If you had an 18 or 20 inch barreled smooth bore shotgun that you will not shoot anything but 00 buck out of (due to policy, work gun not a hunting gun), would you bother with rifle sights? I noticed all of our shotguns at work have rifle sights and are supposedly required to by policy. But, most of the guys who make decisions about our firearms have proven to be less than savvy in the past.

When I asked the question, the answer I got was because you can't hit anything with buck shot if you use a bead. I was confused because I hit things all of the time using several types of shot. Remarkably, I was using a bead. The instructor I was talking to said that all shotguns will shoot high when using a bead with buck shot. I asked whether this was because of the bead or poor gun fit and poorly trained officers.

So, have I just been hitting things on accident with my bead or do ALL shotguns really shoot high using buck shot when aiming with a bead? He kept quoting his "experience" and I kept quoting my qualification scores. Seems like scores should trump experience, especially bad experience.

I schitt you not, this was my response to him when he made the comment about beads shooting high/sights, "Guessin' ain't doin' and your "training" ain't never not funny to behold, especially with the goat [bleep] you give with the simplest wares. Bless your Heart."

If only he got it.....

when using a bead, your head/eye position becomes the "rear sight"...

if the weapon fits poorly or the shooter fails to get his eye/head down into the proper position he will likely shoot high with anything...

I can use either but prefer the rifle sights.

My shotgun bbls have a vent rib and the first thing I usually do is have a mid bead installed if it already dont.

I shot some 3 1/2" mag buckshot just the other day (holy crap! ) and it shoots great to about 50 yds.....I had a cylinder bore choke tube installed, I imagine if I had a tighter one it would do better.

We cant use buckshot in Indiana but I was checking it out for Coyotes.

Your instructor is full of [bleep]. I use my vent ribbed, twin beaded shotgun for predator hunting with #4 buckshot loads. It patterns to point of aim and nothing is faster to put a charge of any size shot on target than a good fitting shotgun with bead sights.

Jeff Cooper and Lewis Awerbuck prefer ghost-ring sights for buckshot and particularly for slugs. Most 3-gun shooters run a fiber optic "turkey" sight on top of a vent rib. Try and see what works for you.

I'm thinking that if you use "sights" at all with a shotgun (except slugs).....you are doing something wrong. Doesn't matter whether it's rifle type sights, bead, double bead or whatever....a shotgun should be pointed, not aimed. Of course that would require practice and training, which seem in short supply where you are working.

Your instructor is an idiot. Slugs will shoot high with just a bead sight, but you won't have a problem with buckshot. Were I only running buckshot I'd only have a bead. If you are running slugs I would want sights or ghost rings.

Thank you, shows more than a little shotgun knowledge. Stationary targets, a bead will not hurt you. Moving targets? If one must have one make it tiny. Middle bead on moving targets is the equivalent of tits on a bull.

Old wives tales die hard. Many shotgunners believe they don't use or even see their shotgun beads when shooting at moving targets but removing them has proven that the majority break/kill far fewer targets when the beads are not there.

No Bat, it shows "bird gun" knowledge. From the guy's first post, he is LE. Being the subject of a lawsuit 'cause one of your buckshot pellets hit some pregnant chick in the gut across a parking lot ain't something to look forward to. A cop is better off with ghost ring sights that can be zeroed and quantified to have a reliable pattern out to a certain range with the issued ammo. If you have to shoot farther, then slugs are in order.

Bullsheet dies even harder.

But don't waste your time believing me. Look up the works of a couple fellows who knew/know there way around shotguns. I.E. Robert Churchill, Michael McIntosh, Bob Brister. There are a bunch of others, but if you don't want to believe those three, then go on being at best an average shotgun user. Means little to me.

Agree, bird gun use and Law Enforcement use have different parameters. Ghost rings shouldn't slow one down all that much.

It was one of the "shotgun experts" who did the test and wrote the article describing his findings that most shooters broke fewer targets when the beads were removed from their shotguns. And you really shouldn't assume too much about the shooting skills of people you don't know anything about.

Two beads for wingshooting is as big a goat [bleep] as can be had. Agreed on stationary targets. My TURKEY rig is a two bead setup and notice I emphasized TURKEY.

Should be interesting reading. Who and where may I find this article?

I don't know the answer to your question as the extent of my shotgunning has been birds/clays with a bead/beads.

However, the quote above is funny as schit.

Agree with Turkey it is no problem and is an advantage while they are on the ground and moving slow.

Once things start flying or moving fast, then lead is more feeling than a visual measurement away from a bead.

Then the beads shouldn't get in your way or slow you down !

Hint: they don't if I don't look at them, but if they are there I might, and if they are not there I can't. I'm guessing you would drive better with a hood ornament?

Still waiting for that reference

See, this is the troubling thing. If it was about liability, then the plaintiff could also say there was no reason to miss because there were zeroed sights.

My agency has the philosophy that the shotgun should only be used out to a maximum of 30 yards. At that point, you must use your rifle to engage a threat. To me, it contradicts the requirement for sights on the shotgun because we aren't supposed to engage anything beyond a certain distance with the shotgun. We actually practice from farther away with the pistol than the shotgun for this reason.

I think the whole "shoots high when you use a bead thing" is because the training is so piss-poor. Most of the people I work with, especially the females, are so afraid of the shotgun they won't suck it in, get a good cheek weld. Their head is then too high. They still see the bead and they shoot anyway without their face being low enough to see the true plane of the barrel and outgoing shot.

But, the instructor isn't willing to listen to logic, experience, and someone who actually hits the targets.

I read the damned article years ago and don't have the month, year and magazine committed to photographic memory. I drive pretty good with a hood ornament and shoot pretty damn good with beads on my shotguns. Sounds like you have a problem with target concentration.

Dan, your "instructor" needs to attend a three-day shotgun course from Randy Cain or Lewis Awerbuck. Then he needs to go to Elijay and pass the Rogers shooting course. If he can't pass the latter he has no business as a firearms trainer. They shoot steel in the afternoons at the Rogers school with 9mm AR's and shotguns.

Why am I not surprised?

Target concentration is the bane of most of us and one of the reasons I take beads off my shotguns. However, since you are pretty damn good with a shotgun, I'm curious. So, outside of the above mentioned stationary target situations, just how do you use shotgun beads to advantage on flying targets?

I'm always willing to learn from the damn good and great.

I figured you were gullible enough that you actually did remove the beads from your shotguns because some "shotgun expert" said you'd be able to shoot better without them. I don't really look at the bead on a flying target but it does register in your peripheral vision and is used subconsciously as a frame of reference to muzzle position in relation to target.

Have to admit that subconscious stuff works with the easy and intermediate oopportunities. Actually there is nothing subconcious about it.

Then again if you don't really look at the bead why do you need one? The end of the barrel will serve the same purpose.

You ever had tunnel vision on a flying target? Where all you see is target and things are in slow motion, and you actually see the effect of pellets striking feathers. If so I would be interested in a descripiton.

You use the term shotgun expert very loosly. Mine have names, some of which I have already given you. Still waiting for yours.

I'm fairly certain that Blackheart is likely one of those individuals who can't hit the side of a barn with a shotgun (without a "bead"). However WITH a bead....and much concintration...he probably Can hit the side of a barn. He has no idea exactlt WHERE on the barn he will hit, but can do it if he has sights (bead).

Of course that is only true as long as the barn isn't moving. If a target is moving, even with sights, you won't hit very well unless you practice a bit......and then you won't NEED sights!

What a dipschitt. I bet I do more small game and upland bird hunting than you and battue combined and have been doing so since the early 70's. I've kept beagles for rabbit hunting ever since then and for many years would shoot between 100 and 150 from in front of the dogs every season. After all that practice, hitting rabbits on the run with a shotgun is so easy it's almost boring. Of course, I've also killed plenty of grouse and woodcock as incidentals while spending all that time afield with my hounds and used to hunt pheasants pretty avidly as well. I don't shoot many clay pigeons anymore but the last time I shot a round of trap at the club I broke 24/25. I know how to handle a shotgun very well thanks.

Well I'll probably get 30+ days of Grouse hunting in this year, Lord willing. So far this spring and summer I've gone through approximately 10,000 shotgun shells which is pretty much on average of the last 15 years or so.

I really should be better than I am, but I will always have you to look up to for guidence. Don't know why I wasted my time with all those other unknowns all these years.

Maybe a months supply when things are slow.

The actual answer will depend on the style/model of shotgun and barrel.. If you use just a bead on a Browning A-5's barrel w/o rib, you'll shoot high every time.. If you use a bead on a Remington shotgun that has a barrel with vented rib, you'll most likely be ok.. It has to do with the height of the comb on the stock, coupled with the receiver height measured against the height of the bead from the top of the muzzle..

If you see your shotguns bead, you're looking at the wrong stuff. Save the sights for shooting slugs...at long distances.

That does it, I'm going to have to do a 00 Buck range report using my smooth bore with sights and smooth bore with bead. If anything, I think using the sights slows me down. Maybe even the bead as well.