoot these because they consider recoil to be severe. At the top of the recoil heap was my "Rhino Blaster" load, a 460g hardcast at 1812fps and 48 foot-pounds recoil, which makes your Lazzeroni look pretty tame in comparison. This load will certainly wake you up, but "it's not that bad" as you say, at least as far as I'm concerned (I've shot worse). Nevertheless, everyone I've offered to let shoot them has politely declined. What's the problem? The problem is that various people have various levels of recoil tolerance. Call it "recoil garbage" if you want, but it is a real concern for most shooters. Most game in North America can be cleanly taken with loads that generate recoil in the 14-25 foot-pound range, and most hunters their weapons accordingly. Many fiind the recoil of a .30-06 to be "excessive", and that is only in the 22-24 foot-pound range. "Recoil garbage"? No, just a simple recognition of basic truths.



The term "spewed" is suffficiently perjorative that I think no more explanation is needed.



Ditto with "junk", although you apologized for that one.



To me a "miniature .30 cal" is a .30 Carbine or 7.62x39 or maybe even a .300 Savage, but it hardly seems to fit anything from the .30-06 or up. Unless the land of the .30's is populated with all "miniatures" and one "giant size". No middle ground? Once again, unnecessarily perjorative.



One reason the Yugo's didn't last in the US market was their low quality. There is nothing inherently low quality about the .308, .30-06, WSM's RUM's, or other .300's. Slower than the Lazzeroni? Sure. Capable of the same accuracy? Yes. More than sufficient for most hunting needs? Again, yes.



I'm glad you got an accurate rifle/load combination and are having fun shooting it, but let's face it - if everyone needed what only the Lazzeroni's can do, you would see them in every gun shop.

Wish I could stay and discuss this some more but I'm headed to the range to test the 200 Grn. Accubond. This time around I'm shooting them into water filled milk jugs.

I'll also be shooting my friends 300 RUM and his brother in laws 300 WBY. Sighting in for moose season, they have no time so I do it for them, they offer $ I refuse, they insist, I say buy me 1 box of Accubonds and we're cool.. Will be shooting 20 rnds of each, then about 20 rnds. from my 500 S&W through a chronograph, expect 1600 fps with 440 Grn. hard cast bullets. Previous load was on the slow side with 1540 fps, needs more powder to make it shine.

Anyway... My problem is I've been shooting big cased cartridges and nothing else for the last few years (Warbird, 300 RUM, 8MM Mag)
All the others look tiny to me.

I'm not gonna touch most of the stuff in this thread, but I will say that I spoke to John Lazzeroni and he confirmed he's working on a new .30 caliber that will push a 180gr bullet over the 4000fps mark.

I have wanted a Warbird for a number of years. I eventually purchased a .300Rum but I still want a Warbird. I can't give you a logical answer to why I do I just do. I guess that makes me a rifle loony!

What'll he call it?....a .300 Swift?

seems to me that if you need more power than a 300 win mag, move up in caliber, ie 338 win mag or larger. if it is really a matter of trying to kill an elk at 500 yards, well, that's a different subject. as far as lazzeroni goes, cool stuff but the rifles and cartridges do not do anthing that can not already be done with non-lazzeroni cartridges. the last lazzeroni 30 cal that exceeded the 4000k mark was with a 130 gr bullet so it will be interesting to see how he does it with a larger bullet. I am sure it will be "lubricated" as he call it.

Brent,

Is that you? I think the reason most folks don't go for the Lazaroni is most folks don't put in the trigger time to take advantage of what it offers. As a matter of fact, the majority of the folks can't even shoot a 300 win mag to it's potential, so more speed to flatten trajectory, with the accompanied recoil and expense to get the speed is of no use to them.

I think the Lazaroni is a like a Ferarri. Most folks can't afford them. Of those that can afford them, most don't get them because of how fast they can go, but so that they can brag about them.

You are the rare shooter that can shoot well enough to take advatage of the guns long range potential.

Weren't you planning on a 500 Jeffrey? Any range results?

Very nice groups!

Which powder and grain weight are you using, if I might ask? I have a Sako TRG-S in the Warbird caliber. I've not shot it much due to being laid up with surgery. I loaded about ten loading up with Barnes Triple Shock 180's and RL25 quite some time ago (February). I have only made it through half of them and all so far have given me about 1" groups, but then the gun is not broke in yet and my experience has been that modern magmum guns/powders tend to shoot best towards the top of the chart. I have not shot the hotter loads yet but no pressure signs at this point and I would not have expected any yet at least. My rifle has an IOR 4.5X14 scope with the MP-8 reticle on it. I think I will like it.

I did get a chance to take a pig with it in Texas early in the Spring. Not much of a challenge at 75 yards. The two other hogs I shot with my S&W 500 were much more fun!

Good hunting!

458Lott -

I think your second reason, cost, is closer to the truth. That and they simply don't need them, so why pay a premium when a Ruger/Sin/Rem/Savage/Howa/Whatever in .308/.30-06/.300 Win Mag/Whatever will do just as well for their needs?

.

Ricky D,

I see you have a 500 S&W, aren't they fun to shoot!!!
My fave load consists of 440 grn. Cast Performance Hard Cast with 40 Grns. Lil' Gun and it's a blast to shoot, could use a bit more powder to achieve top velocities, have a series of loaded rounds up to 44 grns., will be testing this Sunday, can hardly wait. Trying to find a good hard cast bullet in the 500 grn. weight which will be about optimum with a full charge of Lil' Gun, thinking of having a custom LBT style mould made and cast my own to do more shooting, local gun shop can't seem to keep enough in stock for me.

As for the Warbird, I'm using 106 grns of RL 25 for the 180 grn. Accubonds for a velocity of 3520 fps.
For the 200 Grn Accubonds I'm stuffing the cases with 102 grns. of rl 25 for 3300 fps. Did load up to a 10 shot ave. of 3385 fps but ran into slightly flattened primers and groups started to suck too opening to a lousy 1 inch from the normal 1/2 " with 3300 fps.

**Note**
You will not be able to use this load data unless you coat your bullets with Tungsten Disulfide, which is what I do to all my bullets.. Follow John Lazzeroni's load data from his web page for uncoated bullets.

Proman,

Thanks for the info. I may make it out this weekend after a very long hiatus from the range. Surgery sucks!

I have yet to load for my 500. I think I will center my loads around Barnes 285 and 325 grain loads. The 325's look like fat missles! I've shot some 440's and can't thnik of an application for them apart from armored vehicle interdiction, and I am not an interdicter. Besides they hurt.....me!ha ha.

Thanks again and good hunting!

Proman,

First, I must express some skepticism about your ability to shoot 0.25" or 0.50" groups at 100 yards with a 7.82 Warbird in an 8 to 10 pound hunting weight rifle. I do not believe it is possible to do so consistently. You do. I don't.

Second there is the matter of recoil. It is virtually impossible to shoot a 300 Weatherby with the same accuracy as a .308 Winchester because of all the extra leaping, blasting, and torquing of the heavy recoiling cartridge. The Lazzeroni is much worse. MUCH worse. This is simply physics. A 180 grain bullet and 80 grains of powder at 3100 fps is a pussycat compared to the same bullet and 106 grains of powder at 3550 fps. Flinch city occurs. This is one reason why NOBODY who is serious about long range target shooting at 800, 900, or 1000 yards uses the Lazzeroni (or Weatherby, BTW). Popular cartridges are the 6.5-284, 6mm-XC, etc.

Then there is barrel wear. A 6.5-284 is good for maybe 1000 shots. A .308 Winchester in excess of 3000 to 5000. The Warbird? 500 shots is probably stretching it. How much practice can occur, even if you ignore the $5.00 per shot part?

I think the Lazzeroni cartridges will die out for the simple reason that hitting game animals at 400 years is easier with a .270 than with a 7.82mm Warbird for the above reasons. There have been a lot of other "odd" magnum cartridges like the Newtons, Bob Hutton's in the 1960s, the 7X61 Sharpe and Hart, Howell's, revolver cartridges like the .401 Herter, and others. Most of their advantages are marginal or non-existent. Unless they are pushed by a major manufacturer, they die.

Excellent groups. Do they kill any better at 300 yards than 1.25 or 1.50 or 2.0 groups? And why are you shooting at 300 yards or longer? ( I do, but only if I have a really good excuse!)



Accuracy is to be desired. Obsession is suspect. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



On the other hand, " Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess" (Lazarus Long in "Time Enough For Love" by Robert Heinlein)



Also, "Everything in modertion, including moderation")

You guys crack me up,

weak kneed huh??Then Keep playing with your 270.



Why does it bother you guys that I like the Warbird???

My wife shoots it and says it ain't so bad, do any of you have any experience at all with the Warbirds .

Hey, if those guys get to you, I'll take it off your hands, if the price is right, and promise I'll put 5, 6 rounds a year tru it if you give me your loading data.



That's about what I do with my .338 Win Mag Ruger 77. "moose rifle". Haven't missed a moose yet, over a decade or more of use.

Proman,

I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone has an opinion, the question is from what data they draw one from ?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Usually the people who pooh pooh on the big magnums never had any experience with one.

Anyway, I am also a magnum fan, here are mine : 338RUM, 300RUM, 300WIN, 270WSM, 7mm Mag, 7STW, 7RUM. My buddy 163bc has the same, plus a 300 Jarret and a 338 Win. They all shoot sub-moa and on a good day, the operator can keep them in nice tidy clusters.

Frankly, I enjoy shooting them and do so often. I have posted many groups shot with them and will invite anyone who cares to show up at my gun club shooting a non-magnum, to sling a few down range for a friendly competition.

Tony.

I have never owned a Warbird. I do hunt with a 300 Weatherby UltraLightweight. The reason I'm skeptical about owning a Warbird, aside from obsolescence risk, is that it has been my experience that most owners of magnums are very poor shots under field conditions. (I obviously have no knowledge of you or your wife in this regard.) A Warbird only makes this worse.

Also, as a high power match shooter, my friends and I each shoot more shots, at certain seasons, in a week than you can shoot with a Warbird and still have a barrel. It is a FACT--not an opinion--that a skilled rifle shot can shoot a .308 or .223 far, far more accurately than an "eargeschplittenloudenboomer." Recoil matters.

And it's all relative. If I shoot a 20-shot prone match with my 16-pound .308, I will shoot a better score with Sierra 155s than with Sierra 190s, even though the latter are better on paper for wind deflection.

So what does the Warbird offer? Very little? If you want to play with one, that's fine. But the reason why it isn't more popular is pretty obvious.

Indy,

If you are unable to handle a 300 Wby then definately keep away from the Warbird and shoot the little 308 Win., sounds like it should be just right for ya!!

It never stops does it , some schmuck reads or hears about a cartridge and becomes the expert on it. You need to fire it over 1000 times first then tell me how bad the recoil is , I have and I insist it isn't that bad, period.

Another dumbazz remark is that the Warbird has very little to offer, how can you say that when the Warbird has velocity and energy out to 500 yards what the puny 308 Win. has at the muzzle!!

Obviously someone needs to to their homework and have mommy check it first....

Well, I've only seen one poster who used a Lazz, but so far you are 100% correct.





See below.

I thought that this question was a real good one for the forum to ponder. It had a lot of potential for new information and spirited discussion.

What we got is the start of a discussion and then the degeneration into a spitting contest. Is it full moon or is this some testosterone disruption period? Geez, come on fellas! What happed to the exchange of information and good discussions?

proman,

I was technically on your side in support of the Warbird. But man, your choice of name calling and verbage designed to elicit more combative posts is just plain wrong. I can understand the zeal and excitement of loving a particular cartridge or rifle but not to the exclusion of at least trying to be decent about it. I know you're being attacked unfairly, just because of a cartridge choice, but rise to occasion and show facts and sound opinions not this contentiousness, please.

IndyCA35,

And you're just the opposite, trying to be all rational and logical but basing all of your comments on opinions which you expect us to take a fact. Get over it.

Highpower does not qualify you to be an expert on all other forms of target shooting. You need to do a little checking before making statements such as you posted. Go to the 1,000 yard Benchrest websites and look at the match results. They list the equipment and the CARTRIDGES used in each relay of every match. The big .30 cals. outnumber the mid-size cartridges and the big ones are in the winner's circle more often, beating out the mid-size .308's and the smaller 6.5's and 22 calibers. And yes, they ARE shooting the .300 Weatherby in competition and some are winning. There are even pictures to prove it. There are even a couple of shooters using the .338 Lapua.

Recoil smecoil, it's all relative as to what an individual can handle. I've watched guys shoot very tiny groups using .470 Nitro Express double rifles. I can't, but they certainly can. I've also watched folks that can't control a 22-250 for any kind of accuracy, at all. Too much recoil. It's the individual.

I am amazed at the targets proman has shown us. That is quite an accomplishment! The reason that I don't doubt him is that I've been present when similar targets have been shot with Warbirds and not just at 100 yards either. Some of these rifles have incredible accuracy capabilities if the shooter and the loads are up to it.

proman even posted targets and you try to counter with "I do not believe it is possible to do so consistently." Well good for you! How many targets does he have to post to satisfy you? 10, 20, 50? Where's the cutoff point?

I'm tracking barrel wear on 3 Warbirds right now. They were all built with barrels from different manufacturers with different rifling styles; cut and button tradition groove and one done in polygonal button. They all have over 1,000 rounds through each of them and the accuracy level has yet to fall off.

You don't like the Warbird, that's great. You don't think that it's going to last, that's your opinion. But others may disagree. I happen to like oddball cartridges and the ones that others label as "lost causes". Wildcats are the best, but they aren't for everyone, I know that. It's my business to invest my money in my rifles to accomplish whatever I deem necessary or desirable. But we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Best of luck!

Nononsense,



I agree with you, my recent posts were uncalled for and I should have chosen my words with care, I apologize to all who have visited this thread and posted on this subject.



I was trying to explain my point of view and experience with this cartridge and what it is capable of, but got sidetracked.



You have just made the point I was trying to put across with the whole magnum thing, they are not uncontrollable and some shooters do shoot them as accurately as smaller caliber cartridges.



I want to make a few things clear with my last post on this thread, while I do hunt and adore the Warbird it is by far not my favorite! Yes it is my most accurate "hunting gun" in my collection of guns, but probably because I have spent the most time with it in recent years. Developing loads with all the slowest powders and the best bullets I could get my hands on, bullets of the premium controlled expansion type designed for hunting, I do not compete or use any of the target type bullets. The accuracy I get with Swift A-Frame bullets and Nosler Accubonds is plenty enough for my needs, the targets I posted here and in other places were all shot with witnesses and I do not need to dwell on the subject of who believes what.



The cartridge that I hold as favorite would be the 300 Winchester Mag. with the 6.5X55 Swede a close contender.



The Warbird may fade into the dust as the years go by but I will have the fondest memories messing around and hunting with it. Some of my best and most exciting trips were with this controversial round, yet with all the supposed excessive recoil and uncontrollability I have never missed or lost a single animal to date. To describe the effect it has on moose is simple instantaneous death, the bulls I've taken never moved more than a couple of steps, or required a second shot, with several at closer yardages reacting as if flattened by a locomotive. That also might be the combination of accuracy and energy, when I take the shot I have 100% confidence as to were it went.



One poster asked the question if 1/2" groups kill better than 1 1/2", I'll have to say they do, last year I dropped a spike bull moose with the only shot I could get, he was in the brush feeding and facing in my direction, I had confirmed he was a legal bull after glassing for a few minutes and was waiting for him to turn and offer me a broadside vital shot, several cows got spooked by a passing ATV and the small bull looked ready to bolt, I had my crosshairs trained on his forehead and calmly squeezed the trigger, he dissapeared and I didn't concern myself with looking for a running animal, he was down and out. Believe me I would have never attempted such a risky shot if I didn't have the ultimate confidence in my rifle and ability to take that shot.



My friends and family all claim that I spend far too much time at the loading bench, shooting range, out scouting and hunting, well that maybe so but I also have a freezer full every season.



One more thought to ponder, the targets that I posted here are the best groups I shot with the Warbird on a calm warm day with no caffiene intake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The best part of those groups is that I broke the 1000 round mark with that barrel, yet the best groups and highest velocity were afforded that day.. I guess actual experience wins over assumptions and predictions, at least in this case..



I bid all a good day and good luck in your forays into the wilderness.

nononsense,

I am well aware of 1000 yard benchrest. I am talking about rifles whose weight you can actually hold up (don't you have to do that with hunting rifles?

While on the subject of benchrest, why don't the 100 yard shooters shoot 30 calibers? Because it's a FACT--not my opinion--that the lower the recoil, the better the accuracy, all things considered.

This has nothing to do with whether or not you can "handle" the recoil.

The reason I'm a bit testy is I think proman and his groups are phony (made up). Perhaps that's because of the language he used.

I also don't think that a 3500 fps rifle will hold its accuracy for 1000 rounds. Sorry but it just does not work that way.

OK, that's enough of that.

Why don't YOU think the Lazzaronies are so unpopular if they "don't recoil" and shoot 0.25" groups?

Guys,

I knew I could do it. As I keep all my targets during 1 season, I found 2 that were around 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

Proman, I guess my 'little '06 can match your Lazz.

All kidding aside, if you love your rifle/round, ain't no way what anyone says here should change that. We all get a little "pumped up" this time of year, and the computer is very unforgiving as far as tone of voice, personality, etc.

Gator

Proman, id be willing to bet if i loaded my 338 Lapua improved with the 180 grain bullets that are offered id get damned close to 3500 out of it. Have chornyied 200's at 3400.

Guys,

shoot what you want. Kill game with it.



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Just don't tell others what "you" are using is 100x better than what "they" are using.


MANY calibers kill game. As always, shot placement remains #1.






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BY FAR.